Bernie Sanders Surges to First Place in New Hampshire Primary Polling
- Thread starter starwarsfan541
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I would say you are. So long as you have first past the post voting in the USA, people will shy away from voting third party to prevent the spoiler effect (basically the fear someone left of centre has that not voting for the Democrats strengthens the Republican chance of winning or vice versa).
Implement preferential voting and the story may be different. Neither major party would want that for obvious reasons.
This happens nearly every Midterm to the party in power. The notable recent exception was 2002, and you can guess why.
Coriolanus
Banned
The voter turnout, however, was unusually low.
If you don't look at this country, and indeed the world as it should be, then there will be no change.
If one wants to settle for less than mediocrity and then cry it was all they could do, then they don't deserve anything better.
Our greatest points are when people decided they needed to be bold and go against what they could reasonably get.
With that thinking, civil rights would never have been passed
The depression would have continued
And those protections instituted at the time as a result (that have since been rolled back to protect the average citizen) would never have existed.
Fenderputty
Banned
Blah blah ideals blah blah.
You can keep your ideals while I vote for the best chance at a liberal supreme court.
EDIT: Like Sanders is gonna get his idea passed through this congress anyway.
eBay Huckster
Member
And if you want to whine and moan when absolute perfection isn't chosen and then cry that (much as in the last 200 years of the country's existence) the only progress being made is a steady trickle, then you also don't deserve anything better.
Heh, i like how you say that its all ideals when Bernie is the only one who has been talking actual policy this entire election cycle when we have loons in the republican field promising to restrict "religious liberties that restrict christian values" among other garbage.
and on the democratic side we have a woman who basically can't keep her story straight for 5 seconds outside of talking about her mom and in the past has gone against literally everything she says she is for in this election cycle while taking millions of dollars from corporations to continue to not do anything about our issues. Clinton is far from any sort of liberal to begin with.
Is that who you lot feel is someone you want to support honestly?
You say "Bernie would not get his ideas passed anyway". Gee thanks. Glad to know we have such faith in the system, even with the highest elected office. Why even talk about politics in this thread if we are going to go that far? 'nobody is gonna do anything substantial anyway'. One might as well not even bother voting in that case.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Minimum wage ballots passed and yet Democrats were running from Obama care.
Republican lite doesn't really excite voters. Neither does same old same old.
And_Gignac
Member
Pragmatism is an ideal too. And Hillary and Sanders mostly agree in their positions.
Also, Hillary is not this magic Republican hypnotizer that will get everything she wants through the chambers just "because".
Tell him, Saber.❤️
Days like these...
Have a Blessed Day
I'm voting for Bernie if he doesnt win we DESERVE whatever we get not like there's much difference between hilldawg and the republicans apart from appointing liberal judges
gutter_trash
Banned
remember last time Hillary thought she had a lock;
she needs to work it and get serious if you doesn't want to lose it again.
If Bernie pulls it off, I will be impressed because I still believe that Americans are still deeply Right Wing Conservatives mostly... and yeah, there are Right Wing Democrats, don't kid yourselves
she needs to work it and get serious if you doesn't want to lose it again.
If Bernie pulls it off, I will be impressed because I still believe that Americans are still deeply Right Wing Conservatives mostly... and yeah, there are Right Wing Democrats, don't kid yourselves
Honestly I just want a Democratic victory in 2016. Third terms have a ridiculous compounding effect on cementing and furthering policy change, they're the holy grail in post WWII politics. If John Kerry or Al Gore stepped into the race and were more competitive in the general election than Hillary I'd back them in an instant. Opportunities like this for a third and possible fourth term are too rare to go into without strategically siding with whoever has the best chance in the general. The time to pick a candidate based on ideals is in a situation like in 2008 when any Democrat was practically guaranteed victory.
If you look up articles on what Senate Republicans have to say about Bernie, you'll see that the idealism vs. pragmatism dynamic is a false dichotomy. He's very practical and result-oriented when negotiating with Republicans. But the idealism is the guiding voice. Idealism and pragmatism work together, actually. Idealism without pragmatism goes nowhere. Pragmatism without idealism leads us where the rich pay for us to be led. If you want incremental steps in the correct direction, you need both, not one or the other.
In liberal cities where they have home court advantage.
Fenderputty
Banned
I'll take pragmatism over the alternative ideals.
My point regarding Bernie not passing shit through congress probably wasn't fully explained. I don't think Hillary has better odds either. I'm highlighting the fact that bickering over progressive policy is largely just noise because of congress.
She represents the best chance at a liberal SC appointee and best shot at preventing a GOP control in all the legislative branches.
akachan ningen
Member
You think Bernie would appoint a conservative to the sc?
Dicktatorship
Junior Member
It's Ron Paul all over again lol
This is true. I know quite a few homophobic church going folk who were cheering Hilary on in 2008 until Obama won the primary, then they swung for McCain.
I think he's saying that she's more likely to win a General election and thus be in position to nominate anyone at all.
