This game was written by Kojima's most loyal programmer after intense brainwashing so the real Kojima could work on ZOE 3
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SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
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This game was written by Kojima's most loyal programmer after intense brainwashing so the real Kojima could work on ZOE 3
As much as it's fun to say Otacon NTR'd Huey into committing suicide, I think this game does heavily imply that years of Huey's guilt from the MSF and DD affairs led him to realize the weight of what he did. It wasn't just seeing his son plow his wife but rather him realizing how atrocious of a human being he was and that he truly was alone in the end.
In some ways I feel that's a more fitting end for him than Big Boss shooting him.
In some ways I feel that's a more fitting end for him than Big Boss shooting him.
ShockingAlberto
Member
It's just Quiet in a shower while you stand next to her in the cell, with a first person adjustable camera, as she washes her tits and hums. While a bunch of Mother Base soldiers are watching and catcalling outside the cell.
That shower scene was possibly the most juvenile thing I've ever seen from Kojima.
It's not even a sort of private sensual lap dance for just Big Boss but rather some public affair.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
Also I felt the people in charge of nations were afraid of big boss and his rise in strength. Not necessarily the individual soldiers.
After Snake Eater and Peace Walker, Big Boss is a one man army able to infiltrate and take down armies single handedly.
If all you know is war then why wouldn't you want to join up with the legend, than continue to follow orders from some beaurcrat making decisions over your life while sitting in a hot tub.
So all the other fan service was not enough?
I do wonder what Kojimas wife, or just women that work with him think of him.
Empty Space
Member
Didn't Kojima say that he went with that design to promote cosplay and sell figures. It's kind of gross, but in no way disingenuous. Maybe those tweets I saw a long time ago were fake.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
So all the other fan service was not enough?
I do wonder what Kojimas wife, or just women that work with him think of him.
Just like Kojima, they don't seem to play games.
No, totally true.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
sad thing is Raiden's lack of clothes at least made sense since they took his gear from him
Technically your in control of THAT camera, but yeah...
All the other cameras involving Quiet are Kojima approved.
I mean, you can design your characters so people want and can cosplay them. But this is like these idiots who design female halloween costumes by just putting "Sexy" in front of a random Wikipedia Article. Women cosplay tasteful characters too. Just make them appealing. I mean, yo ucan even design them sexy, but there is such thing as overkill in the case of Quiet. At least give her proper pants.
Messypandas
Member
Oh yeah you such a naughty girl ...
I'm starting to think that the whole "become a monster" thing in Japan might be entirely predicated on the horn and Venom losing an arm. And that's it.
If I'm remembering correctly, a loss of digits or limbs is seen as pretty bad (maybe taboo even), which is why you'll typically see characters in anime and manga drawn with a full set of fingers every time unless the art style doesn't have fingers to begin with. Anytime a character is depicted with less than 5 fingers per hand, they're either not human, or are in process of losing humanity somehow. The image of Venom having a red, prosthetic left hand is probably really powerful imagery for the Japanese in communicating that this Snake is the least human of all of them, at least superficially.
The montage training scene (how 80's!) showing the incomplete prosthetic arm (very clearly missing the little finger) and how much Venom is struggling with it could also be an extreme reference to Yubitsume.
If I'm remembering correctly, a loss of digits or limbs is seen as pretty bad (maybe taboo even), which is why you'll typically see characters in anime and manga drawn with a full set of fingers every time unless the art style doesn't have fingers to begin with. Anytime a character is depicted with less than 5 fingers per hand, they're either not human, or are in process of losing humanity somehow. The image of Venom having a red, prosthetic left hand is probably really powerful imagery for the Japanese in communicating that this Snake is the least human of all of them, at least superficially.
The montage training scene (how 80's!) showing the incomplete prosthetic arm (very clearly missing the little finger) and how much Venom is struggling with it could also be an extreme reference to Yubitsume.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Kojima just fucking sucks at naturally developing his themes and characters, and constructing a coherent narrative that sensibly comes together irrespective of the zany twists and anime themes. MGS and MGS3 do it best as they both operate almost like self contained arcs. MGS2 muddies the water for better or worse, but operates pretty well once you get a handle on the whole meta mumbo jumbo.
MGS4 and PW take a massive dive in narrative pacing and thematic development. MGS4 is elevated by fans because it, at the very least, beyond the bullshit, still manages to end things and for some that's enough. But it's still a game that in a final, post-credits, surprise exposition dump it brings back a twice dead antagonist to establish and end Zero as a semi-villain along with the Patriot AI system, and that Ocelot wasn't actually trying to kill you but hypnotised himself to kill you to trick the system to support you in killing itself. Yadda yadda.
