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"The Power of the Cloud" - what happened?

Gunna cross post from the Crackdown thread:

People are still dismissing the cloud compute thing?

Really?

The foundation of the tech in no different than hosting a game on a dedicated server. You know that Minecraft multiplayer server you play on? That's all cloud computing. This is the exact same concept.

The physics of the destruction is calculated on the server, just like the Minecraft world is hosted on a server.

I don't understand why people find this hard to believe. We've been using the tech for years.

I don't think the naysayers will ever let this go.
As evidenced already, it matters not how impressive the game ends up, because the PS4 has a better GPU and PCs are faster all round, cloud computing is pointless and marketing PS . power of the cloud lol etc.
 
There are some disingenuous comparisons in here.

RFG had some stellar destruction, but let's not forget we're comparing a finished and released game to one that's potentially a year+ away from release.

Not to mention it feels like the RFG gifs have been selected to make the comparison seem more favourable to Crackdown. That's not to say CD doesn't look better or offer a more detailed level of destruction, but anyone who played RFG at length knows the destruction in the gifs isn't entirely representative of what the game offered.

We shouldn't be trying to downplay the incredible work that went into Geo Mod 2.0.

chgwbQY.gif

MGleQkS.gif

bytRjnq.gif

QpiiJub.gif


It's pretty hard to find gifs that are truly representative of the destruction that was possible in RFG.

Thank you, I've completed the game a couple of years ago.
The last gif is much better.
 
And there we have it.

Bump was to create a war. In essence, bait trolling.

Sad, because people ElTorro and Drek made some great posts in all of this pre-alpha[see: teen] dick waving noise.

implying this topic wasn't created to do the same thing. implying most of the posts in this topic aren't doing the same thing.

go complain to a mod instead.

this thread was full of people doubting the cloud in general, not specific multiples of power.
 
so pleople being sceptic on pr statments from a company well know to "lie" its now shit post

keep waving the green flag son



and bingo,its amazing how many people say things on this kind of post and are wrong...BU BU BU THE SCALE,it doesnt work t that way people


Obviously there is going to be a big effect on framerate if there is 2 billion calculations or 200,000. If the particles or more finely broken up and stay static in the environment, it will have some effect, but clearly in the demo he posted that is not the case.

As for your tirade against MS, this isn't Mattrick+Ballmer, Satya+Phil have been open about everything, so this argument doesn't even have wings anymore.
 
Huh? You can go to my profile to see my gamertag ...



Holding people responsible for what they say is not creating war, but I suppose, in order to paint those who are following up as bad guys, that's the mental gymnastics you have to perform.

i mean..this guy https://twitter.com/Ricckkyymymanne


As for your tirade against MS, this isn't Mattrick+Ballmer, Satya+Phil have been open about everything, so this argument doesn't even have wings anymore.

and still they said the infamous "20 the power on the one" on the AD
 
This is false.

The costs of such a hypothetical server would be so high, and the amount of issues with latency...

We can't get a server to render the power a low-end GPU to two dozen users.

Much less 20x the overall power of an Xbox for thousands of play sessions.

It is laughable and there is honestly not a precedent that it will happen any time soon.

The scale of the physics in that video just aren't viable.
No, no it's not.

Please explain how a single server can host thousands of players on a Minecraft world then?

The exponential increase would apply to upload, it would not apply to computing power.
 
implying this topic wasn't created to do the same thing. implying most of the posts in this topic aren't doing the same thing.

go complain to a mod instead.

It was a buried post that was necro'ed just to start the shit we have now. The topic was no longer relevant to GAF or even the first 10 pages of GAF.

Oh right... nvm, the gang of you piled in from the "relevant" current Crackdown thread after getting giddy about being open with the necro of it, and it is pretty much this:

Talking-to-Brick-Wall.jpg
 
It was a buried post that was necro'ed just to start the shit we have now.

Oh right... nvm, the gang of you piled in and it is pretty much this:

Talking-to-Brick-Wall.jpg

did you see my post on the previous page quoting all of those posters?

also refer to my previous suggestion.

it made sense to bump this thread, though. We have our first game majorly using it so this was an update to the thread.
 
The comments that any decent pc or ps4 could easily handle such large scale destruction is hilarious. Especially when we sprinkle in a couple graphics terms to make it feel legit. Oh, its about the edges and the particles really. The size and graphics have no bearing. A ps4 could do this all day. Yeah I bet. That's why devs are making games like this all the time oh wait....
 
