What are you reading? (August 2015)

Status
Not open for further replies.

TTG

Member
Sounds great! Have you read any of the others yet?

Nope, I don't follow new releases closely enough to have investigated the whole list thoroughly. Although, A Little Life is not off my radar, I just have to be in the right mood to start a 700+ page melodramatic thing.

Here's the thread we're discussing if anyone wants to chime in:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1086357&highlight=

I can vouch for A Brief History of Seven Killings, I know Mumei is caping up for A Little Life.
 

ryseing

Member
Just finished Devil in the White City. Loved it, learned way more then I expected to (had no idea where the Ferris Wheel came from) and was hooked for 90% of the time. The architecture discussions lost me but I realize they're important and were probably the fair's biggest impact on America. Alternating the fair stuff with the Holmes stuff was a good call as it provided a nice balance of well written history textbook with true crime. Anyway, I have some more free time over the next few days so I'm going to try to knock another book out. I want something a tad different but most of my stuff to read next list is thrillers focusing on killing so not sure if that's the right way to go post Devil. Does GAF have any feelings on The Gracekeepers? I keep having it recommended to me since I loved Station Eleven (the Amazon blurb even says as much) but I dunno.

I'm about 20% of the way through Hyperion by Dan Simmons and wow, it's excellent.

Oh, it's great. Made my way through the entire cantos earlier this summer and don't regret doing so. Some of the higher level stuff lost me later but the core story is good enough that I muddled through.
 

Piecake

Member
23475416._UY200_.jpg


I am currently listening to this and it is really quite fascinating. In high school I basically learned that the reformation happened, Germany turned Lutheran and a whole bunch of religious wars happened after that. I honestly feel cheated now since it is just such an interesting period that I would have would have read more about a whole lot sooner if my class actually went into it in greater detail besides just speeding through the history event highlights and pretending that is actually 'learning' something. I mean, a whole bunch of crazy, fascinating shit is happening in this period, and my class back then did a really really poor job of getting that across. I swear, I think it most be some sort of goal to make broad survey courses as dull as possible.

I mean, I barely learned anything about how it developed in high school (though it has been a long while, so I could have forgotten), but this was an incredibly important period that really paved the way for a Luther. Many people were receptive to a new conception of faith and a closer relationship with God due to The Black Death, The Babylonian captivity, the Papal Schism and church corruption and incompetence. This can be easily seen in the widespread anti-clericalism during the period, but also an increase in religious faith and commitment amongst the common people. This can be seen with the expansion and development of practices by the people to bring them in a closer relationship with God, something that they felt was lacking in the Roman Church at this time. Some examples are rosary beads, religious confraternities, popularization of the Mother Mary, etc. It can also be seen in the Northern Humanists like Erasmus.

I think this explanation for why Lutheranism became so popular is a lot more convincing than some Northern German princes went along with it and boom, the people were protestant. Luther, like many people, were struggling with their faith at the time and Luther provided an answer that spoke to a lot of people. I have to say, Rome's reaction to Luther's early complaints were just ridiculous. Kinda curious if the Roman church could have avoided such a huge split if the Pope didnt proclaim infallibility and the supreme authority over religious doctrine and practices. That is also something that I really never learned, the real detailed history of how the split slowly widened and then all of the social, political upheaveals that the Reformation had a part in. I am not quite sure if they were the cause in all of them, but it was certainly invoked as the reason or used as legitimacy for many of them.

Another pet-peeve. I learned that the anabaptists were one of the first groups who advocated the separation of church and state in high school. One huge problem, that completely misinterprets their beliefs! Separation of Church and State has a specific meaning for us, and it sure as shit wasnt what the anabaptist believed (I actually thought they held some progressive and liberal views!). They beleived that secular governments were corrupt and should be avoided at all costs by not paying taxes to it, not serving in the military and not serving in government office. The church most be kept pure and without sin from such vile influences. That sure doesnt sound like the Enlightenment notion of the separation of church and state.

Bad high school history class, bad!
 
Finishing The Stand by King.
Love most of his works, especially Dark Tower series.
The only complaint so fat is that I expected far more DT references and such.
That said the villain himself is big enough, but you know.
 

Apt101

Member
That sounds good Piecake. I was planning on using my next Audible credit on some kind of fiction with a lot of production value (multiple actors, sound effects, etc), but I think I'll do another Great Courses instead.
 

Alucard

Banned
23475416._UY200_.jpg


I am currently listening to this and it is really quite fascinating. In high school I basically learned that the reformation happened, Germany turned Lutheran and a whole bunch of religious wars happened after that. I honestly feel cheated now since it is just such an interesting period that I would have would have read more about a whole lot sooner if my class actually went into it in greater detail besides just speeding through the history event highlights and pretending that is actually 'learning' something. I mean, a whole bunch of crazy, fascinating shit is happening in this period, and my class back then did a really really poor job of getting that across. I swear, I think it most be some sort of goal to make broad survey courses as dull as possible.

I mean, I barely learned anything about how it developed in high school (though it has been a long while, so I could have forgotten), but this was an incredibly important period that really paved the way for a Luther. Many people were receptive to a new conception of faith and a closer relationship with God due to The Black Death, The Babylonian captivity, the Papal Schism and church corruption and incompetence. This can be easily seen in the widespread anti-clericalism during the period, but also an increase in religious faith and commitment amongst the common people. This can be seen with the expansion and development of practices by the people to bring them in a closer relationship with God, something that they felt was lacking in the Roman Church at this time. Some examples are rosary beads, religious confraternities, popularization of the Mother Mary, etc. It can also be seen in the Northern Humanists like Erasmus.

