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Feminist Frequency: Gender Breakdown of Games Showcased at E3 2015
- Thread starter NoblesseOblige
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The rising number of gender-neutral games is definitely a good thing, almost half is really impressive honestly.
The "more female exclusive" games make sense, though. There's a fair amount of stigma to the idea of males playing as (and identifying with) females. And that's as women, not as gender-neutral-characters-in-female-shaped-bodies.
The "more female exclusive" games make sense, though. There's a fair amount of stigma to the idea of males playing as (and identifying with) females. And that's as women, not as gender-neutral-characters-in-female-shaped-bodies.
Not sure if sarcasm or not.
If not, Men don't have their own special story either. It is just a story that you can play as either a man or a woman
Could be. After I posted that I remembered that in Dirt 2 and 3 let you choose your name that was vocalized into the narration of the game. I can't recall if there was an option to have a woman's name.
SodiumBenzoate
Member
Wait, she included Yoshi as a male? Yoshi is asexual.
This is the kind of sloppy methodology that undermines your whole point to skeptics, regardless of the strength of the underlying point. You don't need to skew your data with stuff like this if your argument is strong enough.
(And by skeptics I don't mean GG-types, they clearly made up their mind long ago)
This is the kind of sloppy methodology that undermines your whole point to skeptics, regardless of the strength of the underlying point. You don't need to skew your data with stuff like this if your argument is strong enough.
(And by skeptics I don't mean GG-types, they clearly made up their mind long ago)
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Edit: Too late, someone beat me to it.
While I disagree with that there need to be more games with exclusively female leads, I do think that more games should market the female playable characters when the option is there. As the article points out, Dishonored 2 is the only game in which gender is a choice where the female character is used most prominently in marketing. And I have trouble thinking of other games where that's done.
DoktorEvil
Banned
She's the only one saying them and standing for them. I still respect her for doing it.
No one else has shown to want to make it a hot topic other than Anita, which I commend her for, but sometimes she reaches for things that are outside her depth(like the lazy association of gender to violence).
Male experiences being considered universal is probably one of the most non-debatable points Anita makes. Not just a gaming problem either, but in all mediums and throughout society. There's tons of studies and discussions out there to about this issue which pre-date FF, so it's not just something she's made up.
Please point out where she said having the option to choose is bad.
stump sock
Member
the general trend these days is heavily shaped by games like Bethesda games, Minecraft, open world survivor games, etc. it's a market that has proven that letting players craft their own stories is highly desirable. if you're making that kind of game and you don't even offer the option of gender/sex/race then you're already fundamentally missing a large part of the appeal of those games in the first place.
it's not because it's "safe" (at least, I hope it's not that cynical), but because it's what people want. and that's cool!
there's still obviously room for directly crafted stories, but if your game allows for a large degree of player agency, then that should also frequently extend to the actual player creation.
Fried Food
Banned
Well things aren't good enough..
When it comes to people being treated as equals, things will never be good enough.
Cheat Code
Member
Obviously.
She is raising awareness, applying pressure where she can. Her work will have impact, and change will occur.
The idea is that, eventually, it will make sense to market games more equally because public perception will have matured to allow for it.
Helios (a T10 rep) confirmed that you can in NeoGAF discussion.
Leafhopper
Banned
Dishonored 2.
Glad I am I guy who doesn't care about the gender of the character I am playing as. I can't wait for both of those games.
Glitchesarecool
Member
3 if you count FF7R!
Zekra Dezivad
Member
Choice is good, but not always of course.
There are games were the protagonist is an icon. Snake, Lara Croft, Nathan Drake, Kiryu, Bayonetta, etc...
I don't want a choice in every game, devs need to be free to concentrate the narrative on one character.
I like games where I can even create a character, but sometimes a well design character needs firm decisions in aestethic, personality, gender, abilities.
So every dev should be free to choose what they think it's better for their story, their game or even what they think is better financially. They're investing money, it' their right.
If they fail, it will be for their own business decisions.
If they take risks and they will be successful, they should be praised at 100%.
We should vote with our wallets.
