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[razzmahtazz]

I've said it before but this is nonsense and not implied by the game at all. It's a poor excuse with no legs to stand on, just like all the others.

Big Boss was a legend already, there are no lies. He did all the things that made him a legend and his progression as a legend was already depicted, from his impossible mission in Snake Eater, to his realization that he's a natural leader who resolves to direct his own fate, to a legendary commander ready to literally take on the world without allies with a firm ambition and concrete dream for the world itself. Big Boss still continues being a legend by intervening in conflicts globally even after Venom Snake wakes up, making Venom Snake utterly pointless because Big Boss was putting himself in the very situations Venom Snake was created to prevent.

Venom Snake did nothing worth noting, none of his exploits are conveyed, mentioned or hinted at by later titles. He contributed nothing to the legend of Big Boss. The legend the characters of the series and we the players ourselves hear about does not involve Venom Snake at all. We've heard of Big Boss' exploits in Russia, Mozambique, Columbia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Kuwait, and so on. Nothing about Afghanistan or Angola, because nothing that happened there mattered to later events or even remembered by anyone directly involved in them. Ocelot and Miller are complete opposites of their established personalities.

If Kojima wanted to deconstruct the legend of Big Boss, he would've shown us his exploits that have actually been mentioned in passing throughout the series. Instead, we get a completely throwaway and utterly inconsequential series of events that explain nothing and add nothing. Liquid mentions in MGS1 that Big Boss belittled him as inferior, but he never met the real Big Boss and not even Venom Snake actually said anything to him of that nature, instead quite the opposite.

Kojima just wanted a twist for the sake of a twist. It's hard to decipher the motivation behind it because there was none, no explanation makes sense because the twist wasn't a natural progression of any plot points. It was shoehorned in for the sake of a cheap shock factor. In the end we're left with a story that is of absolutely no consequence to anything else in the series, with Portable Ops and Peace Walker having far much more immediate relevance.

Eh he has a good 11 years to live up to the legend, moreso that BB is working in the shadows. Which characters are yet to meet BB in 84? Raven, Sniper Wolf, Frank Jaeger. Thats all I got on the top of my head.

As for Liquid, he seems delusional enough that I can let it go as whatever he said was the ramblings of an angry adolescent. "OMG my dad just doesnt understand me!!!!!"

 

[Resilient]

booting this up for the first time since disaster day.

feels weird mang.

 

[News Bot]

Eh he has a good 11 years to live up to the legend, moreso that BB is working in the shadows. Which characters are yet to meet BB in 84? Raven, Sniper Wolf, Frank Jaeger. Thats all I got on the top of my head.

As for Liquid, he seems delusional enough that I can let it go as whatever he said was the ramblings of an angry adolescent. "OMG my dad just doesnt understand me!!!!!"

Again, more excuses that explain nothing.

Big Boss never worked in the shadows except in 1984. After that he went back to doing what he was doing pre-1975. The status quo was always the same. Venom Snake's existence is unnecessary because he doesn't actually do anything he was created for. Big Boss didn't need to be saved from anything, because he faced those dangers head-on anyway. They both wake up around the same time from their comas too so it's not like Venom Snake was perpetuating Big Boss' legend in his absence. He didn't perpetuate it at all.

The twist is simply cheap and ineffective.

Does anybody remember Big Boss' character rating from Peace Walker? Venom is all A++ in TTP.

A for all stats. Though they're meaningless.

 

[razzmahtazz]

Again, more excuses that explain nothing.

Big Boss never worked in the shadows except in 1984. After that he went back to doing what he was doing pre-1975. The status quo was always the same. Venom Snake's existence is unnecessary because he doesn't actually do anything he was created for. Big Boss didn't need to be saved from anything, because he faced those dangers head-on anyway. They both wake up around the same time from their comas too so it's not like Venom Snake was perpetuating Big Boss' legend in his absence. He didn't perpetuate it at all.

The twist is simply cheap and ineffective.

Where is the bolded stated?

 

[News Bot]

Where is the bolded stated?

The fact that he took part in conflicts post-1984 such as the Mozambican Civil War and the Mercenary War. Not something someone "in hiding" would do.

 

[razzmahtazz]

The fact that he took part in conflicts post-1984 such as the Mozambican Civil War. Not something someone "in hiding" would do.

