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[BertramCooper]

Stopped reading here because you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

lol.

Primary voter turnout is pathetic in the 1st place. Without Obama on the ticket minority primary turnout is going to be slim to none.

You really don't care about minorities huh. I don't wanna burst your bubble but the Democratic party is losing white voters, not gaining them. Winning minorities by huge margins is what makes them viable as a party.

 

[PhoenixDark]

You mean the rejection of Clinton?

Sanders isn't capable of building the coalition required to beat Clinton; he's the wrong candidate to pull it off, as compared to Obama being the perfect candidate to do it in 2008. Iowa and NH happen to be two of the whitest states in the early process. Once things head to South Carolina, Nevada, Colorado, etc Hillary will begin winning. And let's be real: there's no guarantee Sanders wins Iowa/NH. In fact I don't think he'll win either.

 

[ErasureAcer]

And yet you're still reading my posts.

 

[BertramCooper]

And yet you're still reading my posts.

I can't deny their entertainment value.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

And yet you're still reading my posts.

#1 source of political comedy on this forum. Who wouldn't?

 

[NeoXChaos]

lol.

Primary voter turnout is pathetic in the 1st place. Without Obama on the ticket minority primary turnout is going to be slim to none.

and without them Bernie can't beat Hillary nor win a general election.

And yet you're still reading my posts.

You are one of a kind Erasure. Your insight is always welcome.

 

[JustenP88]

I wish this could be more about the process than ego-stroking, predictions and the desire to call the election a year early.

 

[Grizzlyjin]

You really don't care about minorities huh. I don't wanna burst your bubble but the Democratic party is losing white voters, not gaining them. Winning minorities by huge margins is what makes them viable as a party.

Yeah, I haven't seen someone try so hard to discount minority voters as an integral part of the Democratic party base. Support like that isn't doing Sanders any favors...the vibe I see (even around here) is either that minorities aren't educated enough to open their eyes to Sanders or now we've reached the point where he should just ignore them since they don't really matter.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Yeah, I haven't seen someone try so hard to discount minority voters as an integral part of the Democratic party base. Support like that isn't doing Sanders any favors...the vibe I see (even around here) is either that minorities aren't educated enough to open their eyes to Sanders or now we've reached the point where he should just ignore them since they don't really matter.

It's like the perfect example of Diet Racist™ whereas Trump supporters are overt in this racism. This is more passive aggressive and looking down on minorities as unimportant or ignorant.

 

[User 463088]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

The main reason Sanders will not be the Democratic nominee for President in 2016 is because the dude is not a freaking Democrat.

I'm sorry. This might burst some ideological pie in the sky fantasy, but he has zero support within the Democratic party. You can pretend you don't need it. You can pretend that the donors and the grassroots people are going to come running if he gets the nomination....but they won't.

While he sat in the Senate with that nice little "I" behind "Vermont," the people that make the party actually kinda sorta work had Democrat behind our name. We took the punches. You do not get to swoop in, become a Democrat when it's convenient for you and expect the party to support you.

To win an election you need a strong ground game. Like it or not, that typically falls to the candidate, although a lot of Obama for America was integrated into the DNC, but whatever. There is no reason whatsoever for the party faithful to support Sanders. He hasn't been there for us. He hasn't helped down ticket Democrats. He hasn't gotten a single endorsement from any nationally elected Democrat. Hell, Sanders help found the Progessive Caucus, Another one of the founding members came out and endorsed Hillary.

 

[dehydratedbabies]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

The main reason Sanders will not be the Democratic nominee for President in 2016 is because the dude is not a freaking Democrat.

I'm sorry. This might burst some ideological pie in the sky fantasy, but he has zero support within the Democratic party. You can pretend you don't need it. You can pretend that the donors and the grassroots people are going to come running if he gets the nomination....but they won't.

While he sat in the Senate with that nice little "I" behind "Vermont," the people that make the party actually kinda sorta work had Democrat behind our name. We took the punches. You do not get to swoop in, become a Democrat when it's convenient for you and expect the party to support you.

To win an election you need a strong ground game. Like it or not, that typically falls to the candidate, although a lot of Obama for America was integrated into the DNC, but whatever. There is no reason whatsoever for the party faithful to support Sanders. He hasn't been there for us. He hasn't helped down ticket Democrats. He hasn't gotten a single endorsement from any nationally elected Democrat. Hell, Sanders help found the Progessive Caucus, Another one of the founding members came out and endorsed Hillary.

