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SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO

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Wow.

So ended up on this article about doublethink (another 1984 reference) thats actually the name of one of the final tapes with Big Boss talking about V.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink

The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them... To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just as long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies – all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth.

My mind is full of fiddles.

while it could be partly a product of Big Brother's formal brainwashing programmes, the novel explicitly shows people learning Doublethink and newspeak due to peer pressure and a desire to "fit in", or gain status within the Party — to be seen as a loyal Party Member. In the novel, for someone to even recognize – let alone mention – any contradiction within the context of the Party line was akin to blasphemy, and could subject that someone to possible disciplinary action and to the instant social disapproval of fellow Party Members.

These 1984 references are out of control! Theres definitely some new meaning behind the BIG BOSS IS WATCHING you posters now:
mgsv-e3-2015-trailer-uwswe.jpg

That ending scene with Punished Snake smiling as big boss then seeing himself in the mirror and destroying it. Damn.

Kojima you sonuva bitch!
 
Kojima wanted to recreate the ladder scene but he failed miserably whit that jeep scene. Holy shit. This is not your first game Kojima, can't get over how that got greenlit.
 
Wow.

So ended up on this article about doublethink (another 1984 reference) thats actually the name of one of the final tapes with Big Boss talking about V.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink



My mind is full of fiddles.



These 1984 references are out of control! Theres definitely some new meaning behind the BIG BOSS IS WATCHING you posters now:


That ending scene with Punished Snake smiling as big boss then seeing himself in the mirror and destroying it. Damn.

Kojima you sonuva bitch!

This basically explains Ocelot throughout the entire series.
 
Doublethink actually describes Huey better than it does anyone else in this game
 
Noticed something interesting on my way out of Mother Base, saw Code Talker chillin on the roof of the command platform, which is only accessible via multiple ladders. I went back and tried to talk to him and he wasn't there, then I left via chopper and he was there again... 2spooky.

I'm going to try tranqing him next time I play and see what happens.

 
Mo like Creep Talker
 
Im seeing it now. Its coming together.

Looking forward to reading more analysis on the ending. Probably already posted but an interesting one i've found so far:

But of course the actual identity of the medic is just happenstance. That may be the literal explanation of what’s happening in the endlessly complicated world of Metal Gear Solid, and it does help to fill in at least some of the plot holes we’ve accumulated over the years. But it’s only one side of it, and it’s not the most important side. The “medic” is outside the main action, a somewhat unremarkable character who assumes the mantle of someone much grander than they were before. With some instruction, a whole lot of practice and a total immersion into someone else’s shoes, the medic assumes the mantle of a legendary soldier. Sound familiar? That’s right, it’s you.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidth...l-meaning-of-metal-gear-solid-vs-true-ending/

lololol shiiiiiieeeeet. I don't know how I didn't realize it earlier. He pulled a reverse Raiden. I gotta admit now this is pretty cool. Trolljima lololol.
 
Kojima wanted to recreate the ladder scene but he failed miserably whit that jeep scene. Holy shit. This is not your first game Kojima, can't get over how that got greenlit.

I actually quite liked the scene. It felt like a dynamic one-take shot. The camera angle was nice as well. To me it summed up MGS - dramatic cinematography, some interesting dialogue and Kojima's signature dose of absurdity (song outtanowhere!).

I don't see why people are so shocked and appalled at absurd stuff like this. Kojima has done weirder in past games.
 
Man the one thing that really sticks out about the medic twist to me is letting the player create a character at all. Me, being a black guy, created a character in my likeness. Now I can do good impressions of Hayter Snake and Keef Snake so the voice angle didn't bother me so much (though the odds of someone sounding exactly like Snake and the guy being right with Snake are so freaking slim.)

My problem lies with with surgery to make him look like Snake. This is, oddly, one of the things that I can't suspend my disbelief for. You mean to tell me that they did full body skin grafts for a man that could have been Asian or African, but left scars on his face while replacing it? That he apparently healed fully in the span of one day? Players who were buying this game within the first month were probably aware to some extent that the medic in the helicopter was a Caucasian male. Also Big Boss apparently got out of that crash completely unscathed.