I think this explanation for why Lutheranism became so popular is a lot more convincing than some Northern German princes went along with it and boom, the people were protestant. Luther, like many people, were struggling with their faith at the time and Luther provided an answer that spoke to a lot of people. I have to say, Rome's reaction to Luther's early complaints were just ridiculous. Kinda curious if the Roman church could have avoided such a huge split if the Pope didnt proclaim infallibility and the supreme authority over religious doctrine and practices. That is also something that I really never learned, the real detailed history of how the split slowly widened and then all of the social, political upheaveals that the Reformation had a part in. I am not quite sure if they were the cause in all of them, but it was certainly invoked as the reason or used as legitimacy for many of them.

Another pet-peeve. I learned that the anabaptists were one of the first groups who advocated the separation of church and state in high school. One huge problem, that completely misinterprets their beliefs! Separation of Church and State has a specific meaning for us, and it sure as shit wasnt what the anabaptist believed (I actually thought they held some progressive and liberal views!). They beleived that secular governments were corrupt and should be avoided at all costs by not paying taxes to it, not serving in the military and not serving in government office. The church most be kept pure and without sin from such vile influences. That sure doesnt sound like the Enlightenment notion of the separation of church and state.

Bad high school history class, bad!

Nice. I'd be interested in reading this at some point.
 
238727.jpg


I think my latest reading series should be called "Free Kindle Books on Amazon" because that's what I'm enjoying these days. It's all those books from the 1890s, 70's, in the public domain stuff that you always mean to read but never do.

Book itself is strange, it's political propaganda for the creation of Yosemite. I've been to the area so it's neat to hear him describe it in the wild, talk about sheep herding, and describe nature in a beautiful religious prose that I'd never seen before. He's smart enough to space it out and not just go on forever, but there are a lot of parts where he is talking about the divine power of squirrels that make you sorta wonder about him.

I was surprised by how much John Muir disliked Indians. It's...fairly racist in that regard. It's 1868 so I think you just have to accept the time period he's in, but he is always going on about how dirty they are compared to wild animals and how they eat grubs, yada yada.
 
Finished Easy Delicious Italian Sauces: Make Your Own Authentic Italian Sauces

Good book on the sauces. The writer has us make the Espangnole Sauce (30 minutes), Veloute Sauce (30mins), or the Bechamel Sauce (2hrs) to be used as bases for other sauces in the book. Which can be further used to make tasty Tomato Sauce Piquante, Neopolitan Sauce, Roman Sauce, and Pasta Marinata. My only issue with most is the cost really gets up there due to the wines needed and well how often would one have Italian a week, but otherwise it is a nice take to go this route instead of the jars of Presto and any white sauce is better handmade than out of the jars, they are all disgusting to me or worst too watery. Nice recipes to try on a weekend for changing up the routine in our daily lives.
 

Piecake

Member
I think it's an audiobook. I think Audible is paying this Piecake fella.

Sadly, I am paying them :(

That sounds good Piecake. I was planning on using my next Audible credit on some kind of fiction with a lot of production value (multiple actors, sound effects, etc), but I think I'll do another Great Courses instead.

Nice. I'd be interested in reading this at some point.

One issue with the audiobook is that he seems to have a lot more passion and knowledge when discussing the reformation and Northern Humanists. I assume that is true for the period going forward as well considering that his main research is in 17th century Dutch stuff, I think. (I looked him up a few days ago so memory could be a bit fuzzy). I listened to a Renaissance great courses course before this and I noticed a few errors. I don't think it is that big of a deal since his broad themes and important shit seems in-line with the Renaissance audiobook. I would just keep that in mind.

For example, one thing is that he claims that Cosimo de Medici and Sforza of Milan were in cahoots from the beginning, and that Sforza of Milan was a paid mercenary of Cosimo. The Renaissance audiobook does not mention this at all, and states that Sforza was a mercenary of the former dictator of Milan, that the people invited him in to protect Milan after the chaos of the Dictators death, then kicked him out after he solved everything. Sforza got pissed and just decided to become the next Dictator. That is certainly a big difference between the two audiobooks. Personally, I am going to trust the Renaissance professor, but I am not 'sure' which one is totally correct. Still, in the long-scheme of things, that sort of little discrepencacies do not matter too much since who really cares whether or not Sforza was in league with Cosimo from the beginning? It has no real signficant long-term consequences for Italy, the development of humanism and the Renaissance. And both professors agree on those big trends, reasons, development, etc. So yea, I would still definitely recommend the great courses course, but I just thought I should point that out.
 

survivor

Banned
Some stuff I finished reading the past couple of weeks. I have been trying to read mostly translated works, explore other countries works.

tedtGEO.jpg
fFNqScf.jpg
q0zZoIU.jpg


First book I finished was The Dream of My Return. I found it to be an entertaining novel about an exiled Journalist in Mexico wishing to return to his come country, El Salvador. I wasn't sure what to expect of the book, it's sort of a political story, but focuses more on the journalist's past in a country embroiled in civil war and his current paranoia as he prepares to move back.

Also finished reading How I Became a Nun. I heard quite a bit about Cesar Aira, very prolific Argentinian author. Looking at his body of works, he seems to write a new book every year. This story was a bizarre examination of the life of a kid with very active imagination, that blends reality and fiction into a morbid conclusion. I quite enjoyed it, read a bit more about Cesar Aira philosophy of writing here and I'm very interested in reading his other works now.

The other book I read was The Tenant. Surreal story of a man moving to a new apartment and his interactions with his hostile neighbours. I felt it would have worked more as a visual story instead, especially with the later parts of novel with its horror like imagery. But it was still good, really liked the twist cyclic ending.
 

