NotTheGuyYouKill
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It's fun to write about, but it'd be a nightmare to mod that.
Where would you even start?
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SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
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It's fun to write about, but it'd be a nightmare to mod that.
Where would you even start?
Love Deterrence
Member
Ya know, the biggest travesty of all this is that Flaming Buffalo wasn't made the protagonist. I want to know her backstory. She's a better soldier than Big Boss himself!
My interpretation wasn't that the Medic is magically transformed into the legend, just that he's given the same jumping off point (inserted memories up to that point) and they'll see if he can do it. There's not a ton of exposition on it, but from the way BB and Ocelot talk about the Medic you know he's a good soldier/fighter. It's fun to me to imagine Big Boss as more of a Batman character (he's a human doing great things) than a Superman analog (superhuman, unattainable).
...also I'm loving my brain's stupid insistence that the Big Boss name is more of a "Dread Pirate Robberts" style title in the end.
That is RAD.
I feel like the easiest way to tie the themes together is to show that the process of taking revenge would irrevocably lead to a change or blurring of identity. In this reading the memories of BB become the very embodiment of Revenge and the inability to differentiate between reality and hallucination.
Chakra_Khan
Member
With writing about it first obviously
.Let's start with the themes and how they were handled:
-Language
-Vengeance
-Identity
What are your thoughts on how these were expressed through the narrative?
FlutterPuffs
Member
I'm sure one of the main theme of MGSV is the insatiable thirst of revenge, and the emptiness that comes after it. That explains how even after killing Skullface, the war hasn't ended for them. Miller is still an angry shithead, Huey obsessed in Metal Gears above everything else, Big Boss slowly building up Diamond Dogs, anime fucking posters all over my Mother base. Everyone has turned into Skullface. Monsters.
It just wasn't told well.
It just wasn't told well.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
If you really wanted to keep Huey alive for canon possibilities, they should have just had him attempt to escape in the aftermath of his parasite release, and as he tries to flee, Kaz blasts him with a sawn off shotgun, destroying his metal legs and blowing off a chunk of his leg, later leading to amputation. He still manages to get to a life boat and flee in the chaos. Boom. Done.
I mean, a trial is great and all, but come on.
I mean, a trial is great and all, but come on.
Should have gone trial --> mother base attacked by XOF remnants/unknown third party/kids begin civil war (though you need to move Huey's crimes around again) --> Huey fucks off in the meantime
honestly Kaz going THE PROSECUTION CALLS A WITNESS and the mammal pod swinging around was fucking sick as shit
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
With writing about it first obviously
Let's start with the themes and how they were handled:
-Language
-Vengeance
-Identity
What are your thoughts on how these were expressed through the narrative?
They were all done poorly, but there was solid ideas behind attempting to tackle the themes.
I like my rewrite, but you all know that cause I keep spamming it: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=178933097&postcount=5301
Language wasn't done well. Vengeance, sorta, if you think hard about how Big Boss' hypocrisy and what he did to Venom in order to obtain vengeance and build Outer Heaven, but it's a stretch.
Identity... they definitely needed to more of what Jintor said below
Exactly!
It's an interesting idea, but done very poorly. There aren't many stories structured like that for a reason. Everything afterwards feels aimless.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
How about... they figure out beforehand that Huey is responsible for Strangelove's death (maybe tipped off by Skull Face as he wants to cause dissension within the Diamond Dogs), which leads to him freaking out and releasing the parasites, blaming Snake and attempting to escape. Mother Base goes into chaos, Snake is forced to decimate his own men, Huey manages to escape but not before being horrifically injured. Leads to a final desperate all out assault where the survivors of the Diamond Dogs take the battle to XOF in a suicidal last stand.
Eh, the only one that needed (well two anyway) is the Skull Face/Zero and Zero meeting Big Boss after Skull Face's attack/hospital.
also to be completely honest there's almost no real grappling with language at all in the main series plot. It's all relegated to backstory and motivation, which is okay-ish but it's all left conspicuously absent from the main plot except for the first outbreak.
there's no problems on MB from the different languages and cultures. Hell there's no mention of any real problems or even of any differences except for a few things like needing translators for simultaneous translation, Kaz mentioning the mess hall in the Hamburger tapes and so on. Everyone on MB always talks to you in English, there's no evidence of any friction or clashes based on cultural ethnicity or whatever. You might claim that DD is supposed to be another MSF in that they're all united by the common purpose of fighting or being a soldier or whatever but it seems like this would be an ideal place to use DD as a microcosm of the world and the problems you'd have in making an international fighting force.
there's no problems on MB from the different languages and cultures. Hell there's no mention of any real problems or even of any differences except for a few things like needing translators for simultaneous translation, Kaz mentioning the mess hall in the Hamburger tapes and so on. Everyone on MB always talks to you in English, there's no evidence of any friction or clashes based on cultural ethnicity or whatever. You might claim that DD is supposed to be another MSF in that they're all united by the common purpose of fighting or being a soldier or whatever but it seems like this would be an ideal place to use DD as a microcosm of the world and the problems you'd have in making an international fighting force.