I kinda hope that the story somehow continues in MGO and the avatar you create is used there or something because the usage in TPP left a lot to be desired for me.
 
BTW Is New Order's Elegia in this game or was that just the trailer?

True, didn't really see that at first. Hopefully that means he knows he's a knob.

Now reading about Huey's family after Strangelove. Damn this family was in some fucked up shit. I forgot about Hal's relationship with his Step-Mom, Emma, and Huey's fate. Jesus.
 
So people still butthurt about no David Hayter?

People just want the game they made up in their heads and not the one they got.

I think I'm liking MGSV more now. Its basically like MGS2 where eventually people will appreciate the game more once they are over the knee-jerk reaction phase.

loooooool no chance is this game on MGS2 level. This isn't knee jerk, this is just dumb. I'm actually getting cut at people saying "lol people just want x, or y, lol they will get over it and like it because the twist is cool and u r teh player!" - take that elsewhere, that's not opinion, that's purposely dismissing other peoples opinions because you have your own agenda and you think the story is great. let us, who think the twist is just pointless (IMO the twist is cool but pointless) wallow in our own self pity after getting rekt by Kojimas horrible end to the franchise.
 
I actually quite liked the scene. It felt like a dynamic one-take shot. The camera angle was nice as well. To me it summed up MGS - dramatic cinematography, some interesting dialogue and Kojima's signature dose of absurdity (song outtanowhere!).

I don't see why people are so shocked and appalled at absurd stuff like this. Kojima has done weirder in past games.

The camera angle isn't fixed, you can change it using the analogue sticks.

And I think most people are complaining about the the fact that it's a five minute monologue by Skullface, followed by Snake saying nothing while Sins of the Father plays for no reason.

And we're made to sit through all of this, despite the fact the Metal Gear is in the exact same hangar it was at the start of the game. There was no reason for the jeep ride at all, we could've checked in the hangar and found it ourselves.

But then again, it's your decision if you like this scene, there's just a lot of reasons not to like it too ;-)
 
Venom's model in Ground Zeroes (closest thing to a canon appearance pre-surgery) actually has enough similarity to Boss to make it believable.

wowitsnothing.jpg
640
 
Just listened to the last couple of truth tapes. So the whole phantom idea wasn't even Big Boss's idea, it was Zero's. Zero informed Ocelot who in turn informed Big Boss who was all like "yeah ok, great plan lets do it". The length to which Zero is willing to go to help Big Boss is bizarre, considering how MGS4 describes their relationship.
 
I think it's weird that Venom didn't have a grudge against Big Boss. It would make a clear road to set up Metal Gear 1 and "Big Boss" attacking America.
 
Just listened to the last couple of truth tapes. So the whole phantom idea wasn't even Big Boss's idea, it was Zero's. Zero informed Ocelot who in turn informed Big Boss who was all like "yeah ok, great plan lets do it". The length to which Zero is willing to go to help Big Boss is bizarre, considering how MGS4 describes their relationship.

protip: MGS4 Zero vs Big Boss plot is retconned in this game, because Kojima. it's not bizarre, it's just dumb.

ReadyPastelFairybluebird.gif
 
Just listened to the last couple of truth tapes. So the whole phantom idea wasn't even Big Boss's idea, it was Zero's. Zero informed Ocelot who in turn informed Big Boss who was all like "yeah ok, great plan lets do it". The length to which Zero is willing to go to help Big Boss is bizarre, considering how MGS4 describes their relationship.

None of it makes any sense, the whole series is undermined by the idea that you could just hypnotise someone into being Big Boss. As far as I'm concerned, everything after MGS3 is fan fiction.

I don't mind Kojima adding 'layers' to characters but after the last few games it's impossible to understand people like BB, Zero, Ocelot. Nothing they do makes any sense and there are too many Big Boss doppelgängers and fakeouts.
 
protip: MGS4 Zero vs Big Boss plot is retconned in this game, because Kojima. it's not bizarre, it's just dumb.

ReadyPastelFairybluebird.gif

I remember Kojima mentioning that he wasn't going try and be fully consistent with every event in the Metal Gear timeline but going as far as retconning Big Boss and Zero's relationship is, just as you said, dumb.
 