Long Live The Two Party System

 

[Flo_Evans]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

The main reason Sanders will not be the Democratic nominee for President in 2016 is because the dude is not a freaking Democrat.

I'm sorry. This might burst some ideological pie in the sky fantasy, but he has zero support within the Democratic party. You can pretend you don't need it. You can pretend that the donors and the grassroots people are going to come running if he gets the nomination....but they won't.

While he sat in the Senate with that nice little "I" behind "Vermont," the people that make the party actually kinda sorta work had Democrat behind our name. We took the punches. You do not get to swoop in, become a Democrat when it's convenient for you and expect the party to support you.

To win an election you need a strong ground game. Like it or not, that typically falls to the candidate, although a lot of Obama for America was integrated into the DNC, but whatever. There is no reason whatsoever for the party faithful to support Sanders. He hasn't been there for us. He hasn't helped down ticket Democrats. He hasn't gotten a single endorsement from any nationally elected Democrat. Hell, Sanders help found the Progessive Caucus, Another one of the founding members came out and endorsed Hillary.

This may shock you but some people don't really like democrats! I consider the "i" a plus.

and without them Bernie can't beat Hillary nor win a general election.

And without the evil "diet racist" white male Hillary can't win either.

 

[4Tran]

I'm not sure how newsworthy this one poll is. The results of a single poll doesn't mean anything, but more importantly, Sanders' chances at the nomination are minimal unless he manages to either pull in broad national support or he gains a lot of votes from minorities. Neither of these seem to be happening, so Clinton's lead in the race hasn't changed to any degree. Her drop in approval is both expected and should have been accounted for. I'd imagine that Sanders has a lower probability of being nominated than Trump.

 

[User 463088]

Long Live The Two Party System

Right. Which is why Sanders, in his ideological purity, decided to run as an Indepe-ohwait, no he didn't.

Running for a parties nomination means you are running to be the leader of that party. Until 2015, Bernie Sanders was not a Democrat. He's only a "Democrat" now because it's the only way he has to get his message out there.

Anyone who knows anything about campaigning will tell you you have to have some type of infastructure. Sanders does well in Vermont because it's very small, mostly white and very liberal. He doesn't need a huge ground game to win re-election. If he wants to become President, he has to have a ground game in the competitive states. There has been no sign that he has the ability or finances to do that independently. Therefore, he needs the Democratic Party to help him. You can dislike the two party system all you like, but it is the reality of the situation. Bernie Sanders doesn't just get to wish it all away really, really hard.

I mean, come on, the dude refuses to run polls! How in the heck can you target areas without running polls? How do you know where you need to put staffers and resources? How do you turn out the vote? You just hope and pray hard enough?

 

[JustenP88]

Snip

I don't think Bernie is gonna win (I just want to see the Democratic primary in the spotlight with active debate throughout) but God damn if your attitude isn't fucking depressing.

Pro-establishment Democrats won't support Sanders if he somehow won the nomination? What kind of shit is that?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I wish this could be more about the process than ego-stroking, predictions and the desire to call the election a year early.

Yup. Thread is filled with possibly prematurely smug Clinton supporters, slightly loony Bernie supporters, and presumably invisible Biden supporters waiting for the right time to make their first post. Doesn't make for great conversation.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

I don't think Bernie is gonna win (I just want to see the Democratic primary in the spotlight with active debate throughout) but God damn if your attitude isn't fucking depressing.

Pro-establishment Democrats won't support Sanders if he somehow won the nomination? What kind of shit is that?

Clinton has as many weighted endorsement points now as Obama did in 2008 when he clinched the nomination. That's probably bigger news than any poll out there.

 

[JustenP88]

Clinton has as many weighted endorsements now as Obama did in 2008 when he clinched the nomination. That's probably bigger news than any poll out there.

Ok, that's fine. So, what happens with these endorsements in the unlikely scenario that Bernie wins the nomination? They turn their backs?

 

[Crocodile]

*Makes a post about why Sanders might have be having issues getting minority support.*

*One point includes the fact that his supporters often do a good job alienating minorities*

*Soon after an ardent supporter of his goes out of their way to discount and discredit the importance of the minority vote*

Ok then

Stopped reading here because you have no idea what you're talking about.