I like the strong-female-lead in Horizon, the male-action-hero in uncharted and the sexy Bayonetta. I will always buy on a game per game basis, not on gender representation or anything else regards religion, skin, morality and who knows.
There are games were the protagonist is an icon. Snake, Lara Croft, Nathan Drake, Kiryu, Bayonetta, etc...
I don't want a choice in every game, devs need to be free to concentrate the narrative on one character.
I like games where I can even create a character, but sometimes a well design character needs firm decisions in aestethic, personality, gender, abilities.
So every dev should be free to choose what they think it's better for their story, their game or even what they think is better financially. They're investing money, it' their right.
If they fail, it will be for their own business decisions.
If they take risks and they will be successful, they should be praised at 100%.
We should vote with our wallets.
I like the strong-female-lead in Horizon, the male-action-hero in uncharted and the sexy Bayonetta. I will always buy on a game per game basis, not on gender representation or anything else regards religion, skin, morality and who knows.
If it were up to her, there would be no choice, given her comments about her disappointment regarding the ability to play Corvo.
Boom. I want to buy you a coffee.
Especially when talking about Bethesda, since grit, gore and violence is kind of their whole thing. There were a number of non-violent and non-organic violence (violence involving mechanical and inanimate objects) from the other companies, and featured prominently with the big three.
Doom
Uncharted
Wow. I'm at my limits. Someone will have to finish this task.
46% of games with the option for both genders is a solid number to hold onto.
Character creation is the new big thing nowadays.
But this irked me:
That is far from true and she should not present that as a fact.
yep.
Ignoring that combat offers great gameplay opportunities and this is why games that feature combat are the most successfull.
Being successfull means that you can afford to go to the E3.
There are tons of non violent less successfull games that exists, sell well and are not attending E3.
Also what's wrong with including sport and racing games? They are the perfect examples of games that offer non violent challenges.
This is why we cannot simply look at things from a strictly literary perspective, such as "Character A is a male going through plot points A, B, C." We must look at how one character's specific gender/sexuality interacts with the video gaming world and how that comes to change in gameplay. That is more telling of gender representation than simply stating that Game A has more diverse gender identities represented because we have two main characters.
Poor phrasing on my part. I meant to say that it seemed dismissive of any sort of progress based on the Twitter character limits, instead of "good enough".
For me these statistics make me optimistic about the future of representation in the industry. I would celebrate that before going on about what still needs to be done.
Krauser Kat
Member
No its not.
Through the feminist viewpoint, which she purposely views this through for the FemFreq. The more female only driven games pushes much harder against the status quo and pushes the whole platform in a progressive direction. Having two main characters pushes less and thus less progress.
This would only ever be considered misandry if we were already at a 50/50 split and complaining about male protagonist.
SinShep
Member
Hopefully it will someday, but that's not the case as of right now. So wondering why marketing are not doing the optimal thing today is redundant.
Why?
Are you male? Do you read books written by female authors, or watch films directed by female directors?
Being able to experience things from other perspectives than our own is an essential thing.
Wondering, sure, but calling them out for it is good. It's making it's known that there are people who would prefer it another way, and it's raising awareness.
Dongs Macabre
aka Daedalos42
Some people really seem to be focusing on the part about exclusively female characters. The point isn't that having both male and female protagonists is bad, it's that games that it is more acceptable to have a male protagonist than a female one. For story-driven games, sometimes there can only be one protagonist, and it's a problem when they are predominantly male. People are twisting what is being said to make it a negative thing, when it really isn't. For example, the FemFreq tweet about Dishonored 2 wasn't criticizing the game for having playable characters of both genders, they were just voicing her own disappointment at the game not focusing on Emily. Trying to cherry-pick certain parts of what is being said and then twisting into something sinister is dishonest and rather disappointing.
Of course it is. No one is saying there isn't any progress. There is just a long way to go before women are treated as equals in video games. Shutting people down who want better representation in games because there's "enough" progress is just ridiculous.
Of course it is. No one is saying there isn't any progress. There is just a long way to go before women are treated as equals in video games. Shutting people down who want better representation in games because there's "enough" progress is just ridiculous.
