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[Hero]

You want to know the most ridiculous thing about the whole ideal that Hope needed to train with Spider-Man and Iron iron fist was?

Why in the blue fuck did she need to learn what ever magical lessons only Spider-Man and iron fist could teach her. When Rachel Summers is just chilling at the Jean Grey school? You know the person who was host to the Phoenix for YEARS and never lost control. There was someone that had intimate knowledge of what the Phoenix force was and how to use it. But did Captain America and the Avengers ask her a damned thing? Nope they ran straight to claw boy who then proceeded to whisper poison in their ears about Cyclops.

I'll say it again. The whole ideal that Hope could only be prepared and trained by the Avengers is completely at odds with any type of logic. A bullshit plot device to justify Captain America ridiculousness.

Pretty much this. It was completely bullshit comic writing that no one even brought up the fact that Rachel Summers(Grey) was the host of the Phoenix Force for years and never went dark.

the phoenix isnt something you can train about on second hand knowledge. he could probably have lifted providence for years and still not be able to help with the energy overload.

So how exactly were Iron Fist and Spider-Man capable of helping to train her?

 

[Parallax]

#cyclopswasright
#parallaxwaswrong

somebody get this #aintshit dude outta here please

 

[PsychBat!]

Ganke is the fucking worst.

 

[kswiston]

So how exactly were Iron Fist and Spider-Man capable of helping to train her?

Event plot logic.


Comic fans scoff at those contrived Hero vs Hero events like Civil War or AvX where everyone loses their common sense, but when people are debating the outcome of them years later, I can see why Marvel keeps publishing them.

 

[excelsiorlef]

because he put a bunch on non powered kids on a bus, fully knowing that there are dudes out there trying to kill them. its like throwing birds who cant fly to a pack of wolves. his fault

and for the morlocks, he claims to be one for all mutants, but if you dont have those supermodel looks, you cant ride with him. didnt you find it odd that at his new school there were no abnormal looking students? storm made all the moves he should have done for someone making that claim. his fault

noones perfect, but noone else has people saying their faves have a plan for everything either.

and the captain america being a monster is so off base it isnt funny. he wasnt a puppet for the govt until he got old. he went by the captain and nomad, because he didnt believe in some of the things the us govt was doing at the time.

Yeah he was Nomad or The Captain during the Mutant Registration Act, still didn't see him speaking out or doing shit even when he was already not happy with the government.

He is not a monster, he's probably not even a bigot but he is anot a friend or ally of the mutant population. End of story.

Cyclops had to literally become a Mutant enemy to help save his kind during that time.

As for the Morlocks he was part of the groups that tried to save them, also didn;t Morlocks mostly want to stick together? I dunno not super familiar with them as much. Marrow was an X-Man for a whole though .

And as for looks?

Well this was Cyke's team at one point

Hardly a supermodel bodied team.

 

[Parallax]

Event plot logic.


Comic fans scoff at those contrived Hero vs Hero events like Civil War or AvX where everyone loses their common sense, but when people are debating the outcome of them years later, I can see why Marvel keeps publishing them.

no lies spoken

 

[googleplex]

Ganke is the fucking worst.

You and I can't be friends.
>:-|

 

[Sadist]

Everybody talks about training Hope, but I never saw it like that; it was more or less giving her some pointers and pray to god she stays in control if she got a hold of the Phoenix force. That's it.

Now AvX was a lot of stupid no denying there, but let's be honest here; how can you actually believe you can stay in control of the Phoenix Force? Sure it's because of the Avengers (woops, sorry bout that!) it's power was divided between the worlds biggest narcissist, the organic steel Juggernaut, the mentally unstable demonchild, a woman who has a hard time with morals and a man who underestimated this but should have known better. I mean really, you saw how it consumed Jean. And during her moments of clarity she urged the others to kill her before it's too late and the phoenix would burn the universe. That was all thrown out of the window when the Phoenix posessed Scott. Sure, it tried to preserve itself from possible harm and will eventually manipulate his mind, but it always bugged me during AvX that Scott never had this moment. He just let it happen. I dunno, for someone who is a pretty capable leader this was pretty disappointing.

