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The most useless RPG party member.
- Thread starter justjohn
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flipping_heck
Member
Every single party member in Grandia III.. apart from Alf.. maybe...
who got killed at the last dungeon.water_wendi
Water is not wet!
For WRPGs: any party member what has the same skill/combat focus as your character. Especially true in games that have 3 party members (Kotor, JE, ME for example).
The most recent rpg i played with a ton of useless party members was Drakensang. By the time i had my core four, the others just chilled in the mansion talking amongst themselves. Baldurs Gate had something similar to this where you stumble upon party members well into the game. Since you are usually full they are turned down. At least with BG1 i can respect the idea behind this.. party members can die rather frequently and need to be replaced. Too bad for them that save/reload exists :lol
The most recent rpg i played with a ton of useless party members was Drakensang. By the time i had my core four, the others just chilled in the mansion talking amongst themselves. Baldurs Gate had something similar to this where you stumble upon party members well into the game. Since you are usually full they are turned down. At least with BG1 i can respect the idea behind this.. party members can die rather frequently and need to be replaced. Too bad for them that save/reload exists :lol
Adray in Star Ocean 3 (at least, when you are level 255 with all characters and play with Maria/Cliff & Co everyone else seems fucking shit, Adray is the shittiest)
Noel in Star Ocean 2 (what the fuck Energy Arrow). Everyone needs to be like Bowman that can solo the game with his EXPLOSION PILLS and PPP P P POISON PILLS
Noel in Star Ocean 2 (what the fuck Energy Arrow). Everyone needs to be like Bowman that can solo the game with his EXPLOSION PILLS and PPP P P POISON PILLS
I'm going to say Selphie from FFVIII. Yellow dress, annoying and childish personality, not good at magic, healing, attacking or taking a hit.
I say this in spite of the fact of her having THE BEST MOST OVERPOWERED ABILITY IN THE GAME.
Her Limit Break was Slots, which you could repeatedly spin so that it picks some high level magic spell plus how many times she's going to use it. Getting 9x Ultima is good on its own. But not only that, she has magic in that slot that you can't get anywhere else in the game. The game-breaking move is The End, which wins the battle for you, no matter what.
You could literally storm into the final boss or Omega Weapon, cast Aura on Selphie, keep spinning the slots until you got The End and win the game.
...not that the game isn't already horribly broken enough to the point where the game is easier to never level up.
I say this in spite of the fact of her having THE BEST MOST OVERPOWERED ABILITY IN THE GAME.
Her Limit Break was Slots, which you could repeatedly spin so that it picks some high level magic spell plus how many times she's going to use it. Getting 9x Ultima is good on its own. But not only that, she has magic in that slot that you can't get anywhere else in the game. The game-breaking move is The End, which wins the battle for you, no matter what.
You could literally storm into the final boss or Omega Weapon, cast Aura on Selphie, keep spinning the slots until you got The End and win the game.
...not that the game isn't already horribly broken enough to the point where the game is easier to never level up.
prodystopian
Member
comedian said:
Kimari. And I agree on that one. Rikku had steal and mug, so she was moderately useful.
What? I love archers!KittenMaster said:
They kill flying units dead.
They can't be counterattacked by swords/lances/axes.
With their traditionally high speed and dodging abilities (I forget which stats affect this) they rarely take hits and never get double-attacked.
They also shoot over walls in dungeon/castle levels.
Yes some archers are useless but that goes for all FE unit types.
Davey Cakes
Member
Chocobo Knights. Nothing but pure gimmick.
KittenMaster
Member
Well...
Most archers in the localized games start out so ridiculously slow, requiring several level ups before they're doubling things. I know in FE7 the effective damage for bows was only 2x, instead of 3x like it was supposed to be, making it possible for a archer that can't double yet to actually not kill a Pegasus Knight.
The biggest flying threats in FE7 are Wyvern Riders/Lords, but by then you get Louise, and may have Geitz as well.
In FE9, your first Archer comes in Chapter 9, and is one of those kids that starts out severely underleveled and can barely do anything. Your bow rocking was from Shinon, a Sniper, and you'll eventually get Astrid as well.