Mumei

Member
I think I'm going to read Kokoro after Falling Free (hey Mumei! hey! listen!).

Curious to see what you think. It made a real impression on me back when I was 14 or 15, and I haven't read it since. I really should read it again...

Anyway, I'm through Sonnet 26 of Shakespeare's Sonnets now. I've decided that I'm going to ignore the notes and just read through the sonnets and see what I think, and then go back through and read the notes. I read the notes for the first few and while they are interesting and sometimes clarifying, I find that it obscures the experience of seeing some of the connections sonnet to sonnet for myself.

I've also finished A Wild Sheep Chase, and am about a quarter of the way through Augustus, which is at least as good as I remembered. A Wild Sheep Chase made much more sense than I remember it making the first time I read it. I also noticed what I presume are references to the previous books (they're rather on the nose), so I suppose I'll have to make reading that new book a priority before I forget everything.
 
Just finished this. Liked it better than Warbreaker. Very short read. I wished it was a lot longer.

13578175.jpg


Will take a short break from Brandon Sanderson and try this for a change..

prince-of-thorns-by-mark-lawrence.jpeg
 

TTG

Member
Read Disgrace by Coetzee today. Don't really know why I finished except the quality of the prose kept me going through the first half and it's only just over 200 pages in total. So here's a verdict: trash. We start with the merely irredeemably miserable to graduate to the land of lough out loud, train wreck bad. I don't care how many awards it won, it's garbage.
 

Jintor

Member

thomaser

Member
The other book I read was The Tenant. Surreal story of a man moving to a new apartment and his interactions with his hostile neighbours. I felt it would have worked more as a visual story instead, especially with the later parts of novel with its horror like imagery. But it was still good, really liked the twist cyclic ending.

I recommend that you see the movie too.
 

Peru

Member
Read Disgrace by Coetzee today. Don't really know why I finished except the quality of the prose kept me going through the first half and it's only just over 200 pages in total. So here's a verdict: trash. We start with the merely irredeemably miserable to graduate to the land of lough out loud, train wreck bad. I don't care how many awards it won, it's garbage.

One of my all time favorite novels. What was wrong?
 
Two fantastic books are on sale for $1.99 on Amazon today. Ask the Dust and The Son. Ask the Dust is one of my favorite books. Its a progenitor to Bukowski and Hunter S Thomson. Its about a proud and enthusiastic but morally questionable young man in 1930s Los Angeles. The Son is about three generations of a ranching family in Texas from the mid 1800s to the 1980s. Both books are great and a steal at $1.99. (Note: Ask the Dust is technically book 3 of the Arthur Bandini saga but there's practically zero continuity other than it being the same character so you can read this as a stand alone)


Ask the Dust by John Fante


The Son by Philipp Meyer
 

mu cephei

Member
Read Disgrace by Coetzee today. Don't really know why I finished except the quality of the prose kept me going through the first half and it's only just over 200 pages in total. So here's a verdict: trash. We start with the merely irredeemably miserable to graduate to the land of lough out loud, train wreck bad. I don't care how many awards it won, it's garbage.

I thought it was amazing. Why did you think it that bad?


Ashley's War: The Untold Story of a Team of Women Soldiers on the Special Ops Battlefield by Gayle Tzemach Lemmon

It was on sale on the Kindle Store as part of the Daily Show ending thing.

Speaking as a non-American who has no nationalism-based investment in American wars (or as a non-Afghani who has no real relation to wars fought on their territory), and as someone who doesn't necessarily automatically buy into the soldier worship complex America seems to have going, I rather enjoyed it.

Just saw this on io9 and marked it down, along with some of the others. Good to know it's enjoyable.

I'm currently reading Augustus, and it is heaven.
 

TTG

Member
One of my all time favorite novels. What was wrong?

Peeling away layers of the shitty onion that is Lucy's predicament and her character in general would take so much more time than I'm willing to devote to this book. You didn't find it cheap and an all out farce at the end? There's playing on a father's worst fears and then there's Disgrace. It almost comes off as some sort of Reefer Madness for home defense inflamed to a nightmare pitch, written to forward the main character's journey. A journey that the book is already so slavishly serving to that Lucy is only one of like a triumvirate of female characters that are created explicitly to forward said journey. It's late and I'm rambling, but this book is ridiculous.
 

Necrovex

Member
I thought it was amazing. Why did you think it that bad?



Just saw this on io9 and marked it down, along with some of the others. Good to know it's enjoyable.

I'm currently reading Augustus, and it is heaven.

Finished the first half of Augustus and I am really enjoying the journey and framing of the narrative. I caught a nasty cold, which may explain why I am not as in love with the second part. May hold off on reading more until I stop shooting snot from my nose. Do any of y'all ever read when sick?
 

Hanzou

Member
Just finished this. Liked it better than Warbreaker. Very short read. I wished it was a lot longer.

13578175.jpg


Will take a short break from Brandon Sanderson and try this for a change..

prince-of-thorns-by-mark-lawrence.jpeg

I have heard a lot of less then stellar things from people on this thread about warbreaker, but I loved it. I am not sure why I did but I just really enjoyed the story and got engaged with the characters of it. I read emperors soul and have to say it was truly amazing. Easily the best Sanderson book of his I have read.
 

Protome

Member
I have heard a log of less then stellar things from people on this thread about warbreaker, but I loved it. I am not sure why I did but I just really enjoyed the storyline of it. I read emperors soul and have to say it was truly amazing. Easily the best Sanderson book of his I have read.

I enjoyed Warbreaker, it just felt far too padded out. It could have easily been half as long and told the same story more effectively.
 