It was a buried post that was necro'ed just to start the shit we have now. The topic was no longer relevant to GAF or even the first 10 pages of GAF.

So, just because a thread is a few months old it means the things people said in the thread aren't valid anymore and should just be forgotten?

When did this start? This is NeoGAF, right?
 
What's wrong with some healthy ribbing?

It makes for a much better and joyous community. Having people poked a little for the comments months later isn't going to hurt anyone...

It's a bit of fun. And there's a real look at what the cloud brings, which can ignite some interesting discussion, as we've already seen.
 
I read It only add 20% power so basically a Ps4 can run that natively, plus red faction looks still very good even from the beginning of the previous gen so not that impressive I think.

For those wondering why not full destruction on solo just picture a flat world.

It's what you'll end up with. It is a lot smarter for multiplayer where you just play the same map in the span of 30 min max.It's much more intelligent that way destroy it gets rebuilt.

Not 20%, 20 times. They are basically allocating a cluster 20 times more powerful than a xbone to do these calculations and then are sending the result back so the console can consume and display the data.
 
Thank you, I've completed the game a couple of years ago.
The last gif is much better.

Even that last gif isn't fully representative. The wrecking crew mode was just insane and that destruction on offer there does come pretty close to rivalling that we've seen in CD, but again, we're comparing a finished game to one that's still a year+ away from release and will undoubtedly improve significantly in that span of time.
 
The comments that any decent pc or ps4 could easily handle such large scale destruction is hilarious. Especially when we sprinkle in a couple graphics terms to make it feel legit. Oh, its about the edges and the particles really. The size and graphics have no bearing. A ps4 could do this all day. Yeah I bet. That's why devs are making games like this all the time oh wait....


oh boy this thread keeps giving..
 
It was a buried post that was necro'ed just to start the shit we have now. The topic was no longer relevant to GAF or even the first 10 pages of GAF.

Oh right... nvm, the gang of you piled in and it is pretty much this:

Talking-to-Brick-Wall.jpg

Wall of shame posts are generally in good fun, and usually last a day or so while everyone laughs at everyone who was wrong. We've all been there; it's part of making predictions on an online forum. I made the original thread making fun of Sega's 10 million sales for Sonic Olympics; many months later, I posted the crow thread and called out myself.

You can have a chuckle while making fun of yourself if you were on the wrong side of the prediction, or you can take it personally, double down, and post stuff like "the gang of you" like you're a victim of persecution.
 
The fact that you can allocate virtual servers and use them as you please was never disputed. The debate was about the scope of applicability of such servers to running a game, as well as the economic feasibility of doing that.

They have made destruction physics asynchronous and are running them on servers. Running basic physics, like collision detection, on servers is a standard procedure in online games. So that in itself is not extremely surprising. Running more complex destruction physics asynchronously certainly required some development effort and is surely not trivial. But to put that achievement properly in context, the following question have to be answered.

- How much processing power is actually used for these calculations per collapsing mash?
- Are collapsing buildings reused for all connected players in a shared online match, and if so, between how many players are they shared?
- What was the development effort of building and testing such a physics component?
- How expensive is it to run these servers?

Looking at what is happening in these gifs, I strongly suspect that the processing resources required for a single collapsing structure are way less than "20x". As others have said, that collapsing mash just does not look "20x" more complicated than similar things seen in other games. You could likely reach that number by aggregating everything that is happening at the same time in that shared online world. But if that world is shared by, lets say, 20 players, the figure loses its impact. "20x" for 40 players is less of a talking point than "20x" per player.

The more important point, though, is the question of development efforts and server costs. As I argued in earlier threads, it makes no sense to build such a thing, unless your game absolutely needs it, or you explicitly want to have a tech demo. It increases development costs and it creates server costs. Since destruction is something that has obviously already been done on much weaker hardware, a developer would, under normal circumstances, just create a physics components that scales well with the local hardware that is available. It's easier, cheaper, and creates virtually the same game. My prediction is that, for these reasons, this will remain an insular case.

So essentially, you've taken a bunch of assumptions , pulled them out of your ass, and use that shit sandwhich to devalue the technological accomplishment here...

Sure you may think it a waste to use cloud computing to handle physics simulation... But the fact is this studio couldn't have made the game they wanted to make if they were limited to local hardware...

Secondly, destruction is just one of many use cases for this tech.. This thread as a whole is about the potential for cloud computing in gaming in general. This demo showed that realtime results are possible.
 