MGS1 and MGS3 both have Liquid and The Boss, two antagonists developed incrementally throughout the plot either directly or via exposition from secondary characters (like their respective units). Developing themes is extremely important in good story telling, and Kojima has just totally fucking lost the knack. Thing is it's just a joke now. It's not "wow I can't wait for a crazy but really awesome and interesting story", it's "WOW LOL RUSE CRUSE THAT CRAZY KOJIMA I CANT WAIT FOR THE CRAZY". It's how you end up with MGS4's bullshit exposition dumps because the game needs to meet its stupid ass twist quota, and PW's let's have a bunch of nonsensical lore fucking AI robots. And why "The Boss's Will" because such a massively integral element of the entire arc...revealed in the last moments of MGS4.
MGSV is really exactly that. There's a bunch of great ideas in there, both just surface level story and theme ideas, and some interesting (if predictably cliche) storytelling through gameplay (like the mother base massacre). But it just doesn't come together as a coherent, paced narrative at all. It's a mishmash of shit; a revenge story where the pressure of revenge is never felt. A main villain who is never present. A story arc left unfinished and unresolved. And a "TRUTH" final mission that must be unlocked via arbitrary mission grind, and playing just boots you into the prologue mission with extra content. Like "okay you unlocked the end now so I guess you can play our exposition dump even though it in no way coherently flows into the chain of events".
Kojima has plenty of great ideas and I love his overall style, but he's a typical fucking "auteur" in that his seniority allows him to hold too much sway. He needs a fucking editor. He needs equal collaborators. He needs people having a big say in the things he does to help bring them together.
And that's another reason I'm so bummed about Silent Hills, because I figure Del Toro would have had a big impact on the creative process and acted more as a collaborator than Kojima's lapdog.
MGS4 and PW take a massive dive in narrative pacing and thematic development. MGS4 is elevated by fans because it, at the very least, beyond the bullshit, still manages to end things and for some that's enough. But it's still a game that in a final, post-credits, surprise exposition dump it brings back a twice dead antagonist to establish and end Zero as a semi-villain along with the Patriot AI system, and that Ocelot wasn't actually trying to kill you but hypnotised himself to kill you to trick the system to support you in killing itself. Yadda yadda.
MGS1 and MGS3 both have Liquid and The Boss, two antagonists developed incrementally throughout the plot either directly or via exposition from secondary characters (like their respective units). Developing themes is extremely important in good story telling, and Kojima has just totally fucking lost the knack. Thing is it's just a joke now. It's not "wow I can't wait for a crazy but really awesome and interesting story", it's "WOW LOL RUSE CRUSE THAT CRAZY KOJIMA I CANT WAIT FOR THE CRAZY". It's how you end up with MGS4's bullshit exposition dumps because the game needs to meet its stupid ass twist quota, and PW's let's have a bunch of nonsensical lore fucking AI robots. And why "The Boss's Will" because such a massively integral element of the entire arc...revealed in the last moments of MGS4.
MGSV is really exactly that. There's a bunch of great ideas in there, both just surface level story and theme ideas, and some interesting (if predictably cliche) storytelling through gameplay (like the mother base massacre). But it just doesn't come together as a coherent, paced narrative at all. It's a mishmash of shit; a revenge story where the pressure of revenge is never felt. A main villain who is never present. A story arc left unfinished and unresolved. And a "TRUTH" final mission that must be unlocked via arbitrary mission grind, and playing just boots you into the prologue mission with extra content. Like "okay you unlocked the end now so I guess you can play our exposition dump even though it in no way coherently flows into the chain of events".
Kojima has plenty of great ideas and I love his overall style, but he's a typical fucking "auteur" in that his seniority allows him to hold too much sway. He needs a fucking editor. He needs equal collaborators. He needs people having a big say in the things he does to help bring them together.
And that's another reason I'm so bummed about Silent Hills, because I figure Del Toro would have had a big impact on the creative process and acted more as a collaborator than Kojima's lapdog.
ShockingAlberto
Member
He said that after saying he's asked Shinkawa to make her design more erotic.
Then after the kerfuffle with that, he said "I created her as a response to over-exposed women! Once you find out why she dresses like that, you'll be ashamed of ever criticizing it."
And it's like, yo, you just said to make her more erotic for figures and to jack it to cosplayers, I don't know that that's a moral position you can claim any right to.