Shadow Dragon, yeah, there are some unpromoted archers that are awesome, finally, but wait, they aren't archers, they're Hunters! Hunters pretty much obsolete the Archer class (while Snipers almost obsolete the Horseman class due to Horsemen having such crappy stats).
True, but it also goes for any ranged weapon if you're an axe, lance, or magic user.
Highly doubt they'll be dodging things until they're Snipers since Archers tend to be pretty sluggish. Even if they're not getting doubled, they'll definitely have trouble doubling.
The only archers I can think of that aren't crappy are ones from FE4, which then they're basically mini-Snipers before actually becoming Snipers, and maybe FE Gaiden Archers where they have 3-5 range and stuff like that.
Well, specifically I was thinking of Rebecca (7), Neimi (8), and Caeda (from Shadow Dragon, whom I class-swapped). They're all relatively fast. With the last two I could place them on a forest, mountain, or fort sqare and use them as bait since they hardly got hit.KittenMaster said:
I ignored Gordin because he was slow and never had much love for Rolf for the same reason.
EDIT: I admit I was wrong about the traditionally high speed stuff. I was speaking from experience and my experience is skewed by avoiding slow units.
Yeah, sniffing and his speed at using items is pretty much all Boney is good at. He's pretty low on the totem pole. Salsa's lower, but that's kind of the point.MGrant said:
WTF? No! So wrong!
I have no idea where you are coming from complaining about his debuffs. No idea! Mother 3 is the only RPG I know of where debuffing bosses not only works, but is very practical, if not outright necessary. I don't know how anyone could get past Guardian Trio without using the tickle feather. And his debuffs work great on normal enemies. Using siren beetle to make enemies not only loose a turn but also expose their weak backsides? Yes please! Plus, you're forgetting all the cool random shit Duster pulls off whenever he feels like, such as getting an extra first hit in combat, even if the enemy ambushes the party.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
chandoog said:
Penelo >>> Ashe
I really didn't like Ashe, thought she was one of the weakest, single-minded female "leads" in a FF title, in my opinion.
That said, I loved FF12
I have to second the defense by that guy being offered earlier about Peco from Breath of Fire 3. Peco isn't useless; he's an exceptional character with only a tiny bit of effort put in when you first get him. I ignored him the first time I played the game, but he's been a staple of my battle party in all subsequent playthroughs. It's hard to beat his supreme HP count, defense, self-regeneration, and counter-attacking. If you use the speed form at the end of the game with Rei in the lead, that eliminates his speed disadvantage as well.
I'm also kind of baffled at some of the other mentions being made here. While I can at least kind of understand including Quina, simply because he's so toned down in comparison to blue mages in prior games (even though he's still pretty far from useless), including Steiner in a list of useless characters is pretty nuts. He's a great character. And, like Peco, there are a lot of characters being mentioned where they're not so much useless as they require a modicum of thought to use properly. And then there's Rafa and Malak who, for all their infamy, can be downright awesome when trained properly (not to mention that the PSP port of FFT made them even stronger by boosting the effectiveness of Truth/Untruth spells dramatically).
I kind of figured this to be a joke thread originally where people would focus on characters like Pokey and Jogurt, so... yikes.
Then the game plays the ultimate joke on the player: when you finally get the curse lifted three quarters of the way through the game, the healer says that it took so long that none of Samson's actual strength will be restored. Ugh.
There must be an awful lot of RPGs you haven't played, if that's the case. Debuffs are fantastic in boss fights in just about any Dragon Quest game, in most of the Shin Megami Tensei games, and in Final Fantasy X.
I'm also kind of baffled at some of the other mentions being made here. While I can at least kind of understand including Quina, simply because he's so toned down in comparison to blue mages in prior games (even though he's still pretty far from useless), including Steiner in a list of useless characters is pretty nuts. He's a great character. And, like Peco, there are a lot of characters being mentioned where they're not so much useless as they require a modicum of thought to use properly. And then there's Rafa and Malak who, for all their infamy, can be downright awesome when trained properly (not to mention that the PSP port of FFT made them even stronger by boosting the effectiveness of Truth/Untruth spells dramatically).