The comments that any decent pc or ps4 could easily handle such large scale destruction is hilarious. Especially when we sprinkle in a couple graphics terms to make it feel legit. Oh, its about the edges and the particles really. The size and graphics have no bearing. A ps4 could do this all day. Yeah I bet. That's why devs are making games like this all the time oh wait....
Destructible environments lead to bad game design where player just smashed their way through level instead of going around. That's the reason devs don't do them. I droped Red Faction Guerilla because of this, it was boring, smashing through things with hammer gets old, fast.
 
No, no it's not.

Please explain how a single server can host thousands of players on a Minecraft world then?

The exponential increase would apply to upload, it would not apply to computing power.
Connecting a player to a minecraft server is way different than a server actually processing the intricate physics found in that video and sending it out to multiple unique play-sessions.
 
No, no it's not.

Please explain how a single server can host thousands of players on a Minecraft world then?

The exponential increase would apply to upload, it would not apply to computing power.

If there are a thousand plays on one block, the computer power is exponential as it has to compute all 1k players movements and update all of them at the same time.
 
oh boy this thread keeps giving..

I have a pc. I game on it way more than my xbox. I love it. But come on. Really? A decent pc and ps4? Really? This level of destruction isn't common. If it comes out like that gif, then it's unprecedented. And I can't imagine running it on a single box considering with how things are running currently with way less calculations.
 
I have a pc. I game on it way more than my xbox. I love it. But come on. Really? A decent pc and ps4? Really? This level of destruction isn't common. If it comes out like that gif, then it's unprecedented. And I can't imagine running it on a single box considering with how things are running currently with way less calculations.

yes you have a pc..me too,and two xbox ones and?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O04ErnJ8USY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgVshRfCQ4g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1FOnpzUzZY

read what the el torro said..its not the scale
 
So essentially, you've taken a bunch of assumptions , pulled them out of your ass, and use that shit sandwhich to devalue the technological accomplishment here...

Sure you may think it a waste to use cloud computing to handle physics simulation... But the fact is this studio couldn't have made the game they wanted to make if they were limited to local hardware...

Hm...

Secondly, destruction is just one of many use cases for this tech.. This thread as a whole is about the potential for cloud computing in gaming in general. This demo showed that realtime results are possible.

My argument is independent of the use case and did not devalue the technological accomplishment. If you read my post, you will find that I actually do the opposite. Reading it might also help you to engage in what I actually wrote.
 
as cute and microsoft and their 20x the power one the xbox one

http://www.theverge.com/2015/8/4/8765897/crackdown-gameplay-announcement-news-xbox-one-gamescom

using the Xbox One's cloud computing solution. The trailer claims the service provides 20 times more power than Microsoft's current console.

why 20? why no HIPERSPATIAL X TRILLION ?

Because it's the number Ms decided to allocate to each Big Compute online session for xbone.

It can be increased, but that's probably a safe bet that allow significant data to be processed on the cloud, but their current structure still being able to handle peak scenarios.
 
Wall of shame posts are generally in good fun, and usually last a day or so while everyone laughs at everyone who was wrong. We've all been there; it's part of making predictions on an online forum. I made the original thread making fun of Sega's 10 million sales for Sonic Olympics; many months later, I posted the crow thread and called out myself.

You can have a chuckle while making fun of yourself if you were on the wrong side of the prediction, or you can take it personally, double down, and post stuff like "the gang of you" like you're a victim of persecution.

I don't think anyone has been proven wrong, though. The game is still aways out, the footage was pre-alpha.... are the people touting the power of the cloud going to eat crow if the entire make up of this game does change? Will they eat crow if there are graphical downgrades? If the game works offline? It just seems premature to take PR at face value.
 
Wall of shame posts are generally in good fun, and usually last a day or so while everyone laughs at everyone who was wrong. We've all been there; it's part of making predictions on an online forum. I made the original thread making fun of Sega's 10 million sales for Sonic Olympics; many months later, I posted the crow thread and called out myself.

I agree, when it is warranted, this is still pre-alpha footage proving nothing of the sorts of any "victory" they were going for . Jumping the gun without any bullets still.

You can have a chuckle while making fun of yourself if you were on the wrong side of the prediction, or you can take it personally, double down, and post stuff like "the gang of you" like you're a victim of persecution.

Or you can read again what I said, go back to the other thread where they were deciding who was gonna bump this, then the same handful of people were ready and waiting to jump on people with words like, "salt", and "goal posts" and " you have nothing but, reasons."

