Incredible moment. I don't collect framed pages like some of the guys in the comics OT, but if I did, this would be the one I want. One of the things that cemented her as my favorite. <333 Kitty
Marvels Secret Wars by Hickman & Ribic |OT| Everything ends... Everything begins
- Thread starter Mudcrab
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Incredible moment. I don't collect framed pages like some of the guys in the comics OT, but if I did, this would be the one I want. One of the things that cemented her as my favorite. <333 Kitty
excelsiorlef
Member
Re-reading it, it's also just a solid monologue, like it wouldn't be out of place in a plaay or a movie. It's good writing and not just good comic book writing.
I'm an acting student I might try to see if I can turn it into a stage monologue
He is in that moment, but I still think he's a pretty thoughtful dude and our best bet for who gets to write the series first post-SW.
Couldn't agree more. I hadn't even read Alex' speech yet at that point, so it may as well not even matter. You should try to perform it! I was a theater kid in HS and pretty serious too. Good luck to you with that. It's a good idea.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
I know I haven't been alone in championing this for a long, long time. Hating Muties makes more sense in a world where the FF and Avengers aren't worshiped. I hope these rumors are true.
Yea, this was amazing. We may give Bendis shit from time to time, but when he nails something he can be almost perfect.
You have to keep in mind that for every Avenger there's like 7 super-powered bad guys and 12 people who just go out of control because they can't control their powers. In that light mutants being hated makes sense, from the public's perspective the odds are better they'll go bad our out of control. Plus people just hate for no reason, it just doesn't make sense and trying to apply logic to hate always leads to a headache and heartbreak.
excelsiorlef
Member
I think what worries many is that it would be a world of just mutants. Like that would defeat the point of the X-Men, it needs to be a world of humans and mutants. I'm just apprehensive now because I don't want it done in such a way that this new world is where they always were, as in I don't want X-men rebooted and I guess I just dunno how you do that without a reboot. Unless you have all the mutants land on a Earth like planet but then they become aliens and that's a different metaphor all together.
Dunno. I wish we could see it though, it'd be fascinating, mutants saving the world but being hated for it despite being the only ones capable of actually saving people (on a great scale obviously). A Mangeto there would be the best fucking character ever
excelsiorlef
Member
Yeah but here are a ton of super powered non mutant super powered bad guys, but folks don't use them as an excuse to hate Captain America or the Fantastic Four.
Honestly I think having a world were the FF and Avengers are worshipped makes complete sense. I mean think of America how back in the 80s (and even now) Black Americans are hated, but there are still many that are worshipped and celebrated by the masses. Kinda like how many republicans absolutely love Ben Carson (and Herbert Cain) but overall can be pretty racist/hateful against the "other" blacks.
It's the "one of the good ones" angle. It shows the hypocrisy of man, and I think it's a cornerstone reason why X-Men was so relatable.
That's because Cap and the FF are celebrities. If they were just random schmucks you'd have a point. The X-Men have a secret compound where they train little Timmy from down the block to fight off waves of attack robots with just his excessively long fingernails, or whatever his power is. Cap and the FF aren't actively recruiting, the X-Men are and conspiracy theories and hate are pretty closely aligned.
Exactly.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Nah, that doesn't make any sense. It would it "supers" were hated and not "mutants." Johnny Storm is worshipped, but still occasionally goes nova and burns down a village. But if he was a mutant...boy.
Definitely. It has to be a world with mutants and humans. We've never had enough time for the all mutant island/city/country ideas to really flourish, but it could be interesting. I still like the mutants and humans world idea best though.
It's racism, it isn't supposed to make sense. If everyone made sense we wouldn't have racism.
The Silver
Member
I remember reading the Bendis Daredevil run and it had a scene where it mentioned that the general public sees all superpowered people as being mutants or secretly mutants. There's consipracies that Daredevil is a mutant.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
In this context, that would make every mutant on the Avengers the Uncle Toms of the mutant world. I can see why editorial would want to move away from that uncomfortable position.
excelsiorlef
Member
I like the idea of a mutant country within a larger world, all mutants would basically just be super fights all he time. I mean what can you honestly do in a world where everyone has powers. Stagnation right fast, that and what 200 mutants tops these days? Stupid House of M genocide.
General public thinks Spiderman is a mutant. To the general public, anyone who can do something a normal human can't do == mutant even if they're not.
It's kinda how like the general public in many countries think everyone from the middle east is Indian, or that all Asians are chinese.
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
they really tried to do an assassination plot on my boy with this one.
googleplex
Member
excelsiorlef
Member
Omg is Val a cutie
Powerful I love that and but....
What about Captain Marvel, Thor, Doctor Strange, Hank Pym, Vision, She-Hulk, Soider-Woman, I can keep going
Powerful I love that and but....
