MMaRsu
Member
Yup
How the hell is it demeaning to women? Im not sure. Its a fictional character.
Does she need to be fully fleshed out and have a explorable personality a girl can relate to before she can be sexy?
Jimquisition (September 14th, 2015) - A Quiet Conversation
- Thread starter L~A
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Yup
How the hell is it demeaning to women? Im not sure. Its a fictional character.
Does she need to be fully fleshed out and have a explorable personality a girl can relate to before she can be sexy?
Saucycarpdog
Member
I would Avatar quote you but I'd rather just argue.
Why are those that don't want women as eye candy considered by you to be "outraged?" Have you ever heard of criticism?
So representation of marginalized groups in games doesn't matter?
SoraanTribal
Member
Probably asked already, but how spoilery is this video? I already know why Quiet is designed like that (I mean, the in game story reason).
Thanks for your great contribution to the thread.
Dick Justice
Banned
Well you're the one who posted the image of Raiden.
I'd say they were probably mistaken regarding MGS4 if that was their thought process. B&B unit probably played a part, but the main reason it sold so well was because it was the advertised final game in a long-term, popular franchise.
Intheflorsh
Banned
It just spoils the Secret Reason why Quiet has to be naked.
MMaRsu
Member
Why would it?
There should be more women in games thats for sure. All along more diversity altogether.
Quiet's design isn't as much offensive as it is just fucking stupid.
Sure, but that doesn't mean we're not going to give him shit about it.
Spielberg makes a lot of movies that I absolutely adore, but I'm still going to criticize him over Seaquest.
SoraanTribal
Member
CaviarMeths
Member
Edit, misunderstood comment.
Yeah nothing wrong with that once your work is released people have opinions. Seaquest was garbage I can agree with that.
Thats probably the more important question.
Dont lump us all together you meanie!
Rudimental
Member
I haven't played the game, but I certainly would need to see this, for my skin-breathing analysis purposes of course.
I was really trying to make a joke in that post about not ogling and instead analysing the nature of skin-breathing, but that failed.
CaviarMeths
Member
The design is fucking stupid and the justification for it is literally ecchi anime levels of silly, but the real problem is indeed the lingering, leering camera angles and weird stripper poses (or "stretches" as we're told).
The rain scene is just weird. Does she not take showers or what? She should take showers. I like showers.
The rain scene is just weird. Does she not take showers or what? She should take showers. I like showers.
MMaRsu
Member
If Kojima ( the designer ) wants her to be sexy then yes, she has to be sexy.
Why is she not allowed to be sexy is the most important question here
Yup. You can have a design that is skimpy and sultry that still looks good. It's part of their design and can be used to provide visual queues of what that character is about. It's why her outfit tends to constantly undermine any real character traits she could have, though, its not the only thing that undermines her character. When you realize that her entire character arch is driven by things that she doesn't WANT to do opposed to CAN'T do, things get a little odd when determining if she's a decent character or not. Most people seem to hinge 100% of whether or not she's interesting or otherwise on her final scene which is...not great considering it's maybe 1 hour out of 60 that she does anything of her accord...
45 hours of sexy posing, 1 hour of actual narrative badassery.
No one is saying sexy characters are a complete no-no in games, you pulled that argument straight out of your ass. How Quiet is handled and in what kind of game she is handled that way is what most people are having problems with. No one is saying that games like Onenchabara should stop being made, they just don't want that kind of laughable reasoning & objectification of women to push into series that weren't THIS objectifying in (all of the) earlier games of the series. There's been some "look at dem titties" moments in past MGS games, but nothing this overt. Even with all the ridiculous plot twists & some jokes, MGS still tries to portray itself as a somewhat serious drama/story and some of us expect not to be forced through cheap titillation in such games. Sexual content isn't out of the question by default, but there are better ways to do it than shoving Quiet's tits & ass in front of the camera
And "we" aren't the problem just because in the game people don't constantly comment on her ridiculous outfit. It's still meant for titillation for the people playing the game (no matter if not all people are titillated by game content such as this).
She does.
She just enjoys water, and likes to drink it once in awhile.
You can also join her in actual shower.
You either completely missed the point, or you're being purposefully daft.