I kind of figured this to be a joke thread originally where people would focus on characters like Pokey and Jogurt, so... yikes.
bumpkin said:
Then the game plays the ultimate joke on the player: when you finally get the curse lifted three quarters of the way through the game, the healer says that it took so long that none of Samson's actual strength will be restored. Ugh.
PBalfredo said:
There must be an awful lot of RPGs you haven't played, if that's the case. Debuffs are fantastic in boss fights in just about any Dragon Quest game, in most of the Shin Megami Tensei games, and in Final Fantasy X.
I've pretty much given up on archers in Fire Emblem as well. Yeah their ranged attack means you can attack melee characters without being counter-attacked on your turn. But being unable to counter melee attacks means that when the enemies turn comes around all of your archers are wearing a big "Kill me" sign on their back. Then you're babysitting your archers all the time, they're off the front line and not getting the exp they need.
Basically anything an archer can do, a magic user can do just as well, if not better. Mage's magic works both at range and up close, so they can strike from afar without being defenseless if the enemy comes up close. With the exception of Shadow Dragon, and to a less extent the Radiance games, mages have the speed to double attack and evade pretty damn well. Archers can kill fliers dead, but in games where wyverns have lightning or wind weakness, so can magic users (enemy peg knights are so weak the archer bonus damage is rarely really necessary). In most games the computer throws more enemies with high DEF than high RES at you, so magic is good there. Plus in the Radiance games, fire magic saves you against the laguz.
Basically anything an archer can do, a magic user can do just as well, if not better. Mage's magic works both at range and up close, so they can strike from afar without being defenseless if the enemy comes up close. With the exception of Shadow Dragon, and to a less extent the Radiance games, mages have the speed to double attack and evade pretty damn well. Archers can kill fliers dead, but in games where wyverns have lightning or wind weakness, so can magic users (enemy peg knights are so weak the archer bonus damage is rarely really necessary). In most games the computer throws more enemies with high DEF than high RES at you, so magic is good there. Plus in the Radiance games, fire magic saves you against the laguz.
KittenMaster
Member
I'll give you Sheeda in terms of pure speed, though she has awful Str growth, and Archer isn't exactly known for Str, so...
Caeda is much better off being a Mage, where not only is she still doubling, but has range and better damage potential, and can even use Aura and double with it. Awesome.
Powerslave
Banned
A shitload in Chrono Cross
Unless they're getting doubled, not being able to counterattack actually makes them less vulnerable, since you won't get in a situation where one enemy dying by counter opens a spot for another enemy to attack.PBalfredo said:
Not all the games give flying units a weakness to magic. If I recall correctly enemy pegasus knights also tend to have higher RES than normal and lower DEF than normal. For other enemies (except for knights/generals), the difference in RES vs DEF is also made up for by bows generally being stronger (not to mention more plentiful and cheaper) than tomes, plus strong tomes tend to slow mages down. I don't mean to argue against mages but it's not like a good archer doesn't have some utility and benefits over a mage.
TheDarkKnight774
Member
mike0513 said:
really? I don't know if i'm in the minority, but in FFX, i made sure everyone made one appearance per fight, so they'd all level up the same. Its one of the things i liked most about the FFX battle system
If she had high strength growth she'd be broken. But yes, her strength was terrible. That's actually why I originally class swapped her, to get that extra 5% of strength... it just ended up being a great class for her IMO. Honestly though once she's able to use silver bows she'll be doing pretty heavy damage regardless.KittenMaster said:
She might make a pretty good mage. If you were doing that you would need to swap her ASAP so she can get some magic. But the game already gives you an excellent mage in Merric, while Gordin sucks as an archer. Then again, if you think archers suck to begin with I guess that'd be a non-issue.
EDIT: I forgot the huge numbers of wyvern knights this game throws at you in later chapters! Yeah, I think I'd keep her as an archer since your other choices are pretty terrible. Wolf can't class-swap to sniper, can he?