Fenderputty
Banned
No? Where did u get that. I think Hillary has the best shot at the presidency and by extension SC appointee.
To be clear, I like Bernie more than Hilary. If polling changes so that he has the same shot nationally I would switch.
Coffee Dog
Banned
Aside from "both sides are the same", appointing liberal judges is a huge fucking deal
Yes it is.
So is having the judgment not to go to war.
So is being a leader on social issues like gay marriage, not a follower.
So is regulating banks instead of repealing Glass-Steagall.
So is smart criminal justice and not having "tough on crime" policies.
Not only is it suspect to assume we will get liberal judges from someone who doesn't have a liberal record, it's grossly reductivist to talk about the Oval Office as if it only exists to appoint Supreme Court nominees.
Days like these...
Have a Blessed Day
So we'd be a little less fucked with hilldawg the neo con lite tough on crime corporatist? Point taken.
Fenderputty
Banned
Hillary doesn't have a liberal record? I mean, she's slightly more moderate than Sanders but I thought I read when she was in the Senate she consistently voted with Democrats, and most of her election promises seem to be left or democrat platforms, like raising minimum wage, right to union, path to citizenship, etc.
She's was the 11th most liberal member of Congress when she was in the Senate. It's sort of seems weird to have her suddenly painted as some conservative-in-sheep's-clothing.
The entire Democratic party has shifted left, too, since she was last an elected official and especially since her husband was in office (a time when she was often carted out by the Clinton administration as the appeal to the liberal wing of the party). Hillary has also always been more liberal than her husband, but we knew this in the 90s and the 2000s as well.
Fenderputty
Banned
Neocon lite.
Yeah, I think the 538 article was the one I read, and it made it sound like she generally follows the Democratic Party moving to the left (supporting gay marriage now that most Democrats do), rather than Democrats following her.
RustyNails
Member
The idea of court appointments is extremely important to the executive branch, and it is not reductivist to say we need a Democrat in the white house to appoint a liberal judge. All the things you mentioned, gay marriage, war etc. can eventually be decided in a supreme court. It's one of the biggest duties of POTUS. I mean I'm happy with all the idealism you're showing. Bernie is a great guy. I have been listening to Brunch with Bernie on Thom Hartmann radio for the past....I dunno, 10 years? The problem is that he is too good for our political system. If he has a warchest as big as Hillary's by the time Iowa rolls out, maybe things will be different but he doesn't quite have a chance to dethrone her no matter what the polls are saying right now. All the Obama gotv people and playbooks are going to Hillary. He needs to outmatch her on that while spending a lot of money and still having enough to last the primary.
Honestly I think he will drop out after Super Tuesday and give his endorsement to Hillary. He is too smart of a guy and probably understands the fundamentals are not in his favor and it's too much of a risk to hang the court nomination in balance.
Its not as if Clinton is a liberal. She can appoint center or center right justices if she wants as well you know...
The fact of the matter is. Clinton has a record of supporting incarceration, drug referendums, supporting the Keystone XL, being a warhawk in the middle east, voting for both the afgan and iraq wars, supporting the Trans atlantic trade partnership, the bailout of the banks, the patriot act, the war on drugs, NAFTA, CAFTA, and was apart of the board of directors of walmart for years, all the while taking millions of dollars both in SuperPac donations as well as 'private fundraising'.
I don't trust her period. Most of these things Obama attacked her on during the campaign trail! Its a shame that attacks are empty when the system is broken, and both Obama and Hillary have stumped to that low.
Bernie is the only one i see who wants to fix the underlying issues, and that's why i care about how he turns out.
So you trust Bernie.
What happens if/when he tells you he's out, and that he heavily recommends a vote for Hillary?
Your trust magically stops there? If so, you must not trust his judgement that much.
edit: and the idea of Hillary appointing center-right SCOTUS justices is absolutely absurd.
Fenderputty
Banned
Who did her husband appoint? Did you know her litmus test for SC appointees is citizens United?
Dude Abides
Banned
Come now. You know she's responsible for everything bad Bill did and nothing good. I read she even made Monica blow him.
Fenderputty
Banned
I think Clinton is just wherever the party is at the moment, or wherever she needs to be to win. In the 90's she was a third way Democrat, something akin to a blue dog. As a Senator in the 2000's she was a hawkish Democrat in the 9/11 security era.
Now she's portraying herself as to the left of Obama because in Democratic politics this is the era of Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders, and because she badly needs Obama's coalition to hold. She's totally devoid of convictions but I don't see her reverting to her past personas because she moves with the party, which is moving left.
Now she's portraying herself as to the left of Obama because in Democratic politics this is the era of Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders, and because she badly needs Obama's coalition to hold. She's totally devoid of convictions but I don't see her reverting to her past personas because she moves with the party, which is moving left.
RustyNails
Member
Voting while sitting in Congress is one thing, sitting in the hot seat in Oval office is different. People fail to make that connection. The important thing is what she stands for NOW. Does she think Iraq war was a good idea? Does she want to go to war with Iran?