Derp you're right he ran for Governor but actually lost. I'm well aware of his other current and past positions but since I misremembered him winning that Governor seat, which would be the highest office he's held, I mistakenly attributed to him. LOL if you think that invalidates any of the other points I've made. He's never had to campaign for minority votes and they aren't doing super hot in the State he represents - again I don't think his inability to currently garner minority support is a big shock.

 

[dramatis]

lol.

Primary voter turnout is pathetic in the 1st place. Without Obama on the ticket minority primary turnout is going to be slim to none.

She didn't have my white vote.

Obama won the white vote in several states in the primary.

Would you look at that. Hillary got most of the white vote. How did Obama win? That's right. Not through the white vote.

Guess who has nothing but young white voters right now? Bernie Sanders.

It doesn't matter if Hillary doesn't have your white vote specifically. But thanks for confirming that you're a white guy looking down on the importance of the minority vote in Democratic primaries.

I think I gave someone this challenge before, but since you're so good at Googling, maybe you can do it. Just try and build a winning delegate amount without the assistance of minority vote. Keep in mind, even against Obama, Hillary received the majority of the delegates from most of the populous states (NY, CA, FL, MA, PA, etc.). So you can't count on those to deliver delegates to Bernie, particularly not NY.

 

[User 463088]

I don't think Bernie is gonna win (I just want to see the Democratic primary in the spotlight with active debate throughout) but God damn if your attitude isn't fucking depressing.

Pro-establishment Democrats won't support Sanders if he somehow won the nomination? What kind of shit is that?

I'm saying he won't get the nomination because he has no support within the machinery of the party. Outside his core of supporters, there is no one in the party who has any intention of helping him whatsoever.

Voter databases, district information, delegate allocation, polling, voter registration, GOTV, etc. These are all things the local, state and national party helps with during the General and the Primary. These are the things that get candidates elected.

If Sanders were to magically get the nomination, the DNC will be, in my opinion, trying to mitigate down ticket loses that having him at the top of the ticket will cause. Simply because he will not have the resources to run his own campaign, let alone help any actual Democrats trying to run.

I'll vote for whatever candidate the Democrats put up, but I hightly doubt I'll bust my ass canvassing for Sanders. I've already been canvasing for Clinton and local Democrats here. The few Sanders supporters I met in person were nearly carbon copies of some people that post in Sanders threads. My boyfriend and I were lectured for almost twenty minutes on why we were ignorant, uninformed and "just plain wrong" because we supported Clinton over Sanders.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Even thought Sanders will almost certainly not win, I don't think that he will do that badly among minority voters. He's not disliked, and his platform certainly isn't disliked given on issues of racial equality it is as close to objectively better than Hillary's as you can get. That's not the problem. The real problem is that about two-thirds of black Democratic primary voters have literally no idea who he is, and that's not a problem that can exist in perpetuity given the debates.

I mean, he's now leading Hillary with Hispanic voters in at least 3 states (NH/Iowa/Georgia); and possibly more that haven't been polled.

 

[ErasureAcer]

Who bothers to quote posts from nearly a decade ago? The obsession is real.

Bertram Cooper does. Dude is more obsessed with me than I was with Kucinich back then. haha. I love ya Bert. I know someone is always listening(even if not for the right reasons).

 

[Wall]

I'm saying he won't get the nomination because he has no support within the machinery of the party. Outside his core of supporters, there is no one in the party who has any intention of helping him whatsoever.

Voter databases, district information, delegate allocation, polling, voter registration, GOTV, etc. These are all things the local, state and national party helps with during the General and the Primary. These are the things that get candidates elected.

If Sanders were to magically get the nomination, the DNC will be, in my opinion, trying to mitigate down ticket loses that having him at the top of the ticket will cause. Simply because he will not have the resources to run his own campaign, let alone help any actual Democrats trying to run.

I'll vote for whatever candidate the Democrats put up, but I hightly doubt I'll bust my ass canvassing for Sanders. I've already been canvasing for Clinton and local Democrats here. The few Sanders supporters I met in person were nearly carbon copies of some people that post in Sanders threads. My boyfriend and I were lectured for almost twenty minutes on why we were ignorant, uninformed and "just plain wrong" because we supported Clinton over Sanders.

I guess Sanders supporters aren't the only ones who will take their ball and go home if their favorite candidate doesn't get the nomination. So much for party unity. What a depressing thread.

 

[freeofgreed]

You really don't care about minorities huh. I don't wanna burst your bubble but the Democratic party is losing white voters, not gaining them. Winning minorities by huge margins is what makes them viable as a party.