Spoiler

In the end all the mutants walked away from the Phoenix Five, even fucking Magneto. If that guy tries to be the voice of reason, you know you done fucked up

So while everybody was stupid during AvX, I'm still on #Cyclopswasn'tthatrighteither

And mind you, Wolverine is a hypocrite as well, but eh, I just like the way he was written in Aaron's W&tX-M.

 

[Parallax]

Yeah he was Nomad or The Captain during the Mutant Registration Act, still didn't see him speaking out or doing shit even when he was already not happy with the government.

He is not a monster, he's probably not even a bigot but he is anot a friend or ally of the mutant population. End of story.

Cyclops had to literally become a Mutant enemy to help save his kind during that time.

As for the Morlocks he was part of the groups that tried to save them, also didn;t Morlocks mostly want to stick together? I dunno not super familiar with them as much. Marrow was an X-Man for a whole though .

And as for looks?

Well this was Cyke's team at one point

Hardly a supermodel bodied team.

the morlocks are people that get swept under the rug by everyone. and they feel so outcasted that they think the sewers are the only place for them. the mutant messiah stuff would go a long way if he tried to integrate them into the academy fold.

youre aware thats two teams, and both are very much supermodel bodied teams. the outliers on both are advanced ai

 

[googleplex]

Now AvX was a lot of stupid no denying there, but let's be honest here; how can you actually believe you can stay in control of the Phoenix Force? .

Why not Rachel Summers did. Rachel was Phoenix host for years and never lost control. Actually the whole ideal that the Phoenix will eventually turn you into a monster is completely at odds with continuity. Jean over went dark Phoenix due to people fucking with her mind.

The "Phoenix will alway slowly drive you mad" stuff mostly comes from the TV show.

 

[excelsiorlef]

the morlocks are people that get swept under the rug by everyone. and they feel so outcasted that they think the sewers are the only place for them. the mutant messiah stuff would go a long way if he tried to integrate them into the academy fold.

youre aware thats two teams, and both are very much supermodel bodied teams. the outliers on both are advanced ai

Shiiiit you got me I didn't notice.

You're right Cyke should do more. A lot more, but hey you know who did nothing for mutants as a whole? The Avengers? Who tried to wipe out mutants an Avenger. Where were the Avengers prior to A+X when there was sentinels and genocides? Nowhere. Who protected the one who wiped out the mutants? The Avengers.

I'm not arguing Cyke is eprfect, I'm arguing he's the best to lead the mutants and I'm arguing that the Avengers have done fuck and all for mutant kind, especially Cap.

That said another thing Cyke is fighting a revolution it's not his fault a ton of if not most of the heavy hitters don't come from folks like the Morlocks

 

[Manmademan]

Why not Rachel Summers did. Rachel was Phoenix host for years and never lost control. Actually the whole ideal that the Phoenix will eventually turn you into a monster is completely at odds with continuity. Jean over went dark Phoenix due to people fucking with her mind.

The "Phoenix will alway slowly drive you mad" stuff mostly comes from the TV show.

Even funnier, the Avengers went apeshit when they thought the phoenix was coming, and started the Avengers vs. Xmen BS when trying to take Hope because she *might* end up being a host.

a couple months later an adult quentin quire shows up as a full fledged phoenix during battle of the atom and no one gives a shit.

 

[Sadist]

Why not Rachel Summers did. Rachel was Phoenix host for years and never lost control. Actually the whole ideal that the Phoenix will eventually turn you into a monster is completely at odds with continuity. Jean over went dark Phoenix due to people fucking with her mind.

The "Phoenix will alway slowly drive you mad" stuff mostly comes from the TV show.

I'm not talking monsters here, but power corrupts. Eventually.

 

[Manmademan]

I'm not talking monsters here, but power corrupts. Eventually.