I do not see any of those same handful of people looking for a healthy discourse, since not one of them quoted ElTorro or Drek with their rebuttal or "reasons". Just wanting to "quote and toss the salt".
 
BF3 and BF4 use Cloud Computing to calculate their destruction don't they? It's not some magical tech that only the XB1 can use. MS invested heavy in Azure infrastructure so it's good to see it being used well. Wonder how it will work with severe lag on the users side.
 
Connecting a player to a minecraft server is way different than a server actually processing the intricate physics found in that video and sending it out to multiple unique play-sessions.
You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the computation going on here.

A single server would easily be able to compute what's going on in these gifs. Tiptoe wrong if you're trying to deny that. When 16 people connect to server and play in the same world they're downloading the exact same data, that server only has to compute a single set of data for those 16 players.

Just like a Minecraft server hosting a world for 1000 people. The 1000 people are all receiving the same data, it's all being computed server side.

Saying we can't compute a low end gpu for a few dozen people is completely ridiculous.

If there are a thousand plays on one block, the computer power is exponential as it has to compute all 1k players movements and update all of them at the same time.

1000 player actions is very small compared to 1000 separate worlds.
 
as cute and microsoft and their 20x the power one the xbox one

http://www.theverge.com/2015/8/4/8765897/crackdown-gameplay-announcement-news-xbox-one-gamescom

using the Xbox One's cloud computing solution. The trailer claims the service provides 20 times more power than Microsoft's current console.

why 20? why no HIPERSPATIAL X TRILLION ?

Because this is Microsoft Azure, not Amazon EC2 :)

Joking aside, because there are reasonable limits to bandwidth and cost. Money does not grow on trees even for a billion dollar company like Microsoft, and while alotting a specific cluster of machines for a developer that partners with them is possible, they can't shift their entire Azure business model to one developer for one videogame.

But you know that. You have to be very dense or intentionally dishonest to not know that.
 
You can dismiss the "power of the cloud" if you so wish, but the only alternative is that a single XB1 is powering that Crackdown gameplay instead, which would be fairly remarkable.
 
Crackdown looked pretty rough, how can it be seen as fluff at this stage.

Much denial in this thread. The cloud compute is very real, the tech is there and it isn't exclusive to MS.

I love how everyone suddenly became armchair network game engineers.
 
I agree, when it is warranted, this is still pre-alpha footage proving nothing of the sorts of any "victory" they were going for . Jumping the gun without any bullets still.



Or you can read again what I said, go back to the other thread where they were deciding who was gonna bump this, then the same handful of people were ready and waiting to jump on people with words like, "salt", and "goal posts" and " you have nothing but, reasons."

I do not see any of those same handful of people looking for a healthy discourse, since not one of them quoted ElTorro or Drek with their rebuttal or "reasons". Just wanting to "quote and toss the salt".


Why would I quote them or care about their technical explanations when I can just wait and see? I don't know shit about cloud technology, so what's there for us to have a discourse about? Regardless of what they say, we have actual footage of it working, pre-alpha or not. But even when people were posting the video at the build conference, people were doubting it would be in Crackdown. We have pre-alpha footage and now they doubt it'll be at release.

The first page of this thread is nothing but people saying it doesn't exist at all in any really practical form, but this video proved them wrong. It may be pre-alpha but nobody can really doubt it now. There's no reason to even think it wouldn't be in the final game besides for being a "warrior."
 
Crackdown looked pretty rough, how can it be seen as fluff at this stage.

Much denial in this thread. The cloud compute is very real, the tech is there and it isn't exclusive to MS.

Get over yourselves. Seriously.

Most people are skeptical that is can provide 20X the power of the xbone not that it does not exist.
 
intentionally dishonest .

im not working on ms pr department

Most people are skeptical that is can provide 20X the power of the xbone not that it does not exist.

bingo..its not the "cloud doesnt exist" its the 20x the power on the xbox one thing that some people here want to use as a weapon on their funny console wars

but the hilarious thing its they are using a PR video of a prealpha as hey guys WE GOT THE PROOF.call me when the game is released fellas
 
yes you have a pc..me too,and two xbox ones and?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O04ErnJ8USY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgVshRfCQ4g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1FOnpzUzZY

read what the el torro said..its not the scale

He makes assumptions and genralizations we don't know. And the videos of extremly small scale physics demonstrations are interesting but irrelevant. Are they more complicated than just collapsing mesh? Obviously. But put that demonstration in a game world with live players and on a xbox or ps4. You can't. And that's our point coming back here, that it isn't just pr bs.
 
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