Well he is a Sanders supporter...

Spoiler

I kid I kid.

I wish this could be more about the process than ego-stroking, predictions and the desire to call the election a year early.

I mean what else would this thread be about? The name of the thread is "Bernie leads Hillary in Iowa 41% to 40%. Diamond Joe back at 12%." and so far what's been discussed lines up with that. I'm not sure what else you would want people to talk about within this context.

 

[Grizzlyjin]

Ok, that's fine. So, what happens with these endorsements in the unlikely scenario that Bernie wins the nomination? They turn their backs?

They would rally behind him, no matter what anybody says before the convention. The big thing is, getting to the convention without those endorsements. So say a popular local Democrat that you voted for is saying Clinton is the way to go, and supports her fully when she comes to town. Things are going to swing her way.

Iowa and New Hampshire are great in years when people aren't really sure who to back. Everybody wants to bet on the winning horse. But sometimes those endorsements go a certain way early. And I don't think anybody is going to panic if Hillary lost either state since South Carolina and Nevada are a huge uphill battle for Sanders.

 

[BertramCooper]

Bertram Cooper does. Dude is more obsessed with me than I was with Kucinich back then. haha. I love ya Bert. I know someone is always listening(even if not for the right reasons).

Again, I can't deny your entertainment value.

But Jesus Christ, you're delusional.

Also, to be clear, I cannot be credited with unearthing the "**Official Dennis Kucinich For President Thread**." I think that was NeoXChaos.

 

[User 463088]

Even thought Sanders will almost certainly not win, I don't think that he will do that badly among minority voters. He's not disliked, and his platform certainly isn't disliked given on issues of racial equality it is as close to objectively better than Hillary's as you can get. That's not the problem. The real problem is that about two-thirds of black Democratic primary voters have literally no idea who he is, and that's not a problem that can exist in perpetuity given the debates.

This is a huge logical leap, isn't it?

In PPPs most recent SC poll, Sanders had a fairly large unknown group who didn't know enough about him (36% compared to Hillary's 11%). However, his unfavorables were 10 points higher than hers. Sanders also has a 27% unfavorable rating among women, as opposed to Hillary's 13%. Hillary's unfavorables among African Americans are at 10%. Sanders is at 20%. Hillary's unfavorables among "Others" are at 20%. Sanders is at 51%.

So, this idea that once people know him they'll love him really doesn't hold as much water to me as it does to some others. If this were a traditional primary, in which both candidates came in relatively unknown, then I can see the less known candidate being able to erase some of these demographic problems.

It's not enough that people think favorably on him. They have to think he's a good guy and decide to vote against Hillary Clinton (who they've already said they'll support). That's a tough road for anyone to climb. There aren't a lot of undecides here. Sanders is basically getting the "Not Clinton" vote.

 

[ErasureAcer]

Again, I can't deny your entertainment value.

But Jesus Christ, you're delusional.

A grand thesis with no argument to back it up. At least I'm not lazy.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

This is a huge logical leap, isn't it?

In PPPs most recent SC poll, Sanders had a fairly large unknown group who didn't know enough about him (36% compared to Hillary's 11%). However, his unfavorables were 10 points higher than hers. Sanders also has a 27% unfavorable rating among women, as opposed to Hillary's 13%. Hillary's unfavorables among African Americans are at 10%. Sanders is at 20%. Hillary's unfavorables among "Others" are at 20%. Sanders is at 51%.

So, this idea that once people know him they'll love him really doesn't hold as much water to me as it does to some others. If this were a traditional primary, in which both candidates came in relatively unknown, then I can see the less known candidate being able to erase some of these demographic problems.

It's not enough that people think favorably on him. They have to think he's a good guy and decide to vote against Hillary Clinton (who they've already said they'll support). That's a tough road for anyone to climb. There aren't a lot of undecides here. Sanders is basically getting the "Not Clinton" vote.

This is why Sanders fans should be deadly afraid of Diamond Joe Biden. He would eat it into their not Clinton vote big time.

 

[NeoXChaos]

Again, I can't deny your entertainment value.

But Jesus Christ, you're delusional.

Also, to be clear, I cannot be credited with unearthing the "**Official Dennis Kucinich For President Thread**." I think that was NeoXChaos.

that was not me lol.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=176218955&postcount=17066

 

[ErasureAcer]

Sanders is basically getting the "Not Clinton" vote.