How do you know its the real BB doing that is what I meant?

 

[News Bot]

How do you know its the real BB doing that is what I meant?

The relationship between Big Boss and Gray Fox becomes meaningless if it were Venom Snake all along, and it makes Gray Fox working with him in Zanzibar Land nonsensical. Venom Snake doesn't care when he hears The Boss in this game and is indifferent to Ocelot and Miller. Why would he care about Gray Fox? This would also mean that Big Boss never knew Naomi at all, but he's very familiar with her in MGS4.

There's also the fact I mentioned before that Solid Snake doesn't bat an eye at the dramatic physical differences between Big Boss and Venom Snake. The only reason for this is because the twist didn't have any regard for established events, it was thrown in for the sake of shock. It doesn't work on any level.

 

[BotchPoppaPump]

Venom was created to take revenge on Skull Face, eschewing BB of the responsibility and steering him clear of any of the potentially corrosive effects of that process. Look at Miller, he's fucked. Never to be whole again.

 

[News Bot]

Venom was created to take revenge on Skull Face, eschewing BB of the responsibility and steering him clear of any of the potentially corrosive effects of that process. Look at Miller, he's fucked. Never to be whole again.

Never stated at all anywhere in the game. The actual reason given, to hide Big Boss from the world, is meaningless and ends up being pointless anyway because he openly reveals himself to the world. He doesn't do a single thing differently than pre-coma.

 

[Arizato]

So I've finally sleeped on it and I need to share my thoughts. I am sure I will say the same stuff that has been said numerous times in this thread already, but I need this out of my system.

First off, the gameplay and soundtrack were great. I wouldn't have stuck with this for 70 hours with the disjointed story if it wasn't really fun to play.

Now, there were moments in the game where I was really invested. Quiet's story probably is one of the best parts of the game. I was surprised how much they made me feel for that character in the end. She is a badass character dragged down with the fact that she had to be clothed so ridiculously. The whole time she is at mother base she is treated like shit by everyone, I just wanted to beat the shit out of every soldier treating her the way they did. The fact that she doesn't break and kills everyone there with the parasite, instead just sacrificing herself when saving Venom in the end makes her one of the more heroic characters in the entire game. The whole last mission had me at the edge of my seat and the ending to it was so damn emotional. Episode 45 ending with Quiet's theme in the credits was so great! It's just weird to think about it. When I first saw her in the E3 2013 trailer I didn't know she would have such an awesome story arc. I really liked the rain scene. The first part of it along with Quiet's clothing just made it awkward though. The last couple of that cutscene felt heartfelt as hell! It also makes the last tape she made Venom all the more sad.

All the stuff with Paz really got to me as well. I was so invested in all the lore around Paz in Peace Walker as well as Ground Zeroes. The fact that her loyalty faltered in the end of Peace Walker, wanting to go to Big Boss' side was really interesting. I was baffled to find her in the Medic Bay at Mother Base in the Phantom Pain and I became obsessed with finding the pictures so I could see where they went with it. I wasn't really surprised by how the whole thing was essentially just a dream. Those tapes were really emotional, especially the last one.

Also a quick shoutout to Mission 43, where you kill your own soldiers in the Quarantine zone. That whole mission was really well done and seeing soldiers die in front of you while the iDroid stated: "A staff member has died" was a really surreal experience. The fact that you had to kill everyone in the end, losing heroism along the way was a great way to show that Venom started going down a dark route.


HOWEVER... All this is almost ruined for me after seeing the "Truth" chapter. The whole arc with Paz really doesn't make much sense for me anymore. Yeah, you could argue the medic was feeling guilty over the fact that he couldn't get the other bomb out, but it doesn't feel like a compelling enough reason for him to have those "dreams" about her. If anything those tapes you listen to feel like they are directed to the real Big Boss. The Quiet and Mission 43 thing still stands though, as they were new things that the real Big Boss never dealt with.

I've heard/read several times now that this Ahab/Venom Snake thing is comparable to the Raiden twist in MGS2. I do see the point trying to be made here, but it's not the same according to me since you found out that you weren't playing as Solid Snake in 1 hour of MGS2. You played the entirety MGS2 knowing that you didn't play as Solid Snake. In MGSV however, you get this twist at the very end after you have spent 60-100 hours in the game and to me this feels like a punch in the face. It doesn't feel like you are playing a key role anymore. More like you are playing a pupppet which has no impact on the overall story except for the fact that you have to die in MG1 at the hands of Solid Snake. I don't even want to go back and complete the rest of the Side missions since I am not playing as the real deal.