Man the one thing that really sticks out about the medic twist to me is letting the player create a character at all.

This was off-putting in general and really bugged me at the start. In retrospect, I wish they just didn't have a character creation thing in general. Really disrupted the flow of the intro to me. Should have just stayed with that GZ model.

loooooool no chance is this game on MGS2 level. This isn't knee jerk, this is just dumb. I'm actually getting cut at people saying "lol people just want x, or y, lol they will get over it and like it because the twist is cool and u r teh player!" - take that elsewhere, that's not opinion, that's purposely dismissing other peoples opinions because you have your own agenda and you think the story is great. let us, who think the twist is just pointless (IMO the twist is cool but pointless) wallow in our own self pity after getting rekt by Kojimas horrible end to the franchise.

lol Irrc this is how reactions to MGS2 were too. I remember being so mad waiting the entire game wondering when I would get to play as Snake again. When the credits rolled I was just in neutral and mindfucked at what just happened. Its not pointless. All in all, Its essentially the same meta-theme of MGS2 about living up to that "hero's" footsteps.
 
That's one major retcon I can get behind. Zero being Dr. Evil made no fucking sense at all and I'm glad he's just a flawed human who made wrong choices, like Boss. This game did a good job at making the transition from tea sipping Bond aficionado to accidentally creating the illumanati seem more believable.

Did not like him visiting Boss in a coma, although I suppose the fact that he didn't actually have to talk with him and could just talk to him made it easier.
 
This was off-putting in general and really bugged me at the start. In retrospect, I wish they just didn't have a character creation thing in general. Really disrupted the flow of the intro to me. Should have just stayed with that GZ model.



lol Irrc this is how reactions to MGS2 were too. I remember being so mad waiting the entire game wondering when I would get to play as Snake again. When the credits rolled I was just in neutral and mindfucked at what just happened. Its not pointless. All in all, Its essentially the same meta-theme of MGS2 about living up to that "hero's" footsteps.

its the opposite theme of MGS2

MGSV ends on a sweet little love letter tot he fans, "hey, you're Big Boss!, you helped create the legend, who he is based on you! good job buddy"

MGS2 is saying "listen nerd, you're playing a fucking video game, you aren't a soldier, you aint solid snake, go home and be a family man"
 
The camera angle isn't fixed, you can change it using the analogue sticks.

And I think most people are complaining about the the fact that it's a five minute monologue by Skullface, followed by Snake saying nothing while Sins of the Father plays for no reason.

And we're made to sit through all of this, despite the fact the Metal Gear is in the exact same hangar it was at the start of the game. There was no reason for the jeep ride at all, we could've checked in the hangar and found it ourselves.

But then again, it's your decision if you like this scene, there's just a lot of reasons not to like it too ;-)

My favourite part is Big Boss and Skull Face having to sit basically knee to knee, staring unflinchingly right into eachother's faces for the entire journey. Just such an absurdly mundane thing for what is supposed to be an epic battle of ideologies and the final lust for revenge showdown; they share an elevator ride and then have a staring contest for like eight minutes :P
 
They should have just stuck tape over Snakes mouth. Would have lent a bit to the ridiculousness of him sitting there for 10 minutes staring into Skullfaces eyes while listening.
 
I still don't get why BB leaves Venom Snake a postcard addressed to your real name, signed from BB. Is Venom not meant to think for one second he's the real BB?
If we'd seen that in mission 1, we'd have figured it out, Venom would too.
 
I still don't get why BB leaves Venom Snake a postcard addressed to your real name, signed from BB. Is Venom not meant to think for one second he's the real BB?
If we'd seen that in mission 1, we'd have figured it out, Venom would too.

I think Venom will not understand the significance of it. I think this because Venom underwent that therapy to think he is Big Boss. But that would make him think why am I writing to myself. No! He'd think why am I writing to this random person and when did I write this! Kojima.
I think it's just for the player.
 
All vocals from MGS3 to MGS V are perfect, but yeah sins of the fathers was misused.

I think it's a great song, I just don't see how it relates to the game. Diamond Dogs don't have a whole load of blood on their hands and they don't do anything that's a means to an end.
 