And the 400,000+ campaign contributors, so far, are just jaded people who hate Hillary as well? And I'm the "delusional" one.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

And the 400,000+ campaign contributors, so far, are just jaded people who hate Hillary as well? And I'm the "delusional" one.

They don't hate her. They just seek alternatives.

 

[User 463088]

I guess Sanders supporters aren't the only ones who will take their ball and go home if their favorite candidate doesn't get the nomination. So much for party unity. What a depressing thread.

I said I'd vote for him. I don't think that I'll campaign for him, though. I'm guessing every single Sanders (and Hillary for that matter) supporter only believes in party unity if they go out and canvass for whomever the candidate happens to be? I'll work on down ballot campaigns which is what I enjoy more anyway. I'll do what I can to get Democrats (actual Democrats, not pretend ones) elected.

I volunteered for Hillary in 2008, and then I volunteered for Obama during the General. I'm sorry, but I'm not energized by Sanders. Not even a little bit. While some may say they'll hold their nose and vote for Clinton, I feel the same way about Sanders. At least I'm not saying I'll sit and watch the world burn or vote for whatever GOP idiot wins the nomination.

Some feel they can risk rolling the dice on Sanders, I can't afford that chance. That's why I'll do everything in my power to make sure the candidate I think best wins the nomination. And, it just so happens, shes a Democrat.

 

[BertramCooper]

A grand thesis with no argument to back it up. At least I'm not lazy.

Why would I waste my time on forming an argument to support my "grand thesis" (wut) when you've made your complete delusion abundantly clear in every political thread you've posted in in the last decade?

I pegged you for a troll until the Kucinich stuff was dug up. Now it's clear you're an actual crazy person.

that was not me lol.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=176218955&postcount=17066

Heh, apologies. Credit goes to Cheebo.

 

[JustenP88]

This is a huge logical leap, isn't it?

In PPPs most recent SC poll, Sanders had a fairly large unknown group who didn't know enough about him (36% compared to Hillary's 11%). However, his unfavorables were 10 points higher than hers. Sanders also has a 27% unfavorable rating among women, as opposed to Hillary's 13%. Hillary's unfavorables among African Americans are at 10%. Sanders is at 20%. Hillary's unfavorables among "Others" are at 20%. Sanders is at 51%.

So, this idea that once people know him they'll love him really doesn't hold as much water to me as it does to some others. If this were a traditional primary, in which both candidates came in relatively unknown, then I can see the less known candidate being able to erase some of these demographic problems.

It's not enough that people think favorably on him. They have to think he's a good guy and decide to vote against Hillary Clinton (who they've already said they'll support). That's a tough road for anyone to climb. There aren't a lot of undecides here. Sanders is basically getting the "Not Clinton" vote.

Can this stuff not shift? Sure, it's unlikely to shift enough for him to move past her, but is that the point of campaigning and debating or is that all a charade?

I just don't understand why so many people are eager to call it so early. Hillary is probably 99% sure to win the nomination. Why not let the surging progressive candidate get a little play instead of going out of your way (not you specifically) to convince his supporters that their candidate is a joke? You think that's good for party unity?

Let's let some drama play out. Let the party steal back some national attention. Let Hillary earn a victory over some semblance of competition. That sounds more healthy for the party's chances than acting like her inauguration was decided as soon as she announced. Complacency isn't going to help anybody.

 

[User 463088]

And the 400,000+ campaign contributors, so far, are just jaded people who hate Hillary as well? And I'm the "delusional" one.

I don't think I ever said that people who support Sanders hate Hillary. Interestingly, people who support Hillary don't hate Bernie. I have a moderately favorable opinion of the guy, but I wouldn't vote for him in the primary. Some people want an alternative. I think everyone should get involved in the process If that's by donating money or time or whatever, great. Maybe if more people got involved, they'd realize what it actually takes to run a national campaign.

This is why Sanders fans should be deadly afraid of Diamond Joe Biden. He would eat it into their not Clinton vote big time.

I think it does a lot more than that. It actually marginalizes Sanders. It makes it appear as though he's not a valid challenger to Hillary. It dominates the news cycle. If Joe would announce, he's already poised to be in Second place. A three way race will not last long, and I doubt Sanders would be the one left standing for some of my above mentioned reasons.

 

[dramatis]

I guess Sanders supporters aren't the only ones who will take their ball and go home if their favorite candidate doesn't get the nomination. So much for party unity. What a depressing thread.

