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SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
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Ghostmaster
Member
You do know that TLOU is also exactly that.
It's not that surprising, it's easy for the developers to draw personal experiences, feelings and possibilities for those scenarios, since most of the writers in the industry are still men. And there is usually nothing that men cherish more than their daughters.
That's way Life is Strange is so impressive, it's a game about American girl highschool drama (with some supernatural events thrown in for good measure) made by a bunch of Frenchmen.
TPP is VR confirmed
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
I would play it. Get Telltale or Dontnod on it.
Obviously the multiple endings would have to be kind of restricted so choices would have to focus on characters exclusive to their little story.
such taboo
The popularity of dad-simulators is pretty well known. Bioshock Infinite's another commonly cited example.
I've been thinking, perhaps MGSV should have had Big Boss and Gray Fox as dual protagonists.
Similar to the concept of MGS2 it could have been a sort of second-person narrative; the decline of Big Boss as seen by another character.
It just seems like Kojima has a hard time making the protagonist morally dubious.
Similar to the concept of MGS2 it could have been a sort of second-person narrative; the decline of Big Boss as seen by another character.
It just seems like Kojima has a hard time making the protagonist morally dubious.
BotchPoppaPump
Member
Oh don't get me wrong. I use unpleasant in the most praiseworthy sense possible. When you realise that the game is so openly, blatantly, in your face fucking with you, it's a beautiful thing. Iroquois Pliskin is the GOAT MGS character.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
From the top level, MGS2 is a masterpiece. It's a commentary on the role of the player in games, the nature of sequels, and the information society, and yes, it is very prescient about the role of the internet and social media.
But moment to moment, it's a goddamn mess. The pacing is godawful, the dialogue is wooden and VERY overwrought, and there is zero subtlety to any of the writing, it has to spell out even the most basic themes and metaphor to make sure YOU GET IT.
Both of these things can be true. It has amazing ideas, but Kojima simply didn't have the writing chops to pull it off well. And sure, translation probably didn't help, but I doubt it's the key culprit.
Compare that to the last moments of MGS 5: Venom Snake punches a mirror and holds a tape that simply says "Operation Intrude N313". From this little bit of visual storytelling we can surmise so, so many things about the setting and the character. We know this takes place in Outer Heaven, likely only moments before Solid Snake fights the phantom. Him shattering the mirror is open to interpretation (in an MGS game! Imagine that!), but could represent something like the phantom saying goodbye to whatever piece of himself pre-surgery he had left (remember that whenever we see the "real" face of the phantom it's in a reflection, whether it's a mirror or in the ACC at night).
If this moment had been done in MGS 2/4 style there would first be a half-hour codec talk explaining every stupid detail (that's instead been relegated to tapes, thankfully) followed by a long cutscene and it would be totally beaten to death. Kojima has learned to leave something to the imagination, and he's learned how to do visual storytelling, and MGS5 is so much better for it. You just have to do some of the work.
Also, another thing that's been bugging me: people keep complaining we never see Big Boss turn into the villain. People, it already happened in Peace Walker when he rejected the AI's decision to stop fighting so there could be peace. When he decided he needed to build a PMC because WAR FOREVER is apparently great. When he kept a goddamn nuclear weapon on Mother Base. When he brought back Sahalanthropus - hell, the game even goes out of its way to show you here, likening him to Skull Face. I don't know what more you want? Big Boss killing puppies and kittens?
But moment to moment, it's a goddamn mess. The pacing is godawful, the dialogue is wooden and VERY overwrought, and there is zero subtlety to any of the writing, it has to spell out even the most basic themes and metaphor to make sure YOU GET IT.
Both of these things can be true. It has amazing ideas, but Kojima simply didn't have the writing chops to pull it off well. And sure, translation probably didn't help, but I doubt it's the key culprit.