Thus people waited to see. And it was for marketing, for figures, for cosplay, for fanservice, almost 100%. She can't wear clothes because of skin respiration, but here are body paint costumes, also some clothes. Do you like her ass? Because the camera is going to show her bikini bottoms flossing it every chance we get her in a cutscene. She'll even take off her stockings for you in a lot of them!
CambriaRising
Member
You know, even if they just had some pervy soldiers just peeking from above it would have been better than what the scene is right now. At least then it might frame a little bit of shame involved with the voyeurism. Its just so...gross.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
Yeah, I already felt grossed out by that rain scene, then I watched the shower scene on youtube, I lost a lot of respect for Kojima and Quiet as a character.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Quiet feels like a character that is struggling to be well-written despite Kojima's every intention.
And it mostly sucks because she's the only woman in the game and thus the only one who has to suffer that.
And it mostly sucks because she's the only woman in the game and thus the only one who has to suffer that.
Japanese culture just shot off its foot.
I don't know how much the rest of you know about Japanese culture (I'm an expert), but honor and shame are huge parts of it. It's not like it is in America where you can shoot off your foot and not be an asshole. If you lose a limb in Japan, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is the Hand of Jehuty.
I mean, it's not like she is bad from the core on. Like people said, she has an interesting arc and finish. It's just that the majority of her development is objectification.
EmCeeGramr
Member
This is exactly how I feel.
Despite the wackiness and goofy dialogue of the first three, they all feel like proper stories about a protagonist who grows and changes in accordance with the themes woven throughout the narrative. 4, PW, and V feel like straightfoward entries into The Lore™ (The Ending! The Heel Turn! The Heel Turn, Again!), where you get your piping hot dosage of themes via a character shouting Wikipedia entries about them in your face in a 10 minute cutscene or a 30 minute cassette tape. Protagonist finally takes an abrupt shift (Old Snake decides to live again, Big Boss embraces Big Boss, Venom Snake makes a face at a mirror that means... something) in the last moments of the game because The Lore demands it.
Messypandas
Member
I feel like Kojima topped himself with staring at Meryl made her blush. Now when you stare at Quiet she bends over and shows you her asscrack. May aswell equip Snake with some GMP bills so you could make it rain too. Kojima lost his damn mind.
Krappadizzle
Member
Either way, time management is an important facet of any job. He's not innocent or excused from what this is because of only Konami. He's just as responsible.
akidnamededdy
Banned
Yeah seriously. I'm imagining one of his poor cowriters coming up with this neat female sniper character and an interesting arc for her to go through and it's all written out and Kojima takes his red pen to the sheet to add his notes and they're all just "TORN STOCKINGS, BREAST PHYSICS, SHOWER SCENE (possibly a rain scene too?), NEEDS GRATUITOUS ASS SHOTS BUT I LIKE WHERE THIS IS GOING"
"Hmm yea that's a good girl, go buy yourself a new sniper rifle with that."
Another way to put it is that MGS1-3 felt like stories which were told because the creator wanted to tell them. They each had a self-contained theme and a narrative structure which is very discernible. There's a complete idea there in itself, and it was told because someone wanted to tell that particular story. On the other hand, MGS4, PW, and MGSV have stories which feel like they exist simply because the creator felt people wanted them. MGS4 was the game that "ties all of the series together" because that's what he perceived fans wanted. PW is the game which told more stories of Big Boss and the rise of Outer Heaven because that's what he perceived fans wanted. MGSV is the game which "bridges the Big Boss era with the Solid Snake era" because that's what he perceived fans wanted. When you start telling a story and creating a narrative backwards, because you want the story to serve an objective, it is easy to lose sight of what makes stories interesting to begin with, and start to slip into what plagues a lot of fan fiction - it's telling for the sake of telling rather than there actually being something interesting there.
I have always seen fans of MGS really criticize MGS3 for how straight forward it is. But i think this is exactly what makes the game so memorable.
It might have a branching towards the goofy or paranormal. But in the end, it has a structure that helps you relate to a character. Both The Boss and Snake turning into Big Boss, at least for me, was very special. I felt like i related to the pain BB had... and how troubled he was to go against the beliefs of his mentor and overall, point the finger and blame everything on the government that put them in that situation.
It just works so well.
All the other games... except for maybe 1. Take themselves too seriously. Thinking that layers of meaning are more meaningful if you keep layering them with more BS.