I think it's a great song, I just don't see how it relates to the game. Diamond Dogs don't have a whole load of blood on their hands and they don't do anything that's a means to an end.
That's the trouble with most games that promises that you play the bad guy, like Overlord. You're still doing good and fight worse guys. Few games are brave enough to have truly evil player characters and even less get it right.
 
I remember Kojima mentioning that he wasn't going try and be fully consistent with every event in the Metal Gear timeline but going as far as retconning Big Boss and Zero's relationship is, just as you said, dumb.
What's truly dumb is that he retconned the twist of the very first game
 
I'm wondering how Japan is receiving this game and it's twists. I can't imagine opinions there are much better than what I'm reading on Gaf and other predominantly English speaking forums. But I'm still really curious.
 
That's one major retcon I can get behind. Zero being Dr. Evil made no fucking sense at all and I'm glad he's just a flawed human who made wrong choices, like Boss. This game did a good job at making the transition from tea sipping Bond aficionado to accidentally creating the illumanati seem more believable.

Did not like him visiting Boss in a coma, although I suppose the fact that he didn't actually have to talk with him and could just talk to him made it easier.

I see what you did there.
 
I think it's a great song, I just don't see how it relates to the game. Diamond Dogs don't have a whole load of blood on their hands and they don't do anything that's a means to an end.

"Let the world fear us all" - Diamond Dogs is a utopia with diamonds literally sitting around on the floor. A welcome home for child soldiers around the world. One big happy family, where even if you murder dozens of them you're simply cast out on a speedboat with food and water.
 
"Let the world fear us all" - Diamond Dogs is a utopia with diamonds literally sitting around on the floor. A welcome home for child soldiers around the world. One big happy family, where even if you murder dozens of them you're simply cast out on a speedboat with food and water.
DD was founded after the kast group was literally blown to pieces, then suffered two mass infection, one mss sterilisation, assholes who warp in through wormholes and steal shit, an insane boss that rolls around in shit and then holds a knive to your throat to get diamonds, another chef who is constanly angry at everything unless he is making burgers and kids that try to kill you and can free roam anyways. Working for Big Boss is fun.
 
I think it's a great song, I just don't see how it relates to the game. Diamond Dogs don't have a whole load of blood on their hands and they don't do anything that's a means to an end.

I don't think the song was meant for DD/VS. It was more meant for Skullface and what he planned to do. That is what I got out of it after his long ass speech.
 
I don't think the song was meant for DD/VS. It was more meant for Skullface and what he planned to do. That is what I got out of it after his long ass speech.

Uh uh. "Sins of the Father", which I'm pretty sure refers to Big Boss, and the lyrics are about a downfall, making decisions that paint you as evil and having to stick with it. You're right that it's more applicable to Skull Face than Big Boss, but I doubt that was the intention. Listening to the lyrics I imagine it was intended for Diamond Dogs as an organisation; "their blackened hearts", "cleansing flames is the only way to repent". Men being hell-bound, and Big Boss leading them there.
 
That's the trouble with most games that promises that you play the bad guy, like Overlord. You're still doing good and fight worse guys. Few games are brave enough to have truly evil player characters and even less get it right.
love me some Jade Empire, goddamn can you be an evil SOB in that game.
 
I still don't get why BB leaves Venom Snake a postcard addressed to your real name, signed from BB. Is Venom not meant to think for one second he's the real BB?
If we'd seen that in mission 1, we'd have figured it out, Venom would too.

I don't get the doctor not being told not to let that happen, and the doctor showing Medic Boss his face in a mirror before the surgery. If I were Zero those would be at the top of my list of things to tell the doctor not to do.

But I guess it lends some ambiguity to if Medic Boss was 100% convinced he was Big Boss, or not, and that can also be the case with the player.
 
Listening to Elegia on my walk today and it made me feel a bit ticked off with the direction MGSV went.

Every trailer for this game mislead us, and not in a MGS2 way but in a "the story won't happen the way you think it will" way.

Snake, in each trailer, was already a mad-man.

We saw him:

  • Probably shoot child soldiers (which turned out to be shooting a bucket)
  • Shoot his own men (true)
  • Have one of his men stab him (true but it wasn't a story related incident, which would've been awesome if it was)
  • Collapse in rage at least twice, presumably after huge losses (Africa and MB) (MB funerals)
  • Have conflict with Miller

and more I can't remember.