What about Captain Marvel, Thor, Doctor Strange, Hank Pym, Vision, She-Hulk, Soider-Woman, I can keep going
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
On a long enough timeline, all Marvel discussions on GAF end up back on Scott.
I miss Gillen's Scott. Easily the best version. Such a shame Bendis bogarting the X-Men killed off Gillen's run and meant he had to speed up all of his plans. It also shows how little Bendis cares, given Gillen's run ended with Sinister daring Scott to come after him... and a Scott hasn't. He hasn't even mentioned Sinister since AvX ended. Like you think that'd be conversation young and old Cyclops would have once... or that Sinister would be interested in a young Scott appearing.
But nope, it cuts into such great material as Young Iceman.
excelsiorlef
Member
Also known as The Great Summers Inevitability
They are, but I think it's largely because Emma is fun and brings out Cyke's (very faint) sense of humor.
The Silver
Member
and it's always AvX that gets brought up.
I think the Matthew stuff is the most egregious example of #Cyclopswasright
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
Once again, and ill go at googleplex, manmade and williams again and say hell no to that.
googleplex
Member
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
AvX in a nutshell
yeah, and his plan was to put the phoenix in an untrained girl. stones and glass houses and all that
googleplex
Member
Yeah thank god the Avengers they gave Hope three days of training that was somehow more important then her entire lifetime of training with cable. I'm mean that totally wasn't a an ass pull plot device that was put there specifically to justify Cap and the Avengers ridiculous and actions or anything.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
AvX in a nutshell
Lol. "Lucky."
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
what was the extent of her training? because cable isnt in any position as he is to give psychic training. like mentioned earlier it was most like survival training. a shame scott, a man with plans on plans didnt have the foresight to place her with rachel
excelsiorlef
Member
This is why I love comic books, they are honestly inherently ridiculous but you can have the best and the most fun arguments, debates and discussions about them.
<3! I love this thread.
Ps
<3! I love this thread.
Ps
Cyclops was right!
You were doing so well until the spoiler, what a shame.
Another fool buying into.... Him.
googleplex
Member
You want to know the most ridiculous thing about the whole ideal that Hope needed to train with Spider-Man and Iron iron fist was?
Why in the blue fuck did she need to learn what ever magical lessons only Spider-Man and iron fist could teach her. When Rachel Summers is just chilling at the Jean Grey school? You know the person who was host to the Phoenix for YEARS and never lost control. There was someone that had intimate knowledge of what the Phoenix force was and how to use it. But did Captain America and the Avengers ask her a damned thing? Nope they ran straight to claw boy who then proceeded to whisper poison in their ears about Cyclops.
I'll say it again. The whole ideal that Hope could only be prepared and trained by the Avengers is completely at odds with any type of logic. A bullshit plot device to justify Captain America ridiculousness.
Why in the blue fuck did she need to learn what ever magical lessons only Spider-Man and iron fist could teach her. When Rachel Summers is just chilling at the Jean Grey school? You know the person who was host to the Phoenix for YEARS and never lost control. There was someone that had intimate knowledge of what the Phoenix force was and how to use it. But did Captain America and the Avengers ask her a damned thing? Nope they ran straight to claw boy who then proceeded to whisper poison in their ears about Cyclops.
I'll say it again. The whole ideal that Hope could only be prepared and trained by the Avengers is completely at odds with any type of logic. A bullshit plot device to justify Captain America ridiculousness.
excelsiorlef
Member
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
you blame captain america for not going to rachel. not her father?
googleplex
Member
For the record I blame Captain America for showing up on Scott door step with Helicarrer for of super-powered guns. Knowing what the mutant have suffered at the hands of the government up until that point.
I blame Captain America for dropping in on Scott and start issuing commands and orders like Cyclops is one of his underlings.
I blame Captain America for no just taking to Scott and saying "Hey I heard you wife was once a Phoenix host. What can you guys tell us about it?"
I blame Captain America and Tony for trying to kill the phoenix in the first place and creating the Phoenix 5. An act of which, to this day neither of those mother fuckers have owned up to.
Seriously read that whole exchange between Cap and Cyclops. Captain America is in full jack-booted Thug mode.
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
neither side spoke to each other. the whole event was a failure of miscommunication. you keep going on about cap, and its deserved, but your boy fucked up too. like you said, he has a phoenix host, but he doesnt put her with her. i dont see how you can blame cap for than, when her own dad didnt think of it
In terms of being a well-written story, AvX falls apart completely when Daredevil and She Hulk join The Avengers in invading Utopia. That is so absurdly ridiculously fucking insanely stupid that if you keep reading, you really have already forgiven the comic-book for making absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Then you throw in The Avengers irrational hard-on for Xavier (who found out the Danger Room was alive and chose to ignore it/sent X-Men teams to die) being the noblest man of all time and Cyclops lack of a back up plan (this is why Bendis writing him sucks, his Cyclops can barely manage one plan)...