It's a oversexuallized female character who, based off of her role and "personality" in the game, has no reason to be, other than titillation.
Ploid 3.0
Member
After seeing the rain video she just seems very odd and weird in a cringe kind of way (seems like a parody video that was in the bonus section of a blu ray).
The costume just looks bad to me, I don't care that she's in a bikini. It would be cooler if she had some kind of tech marks as if she's a bio robot, or if she could be more like The End and put any kind of design on her skin, not just her eyes. What's up with that anyway?
Edit: MGS has been Camp for a long time. I never took it serious. There are some serious bits in it (war, government, live your life, yadda) but it's not the majority.
The costume just looks bad to me, I don't care that she's in a bikini. It would be cooler if she had some kind of tech marks as if she's a bio robot, or if she could be more like The End and put any kind of design on her skin, not just her eyes. What's up with that anyway?
Edit: MGS has been Camp for a long time. I never took it serious. There are some serious bits in it (war, government, live your life, yadda) but it's not the majority.
Dice//
Banned
It reduces women to something, almost literally, that should be seen and not heard. It may be fictional, but it doesn't mean it doesn't make a statement about how women are 'seen' in some lights as something to be ogled. Sexy isn't a bad thing, and hey I like a good-looking dude as much as a good-looking women; but you can't tell me Quiet wasn't designed to be lustful looking and to be lusted at in one of the most transparent designs and some of the most silly camera/cinematics to focus on that.
Of course it's demeaning. Just because it's fiction, doesn't mean it doesn't reveal anything.... especially with how upset men get when you try to take their 'sexy women' (or the enjoyment of it) away from them.
While your men watch. And hoot through her bars.
One thing that I've taken away from the discussions about Quiet is that it can be fun and interesting to go through her individual story elements and put the pieces together in efforts to figure out if Quiet's passive nature towards the people who hate her the most is an act of selflessness towards the boss or some sort of method of preserving her self of self as well as her own bitter secrets...and then people post 1 or 2 gifs, and that discussion suddenly seems almost pointless.
no one is saying she isnt allowed to be sexy.
its that the justification for her attire is bullshit and out of place for the character. The camera is constantly ogling her. The same rule doesnt apply to The End who, according to the game, was afflicted with the same thing as Quiet.
It's literally an excuse to exploit a character. The objection isn't to her being sexy, but to her character being exploited like this.
Napalm_Frank
Member
Whatever point he might have had is washed away by saying Quiet>D-Dog.
Shame on you Jim.
Shame on you Jim.
Doctor Ironic
Member
Honestly if Quiet really does have to expose skin in order to breathe I wish Kojima would just go all out and just have her be naked. Just have her be buck naked, who gives a fuck? Ratings boards? Pfft, you already wanted to do shit with child soldiers. That'd be more of a feminist statement than whatever this is. Then you're stepping into "free the nipple," stop-expecting-me-to-be-sexual-at-all-times territory.
That's the most disconcerting thing about Quiet - the fact that she doesn't take a stand on anything. All art is inherently political, and Quiet's political statement seems to be "I can't stop thinking of women as sexual objects even when they're literally being suffocated."
That's the most disconcerting thing about Quiet - the fact that she doesn't take a stand on anything. All art is inherently political, and Quiet's political statement seems to be "I can't stop thinking of women as sexual objects even when they're literally being suffocated."
No, she does. Her stance on things is made pretty clear. If anything, it's the Boss's stance on, almost everything that happens in the game that is both dubious and questionable.
Doctor Ironic
Member
I'm not referring to Quiet the character's plot motivations, I'm talking about the inherent politics of the inclusion of her character.
Being sexy is not the (biggest) problem. Her outfit is completely ridiculous for the kind of line of work she's in, sure, but that wouldn't be as much of a problem if she wasn't treated the way they treat her in the game. Putting her in almost pornographic sexy poses and positioning her in a way that her tits & ass are constantly in the camera's view ARE a problem, especially in a game that seemingly tries to handle some themes like war & child soldiers in any kind of serious manner. I know MGS writing isn't all that good, but it can still be entertaining at its best and cheap titillation simply shouldn't be such an overt part of these kinds of games. Leave that to the Onechanbaras and Dead or Alive Extremes.