Peru

Member
Peeling away layers of the shitty onion that is Lucy's predicament and her character in general would take so much more time than I'm willing to devote to this book. You didn't find it cheap and an all out farce at the end? There's playing on a father's worst fears and then there's Disgrace. It almost comes off as some sort of Reefer Madness for home defense inflamed to a nightmare pitch, written to forward the main character's journey. A journey that the book is already so slavishly serving to that Lucy is only one of like a triumvirate of female characters that are created explicitly to forward said journey. It's late and I'm rambling, but this book is ridiculous.

I don't think a father's worst fears or his journey as a father are central themes to the book, never mind ones the book are slavishly serving. It's about colonialism and the white man's rape of the world, and the consequences that follow. The consequences Lucy chooses to accept and David doesn't, at least at first. The balance of power between black and white in South Africa post-apartheid. People as animals, animals as people. I find it hard to answer your questions because I don't think they're relevant to reading this book.
 

mu cephei

Member
Finished the first half of Augustus and I am really enjoying the journey and framing of the narrative. I caught a nasty cold, which may explain why I am not as in love with the second part. May hold off on reading more until I stop shooting snot from my nose. Do any of y'all ever read when sick?

I'm not at the halfway point yet. I really hope it's because you're ill :p

In other news, pfft @ the Guardian's A Little Life review.
 

Hanzou

Member
I have seen it discussed here in the past but what is the best version/yranslation of Count of Monte Cristo? My library has a bunch of different ones. Is it the penguin classics version?
 

MrOogieBoogie

BioShock Infinite is like playing some homeless guy's vivid imagination
361px-neuromancer_book.jpg


Just finished Neuromancer. Thought it was just okay. Some cool moments and passages, particularly the ones that actually take place within cyberspace. However, between those sections is an often convoluted and confusing narrative, and I found it difficult to process just what was going on at times. None of the characters are very compelling, either, so it's hard to really care about what is happening because you're not invested in anyone.

Going to read Orson Scott Card's Seventh Son next. Not sure what to expect with the pulpy cover, but it's strongly recommended by a friend with nostalgia for the series.
 

Alucard

Banned
361px-neuromancer_book.jpg


Just finished Neuromancer. Thought it was just okay. Some cool moments and passages, particularly the ones that actually take place within cyberspace. However, between those sections is an often convoluted and confusing narrative, and I found it difficult to process just what was going on at times. None of the characters are very compelling, either, so it's hard to really care about what is happening because you're not invested in anyone.

Going to read Orson Scott Card's Seventh Son next. Not sure what to expect with the pulpy cover, but it's strongly recommended by a friend with nostalgia for the series.

Yay. Someone else who had a tepid experience with Neuromancer. I pretty much echo your sentiments about not caring about anyone or anything going on.
 

Hanzou

Member
361px-neuromancer_book.jpg


Just finished Neuromancer. Thought it was just okay. Some cool moments and passages, particularly the ones that actually take place within cyberspace. However, between those sections is an often convoluted and confusing narrative, and I found it difficult to process just what was going on at times. None of the characters are very compelling, either, so it's hard to really care about what is happening because you're not invested in anyone.

Going to read Orson Scott Card's Seventh Son next. Not sure what to expect with the pulpy cover, but it's strongly recommended by a friend with nostalgia for the series.

I kind of feel the same way. I actually read the first few chapters and then stopped reading it, started over again about 1 year late. I also got confused at times with what was happening The final section that was super confusing. I had trouble with here was doing what, where things were happening etc. I think I gave it 3 stars as I see what it did for the cyberpunk genre.
 

Mumei

Member
I have seen it discussed here in the past but what is the best version/yranslation of Count of Monte Cristo? My library has a bunch of different ones. Is it the penguin classics version?

Yes.

I'm not at the halfway point yet. I really hope it's because you're ill :p

In other news, pfft @ the Guardian's A Little Life review.

pfft, indeed.

I found her claim that, "But such narration is distancing: it leaves us watching what Jude feels, rather than actively sharing in his confusion, pain, suffering," to be poorly supported. There are certainly people who felt that way, and I think that if someone described the narration in the abstract way that she does, I would think that it shouldn't work. But it very clearly does for many people - she even admits several times that the emotional effect works for her. But then she simply just asserts that it does not work as a fait accompli.

It's something of a mirror image of the assertions made in the New Yorker review; that review argues that the book starts as something more ordinary, and becomes something more subversive. This is what she has said she was going for in interviews; she wanted the beginning to be a recognizable study of a genre, with the interiority of healthier characters like Malcolm and J.B. contrasting with Jude's. Instead, Churchwell argues, "As its focus on Jude intensifies, the novel stops being what made it unusual". But it makes no sense. Everyone - including Churchwell! - has made comparisons to Mary McCarthy's The Group. Her critique just doesn't make any sense; she contradicts the argument she makes herself.

And I think it's just a bad reading in general; she repeatedly makes claims that simply aren't true. It is not the case that, for instance, "the people who love him are as endlessly occupied by his psychodrama as he is." It's as if she forgets that we're seeing their lives as they relate to his life, and not the totality of those characters' lives.

But yes, mediocre review.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
The book does the reverse, beginning with something truer and less constraining, before reverting to the familiar.
crazy.gif
crazy.gif
crazy.gif
crazy.gif
 

Piecake

Member

It took a while, but I finally finished this book. I thought some of it was incredibly interesting, informative and insightful and other parts incredibly boring. I really don't think this is an indication of the quality of the book. I think this is an indication of my own personal interests in history since the book is written thematically instead of as a narrative.