Littlefang
Member
I don't think the issue here is that games with female protagonists don't sell. It's more, developers don't even try to create games with exclusively female protagonists regardless of whether they'll sell or not.
I don't think it's that uncommon to want to identify with a character in a video game. I'm not saying this has to be the protagonist, but it's nice to see females (and other diverse attributes) in the main cast of a video game. I think this should be especially true for story driven games.
notworksafe
Member
Given FF's distinctly SWERF and TERF leanings I don't think we should be surprised they weren't counted.
I think it's a bit weird that they also feel the need to tackle this issue.46% of games with the option for both genders is a solid number to hold onto.
Character creation is the new big thing nowadays.
But this irked me:
That is far from true and she should not present that as a fact.
civilstrife
Member
lol what? Do you know how percentages work?
You are aware that including N/A games decreases the percentages of all other categories...right?
Also, the difference between 9% and 10.6%, (with and without N/A games) is enough to "render her argument null"?
I've seen plenty of feeble excuses to dismiss Feminist Frequency's work, but none of them reach quite so desperately hard as yours lol.
I don't disagree with the fact that a lot of mediums have an overwhelming issue with having male protagonists or a lack of strong written female characters. What I take issue is with the idea that all the male protagonists there are merely meant to be projected on. I feel like that's been deliberately not been clarified as to what she means by "projected", as the statement would fall apart then.
Has she ever stated what she means by "projected"?
I also take extreme issue with the fact that she's discounting games that let you pick. That would exclude stuff like Persona 3 Portable and Ys Origin, where there's significant differences between the male and female protagonists and both play to their strengths from a written standpoint.
You instigate change by applying pressure.
You don't alleviate the pressure because things have improved.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Only if you ignore developers would have been having these conversations three to four years ago without Anita's voice involved, and the results are a net positive.
The "Anita stands alone, for all women!" angle is why I find a lot of it sensationalist garbage. If the points she was making were backed up with extensive industry knowledge and a scientific approach, the findings would stand. Already however they're crumbling and so the message is being moved to the next supposed enemy that needs defeating.
I googled these terms and I still don't really know what they and your post mean tbh.
4, Bloodborne.
I'm getting Jack Thompson flashbacks.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
By their very nature, videogames make you incarnate their protagonist. It doesn't mean you magically agree with all his actions or anything, but you "become" the game's main character when you control him.
Somewhat and no. I personally am generally indifferent to the protagonist's gender (though many western developed games with a male protag are kind of off putting.) However if someone, for example, would rather play as a guy and will, as a result, choose a game where they play as a guy as opposed to one where they play as a girl, I see absolutely no problem with that.
that's interesting, why do you feel so?
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Mindwipe doesn't know what they mean either, otherwise he wouldn't have used them unless he was trying to go for irony or something.
SolidSnakex
Member
But when they are made they don't sell. This is especially true with new IP's. And that's why you don't see as many. Particularly in the current climate of games where development costs are so high that if a game bombs, then that could mean a studio is going to be closed. The question that no one really knows the answer to is whether those lack of sales are actually due to it being a female lead or other factors. Whether that be the gameplay being unappealing, a lack of marketing or something else. Those are the things that we really don't know.
Glitchesarecool
Member
I think we're counting games that were announced/shown at this year's E3.
MrCaliaztec
Member
That and with the induction of both character we have an opportunity to play the game twice where if Emily was the sole character you would basically be cutting their game in half... That does not progress the hobby... There's absolutely nothing wrong with both being playable
Also really? I can't think of any games in my 20+ years of gaming where being a female character was discouraged by stats or anything game defining besides games that state a different storyline based on gender of a main protagonist that is written as such.
I'm having trouble understanding why male protagonist should be considered an issue or having a choice of protagonists should not be counted towards having a female protagonist. The presented argument of "projecting yourself onto a female character" should apply in these situations.
Joe Lieberman here. I guess that means I'm old.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Except, like, the part where Thompson tried to legally ban violent videogames for everybody. I might be mistaken, but I don't think his personal opinion on games was what was the problematic part with Thompson.
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