Elfforkusu
Member
Aeriscloud
Banned
I heard he cried every time.
I trust Bernie himself. His own views and personal opinions. He has said himself that he would not run as an independent if he lost the primaries specifically because he didn't want the republicans to win at any cost. And i'm sure he will do as he says would, no matter how ugly the next choice in line might be.
I respect his viewpoint, i'm sure many people agree. But i can't. He's the last guy i hinge my bets on for a responsible political field in office. If he loses, i can't in good faith support her. I'm sure by that point there will be enough people's votes to win against the jokes of the conservative party, but i won't be one of them.
I'm tired of voting for garbage because its less garbage than the other garbage.
Exactly as i said, she has simply talked out of both sides of her mouth ever since the election started. She never said anything concrete about Citizens United until she had to get serious about her campaign while Bernie has stayed consistent since CN was ratified.
Congratulations Hillary, you can mouth off about citizen's united allowing full exploitation of SuperPacs while fully exploiting your own SuperPac for money and donations(50 million dollars!) and working with Debbie Washerman Schultz to game the debates in your favor. Real nice.
I don't care about Bill's record. What Hillary's record shows is that i cannot trust her with the government based on my own principles. And its not just her record, even now she's slimy being a total hypocrite.
SolarPowered
Member
No, it is not lol. Politicians quite literally sell themselves based on their records. What they do in office and how they've tried to change the country are big parts of how they sell themselves to the American public. If she doesn't want to sell herself this way then it probably has a lot to do with those blue dog stances and center-right connections she has built over the years.
Come November I'll almost certainly be voting for her (because Bernie is almost surely going to lose), but there is no need to straight up lie about her record or how the political process works lol. It stinks of desperation and Bernie supporters should be the only ones feeling this way.
RustyNails
Member
You can stand against Citizens United while taking advantage of it. What's the problem? Would you rather she ditch the SuperPAC money and stay around 100 mil while her opponent Jeb Bush raises $1 bil?
RustyNails
Member
It's not lying. I'm not saying don't hold them to their record. Find out what they think of their record now. She can't get away from the Iraq War vote. If she still believed the Iraq War was a good call and tried to justifiy it in a way such as well we were all scurred and looked to W for answers, then fuck her. But she doesn't and thinks it was a bad call. I'm okay with that kind of answer.
Fenderputty
Banned
This is silly. Politicians are supposed to represent their constituents desires. If the voting bloc shifts along the political spectrum, so will the politician. Which is what we as constituents want!
SolarPowered
Member
I somewhat feel the same way which is why I'll be casting my vote for her next year (assuming nothing goes wrong). People make mistakes and that was a pretty glaring one. It was at least a big enough mistake that Obama could use it against her when they were running against each other.
Still, nothing changes the fact that a politician still has to stand on their record and face the American public with it. This is why we have debates and interviews. Sooner or later people are going to ask her about her past stances on Citizen's united, the Iraq war vote and other things. How she answers those matters and may gain her supporters too.
I'm thankful for Politicians who go against the grain every once in a while. Sometimes we constituents can be straight up dummies.
I've had enough of talking. Talking anyone can do. If you wanna talk, be a radio or TV pundit, you can lie about anything on air. She can talk about whatever she wants to win the nomination. But if she doesn't stand by her rhetoric, it literally doesn't matter in the end.
Bernie has raised his entire campaign funding(last i heard at 15 million) from grassroots supporters averaging 35 dollars and 22 cents a donation. This is not a battle for winning the Presidency. This is a battle for whether or not the citizen actually controls their elected leaders or not and whether those leaders are even for the citizen and not the people who fund their campaigns.
I see no reason why i should believe Hillary who is as a cog as they come is going to not drop every promise the second she wins.
Manmademan
Member
Didn't we do this in 2008? hasn't this song been sung before?
It's also sort of funny to label her as someone who just changes where the winds blooooow. Like, let's not even talk about how when Clinton does this (or even a Clinton), it's somehow seemingly more duplicitous and conniving than other politicians, but she's had a very consistent through line on key issues that she holds dear from when she started talking policy to now.
That's not to say that she is a stalwart idealist. She's not, and she values political pragmatism above a lot else. But it'd be foolish to think she's a demagogue with a thirst for power and no convictions when she's shown her policy tendencies for the last few decades.
Or maybe she'll take off her mask on election day and reveal herself to be the Koch-planted Republican she is, throwing the body of Vince Foster onto Chuck Schumer's desk on the first day of her administration as a warning sign.
There's no real need to speculate. She won a Senate seat twice and had a liberal voting record. Whether or not that's liberal enough for you, well, YMMV. She's too hawkish for me to support in the primary. But it's not like I feel like I'm selling my soul or honor voting for her.
Fenderputty
Banned
I'm thankful for Politicians who go against the grain every once in a while. Sometimes we constituents can be straight up dummies.
I don't disagree. There's people in this thread and page that seem to think once a politician takes a stance they can't evolve though. That her current positions can't be trusted. Which is silly unless the base that elects them largely stays unchanged.
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