In the end, i think Kojima just can't stick to one single thing and explore that. His ambition is as big as TPP, and most of the time. It impedes his creative ideas from culminating into something amazing.
My post isn't nearly on that level haha!
Krappadizzle
Member
It's classic Metal Gear. It's weird and awesome at the same time.
Graphics Horse
Member
Yes I loved that those lines were there. haven't looked into what lines were cut yet, where is the best place to find out?
It's about coming back from the dead as a vengeful spirit or whatever. It probably works better in Japanese but I wouldn't know.
It's about coming back from the dead as a vengeful spirit or whatever. It probably works better in Japanese but I wouldn't know.
Empty Space
Member
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Yep, and I think it's something people maybe forget. Beyond the often eyebrow raising, over long lost-in-translation dialogue exchanges, beyond the animu characterisation and sappy melodrama, MGS1/2/3 all impressively strive to stick to their core themes and character development and use those as a driving force beyond the storytelling. The protagonist goes on a journey, confronts challenges, is forced to question their outlook on the world, adjusts, and grows. Antagonists have their ideals and goals established and developed, supported by secondary characters that express similar ideals. Themes and concepts are established and why they often take twists and turns those twists and turns exist to offer revelation on the protagonist or the antagonist and to lead the story into new areas. Coherently and believably. It's how you can have Solid Snake sent into Shadow Moses with a directive to save people, have them mysteriously die throughout, and discover he's a vector for a virus. He was tricked. It's how Naked Snake can similarly be sent on a mission with an objective that by nature questions his sense of self (taking down his mentor), which is sensibly developed culminating in a revelation that he too was screwed, yet is still forced to carry out his mission.
What do we learn in MGSV? What is the character journey? It's not even a criticism of the Big Boss phantom or anything like that. Venom's story is basically "Zero and Ocelot turn a soldier into Big Boss, and so he does Big Boss stuff". The character he is at the end is exactly the same one who wakes up in hospital, leaving the only reason for his existence to add more KOJIMA RUSE TM to the lore.
X
Xpike
Unconfirmed Member
i think its sad that in the future most people will probably say MGSV is the best Metal Gear game simply because it had the best gameplay, if really lacking in variety of missions.
Also funny that Venom is straight up supposed to be an avatar of the player yet I identified more with all the other protagonists in the series.
Also funny that Venom is straight up supposed to be an avatar of the player yet I identified more with all the other protagonists in the series.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
Makes me wonder if the mirror scene was supposed to take place after the cut content (Mission 51 with Eli and the metal Gear)
GreyOcelot
Member
so i just finished the hamburger tapes. are the implying that miller starts some competitor to mcdonald's or something. is that the joke there? mcdonnell's hamburgers?
Graphics Horse
Member
I certainly think so.
The end of 46 is clearly the eventual end of everything leading right into MG1. The reverse of the tape is Operation Intrude N313. It would have to take place after everything that ever happens with Venom Snake. When he breaks the mirror and walks away, he is embracing the persona of Big Boss for the last time before he confronts Solid Snake.
akidnamededdy
Banned
I feel like a good enough "big twist" for this game would've been the fact that not only was Zero not responsible for the attack on Mother Base, but he's actually an invalid by the time TPP takes place. Retool the way that info is given to the player in such a way that it becomes the big dramatic twist (and not this body double bullshit), have it before your final confrontation with Skullface instead of after ten hours of post game grind, and I think it works out nicely.
- Big Boss feels a sense of remorse and longing for his old friend (much like how Zero does in the hospital visit tape)
- Elevates Skullface even higher on the villainy charts since he's the one who put Zero in his current state
- Once Big Boss eliminates Skullface, he sets his sights on the system that created him, the one that seeks to control the world--the Patriots AI network. Now he has the same goal that his sons all eventually strive for, and that system turns them against him and leads to his demise. He becomes even more of a tragic hero figure
- Big Boss feels a sense of remorse and longing for his old friend (much like how Zero does in the hospital visit tape)
- Elevates Skullface even higher on the villainy charts since he's the one who put Zero in his current state
- Once Big Boss eliminates Skullface, he sets his sights on the system that created him, the one that seeks to control the world--the Patriots AI network. Now he has the same goal that his sons all eventually strive for, and that system turns them against him and leads to his demise. He becomes even more of a tragic hero figure
Finished the game a little bit ago. Really conflicted and underwhelmed, while still satisfied in an odd way.
What are some scenes/missions you would have liked to have seen or played if the game had the extra year or so of dev time it actually needed?