While you're right about the perils of killing one enemy only to open up room for his buddy - I've been in the case where even knights were in danger of being pinpricked to death by a sufficient goon swarm - I'm referring to the tendency of the AI to prioritize who they attack based the threat of their counter-attack. The same programming that makes the AI beeline it for any exposed cleric also makes them dogpile on the first archer they see.haircut said:
Peg knights have good RES, but they have low HP and are pretty rare. FE games throw much more wyverns at you because they're the official "bad guy" flying unit. Even if they don't have a specific magic type weakness, they all got piss poor RES. Some tomes do slow down magic users though. The Nosferatu tome might as well have a note in its description saying "you're going to need that HP sap because they other guy is going to double hit you if you don't kill him". But most of the heavy tomes are dark magic and shamans are more of the power over speed class of magic users.
Archers do have utility, I fully admit, such as being able to hijack the odd ballista. But they require more babysitting to get good than I care for. Also consider that once your group gets to promotion levels and your archers finally do become Snipers, your axemen can start using bows, as well as Generals and Lyn in certain games. Sure they won't have the weapon class right away to be rocking the Silver Bows, but it starts to seem redundant to have a dedicated range-only guy when there are more versatile and hardier characters who can use bows, in addition to the Sages who are hitting their stride by that point.
Sleeker said:
I've seen people list this guy a lot, too, which suggests to me a fundamental misunderstanding of the roles different characters play in Lost Odyssey. Tolten isn't really any more useless than any of the other mortal characters in the game, relative to the incredible power the immortal characters posses -- the balance scale there is entirely out of whack. The appropriate way to think of the mortal characters is that they're nothing more than FF9-styled skill teaching accessories, only they get to use a few commands in battle as well. That's it. Cooke, Mack, Jansen... compared to the immortals, Tolten is no better or worse as a participant in combat. They all suck. They're there for no reason other than for the functional characters to leech more skills.
Fimbulvetr
Member
John Harker said:
True dat, I'd take the best healer over a naggy princess dressed like a prostitute any day.
corrosivefrost
Member
ethelred said:
Tolten and Mack were alright to me, because they were able to deal out decent physical damage. Cooke and Jansen just became teaching tools to me as the game went on, but if I had the choice, I usually rolled with Tolten or Mack as my mortal.
Fimbulvetr said:
Is there any real difference between any of the characters. I mean, the license grids seem to be about the same, so the only thing I'm noticing different as I play XII is the quickenings.
--
As far as SO3 went, I thought everyone besides Fayt, Cliff, and Albel were useless. I think I only used Nel when I was forced to. The worst, for me, was the little gymnast carnival girl. Peppita? I don't think I EVER decided to use her.
Ah. You're right. I've always worked around this the same way I would with a cleric, by not leaving my bowladies exposed unless I don't think the enemies will be able to hit them. For what it's worth, you also have to handle mages this way since they have low HP and DEF.PBalfredo said:
Wyvern Lords do have low RES but they also have high HP, which makes that 3x bonus for bows come in handy. This is a nonissue if magic also gets bonus damage, but often that isn't the case.
Like you mentioned, the promoted classes that get bows as additional weapons won't have the weapon levels to use your silver bows and longbows, so they will mostly go to waste. I haven't played 7, 8, or PoR in a while so I can't comment on the specifics of which units are available to use bows that would make archers/snipers redundant. But in Shadow Dragon (unless there's a good class swap available) Barst is the only good axeman who's going to get axe levels, and since it seems like 70%+ of the enemies in that game carry a lance, even after promotion he's usually got some important axework to do. So it's still nice to have a dedicated ranged attacker.
I'll admit that I only played BoF3 once, quite some time ago, but I'm pretty curious about the defenses of Peco simply because I remember him being so thoroughly outclassed. Since he is mostly defended as being a tank, 1) does his damage potential ever become worthwhile, and 2) does he have any value in recovering other team members? Because I don't see the value of a tank in a traditional RPG that can't perform either of those functions well.
Also curious about the defense of Rafa and Malak - what exactly does "properly trained" in this case mean? IIRC the only was to make their abilities worthwhile was to use them in scenarios where you could use height to control to potential target tiles, and even then there were MUCH better random tile attacks (Tiamat).