Doctor_Thomas
Member
It's almost as if the meta narrative isn't "you are all Big Boss" but "revenge doesn't resolve anything, it leaves you with a feeling of emptiness and loss."
I think that's giving too much credit though. It's the hints of a good story waiting to be told that make it so frustrating.
I think that's giving too much credit though. It's the hints of a good story waiting to be told that make it so frustrating.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Skull Face should essentially be the third force next to Big Boss and Zero attempting to shape the world to the will of The Boss. You don't necessarily need to link him to The Boss like BB and Zero is linked, but have him be inspired in his own twisted way.
He sees the way BB and Zero are doing it, and says, fuck these idiots, the only way to truly free the world is to destroy language, communication.
He sees the way BB and Zero are doing it, and says, fuck these idiots, the only way to truly free the world is to destroy language, communication.
FlutterPuffs
Member
It is in a sense. That last conversation between Ocelot and Miller hints at it being so
Just like MGS4, not told well.
The Lone Courier
Member
When I first saw him in the early trailers I thought he had an undertaker look going on. I was dissapointed to see him cosplay The Lone Ranger instead.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
That's just the thing. Language actually being handled as a theme would have been great.
This game was sorely missing native Afghans and Angolans in the game. It's bizarre they weren't really there.
Imagine walking in on a stand off where Soviet troops are screaming in Russian at a bunch of Afghanistan villagers who are screaming back in Pashtun and you just trying to figure out what the hell is happening and what to do.
SUCH A LUST
Serious, the guy pulls comedy from absolute dreck. He does a fantastic job with the incredibly short stick he's given.
He understood early on what he had to work with and did the only reasonable thing...ham it up. Loved it.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
He's just fantastic. I love his performance. Wish there was more of it.
Venom is when he feels like it. The fight scene and the funeral scene in particular stand out.
He is really nothing like Big Boss but is an incredibly charming character when he actually talks. I feel more wasted potential in Venom's characterization than I do in not playing Big Boss's downfall.
Also, who didn't love him and Kaz giving off Pulp Fiction vibes?
Wow, I never got to see that fight scene, that is really amazing actually.
As I have had more time to think about MGSV I am still disappointed. While the core gameplay is magical the story just falls completely flat for me. For a franchise with such a rich, deep, and crazy history this game will be seen as the weakest effort. I'm estimating here and saying the average playthough is 60-70hrs to see what most of this game has to offer, far more than any other previous metal gear, but condense it down to story beats I would say maybe 6 hours total?
The intro is the most exposition we see, and in my opinion one of the best parts of the game in this regard (Kojima knows how to exploit the Bowie fanatic in me). We hear about what has happened to BB (Venom), and see his visceral reaction to the shocking news of his injuries, 9 years passing, and the loss of his left arm. The only scripted gameplay follows and it was mesmerizing for me, the escape from the hospital itself and the Volgin chase were extremely thrilling. As we get to Afghanistan the story beats level off into a complete trickle, but the brilliant gameplay keeps you engaged. This cycle becomes rinse and repeat, with kernels of story throughout but it never hits that intensity MGS is known for. I'm not saying MGS4 levels of cut scenes are needed (ever again) but V fails to explore why Venom/BB become the villains we see in MG1/2 The "only at peace on the battlefield" motif needed to be fleshed out, we see them take the first steps on this path, but there is too much time between 1984 and 1995 to not explore there.
This will always been the one that never got away for me, and I think meta troll Kojima knows it. Whether this was intentional or a result of the Konami fallout remains to be seen, but this game leaves me with a phantom pain about what could have been.
sorry for the wall of text essay (and the cheesiest ending ever) , just getting some thoughts down here as I wrap up this marvelous game.
DATABASE DATABASE
Member
Venom
Ocelots personality transplant
Skullface
Mute Kiefer
Parasites
Quiet with a bra to breathe
Salalalthranparus
Code Talkers dead duck delivery
Konami execs see all this in January
Kojima
It's like pottery
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
I think it would have been great if Skull Face was grooming Eli, Mantis, to be part of XOF force.
Like, maybe that's his thing. He takes young, gifted children, and turns them into psychotic weapons. That's his special soldier group, like FOXHOUND, the Cobra Unit, and Dead Cell. He would have eventually have done the same to Chico, but Chico died before it could happen.