I think you're not picturing the situation adam387 is illustrating properly.

What he states is that Bernie will likely not win the nomination because he doesn't have the party machinery that is used to get votes. This is a factor that Bernie supporters, who likely have never participated in the actual act of grassroots get out the vote, overlook when it comes to evaluating Bernie's prospects. The reason the invisible primary is important is due to the value of local known officials—governors, senators, representatives, and so on—to the local population. These same people, because they have to get elected in their area, can also offer the tools essential to campaigning in a particular area: databases, information on local issues and concerns, local staff, etc. Because Hillary is in the Democratic party, she can benefit from this additional support offered by years of infrastructure built by the party. Because Bernie had never suffered being a Democrat and now is running in the Democratic nomination, he is unlikely to receive this vital support.

Of course, if through some miraculous event, Bernie does win the nomination, the Democratic party will support him. The problem is, because he is not raising as much money as Hillary and also doesn't want to raise money from certain sources, the Democratic party will have to expend extra resources on supporting him as opposed to a more self-sufficient Hillary campaign. Those extra resources could go to supporting local candidates, but because of Bernie's principles, they are instead allocated to him.

adam387 did not, in any way, state that Hillary supporters will take their ball and go home. Read carefully. It's disappointing that you're so quick to jump to a counter accusation, Wall. I thought you were a better poster than that.

Also, to be clear, I cannot be credited with unearthing the "**Official Dennis Kucinich For President Thread**." I think that was NeoXChaos.

It was Cheebo.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Can this stuff not shift? Sure, it's unlikely to shift enough for him to move past her, but is that the point of campaigning and debating or is that all a charade?

I just don't understand why so many people are eager to call it so early. Hillary is probably 99% sure to win the nomination. Why not let the surging progressive candidate get a little play instead of going out of your way (not you specifically) to convince his supporters that their candidate is a joke? You think that's good for party unity?

Let's let some drama play out. Let the party steal back some national attention. Let Hillary earn a victory over some semblance of competition. That sounds more healthy for the party's chances than acting like her inauguration was decided as soon as she announced. Complacency isn't going to help anybody.

In fairness, his supporter are quite obnoxious. Sanders has a very favorable view among just about everyone. He can't hold back his rabid supporters though.

 

[injurai]

I guess Sanders supporters aren't the only ones who will take their ball and go home if their favorite candidate doesn't get the nomination. So much for party unity. What a depressing thread.

You act as if a lot of the Bernie supporters are active members of the Democratic party. In reality he was never their boy, and democrats supporting him are already moving away from their parties alignment by backing him.

 

[And_Gignac]

You guys talk as if minorities lacked agency and they are just going to mindlessly vote Clinton because thats how it has to be. Theres nothing in Sanders platform that could potentially drive minorities away, and If the momentum grows for Bernie after/if he wins Iowa/NH, minority voters would vote for him too in adequate proportions.

 

[NeoXChaos]

In fairness, his supporter are quite obnoxious. Sanders has a very favorable view among just about everyone. He can't hold back his rabid supporters though.

Neither can Hillary and her rabid supporters.

 

[User 463088]

Can this stuff not shift? Sure, it's unlikely to shift enough for him to move past her, but is that the point of campaigning and debating or is that all a charade?

I just don't understand why so many people are eager to call it so early. Hillary is probably 99% sure to win the nomination. Why not let the surging progressive candidate get a little play instead of going out of your way (not you specifically) to convince his supporters that their candidate is a joke? You think that's good for party unity?

Let's let some drama play out. Let the party steal back some national attention. Let Hillary earn a victory over some semblance of competition. That sounds more healthy for the party's chances than acting like her inauguration was decided as soon as she announced. Complacency isn't going to help anybody.

It definitely could shift. However, I feel like it's going to take more than name recognition to make it shift. I have no qualms with letting it play out. Hillary, when boxed in a corner, is an amazing fighter. I don't mind her going out there and earning those votes. I don't think we're going to get any attention away from the GOP and Trump show, though.

I also don't think Sanders is a joke. I don't think he has a realistic chance of winning, but I do believe he believes in his economic populism type message. I respect that and agree with him on most of those issues. Where I get frustrated is when I see some (again not saying anyone here per say) Sanders supporters acting so superior to the rest of the Democratic party. Ironically, these people that now tell us how you win elections have never, ever been there helping us out. They're just popping up long enough to tell us that we're wrong, they're right and so there. It's maddening.