For example, I found the chapters on the development of the Qin and Han state, the policies they pursued, and the consequences of those policies on society, the economy, and the state's actual power and future prospects to be fascinating. The rise of landlordism is a very good example, during the Qin and Early Han the state based its state around individual peasant plots and crushed landlordism and other bases of power in order to strengthen the power of state by being able to collect taxes more easily, and then use these peasants in their massive standing armies to conquer and crush their enemies.

That all started to change during the mid Han when the Empire needed more money to finance expensive campaigns and other things so he started demanding taxes in cash and taxed merchants at twice the rate. Well, this hurt the peasants quite a bit and basically further and further put them into debt. Merchants started buying up land to avoid taxes, and bam, landlordism. Another huge factor was technology. The iron plow, leather harness, and irrigation and well works increased crop yields significantly, but the initial investment was significant and poor farmers really couldnt compete. Interestingly, the author makes the point that landlordism might have actually been a benefit to the peasants because the demands of landlords were not nearly as severe as what European serfs face and these Chinese serfs got access to the new technology that signficantly increased crop yields.

Still, landlordism was bad for the Han state because eventually these landlords were able to create huge lineage structures that basically took control over areas in the Eastern Han, and they were the ones able to pay and field armies (along with other groups like the actual army who was now not beholden to the Han state either), and bam, we get regional struggles, fighting, and the break up of the Han state. It was already super weak at this point, but the fighting seems to have been kicked off by peasant revolts since they were just getting squeezed thanks to a weak state, competing powers and some lineages and landlords nad local power bases that actually squeezed them hard (obviously some were greedy fucks) and bam, war and chaos.

I also found the chapters on the city and the countryside absolutely fascinating as well since it dealt with social groups, their daily lives and how the state and society saw and interacted with them. I think that is one of the hardest things to continue to remember about history. It is easy to just get wrapped up in the political narrative and the major themes and just kinda assume that society is basically ruler, peasant, craftsman, and merchant. Ruler rules, peasant works on farm, craftsman makes shit, and merchants trade food and crafts throughout the nation and world. Society is a lot more complex than that though and I think it is interesting to read about their daily lives. For example:

The Market's violence and criminality were generally associated with butchers and 'wicked youths' but most importantly with 'wandering swordsmen' or gangsters--men who devoted themselves to an ethic of vengeance, faithfulness to oaths, and devotion to death. The Poems on Han capitals place these men ad ntheir gangs of sworn followers in the markets. The histories situate them in the alleys and wards of the major cities. like other denizens of the market, they are described as acting for porofit, in this case as bandits, kidnappers, grave robbers, and hired assassins rather than merchants. Gangsters formed associations of professional killers who intimidated or bribed officials. Memorials written in the Easten Han described them as the creators of a private law based on vengeance that threatened to supplant the states legal codes...

In peacetime, 'wicked youths' were portrayed as wastrels with no proper occupations, who passed their time in the market gambling, cock fighting, and coursing hounds These activities were so common that they were depicted on tomb tiles. In times of disorder, however, these urban gangs formed a reservoir of recruits for those engaged in large-scale vendettas or rebellion. The biographies of many leaders in the Uprising against the QIn show that their first followers were recruited from among the youths.

The final social element that gathered in the market and challeneged the authority of the state comprised the masters of esoteric techniques, particularly divines and shaman doctors. This group was accused of claiming supernational powers in order to swindle peasants. And because divination, medicine, and related religouis practices were a source of wealth, the group was denounced for luring idle young people away from proper occupations and into their own disreputable pursuits.

I think that sort of gives a vitality and a sense of it actually being a real and complex society that often is lacking in many history that doesnt really deal with social history.

The part on rural society was also fascinating since it discussed, as mentioned before, technological changes like improved irrigation and well-building, the iron plow, fertilizes, better agricultural practices, oxen nose ring, combined plow and seeder. This increased agricultural production, increased trade, fostered urbanization, which further increased trade, crafts, and new ideas due to a culture of urbanization. I really think that agricultural production is definitely one of the most important themes throughout history.

As for a peasant working under a landlord being better off:

If a newly landless peasant was lucky enough to remain a tenant share-cropper, he would have the use of land, tools, oxen and a house in excahnge for 1/2 to 2/3rds of his crop. If, as often happened, he was removed from the local registers by his master and therby escaped tax and corvee labor, his life probvabl improved. With his rent set as a fixed percentage of his harvest, he could escape misery in all but the worst years, while avoiding the need to convert crops into cash to pay poll tax to the state. He also had access to oxen and tools that he could never have afforded on his own.

Another interesting quote:

Of all textiles , silk was the most precious. While large-scale production of cloth in workshops owned by the state of great families used some male labor, many woprkers in such enterprises were women. Han records refer to great families that employed as many as 700 women to weave silk cloth both for use by the mistress or the house and for sale.

I think that is really interesting since we really don't associate that sort of large scale production like that in the west until industrialization. Obviously it happened before that since in Renaissance Italy there was a huge wool industry that employed like half the town, but you really don't hear about that in the middle ages (likely to due to no urbanization). Did that sort of stuff happen in Rome as well? Honestly curious.

A major difference between Rome and Han was how rural society developed. Rome had huge tracts of land that used slave labor. In the Han, they divided and subdivided their holdings:

The ambition of the great families was not simply to amass land and wealth, but rather to use this land and wealth to build up extensive networks of kin, clients, and neighbors whose loyalties they could command

I remember reading that Rome also had a client-patronage relationship thing, so I don't think the dichotomy is totally true, but it seems certain that Han China practiced a whole hell of a lot more of it since they instituted that sort of thinking into their property, inheritance and society, and not just personal relationships.

Most locally powerful lineages divded themeslves into many- in some cases hundreds-of nuclear households. They then dominated their districts, commanderies, or regions through alliances of these households and marrage ties with other great surnames...