Nobody's saying it's not allowed, we're saying it's dumb as fuck.
Dice//
Banned
Part of this line of questioning I hate is that it doesn't consider how 'coincidentally' women ARE allowed to be sexy. Yes girls in real life wear bikinis, yes women like to dress sexy on occasion. But again, the frequency this happens and that Quiet was clearly designed to excite horny 14 year olds unabashedly...is irritating. And as a lot have mentioned, it breaks immersion, making a sweet sentimental or dramatic scene into something that looks a lot more perverted, especially given the seriousness of some of its story elements.
Also...
Turn that around a bit
Ah, then yes, her appearance really is so over the top compared to everyone else in the game that it almost screams of insecurity, as if to say, "there are so many men in this game, if we don't include some sort of cheesecake and predominantly feature it, I'm worried that my audience will not accept it."
But hey, it's Kojima we're talking about, the man who basically made the B&B squad so he would have an excuse to mo-cap a bunch of nude super models.
I think the implication he's making though is people calling out against it are doing so with the intent of it being done less and/or not at all, and thus by proxy essentially stating it "should not" be allowed. Are they outright calling for a boycott/removal? No. But the end results would arguably be the same.
Like, why call out something stupid publicly if for no other reason than to attempt to lessen or remove the stupid thing?
I mean Quiet's design is fucking dumb, people can call it stupid/demeaning all they want, but if no one is saying it's not allowed, then really all the complaining amounts to nothing (in relation to MGS5, not the overall general struggle of female representation).
Is there anyone here who thinks that Quiet's design could have, in fact, been justified somehow in a narrative sense? Would it make it better if it was?
What's bad about having less of this in games? we will get better characters that don't insult our intelligence? That doesnt mean it has to completely go, if we want mindless T&A there are plenty of games that can cater to that. itsj sut supper jarring in a game that tries to take itself as seriously as MGS5 does with one hand while having the camera hover around Quiets unmentionables with the other.
haha
...I mean, why bother critiquing anything with that mindset? Why bother discussing anything ever?
Hey...kids love'im
So the only time one can engage in criticism is if they want to ban or remove something?
So are you on that bandwagon of Criticism = calling for censorship?
Amazing
Coffee Dog
Banned
Don't beat around the bush, you would like to see less Quiets in gaming. You're being disingenuous if you claim otherwise.
Or maybe people want it done well?
There's a time and place for most type of things, and Quiet's character is just so out of place and poorly designed and executed that's just ridiculous.
For example, I feel it was done well in Bayonetta for a bunch of reasons: Game's tone is too hammy and over the top, story for the most part doesn't take itself seriously, there's another layer to Bayonetta's character with her interactions with Cereza and later with some other characters in Bayo 2. The whole game is kind of built on the idea that makes a character like Bayonetta work. Nothing she does or say feels out of place with the tone of the game.
Contrast to MGSV's more subdued tone (compared to other MGS games) and then Quiet sticks out.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Wanting to see less of something isn't the same as wanting it banned, and basically everyone on this forum has said they want "less of something" at one point or another, whether its less CoD ripoff shooters or less fanservice in JRPGs or less shooting in BioWare games
toastyToast
Member
I'm looking forward to the MGS/Star Wars crossover starring Quiet and Jar Jar Binks that I'll never watch.
No, Criticism is criticism and we are free to engage in it for whatever we want.
But trying to pretend like criticism isn't an attempt to influence is just as disingenuous.
And I would love to believe the "We're asking for less, not banned completely" arguments, but every single time an instance like this will pop up, people will complain/rally against it. I do believe that there should be "more" properly written and represented women in video games, but I don't think that requires lessening instances of "Quiets" in games either.
I mean, sure, I would like my female protagonists to have a bit more depth and be thought as more important than fap material first, interesting character with urgency and importance second.
That being said, I'm not saying that we should do away with all cheesecake characters. They have their places and uses.
Eh, makes me wonder, because if he did, Konami fuckery aside, I think there would be far more "metal gear" in this open world metal gear game. It's a wonderful game, but it's lacking a lot of the charm that made people revere the older games in the series.
Shots fired.
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