I can see what Kojima wanted to say with this ending. The fact that he more or less says that everyone that played this series to this point is a part of Big Boss is a really heartfelt way to say goodbye, but it wasn't handled that well storywise.

I watched episode 51 on my Collector's Edition disc and it is baffling how they just leave Eli's story without a conclusion. It directly contradicts MGS1 with the fact that Liquid is so obsessed with REX when he stole a much more powerful Metal Gear earlier in the timeline.

It's so surreal to stand here, 3 years later after the Phantom Pain reveal and feel so disappointed with the story. I knew I was up for some disappointment after 3 years of hype. But the fact that this series ends on such a weak story is disappointing as hell.

Finally, some questions/thoughts that started popping into my mind:

1. Why was Psycho Mantis so underplayed, yet so central to the story? Ocelot talks alot about him in the tapes, but there is nothing tying him or even hinting how he became part of Foxhound.

2. Why was Huey handled so badly? In Peace Walker he was a wacky scientist, but a really likable character, similar to his son Otacon in so many ways. In The Phantom Pain he is just a piece of shit and there is nothing to explain it. He just kills the woman he was in love with since Peace Walker, tries to experiment on his child and just lies about everything. What the hell happened? He gains nothing from turning into a real psycho.

3. It's a shame that many of the characters from the earlier games didn't get followed up on, besides a few in the tapes I was hoping for more details to what happened to some side-characters.

Well, this has gone on for long enough. I feel so empty, yet I have so much to discuss.

 

[The Silver]

How do you know its the real BB doing that is what I meant?

It would have been better if Kojima actually showed Venom doing something BB was known for. Have him be the one who started the "Saladin" nickname, have him rescue Gray Fox or someone from Foxhound, dont drop the ball with Eli by having Venom act all nice to him, making older Liquid seem insane.

You put in some of that stuff and you can easily extrapolate from there that Venom likely did most of the things BB is known for after Ground Zeroes. As it is we don't know what's what since the Skullface conflict is seemingly irrelevant in the future and we don't know what real BB does until he somehow goes back to Foxhound.


I think if theyre gonna do a body double than go all the way, as it is now it has no impact on anything besides Solid killing some fake and then moving on.

 

[razzmahtazz]

The relationship between Big Boss and Gray Fox becomes meaningless if it were Venom Snake all along, and it makes Gray Fox working with him in Zanzibar Land nonsensical. Venom Snake doesn't care when he hears The Boss in this game and is indifferent to Ocelot and Miller. Why would he care about Gray Fox? This would also mean that Big Boss never knew Naomi at all, but he's very familiar with her in MGS4.

There's also the fact I mentioned before that Solid Snake doesn't bat an eye at the dramatic physical differences between Big Boss and Venom Snake. The only reason for this is because the twist didn't have any regard for established events, it was thrown in for the sake of shock. It doesn't work on any level.

So you're basing all that on your perceived relationship between GF and BB? I was asking for something mentioned in game at the very least. MG1 or 2 or MGS1 whichever.

 

[News Bot]

It would have been better if Kojima actually showed Venom doing something BB was known for. Have him be the one who started the "Saladin" nickname, have him rescue Gray Fox or someone from Foxhound, dont drop the ball with Eli by having Venom act all nice to him, making older Liquid seem insane.

You put in some of that stuff and you can easily extrapolate from there that Venom likely did most of the things BB is known for after Ground Zeroes. As it is we don't know what's what since the Skullface conflict is seemingly irrelevant in the future and we don't know what real BB does until he somehow goes back to Foxhound.

Exactly. Instead Venom Snake and Big Boss are two very distinct people and almost opposites. The twist goes against its own "point."

So you're basing all that on your perceived relationship between GF and BB? I was asking for something mentioned in game at the very least. MG1 or 2 or MGS1 whichever.

It's not a matter of perception. Their relationship is well-defined in the games. Gray Fox was someone Big Boss already ran into not once, not twice, not three, but four times, and was his "most trusted lieutenant." You're grasping at straws.