Also curious about the defense of Rafa and Malak - what exactly does "properly trained" in this case mean? IIRC the only was to make their abilities worthwhile was to use them in scenarios where you could use height to control to potential target tiles, and even then there were MUCH better random tile attacks (Tiamat).
haircut said:
This sort of goes to the heart of the issue with me. Although archers clearly do have their use, even the most awesome Sniper is still a backline unit. Though mages may start off weak, they'll eventually grow into frontline units. Hell, in FE8 after just a bit of training, Lute can jump right into the fray well before becoming a Sage and toast everybody. But that's FE8
Generally real levels are earned when units are out there cutting down whatever enemy charges them. Backline units pick the scraps and level a lot slow than the others. That's fine for clerics and dancers since they're suppose to be safe out of reach of the enemy to begin with. However archers need to poke their heads out from time to time to kill someone, so they need the levels. Usually when promotion time comes around, most of my fighting units are moving on up but my archer is struggling to make it to level 15. By then I have enough units to pick and choose who to bring into battle and as the archer lags behind more, it looks more and more like he's taking up space in my party. So in subsequent games, instead of stringing along an archer I know I'll just end up phasing out, I ignore them in favor of giving exp to other preferred units.corrosivefrost said:
Yeah, they're okay. I just think that by the time you're in the endgame phase (specifically, after your team has reunited and you've learned a decent percentage of Sed's terribly broken skills with several of your immortals), it really doesn't matter who your fifth (mortal) party member is... they're all pretty inconsequential. By then your immortals will be racking up such incredibly strong skills that whoever you pick is going to be totally outclassed, so Tolten is as good or as bad a choice as any of the others.
Gruco said:
He has some minor healing abilities. He's not great at that -- he isn't on the level of Momo with healing. But he makes a decent supplement. His damage potential is good, yeah. He doles out pretty good damage with his attacks and, as mentioned, he counterattacks a lot. If you find the right mix of swappable skills to put on him as well, he makes a really, really potent addition to your team, and as I mentioned, the speed chain formation, if you use it, eliminates his speed deficiencies entirely.
Gruco said:
I was pretty sure I had written up some good summations back in the official thread for the PSP game and sure enough! One two three. It's not necessary, remember, to limit them strictly to their innate special abilities. And as a second point, it's not difficult at all to use height control to eliminate at least two of the five squares in most cases. If you work their stats and development properly, the damage they deal out with a couple squares eliminated can be substantial. Aside from that, even if you decide to take either one of them in an entirely different direction from their base classes, they're still always going to make for better characters than another generic male/female soldier controlling for level and taught skills. Tiamat is okay, but monsters are more of a novelty. Humans can best them with a wider range of support skills and equipment.
A little obscure here, but...
Trishtan from Suikoden IV.
Here you go, you're in the first few hours of the game, in the Kingdom of Obel. You meet the hypochondriac swordsman, Trishtan, whom is secretly given flour as treatment for his imaginary illness. The doctor knows he's perfectly healthy.
So I'm thinking "Oh, snap! This guy is a swordsman even when he's supposed to be ill, so he's going to realize he's fine, join me, and kick all sorts of ass!" Story event happens and Obel becomes unavailable. For almost the entire game. Finally, finally, Obel reopens up. I rush in, do the little sidequest and recruit Trishtan. He still thinks he's sick, but fine. I put him in a battle.
The man does no damage. He's an absolute tank and can hardly be scratched, but he can not for the life of him give his enemies so much as a papercut. And in a game where bosses usually last all of five minutes tops, what's useful about a tank? Bah.
Admittedly, he's way better in Suikoden Tactics, where his attack stat is not so nearly underdeveloped (and as such was one of my favorite party members), but I couldn't even stand to look at him in Suikoden IV.
Trishtan from Suikoden IV.
Here you go, you're in the first few hours of the game, in the Kingdom of Obel. You meet the hypochondriac swordsman, Trishtan, whom is secretly given flour as treatment for his imaginary illness. The doctor knows he's perfectly healthy.
So I'm thinking "Oh, snap! This guy is a swordsman even when he's supposed to be ill, so he's going to realize he's fine, join me, and kick all sorts of ass!" Story event happens and Obel becomes unavailable. For almost the entire game. Finally, finally, Obel reopens up. I rush in, do the little sidequest and recruit Trishtan. He still thinks he's sick, but fine. I put him in a battle.
The man does no damage. He's an absolute tank and can hardly be scratched, but he can not for the life of him give his enemies so much as a papercut. And in a game where bosses usually last all of five minutes tops, what's useful about a tank? Bah.