Compare that to the last moments of MGS 5: Venom Snake punches a mirror and holds a tape that simply says "Operation Intrude N313". From this little bit of visual storytelling we can surmise so, so many things about the setting and the character. We know this takes place in Outer Heaven, likely only moments before Solid Snake fights the phantom. Him shattering the mirror is open to interpretation (in an MGS game! Imagine that!), but could represent something like the phantom saying goodbye to whatever piece of himself pre-surgery he had left (remember that whenever we see the "real" face of the phantom it's in a reflection, whether it's a mirror or in the ACC at night).
If this moment had been done in MGS 2/4 style there would first be a half-hour codec talk explaining every stupid detail (that's instead been relegated to tapes, thankfully) followed by a long cutscene and it would be totally beaten to death. Kojima has learned to leave something to the imagination, and he's learned how to do visual storytelling, and MGS5 is so much better for it. You just have to do some of the work.
Also, another thing that's been bugging me: people keep complaining we never see Big Boss turn into the villain. People, it already happened in Peace Walker when he rejected the AI's decision to stop fighting so there could be peace. When he decided he needed to build a PMC because WAR FOREVER is apparently great. When he kept a goddamn nuclear weapon on Mother Base. When he brought back Sahalanthropus - hell, the game even goes out of its way to show you here, likening him to Skull Face. I don't know what more you want? Big Boss killing puppies and kittens?
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Obviously that is not supposed to happen but they did adjust the AI in the tanks in that mission to speed past trucks faster and even shoot them because they anticipated the player doing that. Hats off to Kojipro for that detail.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Oh please, like Episode 51 actually added anything substantial other than another re-hash fight with sahalanthropus. We already know what happens to Eli/Liquid, Mantis, in fact the fates of every character is basically set in stone canonically.
I'm not surprised it was cut, who wants to finish a game shooting children?
Haunted
Member
I think it's fine to keep Solid Snake confined to his own trilogy.
Metal Gear 1 and 2 already are the connecting tissue between the two trilogies and storylines.
Yeah that sounds about right. :lol
Eh I'm not sure this is true. The mere existence of the whole embarrassing car ride cutscene kinda punches a hole in that theory, and given the series' history, I'm guessing that Kojima was the one responsible for that shit while the other contributors/editors are the real heroes responsible for the improvements you mention.
but maybe that's just my anti-Kojima bias speaking
I actually enjoyed Mad Max more, but don't tell anyone. I might even get banned for saying such a terrible thing.
No way dude, you're crazy.
So I'm not the only one who though Peace Walker had a stronger story, right? Sure it was silly with the whole Boss AI thing and that Peace Walker drowns itself, but dudes, that final act was intense.
Then the Paz twist and final battle rocked. That whole situation was ridiculous in all the right ways.
Them Freudian undertones.
Then the Paz twist and final battle rocked. That whole situation was ridiculous in all the right ways.
Them Freudian undertones.
Zabant
Member
That was my point. See:
..
Huh, I didn't think of that one. Yep, another great example.
I wonder if there's some link to be made with the fact the average gamer is a male in his 30's. It's the perfect audience to play to for this kind of story, most probably have young daughters of their own.
DannyDanger
Member
So is Eli luquid?
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Would probably be the most powerful ending of all time tbh
Peace Walker's second battle is actually my favorite "Metal Gear fight" in the franchise, because of what it actually means.
During the whole series we are constantly being told that these walking death-mobiles speak of doom by nuclear war, but Peace Walker is the ONLY ONE that actually makes you feel the threat of a nuclear strike.
I mean, you start the fight, and that thing is already aiming its nuke at Cuba, ready to start fucking World War III in a minute.. You never feel that sense of urgency with the other Metal Gears. They are a threat, sure, but this fucking thing actually means business and doesn't fuck around.
You can bitchslap it a few times and it keeps going into nuclear strike mode. Kaz's yelling really adds to the whole scene. I always get goosebumps whenever Peace Walker's voice says: "Initializing Nuclear Launch Mode", "Launch angle set".