Rachel was hundreds of years old or something equally ridiculous before the phoenix eventually left her, and even then she still had residual ability left over. never corrupted.

edit: then there's this bit of trivia:

 

[Squire]

So, to maybe accidently bring this somewhat back on topic, is that what we're all assuming the end result of this is? The end of the Ultimate universe, with the merging of popular characters from there to the 616 (which is confirmed, right?) and the separating of universes like mutants in one, etc?

I thought the expectation was that a certain familiar status quo will be established/resumed given Rage of Uotron is apparently set after Secret Wars and resembles the 616 of old.

 

[DeathyBoy]

where do iron fist and wanda exist in that 90%? because she would have been up a creek without a paddle with those two

They don't. Because neither of them does anything to prepare Hope for the Phoenix Force. It's a case of poor writing telling us, but not showing us.

 

[Manmademan]

So, to maybe accidently bring this somewhat back on topic, is that what we're all assuming the end result of this is? The end of the Ultimate universe

yup.

with the merging of popular characters from there to the 616 (which is confirmed, right?)

a literal handful. Miles, Fury, and probably the Maker will cross over. Everyone else is probably toast.

and the separating of universes like mutants in one, etc?

not happening.

 

[Sadist]

Rachel was hundreds of years old or something equally ridiculous before the phoenix eventually left her, and even then she still had residual ability left over. never corrupted.

edit: then there's this bit of trivia:

So it's 50-50 kind of situation then...

 

[Parallax]

Rachel was hundreds of years old or something equally ridiculous before the phoenix eventually left her, and even then she still had residual ability left over. never corrupted.

edit: then there's this bit of trivia:

isnt there more to all that?

They don't. Because neither of them does anything to prepare Hope for the Phoenix Force. It's a case of poor writing telling us, but not showing us.

so then how does that change things for scott and nate? thats telling and not showing as well. what we know is that she watched cable fight, not that he taught her how to deal with her powers

 

[Manmademan]

isnt there more to all that?

not that I have scans of. there's more to it, but the point is that had hope and the 5 lights been allowed to do whatever unmolested, the phoenix would have arrived, undid what wanda did during decimation, and continued on it's way. It had created her and was arriving for a specific purpose.

So it's 50-50 kind of situation then...

not at all, since as the scan above shows the phoenix created an identical host a billion years ago elsewhere when evolution was unnaturally halted, without an issue. There's no reason to assume Hope would have suddenly burned the planet to ash when history says otherwise.

 

[Parallax]

not that I have scans of. there's more to it, but the point is that had hope and the 5 lights been allowed to do whatever unmolested, the phoenix would have arrived, undid what wanda did during decimation, and continued on it's way. It had created her and was arriving for a specific purpose.

and unit was trying to see what would happen if hope didnt have her five lights. the game was rigged from the start

 

[Manmademan]

and unit was trying to see what would happen if hope didnt have her five lights. the game was rigged from the start

The lights were just fine, until the avengers invaded and quarantined them all, then Tony Stark shot the phoenix and sent the fragments into unintended hosts.

Had the avengers did absolutely nothing, that would have been the most positive outcome.

 

[mreddie]

Why not Rachel Summers did. Rachel was Phoenix host for years and never lost control. Actually the whole ideal that the Phoenix will eventually turn you into a monster is completely at odds with continuity. Jean over went dark Phoenix due to people fucking with her mind.

The "Phoenix will alway slowly drive you mad" stuff mostly comes from the TV show.

Oh god, the Summers family tree is really complicated.

 

[Parallax]

The lights were just fine, until the avengers invaded and quarantined them all, then Tony Stark shot the phoenix and sent the fragments into unintended hosts.

Had the avengers did absolutely nothing, that would have been the most positive outcome.

A way would have been found. He was looking to see what would happen. he wasnt going to let things naturally go along.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Oh god, the Summers family tree is really complicated.

Best thing is like 99% of them are from AUs

And none of the 616s are from Jean and none of them grew up in present day 616

Scott has a ton of children but was never a dad lol, and Jean never a Mom.