 

[Sumio Mondo]

So you're basing all that on your perceived relationship between GF and BB? I was asking for something mentioned in game at the very least.

It's certainly left up to interpretation but as fans, we would like it if real Big Boss did meet Fox, Naomi and Sniper Wolf. It also just makes more sense for Fox to work with real BB at Zanzibar Land, since that's where Fox goes to work for him and he's captured at Outer Heaven during the events of MG1 (after real BB sends him off to kill phantom BB, later sending Solid Snake).

 

[News Bot]

It also cheapens the relationship between Solid Snake and Big Boss. Their battle in Outer Heaven left Solid Snake with PTSD and he yearned to "stop the nightmares" when he discovered from Schneider that Big Boss was still alive. He then fails to notice how physically different Big Boss looks to who he fought in Outer Heaven. He's now fighting the old man who trained him, not the young soldier with a bionic arm and a large shrapnel horn in his skull.

You could again say "they're both Big Boss" but they're so dramatically different they make this statement meaningless.

Big Boss has been built up as a character through progression. This game stunts that progression and introduces nothing but regression for him as a character by doing the opposite of what Big Boss has been established as.

 

[razzmahtazz]

It's not a matter of perception. Their relationship is well-defined in the games. Gray Fox was someone Big Boss already ran into not once, not twice, not three, but four times, and was his "most trusted lieutenant." You're grasping at straws.

Dude, I'm just asking questions, since I'm not that familiar with MG1 and 2. How are we sure that none of those meetings were Venom? Was Grey Fox being captured in MG1 a ruse?

 

[News Bot]

Dude, I'm just asking questions, since I'm not that familiar with MG1 and 2. How are we sure that none of those meetings were Venom? Was Grey Fox being captured in MG1 a ruse?

Gray Fox's capture was a ruse. His capture and Solid Snake's deployment were orchestrated to make it look like FOXHOUND was incapable of taking down Outer Heaven, to stave off further action from NATO. Also, again, people would notice the differences between Venom Snake and Big Boss in terms of physical appearance and personality. Making them so different shot the entire twist in the foot immediately.

 

[Chinner]

chapter 3 would have explained that venom snake is actually big boss and big boss is actually venom snake. an anti-twist.

 

[BotchPoppaPump]

Never stated at all anywhere in the game. The actual reason given, to hide Big Boss from the world, is meaningless and ends up being pointless anyway because he openly reveals himself to the world. He doesn't do a single thing differently than pre-coma.

No, there was no tape that explicitly states, oh yeah, revenge avoidance is also a key component of this scheme. But come on, it needs to be stated explicitly? Dude, there are no facts, only interpretations. The Mark Twain quote at the beginning of the Nuclear trailer? It was set out from the start. I don't think it's too hard to make the leap.

 

[News Bot]

No, there was no tape that explicitly states, oh yeah, revenge avoidance is also a key component of this scheme. But come on, it needs to be stated explicitly? Dude, there are no facts, only interpretations. The Mark Twain quote at the beginning of the Nuclear trailer? It was set out from the start. I don't think it's too hard to make the leap.

Except there was. Listen to the Truth tapes.

Avoiding revenge isn't mentioned once in the game. Big Boss had no say in Venom Snake's creation, he was in a coma at the same time and woke up only shortly before Venom. It was Zero who orchestrated the body double, and he did it to save Big Boss from XOF and "the world." Even though the world never tries anything against Big Boss and he becomes a public figure anyway along with a prominent military position. Big Boss going along with the plan at all is completely out of character also and a stark contradiction of his personality that comes completely out of nowhere.

 

[Dick Justice]

So just replaying game... What was special about the Hamid fighter in mission 6?? Is there anything special about the soviet-afghan war related to this game that I missed?

You get stuck with a useless asshole on your staff that you can't fire.

 

[Alienous]

It's clear to me now that Kaz creates a chain of burger restaurants called McDonell's for the name recognition, thus his 'McDonell' nickname.

Kojima thinks of everything.

 

[Forkball]

What was the point of a nine year coma anyways? That's an extremely long time. The distance between MGS 1 and MGS 4 in fact (story wise). Why not five years? Or one year?

 

[News Bot]

What was the point of a nine year coma anyways? That's an extremely long time. The distance between MGS 1 and MGS 4 in fact (story wise). Why not five years? Or one year?