No other mecha fight in the entire series gives you such a sense of urgency and panic.
Truly glorious.
EDIT: And that freaking music.... Wow...
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
I just want to say that I was firmly in the "Huey is more innocent than we think" camp, but after re-watching his exile cutscene it firmly cements what a terrible person he is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLURZh8IysY
Look at his face when Strangelove's recording comes on. It's not horror or disgust, it's almost blank and expressionless, displaying only a hint of worry. The first thing he says when he hears it is "How could a machine...?"
The first thing he thinks of is himself, and how his cover is blown.
Then he goes into the suicide argument again, and you can hear the desperation in his voice as he tries to crawl his way out of taking responsibility for anything he's done. The anger in the crowd is tangible ("Kill that son of a bitch!") And everyone realizes what kind of person he is... except himself. He defends himself not like he's trying to convince everyone else, but like he's trying to convince himself.
The reason this scene is doubly effective is that it shows how dark the environment at Diamond Dogs has become. They're outside the law, they're about to lynch someone. Even the atmosphere looks moody and oppressive, with the red lights coming on and the tension in every character escalating. Look how angry Kaz gets when V spares his life. Even Venom "Saint Snake" Boss looks at him like he's a piece of dung. Ocelot finally starts acting like the Ocelot we know with his pacing and speeches, and is really about to put a bullet in Huey's head.
For all the things this game didn't do, it did Huey right. I really liked him, and his lovable Otacon voice made him seem so vulnerable. I wanted him to be innocent. He's the worst kind of villain because he's not someone you know to hate right away like Evil McRapist Skull Face, and even after he's outed as the person he is his vulnerability - both in his mannerisms, the amount of pity you can take on him as he lies to himself, and his physical disability - make you hesitant to direct ill feelings towards him. Again, there's a double meaning to this as Huey is the only one to realize what Diamond Dogs is becoming. By that point, though, his words are tainted. He's the only one to realize how twisted the merc business they have going is in concept, but he's so twisted himself it sounds hypocritical coming from him.
When Kojima talked about darker, more realistic themes, I think we can see what he meant to do with Huey. He's not a cartoon villain. He's a human with some glaring and terrible flaws, and his character has many layers to him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLURZh8IysY
Look at his face when Strangelove's recording comes on. It's not horror or disgust, it's almost blank and expressionless, displaying only a hint of worry. The first thing he says when he hears it is "How could a machine...?"
The first thing he thinks of is himself, and how his cover is blown.
Then he goes into the suicide argument again, and you can hear the desperation in his voice as he tries to crawl his way out of taking responsibility for anything he's done. The anger in the crowd is tangible ("Kill that son of a bitch!") And everyone realizes what kind of person he is... except himself. He defends himself not like he's trying to convince everyone else, but like he's trying to convince himself.
The reason this scene is doubly effective is that it shows how dark the environment at Diamond Dogs has become. They're outside the law, they're about to lynch someone. Even the atmosphere looks moody and oppressive, with the red lights coming on and the tension in every character escalating. Look how angry Kaz gets when V spares his life. Even Venom "Saint Snake" Boss looks at him like he's a piece of dung. Ocelot finally starts acting like the Ocelot we know with his pacing and speeches, and is really about to put a bullet in Huey's head.
For all the things this game didn't do, it did Huey right. I really liked him, and his lovable Otacon voice made him seem so vulnerable. I wanted him to be innocent. He's the worst kind of villain because he's not someone you know to hate right away like Evil McRapist Skull Face, and even after he's outed as the person he is his vulnerability - both in his mannerisms, the amount of pity you can take on him as he lies to himself, and his physical disability - make you hesitant to direct ill feelings towards him. Again, there's a double meaning to this as Huey is the only one to realize what Diamond Dogs is becoming. By that point, though, his words are tainted. He's the only one to realize how twisted the merc business they have going is in concept, but he's so twisted himself it sounds hypocritical coming from him.