The funny thing is, the game delivered on most of this but in a very half-baked way.

The story, while there, is like an unfinished book that really needs proper structuring and editing.

Each character suffered because of it too IMO, in that there was so much jumping around that proper character development wasn't possible.

It's as if Kojima was rushed and was forced to put lots of the story into the tapes. I like the idea of the tapes, in that you can play them while roaming around but I just feel it was a bit of a last minute job putting so much in there.

Having said that, the story that is there is great and the ending is as good in my opinion. It's just that much the game felt like a rush job.

I dunno, this might not even make sense. I'm still trying to put together how I feel about the game lol
 
love me some Jade Empire, goddamn can you be an evil SOB in that game.
I still chuckle about the possibility of saying yes to the evil McBadguy when he asked you to give up, with ending sequence and all. Jade Empire was amazing. I really think there should've been the option of assaulting Skullface in the jeep and get killed instantly for it.
 
I wish people would stop saying "This is like MGS2 where you'll praise the game's twist in a few years" when it's nothing like MGS2.

MGS2 did get a lot of hate for the bait n switch with Raiden, but thing is that happened very early on in the game. Yeah nobody saw it coming, but they didn't just throw Raiden at us and do nothing with it. They built up on the concept that we weren't playing as Snake, but a new faceless character with barely any personality or interesting traits. And it all paid off during the finale on Arsenal Gear with The S3 plans. The game didn't just throw it out there when we arrived on Arsenal Gear, it culminated at that point. Ultimately Snake telling Raiden to find his own identity and Raiden rejecting the idea of being anyone else but himself, was a great message to all the players who played MGS2, more so towards the ones who wanted to play as Solid Snake for the entire game.

And the Raiden bait isn't even what people praise the most about MGS2, but rather the AI's foreshadowing of modern society and their methods of trying to create context. I love MGS2 for all of that, and while it may not have the best writing or dialogue, its story is pretty damn brilliant and worth every bit of praise.

Onto MGSV, looking back at the game in 5 years will definitely change our perception of the twist, but it won't change how the actual twist was presented in the game. For my experience with the game, Huey's Trial had just ended and Mission 46 had been unlocked. No build up, nothing. It's something that literally came out of nowhere, but for all the wrong reasons. Playing through the hospital again was a bore, especially with all the tutorial prompts. Although it may have exposed the twist earlier than intended, allowing the player to switch to Ishmael at certain points would've definitely been more interesting. Or perhaps during cutscenes we saw things through his perspective? Anything would've been fine really, but instead we just play the prologue again just to get a new cutscene that shows the twist before cutting to the ambiguous ending.

See now in a few years that's going to be very interesting. The debates for the "There are no facts, only interpretations" quote, Ocelot meeting Big Boss at 6am if he and Venom left at 4am, The 1984 references, and so on are all going to be heavily interpreted in the coming years. Even now there are all these posts going deeper into the game's twist and explaining why/how it could work, or how this actually did somewhat progress Big Boss' character in a way, and honestly it's made me more accepting of it. In the years to come, will we praise these parts of the story? It's possible. But it's not going to change the fact that the story was presented in such a piss poor way, ending with a twist that not only could've been potentially something that rivals MGS2 if it were built up to, but if it were also followed up upon in this game. Not playing as Big Boss isn't the big problem. How it's handled in the story is.

People aren't going to come back and say "Man MGSV's story was brilliant!" just because people have accepted the twist or understood some more of its interpretations. It won't change how Skullface is handled so poorly in the game, or how too much potential story elements are explained in optional tapes, or how Eli's story is literally just thrown away in the game near the end without any satisfying resolution. I haven't even mentioned Chapter 2's theme and how horribly the game plays with it, or rather ignores it.

Kojima clearly had big plans for the game's story. All of this cut content and potential "Chapter 3" leaks and what not are proof of that. But I can't focus on what could've been or how the twist could've been told better if blah blah blah. The game's out, we've played through it, and majority opinion not just in here but all over the internet is about how incredibly disappointing the story was. No amount of years waiting or fake 9/11 DLC rumors are going to change that.
 
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