 

[Slayven]

 

[mreddie]

Best thing is like 99% of them are from AUs

And none of the 616s are from Jean and none of them grew up in present day 616

Scott has a ton of children but was never a dad lol, and Jean never a Mom.

Yeah, especially when as of now, Scott has him, Alex, Cable, Hope, Rachel, Nate and not to mention, teen self and teen Jean.

Fuck.

Dunno if Ruby counts since she's not on 616.

 

[Squire]

Yeah, especially when as of now, Scott has him, Alex, Cable, Hope, Rachel, Nate and not to mention, teen self and teen Jean.

Fuck.

Dunno if Ruby counts since she's not on 616.

She could get there though. She's in Future Imperfect which is a SW tie-in.

Btw, Black Swan was/is a mutant, right? Telepathy + teleportation.

 

[OmniGamer]

Why not Rachel Summers did. Rachel was Phoenix host for years and never lost control. Actually the whole ideal that the Phoenix will eventually turn you into a monster is completely at odds with continuity. Jean over went dark Phoenix due to people fucking with her mind.

The "Phoenix will alway slowly drive you mad" stuff mostly comes from the TV show.

Exactly...not to mention Jean was suddenly thrust into cosmic power instantly, whereas Rachel willingly claimed the power.

But there is something people forget with Rachel...she was actually unknowingly a co-pilot the majority of her time in Excalibur. After the battle with Necrom, Phoenix was healing Rachel's mind and body...it then revealed to Rachel that it hid the fact that it had acquired a consciousness(and just learned that in this state, she was stealing from life unborn), but also thats it had suppressed Rachel's memories of her past. Who knows how she would have turned out if she remembered everything done to her by Ahab and Mojo while she had full access to the force.

 

[RangerX]

I've been away from the comic scene for a while and have only jumped back in with the first two issues of secret wars. The first two issues were great but maybe someone could clear up a few things for me. So does Doom know that this is a completely new reality or is he oblivious to the multiverse collapsing? Likewise with everyone else, do they know whats happened? What caused the collapse of the multiverse in the first place? Also I never really liked the ultimate universe but it seems like ultimate Reed is a complete arsehole. seriously. Loving Rabin's art too. Top quality stuff.

 

[Squire]

I've been away from the comic scene for a while and have only jumped back in with the first two issues of secret wars. The first two issues were great but maybe someone could clear up a few things for me. So does Doom know that this is a completely new reality or is he oblivious to the multiverse collapsing? Likewise with everyone else, do they know whats happened? What caused the collapse of the multiverse in the first place? Also I never really liked the ultimate universe but it seems like ultimate Reed is a complete arsehole. seriously. Loving Rabin's art too. Top quality stuff.

Doom appears to be conscious of what's happened and Strange might be as well, given he sold his soul to become a higher power before the collapse.

The collapse in question was caused by an incursion, which in this context refers to two earth smashing together. The final incursion was Earth-616 colliding with Earth-1610 - Ultimate Marvel.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

I've been away from the comic scene for a while and have only jumped back in with the first two issues of secret wars. The first two issues were great but maybe someone could clear up a few things for me. So does Doom know that this is a completely new reality or is he oblivious to the multiverse collapsing? Likewise with everyone else, do they know whats happened? What caused the collapse of the multiverse in the first place? Also I never really liked the ultimate universe but it seems like ultimate Reed is a complete arsehole. seriously. Loving Rabin's art too. Top quality stuff.

The Beyonders - a race of supremely powerful beings that exist outside of the multiverse - wanted to blow it all up all at once by using their own creations (the molecule men - whose life force is linked to their respective universes) as timebombs. The 616 molecule man cottoned onto this and with Doom went to investigate a way of stopping it. The plan was to then kill a whole lot of molecule men throughout the multiverse, thereby creating a contraction that would lead to the incursions (and therefore give people a chance).