When Kojima talked about darker, more realistic themes, I think we can see what he meant to do with Huey. He's not a cartoon villain. He's a human with some glaring and terrible flaws, and his character has many layers to him.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Yep. Confirmed in the timeline.
Actually, there was. See even in this post, you can see how much you dislike Rose. Her character is stilted. WTF is this dialogue? and so on. You don't like her, but you keep playing the game pushing through it. Hang on, turns out she wasn't meant to make any sense because I was being manipulated, through dialogue, by an AI. Raiden is getting pissed in that video you linked, about the room, and confused. because he doesn't know WTF she is talking about. You, the player, are getting annoyed too. "Why is she being so dramatic? A room is a heart? That doesn't make sense! this is poorly written." - people who missed the point. Raiden is sitting there going, dude, it's just a place where I sleep! But you keep getting hammered by the AI, or what you think is Rose. This is where you can think 1 of 2 things.
1. It's sounding wrong, therefore this script is shit.
2. It's meant to sound wrong, because it is wrong.
The AI isn't complete in MGS2, far from it. It's still learning. The Big Shell incident is one massive data mine, to complete the Patriots. everything you count as "bad writing" is actually the script. Seriously, go play this game with that in mind and come back calling the game shit. You can't. If you block your mind off to it, you are taking an integral part of the game away from itself. You're shutting one bit out because TLOU had a cool bond story line and great VA. That's awesome, and it's a fun game. But people will not be talking about TLOU in 15 years the way people still argue about MGS2.
BotchPoppaPump
Member
I just thought that the cutting of Eli's story, ending on them moving out to sea with Saleh was simply a callback to Ocelot and RAY at the end of MGS2, leaving it open to speculation, interpretation etc.
Hands of Stone
Member
Wouldn't say I was looking forward to it (I'm not a maniac) but how sickening would that have been? Showing Big Boss as going so far as to kill children, a true monster.
A waste.
Zabant
Member
We're reaching maximum hyperbole here people.
IMO Red Riding Hood children's book has better writing than MGS2, but it's just my opinion.
DannyDanger
Member
Because Venom isn't Big Boss.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
ALL TIME BRO
Yup. Snobby English accent, blonde hair, and all.
Fuck yeah. Plus the soundtrack and the added tension from the story all round just adds to it. I don't think I've ever felt so desperate trying to finish off a boss fight before. And you're not the only one feeling it, the whole world is on edge and it bleeds through.
Mr. Smiley
Member
This guy.
But seriosuly, I'd take anything more.of this game. Even a mission where horseshit is flung up into the sky like clay pigeon shooting
What's with all of the shitting on TLOU, LIS, TWD etc? Because they have cliché's? Nothing really to write home about considering
MGS2 was basically just Illuminati and the CIA mind control theories.
MGS3 was basically a James Bond Movie, Bond girl and everything, which also expanded on the illuminati, also cliché'd "Mentor sacrifice plot".
MGS4 was just Nanomachines son, which the MGS series itself turned into a cliché.
PW was just shit.
MGSV was as predictable as saying snow will fall in winter, also further expanded on the illuminati.
Just because your all pissed MGSV wasn't how we wanted it to be don't shit on other games and their respected Devs.
MGS2 was basically just Illuminati and the CIA mind control theories.
MGS3 was basically a James Bond Movie, Bond girl and everything, which also expanded on the illuminati, also cliché'd "Mentor sacrifice plot".
MGS4 was just Nanomachines son, which the MGS series itself turned into a cliché.
PW was just shit.
MGSV was as predictable as saying snow will fall in winter, also further expanded on the illuminati.
Just because your all pissed MGSV wasn't how we wanted it to be don't shit on other games and their respected Devs.