I mean it's still a really fun story, and I still think Cyclops is in the right, but that's only because of Marvel's stupid editorial shit in the early 00s where they let Genosha be destroyed and none of The Avengers did shit to try and stop it from happening. And Captain America's whole 'WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT LATER' is just the worst.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
"Yeah, yeah, great. You guys got genocided twice. Whatever. Listen..."
TheBlackMarvel
Member
Cable is one of the most powerful psychics in the world...
CAP: WE GOT THIS AVENGERS. Stark, you're made of metal, fight Magneto. Luke Cage, you're solid, fight Namor underwater. Take The Thing, he's made of rock so I believe he won't sink. Black Panther, fight Storm - she controls the weather but you have claws. Thor, fight Emma Frost - she's a telepath, but you have a hammer. RED HULK... FIGHT ICEMAN. Heat beats ice. Shield intel says he's an omega, I'm guessing that's his codename. And Daredevil, you fight Psylocke. Radar sense vs telepath/telekinesis? YOU GOT THIS BRO. And I'll fight Cyclops.
excelsiorlef
Member
So anyone else find a disturbing beyond the fourth wall issue with mutants and how Marvel handles/handled them
Mutants have within universe been an oppressed minority as we all know a metaphor for LGBT/Civil/etc... rights. Sometimes that's dine effectively other times not but it's generally there. They'd built a society , a culture of their own, etc... It's all pretty neat and mutants become basically a major culture of the 616 Earth.
Then bam 16 million dead in Genosha genocide. Powerful stuff right?
Then bam
Decimation.
More Genocide.
Now why do I say disturbing beyond the fourth wall? Because at least Decimation (and possibly Genosha genocide for all I know) was done solely because Marvel felt there was just too many mutants. So let's genocide them. I mean that's kinda fucked, I mean abstractly I get it, but it's fucked to think that they looked at their resident oppressed minority and said there's too many of you, time to kill 90% of ya off, somewhat taking on the mindset of the bigots within the comics, essentially playing the role of the Textual Purifiers.
Then not really every bothering to deal with it much within the books.
No one really but the mutants gave a fuck about what happened to the mutants.
It's messed up
Mutants have within universe been an oppressed minority as we all know a metaphor for LGBT/Civil/etc... rights. Sometimes that's dine effectively other times not but it's generally there. They'd built a society , a culture of their own, etc... It's all pretty neat and mutants become basically a major culture of the 616 Earth.
Then bam 16 million dead in Genosha genocide. Powerful stuff right?
Then bam
Decimation.
More Genocide.
Now why do I say disturbing beyond the fourth wall? Because at least Decimation (and possibly Genosha genocide for all I know) was done solely because Marvel felt there was just too many mutants. So let's genocide them. I mean that's kinda fucked, I mean abstractly I get it, but it's fucked to think that they looked at their resident oppressed minority and said there's too many of you, time to kill 90% of ya off, somewhat taking on the mindset of the bigots within the comics, essentially playing the role of the Textual Purifiers.
Then not really every bothering to deal with it much within the books.
No one really but the mutants gave a fuck about what happened to the mutants.
It's messed up
Thunder Monkey
Banned
And this is why I feel Cyclops transformation is not only believable, but a necessary transition for the successor of Xavier.
excelsiorlef
Member
It is a whole new amazingly even more fucked up world for mutants.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Seriously.
At first it was a few bigots building killer robots, an occasional alien threat, and a megalomaniac mutant.
Now it's the guvmint, Shield, terrorist bigots, crazy mutants, mass extinction events, even crazier mutants (oh wait not a mutant anymore hi Wanda!), lotsa aliens, and meddling uninformed (at best) superheroes.
Shit got grim for mutants.
Manmademan
Member
Disagree here. There's an issue with the concept of mutants, and the implementation of "marvel time" that was becoming problematic.
Mutants didn't really begin to "emerge" (though there were a few around here and there) until Xavier assembled the Xmen. In real time this was about 50 years ago. In marvel time it was closer to 15.
In real time, 50 years is a lot of time to create mutants. In marvel time, the mutant population went from about 8 mutants to about 30 million in the space of around a decade- most of these mutants being not children, but adults in their prime. To put it another way, Statistically Manhattan probably had more mutants in it than it had Jewish people.
not only was this nonsensical, but it also creates all kinds of issues when trying to tell stories from the perspective of an oppressed minority. Marvel HAD to cut back on the amount of mutants. Decimation was a good way to fix the problem without killing tens of millions of people en masse again.
excelsiorlef
Member
I'm not disagreeing even fully saying they shouldn't have done it. I'm saying it still has disturbing connotations even if for narrative sense it's right for the story.
And the mass depowering was still another form of genocide.
Though to be frank 30 million is still a minority when you spread that out over the world, and it probably wasn't even 30 anymore because we just had a massive culling of 16 million in Genosha.
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