-Mission 51, obviously
-Venom retreating into Outer Heaven as Solid Snake draws closer, in one last attempt to call Big Boss.
-Venom's dying breaths, perhaps on the radio with Big Boss as he passes.
-Big Boss coming to Mother Base undercover and paying Venom a visit to give him the reveal.
-Skullface poisoning Zero
-Zero visiting Big Boss one last time
-Huey's murder of Strangelove
-Big Boss waking up in the hospital
Just off the top of my head at the moment. There are so many things I wish could've been done differently or just straight up better. There are so many awful things about this great game and it's just really disheartening.
What are some scenes/missions you would have liked to have seen or played if the game had the extra year or so of dev time it actually needed?
-Mission 51, obviously
-Venom retreating into Outer Heaven as Solid Snake draws closer, in one last attempt to call Big Boss.
-Venom's dying breaths, perhaps on the radio with Big Boss as he passes.
-Big Boss coming to Mother Base undercover and paying Venom a visit to give him the reveal.
-Skullface poisoning Zero
-Zero visiting Big Boss one last time
-Huey's murder of Strangelove
-Big Boss waking up in the hospital
Just off the top of my head at the moment. There are so many things I wish could've been done differently or just straight up better. There are so many awful things about this great game and it's just really disheartening.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
Doesn't kill him though.
Yeah, he doesn't. He does something worse.
X
Xpike
Unconfirmed Member
But the audience knew Zero wasn't behind the attack since Ground Zeroes, so you'd have to change that too.
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
Having slept on it. Game is incredible. Story is intriguing. Meta-Ending is pretty cool.
The negativity here is hilarious. The air here does feels like MGS2 all over again. (and because of that I'm starting to appreciate it more) I don't see how some are incredibly salty over it. This twist was literally thrown in our face from the very beginning. I feel like some of you are expecting too much. Its Metal Gear. Its Trolljima. It was one hell of a ride. Enjoy it, because its probably the last time we will have something like this in a long time. :'(
Whatever happens to this franchise, it won't be as eccentric and unique as what the hell just happened now. Konami is probably going to attempt to turn this into a dudebro stealth game with a traditional story. You guys might like that. Its gonna fall somewhere in between modern-basic Splinter Cell and Hitman. Whomever is handling the story now, I don't even know how they would even hold a candle to the 28 years of craziness.
RIP the legend/legacy of Big Boss
The negativity here is hilarious. The air here does feels like MGS2 all over again. (and because of that I'm starting to appreciate it more) I don't see how some are incredibly salty over it. This twist was literally thrown in our face from the very beginning. I feel like some of you are expecting too much. Its Metal Gear. Its Trolljima. It was one hell of a ride. Enjoy it, because its probably the last time we will have something like this in a long time. :'(
Whatever happens to this franchise, it won't be as eccentric and unique as what the hell just happened now. Konami is probably going to attempt to turn this into a dudebro stealth game with a traditional story. You guys might like that. Its gonna fall somewhere in between modern-basic Splinter Cell and Hitman. Whomever is handling the story now, I don't even know how they would even hold a candle to the 28 years of craziness.
RIP the legend/legacy of Big Boss
Kenzodielocke
Banned
Well, letting Huey go is a bigger punishment than killing him. If they would've killed him, he couldn't have drowned himself in the pool because his son fucked his wife.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
We also know that Kojima being Vice President of Konami Digital had a lot of freedom until the new CEO of Konami was appointed this year.
Sure it's his fault he went GTA big (or bigger) with the budget, but its not his fault that his relationship/influence changed with the passing of the guard and that his budget/game got cut.
Shit happens when money is involved but shit hits the fan when new blood comes in mid project and feels that the project should stop because they fear that they won't be able to croup what they put in.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
Can I just mentioned how I hated how every cinematic in the game is shot in a one take? It was really, really distracting, and I'm not sure there was a point in shooting the scenes this way.
It was Fukushima, man. The series hasn't been the same without him.
akidnamededdy
Banned
I didn't really catch that from Ground Zeroes. I got that Skullface had a bone to pick with Big Boss and also wanted Zero dead, but I never got that the attack on Mother Base was ENTIRELY Skullface's plan and had nothing to do with Zero. I didn't get many of the extra tapes though so maybe my bad.
They are getting some revenge, Huey charges are not proven at all minus Strangelove's murder, Skull Face yeah they are proven.
Another thing why Huey would kill Skull Face? it was not because of mercy, fucker probably had to hide something in case he started to talk.
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