Cheap meaningless references.

 

[Dick Justice]

It's clear to me now that Kaz creates a chain of burger restaurants called McDonell's for the name recognition, thus his 'McDonell' nickname.

Kojima thinks of everything.

And then gets sued into oblivion, and banished to Alaska.

 

[The Silver]

Big Boss keeps going into comas everytime he gets hit with a strong wind.

Liquid is a crazy person who thinks his dad who was actually his fake dad was mean to him but was actually really nice. He also tries to make his big comeback via ghost arm possession but fails spectacularly when Ocelot just randomly cuts it off.

Solidus is the biggest pawn in the history of pawns and ends up getting ignored by everyone, the exact opposite of what he wanted.


Solid never goes into comas, is not crazy and doesn't possess anyone, and overcomes being a pawn to save the world, and is remembered. He also had a hard life and doesn't whine about it.

 

[Dick Justice]

Big Boss keeps going into comas everytime he gets hit with a strong wind.

Liquid is a crazy person who thinks his dad who was actually his fake dad was mean to him but was actually really nice. He also tries to make his big comeback via ghost arm possession but fails spectacularly when Ocelot just randomly cuts it off.

Solidus is the biggest pawn in the history of pawns and ends up getting ignored by everyone, the exact opposite of what he wanted.


Solid never goes into comas, is not crazy and doesn't possess anyone, and overcomes being a pawn to save the world, and is remembered. He also had a hard life and doesn't whine about it.

But he does grow a terrible moustache in his senile years, and has his woman stolen by Pants-Shitter.

 

[Forkball]

But he does grow a terrible moustache in his senile years, and has his woman stolen by Pants-Shitter.

Snake hit it first. No one remembers the second guy to climb Everest.

The mustache is questionable though. Seriously that may be the worst thing Solid did.

 

[burgerdog]

So did I completely miss who Skull Face is? They mention that it's XO, but I don't remember him in any other game.

 

[Roufianos]

It cracks me up how Kojima probably thought he was putting in a heartfelt goodbye to the fans with the "you're Big Boss" stuff only to be responded back with a "FUCK YOU" from everyone.

Kojima knew the twist would piss of the fans.

The trailers made us believe that we were getting the MGS game we always wanted.

He was aware of the fans' desires and he gave us nothing of the sort.

I don't take it as a sincere "thank you", I take it as "fuck you, I'm trolling my fan base, as usual, for the sake of my own ego".

 

[Auctopus]

I'm cleaning trophies up now (still a lot of playtime I know) but I think I've come across maybe one S rank soldier, is that normal? I have the binoculars upgraded.

 

[Alienous]

They should of had the blood test take place earlier, and have Medic Boss be all like "I don't know who you are, kid, but you aren't my son". Basically disowned him based on the evidence, and Liquid (knowing the truth) interpreting that as Big Boss disowning him because BB views him as worthless.

 

[Palpable]

I've said it before but this is nonsense and not implied by the game at all. It's a poor excuse with no legs to stand on, just like all the others.

Big Boss was a legend already, there are no lies. He did all the things that made him a legend and his progression as a legend was already depicted, from his impossible mission in Snake Eater, to his realization that he's a natural leader who resolves to direct his own fate, to a legendary commander ready to literally take on the world without allies with a firm ambition and concrete dream for the world itself. Big Boss still continues being a legend by intervening in conflicts globally even after Venom Snake wakes up, making Venom Snake utterly pointless because Big Boss was putting himself in the very situations Venom Snake was created to prevent.

Venom Snake did nothing worth noting, none of his exploits are conveyed, mentioned or hinted at by later titles. He contributed nothing to the legend of Big Boss. The legend the characters of the series and we the players ourselves hear about does not involve Venom Snake at all. We've heard of Big Boss' exploits in Russia, Mozambique, Columbia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Kuwait, and so on. Nothing about Afghanistan or Angola, because nothing that happened there mattered to later events or even remembered by anyone directly involved in them. Ocelot and Miller are complete opposites of their established personalities.

If Kojima wanted to deconstruct the legend of Big Boss, he would've shown us his exploits that have actually been mentioned in passing throughout the series. Instead, we get a completely throwaway and utterly inconsequential series of events that explain nothing and add nothing. Liquid mentions in MGS1 that Big Boss belittled him as inferior, but he never met the real Big Boss and not even Venom Snake actually said anything to him of that nature, instead quite the opposite.

Kojima just wanted a twist for the sake of a twist. It's hard to decipher the motivation behind it because there was none, no explanation makes sense because the twist wasn't a natural progression of any plot points. It was shoehorned in for the sake of a cheap shock factor. In the end we're left with a story that is of absolutely no consequence to anything else in the series, with Portable Ops and Peace Walker having far much more immediate relevance.

Again, more excuses that explain nothing.

Big Boss never worked in the shadows except in 1984. After that he went back to doing what he was doing pre-1975. The status quo was always the same. Venom Snake's existence is unnecessary because he doesn't actually do anything he was created for. Big Boss didn't need to be saved from anything, because he faced those dangers head-on anyway. They both wake up around the same time from their comas too so it's not like Venom Snake was perpetuating Big Boss' legend in his absence. He didn't perpetuate it at all.

The twist is simply cheap and ineffective.



A for all stats. Though they're meaningless.

The fact that he took part in conflicts post-1984 such as the Mozambican Civil War and the Mercenary War. Not something someone "in hiding" would do.

The relationship between Big Boss and Gray Fox becomes meaningless if it were Venom Snake all along, and it makes Gray Fox working with him in Zanzibar Land nonsensical. Venom Snake doesn't care when he hears The Boss in this game and is indifferent to Ocelot and Miller. Why would he care about Gray Fox? This would also mean that Big Boss never knew Naomi at all, but he's very familiar with her in MGS4.

There's also the fact I mentioned before that Solid Snake doesn't bat an eye at the dramatic physical differences between Big Boss and Venom Snake. The only reason for this is because the twist didn't have any regard for established events, it was thrown in for the sake of shock. It doesn't work on any level.

Never stated at all anywhere in the game. The actual reason given, to hide Big Boss from the world, is meaningless and ends up being pointless anyway because he openly reveals himself to the world. He doesn't do a single thing differently than pre-coma.

Exactly. Instead Venom Snake and Big Boss are two very distinct people and almost opposites. The twist goes against its own "point."



It's not a matter of perception. Their relationship is well-defined in the games. Gray Fox was someone Big Boss already ran into not once, not twice, not three, but four times, and was his "most trusted lieutenant." You're grasping at straws.

It also cheapens the relationship between Solid Snake and Big Boss. Their battle in Outer Heaven left Solid Snake with PTSD and he yearned to "stop the nightmares" when he discovered from Schneider that Big Boss was still alive. He then fails to notice how physically different Big Boss looks to who he fought in Outer Heaven. He's now fighting the old man who trained him, not the young soldier with a bionic arm and a large shrapnel horn in his skull.

You could again say "they're both Big Boss" but they're so dramatically different they make this statement meaningless.

Big Boss has been built up as a character through progression. This game stunts that progression and introduces nothing but regression for him as a character by doing the opposite of what Big Boss has been established as.

Gray Fox's capture was a ruse. His capture and Solid Snake's deployment were orchestrated to make it look like FOXHOUND was incapable of taking down Outer Heaven, to stave off further action from NATO. Also, again, people would notice the differences between Venom Snake and Big Boss in terms of physical appearance and personality. Making them so different shot the entire twist in the foot immediately.

Except there was. Listen to the Truth tapes.

Avoiding revenge isn't mentioned once in the game. Big Boss had no say in Venom Snake's creation, he was in a coma at the same time and woke up only shortly before Venom. It was Zero who orchestrated the body double, and he did it to save Big Boss from XOF and "the world." Even though the world never tries anything against Big Boss and he becomes a public figure anyway along with a prominent military position. Big Boss going along with the plan at all is completely out of character also and a stark contradiction of his personality that comes completely out of nowhere.

These are S++ posts. You've effectively & coherently put into posts exactly what my problems with this story & twist are. I'm bookmarking this post of mine so I can easily reference this brilliant argument you've put forth. Thank you kindly.

 

[The Silver]

But he does grow a terrible moustache in his senile years, and has his woman stolen by Pants-Shitter.

woah hey now, Solid long ago kicked Meryl to the curb to hang out with his bro Otacon and destroy giant robots.

The moustache is just a minor character flaw that everyone needs, Hal explained that he can't go on being so perfect and needed one so his brothers/dad won't feel as inadequate.

 

[Salaadin]

Kojima knew the twist would piss of the fans.

The trailers made us believe that we were getting the MGS game we always wanted.

He was aware of the fans' desires and he gave us nothing of the sort.

I don't take it as a sincere "thank you", I take it as "fuck you, I'm trolling my fan base, as usual, for the sake of my own ego".

I think I read this same post in 2001

 

[BotchPoppaPump]

Except there was. Listen to the Truth tapes.

Avoiding revenge isn't mentioned once in the game. Big Boss had no say in Venom Snake's creation, he was in a coma at the same time and woke up only shortly before Venom. It was Zero who orchestrated the body double, and he did it to save Big Boss from XOF and "the world." Even though the world never tries anything against Big Boss and he becomes a public figure anyway along with a prominent military position. Big Boss going along with the plan at all is completely out of character also and a stark contradiction of his personality that comes completely out of nowhere.

I said there was no tape referencing avoiding revenge, I didn't say there was no tape at all. I know Zero's reasoning, I'm not disagreeing with you there, I'm theorising around the reasons as to why BB agreed to go along with the plan. His consent is the final step in Venom's creation.

And ofc it is mentioned, it's a key theme. You are named Ahab, you've lost a limb and you're sent off on a decommissioned whaler to start you quest to take revenge. A passing knowledge of Moby Dick would suggest that things aren't predicted to end well for you. Ishmael is the guy who survives the fate of everyone else consumed by Ahab's lust. And such a lust it is. And BB is Ishmael.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

But he does grow a terrible moustache in his senile years, and has his woman stolen by Pants-Shitter.

He still had a chance with Mei-Ling which is awin in my book.

 

[Hystzen]

Chapter 3 ends with title card and we hear Quiet moaning. Then a baby cry and only one sentence is said "his name is Jack"

 

[Chariot]

But he does grow a terrible moustache in his senile years, and has his woman stolen by Pants-Shitter.

"His" woman. he doesn't own her, she has no obligation to be his just because he saved her.

 

[Chinner]

Chapter 3 ends with title card and we hear Quiet moaning. Then a baby cry and only one sentence is said "his name is Jack"

Chapter 4 ends with the player discovering that Hal and Snake were actually swapped at birth: Hal is actually Solid Snake and vice versa.

 

[Dick Justice]

"His" woman. he doesn't own her, she has no obligation to be his just because he saved her.

It's called a joke, son.

Anyway, she was his right afterwards for a period of time. Because he saved her and stuff.

 

[Chariot]

It's called a joke, son.

Anyway, she was his right afterwards for a period of time. Because he saved her and stuff.

I honestly can't tell at times. There were people that were seriously upset about that.

 

[Ratrat]

First Dave and then Johnny. I think Meryl has a type.

 

[Hystzen]

That's what this game missed Johnny a Johnny has appeared every game. The shitting tape does not count

 

[Dick Justice]

First Dave and then Johnny. I think Meryl has a type.

She switched over to Diet Snake, because she couldn't handle the real deal.

(Seriously, the diarrhea guy is a clone of Big Boss? Fucking seriously?)

 

[Sumio Mondo]

That's what this game missed Johnny a Johnny has appeared every game. The shitting tape does not count

After MGS4, I never wanted to see Johnny again. Besides, there wasn't anybody that fulfilled that role in PW either. Or Portable Ops.

 

[JayEH]

chapter 3 would have explained that venom snake is actually big boss and big boss is actually venom snake. an anti-twist.

 

[Hystzen]

After MGS4, I never wanted to see Johnny again. Besides, there wasn't anybody that fulfilled that role in PW either. Or Portable Ops.

You can recruit Johnny in PO and PW a random guard will say he has a buddy called Johnny

 

[Anung]

That's what this game missed Johnny a Johnny has appeared every game. The shitting tape does not count

At the end of the shitting tape a voice should have said "And that's the story of your grandad, 'lil Johnny"

It's like poetry it rhymes.

 

[Dick Justice]

After MGS4, I never wanted to see Johnny again. Besides, there wasn't anybody that fulfilled that role in PW either. Or Portable Ops.

Could've brought back his granddad. Who was apparently supposed to make a cameo at the wedding in MGS4.