I think you're not picturing the situation adam387 is illustrating properly.

What he states is that Bernie will likely not win the nomination because he doesn't have the party machinery that is used to get votes. This is a factor that Bernie supporters, who likely have never participated in the actual act of grassroots get out the vote, overlook when it comes to evaluating Bernie's prospects. The reason the invisible primary is important is due to the value of local known officials—governors, senators, representatives, and so on—to the local population. These same people, because they have to get elected in their area, can also offer the tools essential to campaigning in a particular area: databases, information on local issues and concerns, local staff, etc. Because Hillary is in the Democratic party, she can benefit from this additional support offered by years of infrastructure built by the party. Because Bernie had never suffered being a Democrat and now is running in the Democratic nomination, he is unlikely to receive this vital support.

Of course, if through some miraculous event, Bernie does win the nomination, the Democratic party will support him. The problem is, because he is not raising as much money as Hillary and also doesn't want to raise money from certain sources, the Democratic party will have to expend extra resources on supporting him as opposed to a more self-sufficient Hillary campaign. Those extra resources could go to supporting local candidates, but because of Bernie's principles, they are instead allocated to him.

adam387 did not, in any way, state that Hillary supporters will take their ball and go home. Read carefully. It's disappointing that you're so quick to jump to a counter accusation, Wall. I thought you were a better poster than that.

Thank you for clarifying what I was trying to say. I really shouldn't post when I'm trying to work That's exactly what I was trying to get at.

 

[jmood88]

It's like the perfect example of Diet Racist™ whereas Trump supporters are overt in this racism. This is more passive aggressive and looking down on minorities as unimportant or ignorant.

And it's why, despite being as liberal as I am, I've never enjoyed being around other liberals very much. It's almost worse than with republicans because I disagree on everything with them but when I see how racist many liberals are, all while talking about their tolerant beliefs, it makes me angry that we can agree on so much yet be so far apart on something as fundamental to my being as race.

 

[JustenP88]

In fairness, his supporter are quite obnoxious. Sanders has a very favorable view among just about everyone. He can't hold back his rabid supporters though.

That sort of goes hand-in-hand with being a "niche thing." In also fairness, I think the laughing off of his chances does a bit to provoke some of the obnoxiousness.

The more obnoxious among us, perhaps myself included, do tend to dominate these conversations. I like to ignore them (the "anyone but hillary" or "Bernie gets the nomination or I'm voting Trump" crowds) but the outlandish statements that a poster or two make always end up being latched onto and dominate the conversation. Who's more to blame? I dunno, but the discourse is shit and I don't think either side has as much interest in improving it as being right.

 

[zero shift]

Hillary is the better choice to get things done at the national level. She has more experience at that level, she knows how to play the game on both the electoral and policy stage better than anyone running. Bernie winning the Presidency and failing to accomplish anything he set out to do will diminish the passion of young progressives and lead to more cynicism similar to what happened in 2010 with Obama. And that's assuming that Hillary and Sanders both stand a roughly equal chance of defeating whoever the Republican candidate ends up being, which I definitely don't agree with.

In a vacuum I'd take Bernie 10 times of out 10, but being a pragmatist I'm going with Hillary.

So we have gone from "Bernie will lose a general election" to "Bernie will elect bad supreme court appointees" to "Bernie lacks experience at that level".

Barack Obama beat Hillary Clinton in 2008. Was that a mistake?

If you dont think Bernie can win then fine (you are probably right). However, saying that it would ve vad if he wins ab election that most American voters voted to put him through is odd.

Yup. Thread is filled with possibly prematurely smug Clinton supporters, slightly loony Bernie supporters, and presumably invisible Biden supporters waiting for the right time to make their first post. Doesn't make for great conversation.

The Democratic Party everybody!

 

[injurai]

In fairness, his supporter are quite obnoxious. Sanders has a very favorable view among just about everyone. He can't hold back his rabid supporters though.

The only thing I don't understand is passing judgement against any platform on account of obnoxious supporters. You patronize yourself to think in that manner.

 

[QuiteWhittle]

Bernie will elect bad supreme court appointees

Who said this?

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

The only thing I don't understand is passing judgement against any platform on account of obnoxious supporters. You patronize yourself to think in that manner.

Most of his platforms would never see the light of the day so Clinton and Sanders are not so different on that front in terms of what to actually expect to get if they win.