Admittedly, he's way better in Suikoden Tactics, where his attack stat is not so nearly underdeveloped (and as such was one of my favorite party members), but I couldn't even stand to look at him in Suikoden IV.
cartman414
Member
Lafiel said:
Joker in DQ3 can transfer directly to Sage without a book and is the only class that can do so. Thief -> Joker -> Sage = One quick spellcaster.
BrokenSymmetry said:
Unless they updated Dunham's AI, this is the only possible answer. All he ever did was cast Distortion over and over and over again! No attacks, no spells that could slightly assist you in battle. I personally blame Dunham for the negative stigma that all Mesmers have in Guild Wars PVE. No one is more useless.
If you're going to put a mage on the front lines I don't see why you can't do the same with an archer. Typically neither one is going to have much defense, and while archers will be prioritized by the AI higher than mages, mages will still be prioritized higher than practically everyone else. In FE8, Neimi will have an easier time surviving out there on the front against physical units than Lute will, since she has higher HP and won't kill every enemy that takes a shot at her leaving a space for the next guy to take a swing.PBalfredo said:This sort of goes to the heart of the issue with me. Although archers clearly do have their use, even the most awesome Sniper is still a backline unit. Though mages may start off weak, they'll eventually grow into frontline units. Hell, in FE8 after just a bit of training, Lute can jump right into the fray well before becoming a Sage and toast everybody. But that's FE8
It's true an archer is usually only going to get one kill a turn, but that's enough for me. I usually spread the kills out to keep my team balanced anyway. Do you really usually level your units by putting them in front of a wall of enemies? If that's the way you do it then I can see why they lag and why you don't like archers!
Anyway, I didn't have any trouble getting levels for my archers in 7, 8, or SD, but I always picked fast ones that could double. They all got to 20/20 without babysitting. Rolf was indeed a pain.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
gketter said:
I figured everyone played the game this way, guess not.
Rikku could be really bad ass if you made her a killer weapon. Her speed + instant death attacks...
edit: Mission from kotor was terrible and useless though. I enjoyed
making the wookie kill her.
I play pretty defensively. I generally keep my units pretty tight, move them together with my support units protected, plug a bottleneck or forrest and let the wave of mooks crash against me. As opposed to trying to blitz the enemy which I find separates my units too much due to movement speed. Calvary would outpace everyone, knights couldn't keep up to get any kills and no one would be around to protect support units in case of wyverns or unexpected reinforcements. So yeah, the guys holding the front end up gaining the most exp, though I do make an effort to keep it balanced when I can.
A good archer on the front line could survive or evade an enemy assault, but without being able to kill or even injure him, what's the point? Then the number of enemies outside of my formation builds up and then we really start to get in the situation where the guy I kill on the counter-attack has eleventeen buddies to take his place.
A good archer on the front line could survive or evade an enemy assault, but without being able to kill or even injure him, what's the point? Then the number of enemies outside of my formation builds up and then we really start to get in the situation where the guy I kill on the counter-attack has eleventeen buddies to take his place.
It may have been from everybody telling me how good he was but I have to go with Soren. My god the dude sucked, people told me he would be killing crap left and right and the dude couldn't kill shit. I used Tormod instead, now he was a damn good magician, doesn't beat Lugh from FE 6, but damn Soren just completely sucked for me. I tried to level him up but it just didn't happen.
Eh, I kind of wish I haven't played through FFT too many times to ever want to do it again because I think Rafa would be fun to try out. I'm not really sold though, particularly with Malek. And Tiamats are better than okay, the triple attacks are incredibly strong and have a 5 tile range and are much easier to manipulate targets.ethelred said:
Gruco said:
Well, I mean, honestly... it doesn't really matter if you're sold or not. I've played through the game multiple times and I've taken a variety of different approaches with both characters on different playthroughs, and I can categorically state that they're not useless, and that when trained properly they can be very powerful and flexible members of a team. And my point here wasn't to dismiss the viability of tiamats, just to refute the idea that these two characters are useless, because they aren't. As I said before, if you control for level and skills, any of the specialty characters is going to be flat-out better than any generic male/female soldier based on stat bonuses alone.