DannyDanger
Member
Oh sh**, Duhhhh
In fairness a lot of MGS2's design decisions were meant to infuriate the player. You get your ideal sequel in the tanker with large (relatively) parts of uninterrupted gameplay and fanservice, then it's stripped away and you get the plant where you can barely go a minute without interruption. Take a look at how hand holdy the first hour of the plant is and then think about how much attention to detail there is in the rest of the game. Stuff like that could not slip by Kojima and QA. I've gone through the whole disliking of MGS2, but these days I prefer that it tried to say something and didn't just continue things on like every other series. I'd almost sacrifice the rest of the MGS games for its message the ending of the series. I do want to point out that I'm not defending MGS' writing (as in dialogue), it's so overdone and exposition heavy, but the concept and execution of MGs2's themes are masterful when it all starts to implode in the last 1/5.
Because Fox's history was with Big Boss not Venom. BB saved him. BB sent him to Outer Heaven to eliminate Venom's insurrection. Fox was loyal to BB and joined him in Zanzibar. It retcons like there's no tomorrow but it makes a lot more sense than the original.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
MGS2 tries to be subversive in a sequel to a well loved game and in a well known genre. It still needs to operate as a stealth game. The Stanley Parable wears its meta-commentary on its sleeve and is a lot less riskier. It benefits from not being compared to a previous game in a series and from being part of the "walking-simulator" genre which has its own stigma among gamers for its minimal interaction. People go into The Stanley Parable expecting it to be super meta.
I'm not trying to take anything away from Stanley Parable or downplay its writing. But MGS2 is a lot more bold with the expectations people had of it.
Of course it was. People here seem to think that Konami cut it against Kojima's wishes and then for some reason put in on a dvd along with the game so people could flog them with it.
Smooth Operator
Member
It's because (Big ending spoiler)
you're not Big Boss, you're the Medic, so the DNA can't match
DannyDanger
Member
I didn't beat 46, but I figured that since mission one. Keifer Sutherland helped me escape the hospital
And he said "you're talking to yourself" or something like that in the hospital when u ask who he is
Zabant
Member
Red Riding Hood is a story that has literally lasted over a thousand years and is understandable and relatable to nearly everyone alive.
It's hardly a fair comparison to put it next to a video game made in 2001, especially when at that time stories were seen as tertiary elements in video games.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
I dont think so. Seems like cut content because of failure to meet deadlines.
Why release informatomion on 51 if driving speculation was the intent? Because it wasn't. Funny coincidence though.
swearing-circle
Member
This post nails a lot of what I feel about the series and 5 in general. I totally agree with you in regards to Kojima not needing to spell out how Big Boss became bad because as you've highlighted, we've already seen it. I also agree with the intrude scene being well done and more subtle than the series has been known for.
I still hold MGS2 as the highest high of the series in terms of themes and story telling and while I agree that the writing is bad (I like the pacing personally) I still find it funny how so many people don't get what MGS2 was trying to say, considering it was spelt out very clearly with a ton of exposition dumps.
Again, MGS5 is not well written but considering Kojima's juvenile attitude towards Quiet it's all the more impressive that he does actually show some restraint in regards to things like child soldiers and he does bring up some interesting points in regards to war itself.
don't see many people shitting on those games but OK. One other dude brought them up as the measuring stick for Awesome Game Writing though.
Do you have some deep rooted issues regarding a lack of bond with your father? Im not trying to be offensive. I'm being serious here.
What have all MGS games got in common?
Everything is centred around Big Boss and his sons.
Exactly. You know that everyone is watching you with their hearts on their hands in fear of that thing actually launching. And that there are some dudes at the Pentagon with their fingers over the nuclear buttons. And if you wait a little you actually see Peace Walker shaking from the combustion of the nuke. The visuals are just incredible for this fight.
The fight against Peace Walker is one of the finest moments of the entire franchise.
And as I said, having the games' main theme playing during the whole encounter... Holy shit...
Wait a second...
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