This is also one of the major reasons why China developed the legal practice of wiping out lineages for major crimes. Lineages were stupidly powerful and loyal and had a code of vendetta as well, that a lineage should take revenge on whoever wronged them. Officials who sentenced a member of the lineage was sometimes killed by other members of the lineage in revenge. So, the state wasn't being totally oppressive and cruel, but actually situating itself into the society and culture of the nation (and also ensuring its power).

Obviously, the Han saw these massive lineages as a huge threat to their power and obviously they were not really able to do anything about it. The Eastern Han was basically established by powerful lineages so they didnt even really try.

It wasnt all bad for the peasants because:

Village society was constituted in reciprocal obligations created by the regular exchange of figts or services. Richer members were under moral pressure to distribute their weath among their pooer neighbors, in exchange for which they received status and certain customery forms of service. This pattern of reduceing inequalities, as well as establishing moral and emotional links, was still visiale in late imperal and republican China, where wealthier families sponsored feasts, operas and relgious festivals that secured their own status and gained the support of their neighbors.

The rest of the chapters dealt with more cultural history, such as kinship, literature, religion and law (obviously kinship and law arent really cultural history, but I still found them rather dull). And I was a lot less interested in these areas. I struggled to get through these chapters.

Still, glad I read it and can actually refer back to this book if I ever want or need to look up early chinese history. Quite a lot of information in the book. And I do plan on reading the rest of the series, so I would recommend it if you are interested in getting a much more detailed knowledge of Chinese history. Just be prepared to skim over some chapters that you arent really interested in. Quite a lot of info in my post as well, so I am not sure how many people are going to read it, but I mostly did it for myself anyways ;)
 
51zSB1kzXfL._SX329_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


Just finished this. I really, really, enjoyed it. It had some slow moments and started to drag a little toward the middle-end, but recovered and actually had a decent ending. Pretty long too. I started a few weeks ago, went to a week-long conference where I had a lot of reading time, and still didn't finish it until this weekend.

I'm not a fan of horror so I always avoided Stephen King books, but I have to say I'm a fan of Stephen King now.

Not sure what I'll read next, although I'm not sure I want to get into a large book again just yet.
 
Got back into Roberto Bolano's The Savage Detectives

Part 2 of the book definitely takes some warming up to, but I'm about 340 pages in and I'm completely hooked. I think part of the problem, early on, is that with this oral-history framework there are so many characters, many never introduced before, who give very short snippits describing "he" characters--I don't know who "he" is meant to be when up till now there are three primary male characters. In these short snippets, there isn't enough room for the character's voice to ring out in a memorable way (I'm still not sure if that's a product of the original work, or the translation).

After awhile, that all starts to clear up and characters get longer, more detailed sections where their voices start to come alive. Many of these segments past the 250 page mark have hit me really hard in a deeply meaningful way. If things continue like this, I'm looking at a 5 star book, lull be damned.
 
51zSB1kzXfL._SX329_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


Just finished this. I really, really, enjoyed it. It had some slow moments and started to drag a little toward the middle-end, but recovered and actually had a decent ending. Pretty long too. I started a few weeks ago, went to a week-long conference where I had a lot of reading time, and still didn't finish it until this weekend.

I'm not a fan of horror so I always avoided Stephen King books, but I have to say I'm a fan of Stephen King now.

Not sure what I'll read next, although I'm not sure I want to get into a large book again just yet.

I dont class king as a horror writer anymore. Back in the early days yeah but not so much now. His modern books are more supernaturalish these days. As for what to read next: Revival is excellent as is Hearts in Atlantis (both modern king) The Stand is classed as his finest work, but is a massive book. You might want to check out the Dark Tower books too and if you like the sound of them then dive in as they connect with a lot of his other stuff wonderfully. I envy anyone experiencing Kings back catalogue for the first time. You're very lucky
 

TTG

Member
I don't think a father's worst fears or his journey as a father are central themes to the book, never mind ones the book are slavishly serving. It's about colonialism and the white man's rape of the world, and the consequences that follow. The consequences Lucy chooses to accept and David doesn't, at least at first. The balance of power between black and white in South Africa post-apartheid. People as animals, animals as people. I find it hard to answer your questions because I don't think they're relevant to reading this book.

Lucy's white guilt didn't escape me, it was patently preposterous, try Robinson or Faulkner instead. This is the part where I would make an analogy, but in this context it would come off as insensitive comparison shopping on suffering. Also, the journey I mentioned is of the main character's descent into disgrace, not so much as a father... but anyway, back to books that are deserving of our time.
 
361px-neuromancer_book.jpg


Just finished Neuromancer. Thought it was just okay. Some cool moments and passages, particularly the ones that actually take place within cyberspace. However, between those sections is an often convoluted and confusing narrative, and I found it difficult to process just what was going on at times. None of the characters are very compelling, either, so it's hard to really care about what is happening because you're not invested in anyone.

Going to read Orson Scott Card's Seventh Son next. Not sure what to expect with the pulpy cover, but it's strongly recommended by a friend with nostalgia for the series.

Have you read Altered Carbon? I haven't read Neuromancer yet, but Altered Carbon was great. Wondering how it stacks up to Neuromancer?
 

Uzzy

Member
So, with all the talk about Brandon Sanderson in the thread recently, I figured it was about time I read one of his books. I'm not too keen to get into a massive trilogy/series just now though, so I ordered The Emperor's Soul at my library. While waiting for that to arrive, however, I saw Warbreaker for sale in a local charity shop. So I picked that up, and I'm going to start it tomorrow.