Doom had a plan beyond that but it doesn't appear to have worked out all that well. But at the end of it he faced off with the Beyonders alongside the 616 Molecule Man and Doctor Strange. So those three are likely the only ones (outside of the people in the rafts) who have knowledge of what happened.

 

[mreddie]

Dunno if it's legit but shit's getting delayed.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/05/31/secret-wars-4-slips-two-weeks-takes-other-crossover-series-with-it/

 

[RangerX]

Doom appears to be conscious of what's happened and Strange might be as well, given he sold his soul to become a higher power before the collapse.

The collapse in question was caused by an incursion, which in this context refers to two earth smashing together. The final incursion was Earth-616 colliding with Earth-1610 - Ultimate Marvel.

The Beyonders - a race of supremely powerful beings that exist in outside of the multiverse - wanted to blow it all up all at once by using their own creations (the molecule men - whose life force is linked to their respective universes) as timebombs. The 616 molecule men cottoned onto this and with Doom went to investigate a way of stopping it. The plan was to then kill a whole lot of molecule men throughout the multiverse, thereby creating a contraction that would lead to the incursions (and therefore give people a chance).

Doom had a plan beyond that but it doesn't appear to have worked out all that well. But at the end of it he faced off with the Beyonders alongside the 616 Molecule Man and Doctor Strange. So those three are likely the only ones (outside of the people in the rafts) who have knowledge of what happened.

Sweet thanks for the info. I've a lot of catching up to do. I'm going to be picking up all the secret wars stuff over the next few months anyway.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Dunno if it's legit but shit's getting delayed.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/05/31/secret-wars-4-slips-two-weeks-takes-other-crossover-series-with-it/

I believe this is legit.

 

[kswiston]

I believe this is legit.

Me too. Esad Ribic is not exactly a fast artist, and they were shipping two books a month. It would be different if they gave Ribic 8 months of lead time, but I am pretty sure he was just doing something else in the not too distant past. That, and Marvel benefits from dragging this out a bit.

As long as we are still getting at least monthly issues, it's not too bad.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Me too. Esad Ribic is not exactly a fast artist,

I dont' think it's Ribic.

I alluded to this a couple months ago, and noticed nobody even considered the possibility Hickman was dragging ass.

 

[kswiston]

I dont' think it's Ribic.

who do you think it is?

 

[Ke0]

Why not Rachel Summers did. Rachel was Phoenix host for years and never lost control. Actually the whole ideal that the Phoenix will eventually turn you into a monster is completely at odds with continuity. Jean over went dark Phoenix due to people fucking with her mind.

The "Phoenix will alway slowly drive you mad" stuff mostly comes from the TV show.

At no point did Scott ever think to let Rachel train Hope. The entire time Hope was under Scott's watch all he ever did was repeatedly say "You're the chosen one".

What the hell kind of training is that?

I think that "What If" issue they did was pretty accurate on what probably would have happened.

 

[Squire]

I dont' think it's Ribic.

I alluded to this a couple months ago, and noticed nobody even considered the possibility Hickman was dragging ass.

Hickman tweeted when he finished SW #8 like a week and a half ago. Plus, I don't know. All the issues he did between Avengers and New Avengers? Not to mention the early work on Avengers World?

I don't know if he's dragging or just writing a lot.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Hickman tweeted when he finished SW #8 like a week and a half ago.

Sometimes "finished" isn't actually finished, though. Especially once editorial starts looking at stuff and you suddenly have to re-do stuff you thought was previously "finished."

But dragging ass probably isn't the best way to put it when, you're right, he's writing a lot of stuff.

 

[kswiston]

Sometimes "finished" isn't actually finished, though. Especially once editorial starts looking at stuff and you suddenly have to re-do stuff you thought was previously "finished."

But dragging ass probably isn't the best way to put it when, you're right, he's writing a lot of stuff.

Editorial trying to stretch it out so they can cram in more tie-ins would make more sense if Ribic isn't the cause. Hickman has never been a slow writer. I doubt it takes him 6 weeks for him to do a second draft of Secret Wars 5 when he has averaged 3 Marvel books a month for over two years now.

Ribic's runs are always full of fill ins or rotating artists, so I still suspect him. Detailed artists always end up taking longer than expected on Event books, as they try to turn out their strongest work.

 

[Mudcrab]

I dont' think it's Ribic.

I alluded to this a couple months ago, and noticed nobody even considered the possibility Hickman was dragging ass.

Nah he submitted his final script for #8 already.

 

[MHWilliams]

Even funnier, the Avengers went apeshit when they thought the phoenix was coming, and started the Avengers vs. Xmen BS when trying to take Hope because she *might* end up being a host.

a couple months later an adult quentin quire shows up as a full fledged phoenix during battle of the atom and no one gives a shit.

Because to the X-Men the Phoenix Force is a dime a dozen.

Rachel, Nate Grey, the Stepford Cuckoos (Warsong), and Emma (Endsong) have all manifested the Phoenix without burning the world down to ashes. It had honestly become a regular thing for the X-Men. It's like the X-Men kicking down the Baxter Building because Galactus is back and they don't trust the FF to take care of it.

The only time the Phoenix is somehow uncontrollable lately is AvX. Otherwise, it's a thing that occasionally happens to powerful psychics.

As long as they let Peter David write, she'll never die.

 

[Manmademan]

Best thing is like 99% of them are from AUs

And none of the 616s are from Jean and none of them grew up in present day 616

Scott has a ton of children but was never a dad lol, and Jean never a Mom.

Not true!

 

[Scirrocco]

Best thing is like 99% of them are from AUs

And none of the 616s are from Jean and none of them grew up in present day 616

Scott has a ton of children but was never a dad lol, and Jean never a Mom.

Half the reason people hate Cyke is because he left his wife and son (Madelyne and Nathan) to go join X-factor with undead Jean, so cyclops has definitely been a dad in the main continuity.

Its just the son was then sent to be raised in the future because he was infected with a Technoorganic virus, I think, then came back as Cable.

 

[googleplex]

At no point did Scott ever think to let Rachel train Hope. The entire time Hope was under Scott's watch all he ever did was repeatedly say "You're the chosen one".

What the hell kind of training is that?

I think that "What If" issue they did was pretty accurate on what probably would have happened.

1.Rachel was with Wolverine's band of assholes and Scott didn't have access the her.

2. And no point did Rachel say " Oh shit about to go down I better go and help this girl learn to control phoenix"

3. The whole point of bringing up Rachel was to show how much of a ass pull plot contrivance having Spider-Man and Iron Fist of all people train Hope for what she's been training her whole life for.

The entirely of AvX was ill-conceived and everyone was wildly out of Character. The fact that Scott Summers, of all people didn't make use of Rachel Summers to help train Hope points to bad writing. Not any fault on Scott's part.

Doesn't negate that fact the Cyclops was right though.

 

[Manmademan]

Half the reason people hate Cyke is because he left his wife and son (Madelyne and Nathan) to go join X-factor with undead Jean, so cyclops has definitely been a dad in the main continuity.

Its just the son was then sent to be raised in the future because he was infected with a Technoorganic virus, I think, then came back as Cable.

Scott and Jean were the people who raised Cable in the future for about 15 years or so.
Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix Vol.1. Time travel and clone bodies were involved.

 

[twozerotwo]

Finally got to catch up on my cawmix for the week.

Old Man Logan was great. The art style wasn't to my liking at certain parts but I really liked the issue overall.

I picked up Attilan Rising due to Agents of Shield making me curious as to who/what the Inhumans are. I liked it even though I felt more lost than usual reading it.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Finally got to catch up on my cawmix for the week.

Old Man Logan was great. The art style wasn't to my liking at certain parts but I really liked the issue overall.

I picked up Attilan Rising due to Agents of Shield making me curious as to who/what the Inhumans are. I liked it even though I felt more lost than usual reading it.

Attilan Rising is not a good introduction to the Inhumans.