He turns children into weapons. Maybe Venom tries to save these kids. Some he can, some he can't. Mantis and Eli escape. Some of Skull Face's actions are blamed on Venom, and he and the Diamond Dogs go underground before resurfacing as Outer Heaven.
Like, maybe that's his thing. He takes young, gifted children, and turns them into psychotic weapons. That's his special soldier group, like FOXHOUND, the Cobra Unit, and Dead Cell. He would have eventually have done the same to Chico, but Chico died before it could happen.
He turns children into weapons. Maybe Venom tries to save these kids. Some he can, some he can't. Mantis and Eli escape. Some of Skull Face's actions are blamed on Venom, and he and the Diamond Dogs go underground before resurfacing as Outer Heaven.
You're not alone in thinking this. Damn shame what happened to this game
Hmmm not a bad idea.
It's like pottery
hahaha.
Man, that would be an amazing chip in the "fake" theme. Imaging if he would claim to make his own, but somehow ended up in his experiments with a Skull Unit that is a cheap copy of the Cobra Unit. Like one to one concept copies. A sniper. A psychic. A hunter. A man in flames. And Oprah.
Another missed oppurtunty. Skullface could've been Kaiki from Monogatari, a man who knows that he is a fake, but absolutely revels im it, embraces it and views the fake to be superior to the real thing because it struggles and works to be the real thing and could thus surpass it.
Holdfing
Member
My only problem was that his Hungarian was so bad. In GZ it was very good. The emphasis (is that the correct grammar term?) was on the wrong syllables, but otherwise very good. In TPP I was like what?
Anyways, that's a minor thing and most likely not his fault.
The memory implants are really a metaphor for the suspension of disbelief that occurs every time you play a game. Players might identify with the characters they're playing, but ultimately, they're going to make the character do what the player wants them to. The player is in control of and becomes them.
FlutterPuffs
Member
I would split up the narrative in 3 parts.
Act 1: Diamond Dogs go into Afghanistan and Africa to hunt for Skullface. To their surprise Cipher is working to do so as well, and both go into an uneasy alliance to hunt him down.
They finally get Skullface, shut down Metal Gear and killed him. They take back bits and pieces of the Metal Gear back to base and begin work on building Outer Heaven.
Act 2: A cold proxy war is brewing between Diamond Dogs and Cipher. Both work in destroying each other's assets, and nations turn a blind eye on them considering both parties are also in their payroll. Things start to heat up when DD finds out that Cipher is building a huge metal gear. DD manages to destroy it and it turns out to be a trap by Cipher.
Act 3: The war heats up, with Diamond Dogs starting to be on the losing side. Venom decides to retaliate and orders parts of sahelanthropus to be used to make a Nuclear armed Metal Gear. This sets off alarms in the United States and they decide to send the mythical Foxhound unit to dispose of Diamond Dogs.
Diamond Dogs managed to stop most of Foxhound's units (mostly thanks to Big Boss giving intel), and also manages to capture a man who was massacring their soldiers left and right while being attacked; Gray Fox.
It ends with the base under attack by another Foxhoyund unit, this one just one man, and Venom Snake slowly accepting his fate, knowing he has turned into someone like Skullface; a monster.
Act 1: Diamond Dogs go into Afghanistan and Africa to hunt for Skullface. To their surprise Cipher is working to do so as well, and both go into an uneasy alliance to hunt him down.
They finally get Skullface, shut down Metal Gear and killed him. They take back bits and pieces of the Metal Gear back to base and begin work on building Outer Heaven.
Act 2: A cold proxy war is brewing between Diamond Dogs and Cipher. Both work in destroying each other's assets, and nations turn a blind eye on them considering both parties are also in their payroll. Things start to heat up when DD finds out that Cipher is building a huge metal gear. DD manages to destroy it and it turns out to be a trap by Cipher.
Act 3: The war heats up, with Diamond Dogs starting to be on the losing side. Venom decides to retaliate and orders parts of sahelanthropus to be used to make a Nuclear armed Metal Gear. This sets off alarms in the United States and they decide to send the mythical Foxhound unit to dispose of Diamond Dogs.
Diamond Dogs managed to stop most of Foxhound's units (mostly thanks to Big Boss giving intel), and also manages to capture a man who was massacring their soldiers left and right while being attacked; Gray Fox.
It ends with the base under attack by another Foxhoyund unit, this one just one man, and Venom Snake slowly accepting his fate, knowing he has turned into someone like Skullface; a monster.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Man, I wanted some good conversations between Snake and Skull Face.
imagine if before the final confrontation, Skull Face and Snake converse over a radio in some distant, burned land...
Ooooh, that's interesting.
imagine if before the final confrontation, Skull Face and Snake converse over a radio in some distant, burned land...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V_86OQViQE
Ooooh, that's interesting.
Hellwarden
Member
You mean Ocelot just staying on Motherbase for 99% of the game, never fighting, and never emoting really on any level was boring to you?
I don't understand. Ocelot sometimes growled convincingly in some of the cutscenes!
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Ocelot should have had a way more active story arc. I wanted to see more of him assisting Venom. There could have been a few story missions in Africa where he could have helped.
Chakra_Khan
Member
Here's the thing:
Love you're rewrite. It's closer to what we should have seen. However, I think that with the theme of vengeance, I would've have channeled Chan Wook parks style, a la oldboy, and made the act of vengeance a much more potent and vile acid. Skullface could've been portrayed as an incredibly endearing character in his own way and a mastermind who, in the final confrontation before his death, reveals his sickening plot of revenge against bb by corrupting him fully. I'm not sure how the plot would accommodate this but he would be like the joker to big boss' batman.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
If the Zero tapes were made into a cinematic ending I think a lot less people would be complaining about lack of closure.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
I don't think there's any way to 'endear' Skull Face, but having the final outcome be a Pyrrhic victory for Venom and Big Boss with Skull Face 'winning' by forcing them to totally succumb to their rage and bloodlust would be a knock out of an ending. Though, they're pretty much on a revenge war path throughout the game (asides from the rebuilding MB stuff).
You could have it so that at the end Skull Face pushes one button too many. The parasite attack on Venom's men on MB pushes him and Kaz over the edge, hence the suicide run and shelling of Camp Omega. It's technically American soil which means that by blowing it to hell, Kaz and Venom declare war on the United States. They finally went over the edge. While Skull Face dies, he pegs a lot of his crimes on Diamond Dogs and they go down in history as nutjobs.
TwoDurans
"Never said I wasn't a hypocrite."
No? I haven't played Mission 45 yet, but looking online it seems that I need to play all the non-repeating story missions, all the yellow side ops, listen to all the yellow tapes, and fully upgrade MB.
Is that not the case? Will 46 unlock right after 45?
I think it just might be the first three. 46 opened up right after 45 for me IIRC, and that was like a week ago. I'm at 90% completion and still missing one platform so max MB is definitely not required.
Unless by fully upgraded they mean one of each of the main platforms but I don't know.
TwoDurans
"Never said I wasn't a hypocrite."
Good to know, thanks! I plan on playing SO150/M45 right after I've been able to develop a few new weapons that should help make that one easier.
Valkyri von Thanatos
Member
Just thought I'd drop in randomly for a silly MGS Peace Walker animation.
There are a few more good ones on the same channel, this is one of the best.
They made some short stuff for the "ROCKET PUNCH" reveal, so maybe they'll do a "Wolbachia/Pax Hamburgana" one?? Anything to ease the Phantom Pain..
There are a few more good ones on the same channel, this is one of the best.
They made some short stuff for the "ROCKET PUNCH" reveal, so maybe they'll do a "Wolbachia/Pax Hamburgana" one?? Anything to ease the Phantom Pain..
46 was unlocked for me after I finished 43 or 44 and I hadn't listened to all the yellow tapes.
Empty Space
Member
so Ocelot is actually Ocelot in MGO
I wonder if the Ocelot flamboyance was tied to buddy stuff, but when they scrapped the idea of him being one his personality got neutered.
If only he would do SOMETHING, like scouting places where you don't go, infiltrating something. Instead he is sitting with Miller in the control room all day and does who knows what. I mean, granted he trained DD and properly hold Miller back everytime he wanted to kill Quiet, but that's it. Ocelot is basically a hikikomori this game.
WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO?
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
I swear people will still be citing this years later. This is "You must defeat Sheng Long to stand a chance" and "A miserable pile of secrets" tier
It's an ARG. Konami removed Kojima from everything. At the next conference somebody will ask them about him and securiy will drag out Konami PR while he screams: "WHOOOOOOOOOOO?!"
Love Deterrence
Member
Hey, Shallowshaska is a deep character ya know!
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
I really want to introduce someone to this series chronologically. Would be awesome to see their reactions to Big Boss turning evil, Eli and Mantis showing up again at Shadow Moses, Dr. Clark being responsible for Gray Fox's ninja'd nature, EVA finally showing up again in 4, etc.
I would be on the edge of my seat awaiting their reactions to everything
I would be on the edge of my seat awaiting their reactions to everything
Doctor_Thomas
Member
General help - is there a decent place to boost resources, specifically fuel, but anything really?
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