 
So, with all the talk about Brandon Sanderson in the thread recently, I figured it was about time I read one of his books. I'm not too keen to get into a massive trilogy/series just now though, so I ordered The Emperor's Soul at my library. While waiting for that to arrive, however, I saw Warbreaker for sale in a local charity shop. So I picked that up, and I'm going to start it tomorrow.

That is probably my favorite of his stand alone novels.

Glad you didn't get Elantris... it was rough imo.
 

TTG

Member
Have you read Altered Carbon? I haven't read Neuromancer yet, but Altered Carbon was great. Wondering how it stacks up to Neuromancer?

Altered Carbon is fun, Neuromancer is all time top 10 sci fi. He's not the easiest to read however. I remember reading an interview with David Simon(The Wire) where he talked about introducing the audience to a show conventionally versus how it happens in the real world; walk into a bar, pick up snatches of conversation, acclimate to the new space etc. William Gibson doesn't do much of hand holding, he doesn't meticulously explain the back story of his worlds and how they function. Actually, in his later books he can be purposefully abstract so that you feel really out at sea initially. Anyway, I wouldn't call Neuromancer convoluted.
 

Piecake

Member

The Son looks like interesting. Bought. Thanks

Speaking of the Comanche, I picked up this book a few days ago


In the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, a Native American empire rose to dominate the fiercely contested lands of the American Southwest, the southern Great Plains, and northern Mexico. This powerful empire, built by the Comanche Indians, eclipsed its various European rivals in military prowess, political prestige, economic power, commercial reach, and cultural influence. Yet, until now, the Comanche empire has gone unrecognized in American history.

This compelling and original book uncovers the lost story of the Comanches. It is a story that challenges the idea of indigenous peoples as victims of European expansion and offers a new model for the history of colonial expansion, colonial frontiers, and Native-European relations in North America and elsewhere. Pekka Hämäläinen shows in vivid detail how the Comanches built their unique empire and resisted European colonization, and why they fell to defeat in 1875. With extensive knowledge and deep insight, the author brings into clear relief the Comanches’ remarkable impact on the trajectory of history

That is just so different than the standard Native American narrative that I have always read that I just had to buy it. It isnt some wacko, revisionist shit either since it is published by Yale University Press.
 

ThisGuy

Member
If you really get into it, you should check these lectures out. Or you can read his book, which is basically the same thing. I think either adds a lot to the experience while still being very approachable.

Listening to the lectures, finally caught up to where I'm at in the book. Really appreciate you sharing this link, I can't believe how much I missed with Gollum and the exchange of riddles. Also enjoy how it points out Tolkien's writing style, and history of the revision. Lol, thank you.

Just wish I could get the movies depiction of Gollum out of my head so I can fall back on my imagination.
 

Piecake

Member

I just finished this and quite liked it. If anyone is looking for a brief overview of Chinese history then I would definitely recommend this. It covers the most important trends, themes and consequences in Chinese history while still remaining interesting and entertaining. One grip that I have is that the title is certainly misleading. I expected a comparison between China and other world civilizations or at least a focus on how China was integrated into the global system at every period in its history. That is certainly not the case. It is a straight up history of China. It does mention how it does integrate into a global system a bit, but you kinda need to do that if you are going to write about the history of a nation, so I don't think that is deserving of the title 'In World History'

One thing that I did like is its treatment of economic development. You really see a clear progression of further economic development, sophistication, diversification, scale, and power throughout Chinese history.

Here is a long quote that I like concerning the Song economy:

Given the Song's assertion of civil authority over military leaders, its elevation of civil over martial values, and the growing military power of its nomadic neighbors, it may seem surprsing that the dynasty was able to sruvive as long as it did. The main reason for this was a virtual economic revolution that made Song China the most prosperous and highly developed society on earth. Agricultural productivity increased dramatically in Song times, in part because more land came under cultivation as the population continued to move southward. New strains of early-ripening rice were developed in the south, allowing for two rice crops per year.

The government began to print agricultural manuals to spread the newest techniques for increasing crop yields. Farmers began specializing in crops such as mulberry trees for silk worms, tea, sugar cane, bamboo, hemp, and ramie to produce fibers for cloth, and eventually cotton (introduced from India in Tang times), whcih became a major cash crop by the end of the Song. Interregional and international trade expanded, and along with these came a thriving money economy. In 1120, just before the loss of the north to the Jurchen, the Song government collected 18 million ounces of silver in taxes.

In the early Song period, advances occured in iron smelting technology, including the use of explosives to mine iron orea nd the use of hydraulic machinery to power bellows that could generate higher temperatueres for smelting iron and steel. The Song government sponsored the largest iron-smeliting industry in the world, which produced 125k tons of iron in 1078 (quantities not reached in Europe for about another 800 years). Iron was important for making plows, other farm implements, locks, nails, musical instruments, and pans for maiking salt. Chinese peasants probably used as many iron tools in Song times as in the early 20th century.

I really think that gives a very good indication of how economically developed Song China was compared to the rest of the world. Again, agricultural production - early-ripening rice and a crap ton of steel plows? That will definitely dramatically increase the surplus and produce a lot of wealth

In the early 12th century, the government took over the printing and issue of these certificats, creating the wrold's first paper money. Song merchants organized guilds, formed partnerships, and raised money by selling stocks in their enterprises. The thriving agricultural and commercial economies of Song times can also be seen in the thousans of Song-era contracts that survive, including tomb contracts that were drawn up to apply in both the world of the living and the dead.

I knew about paper money and contracts, but stocks!?! Chinese businesses were selling stock in the 12th century? Crazy.

A guide to Hanzhou written in 1235 describes its markets for every kind of commodity, artisans worships, tea houses, inns, wine-shops, restaurants, professional banquet caterers, every kind of entertainment, including trained bears and insects, as well as public and private gardens, and many volunteer organizations of people with hobbies such as music, physical fitness, exotic foods, and antique collecting-and the list went on and on.

I think this passage is really interesting. Besides the wide variety of options available in urban life, I tend to associate volunteer organizations with Tocqueville's description of America's civil society during the 17th and 18th century. He specifically pointed that out as a huge difference between America and Europe. Did China have a sort of civil society back in Song times? I honestly have no idea. I mean, it sounds similar, but I don't really have the knowledge on either to make such a claim. I am interested in finding out more though.

Song prosperity also stimulated international trade, particularily along the southeast coast, where Arab Muslim merchants operated huge Chinese-made ships with watertight compartmens and used the Chinese invetion of the compass to faciliate a thriving long-sdistance trade between China, SE Asia, and the Indian ocean. By the early 12th ceentury, Quanzhou, a coastal city in the southern Fujian, had half a million residents. The general prosperity of Song times can also be seen in tpopulation growth. Scholars now estiamte that China's population grew from perhaps 70 million in 750 to about 100 million in 1100 and perhaps 110 million by 1200, a rate of population growth the world has never seen before

I think this should help dispel the notion that China was insular. And even when China's government policy was insular - or simply focused on the nomadic borders instead of the coast (which going by Chinese history is a quite rational policy) this sort of trade and interaction remained because the Chinese government did not really have the ability to limit this trade and interaction, even if it wanted to.

All of this went to shit during the Mongol invasion of the Song. The invasion was absolutely devastating to China. It disrupted the economy, caused millions and millions of deaths and spread disease. It has been found that the bubonic plague originated in central asia, and this invasion of the Mongols into China was what spread it into China, which obviously just devastated society. It is estimated that about 50-60 million Chinese died during this time., and I would imagine that it had a similar impact that it did on Europe. Drastic reduction in demand and a huge economic depression (which did happen). The mongols also printed money like crazy to pay for their wars, which resulted in massive inflation and were not able to repair dikes due to all the chaos. Consequently those flooded, causing massive amounts of death, disease, famine, and economic ruin.

It was really only until the Late Ming that the Chinese economy began to recover and get back on track. So yea, Mongols bad.

Along with that one thread about American colonialization, this book has gotten me more interested in the whole Great Divergence debate. Why did Europe develop industrialization and China fail to? Clearly, China's economy was very well developed, so what happened? In fact, when Britain was industrializing, China was just hitting that Malthusian trap. They finally ran out of land and technologies that could really increase crop yields, which resulted in the many peasants being born not being able to feed themselves sufficiently. The last real big thing was the Colombian exchange foods being introduced into China, which allowed hilly regions unsuitable for rice, millet and wheat to get planted with potatoes crap like that. Well, that eventually got used up too.

That, along with British and European empirialism is why we get the whole chaos of the 19th century. Peasants with no prospects for land or land that couldnt support themsleves just started staging massive massive rebellions throughout the whole period. The government couldnt effectively respond due to a previous tax policy that froze a low tax regime and the census at a fixed point and very poorly trained Manchu Banner armies - meaning that the government didnt have the money or the resources to effectively tackle what it faced.
 

Mumei

Member
Listening to the lectures, finally caught up to where I'm at in the book. Really appreciate you sharing this link, I can't believe how much I missed with Gollum and the exchange of riddles. Also enjoy how it points out Tolkien's writing style, and history of the revision. Lol, thank you.

Just wish I could get the movies depiction of Gollum out of my head so I can fall back on my imagination.

I'm glad you're enjoying it! I found that it was a little repetitive when I read the book (though perhaps this is because I'd already listened to the lectures... anyway), but I also felt that I had been rather egregiously inattentive during my own reading. He also has a lecture / symposium series on The Silmarillion if you're feeling ambitious later.

The Son looks like interesting. Bought. Thanks

Yes, I bought a copy of that myself a month or so ago. It sounded really interesting, and I was intrigued by the descriptions I saw in the Tournament of Books it was in.

That is just so different than the standard Native American narrative that I have always read that I just had to buy it. It isnt some wacko, revisionist shit either since it is published by Yale University Press.

That's pretty wild. You'll have to tell me what you think of it!


Really, you could quote just about any sentence in the review and respond in that way.
 

Piecake

Member
That's pretty wild. You'll have to tell me what you think of it!

That might be a while! I definitely will once I eventually get around to reading it though. I have been sort of on a Chinese history kick and I also have this book:


I have never read a detailed history of the Opium War before, but besides that, this book also go into how the Chinese government and Chinese society construct, use, and present the Opium Wars to create a national memory that can be brought up and used when needed. That just sounds fascinating since I have always been interested in how we use history as well.

I am also slowly working my way though Augustus as well. So far it is very good, but I have been saving that for my bedtime reading.
 

theapg

Member
Recently finished these books:
51m7P%2BbJfAL.jpg
41r-sKjJ61L.jpg
51bcLuCKTKL._SX329_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

41%2Bu9rvgl1L._SX326_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
41QFNQOcveL.jpg


Unbroken was amazing, I couldn't put it down. One of the best nonfiction books I've read.
Old Man and the Sea was a little repetitive and kind of hammers you on the head with the metaphor. I see why it's a classic, but still, not the most entertaining read.
Sisters Brother was very good, I highly recommend it. If anyone has any similar books (prose), please let me know!

I think I'm gonna start this now:
41MDk6xZlGL._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
 

Nuke Soda

Member
Second read through of A Confederacy of Dunces and it just hit me that Ignatius J. Reily is the internet lol. He hates most things, he thinks of himself as the smartest person in the room, he is an outsider by choice, and he really hates most things.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom