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SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
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Chakra_Khan
Member
This game, sorry, this dumpster fire of what your calling a "meta-story" will not, and shall not ever reach the level that sons of liberty reached. This is far from meta, this is second tier David fincher wanna-be butt mucous. And it needs to die.
(I think he means the meta-story of people searching the game files for conclusion)
X
Xpike
Unconfirmed Member
"Solid Snake is not a real human"
damn that's some Big Boss-like ice coldness
damn that's some Big Boss-like ice coldness
MAX PAYMENT
Member
My point is, were we ever promised a missing link?
Oldest Snake
Member
Intended to or not, the question is why wouldn't Hideo- everything-was-nanomachines-especially-all-the-things-from-the-previous-games-unless-they-weren't-in-which-case-they-were-the-characters-from-MGS3 -Kojima use this to fill the gap?
The game has well defined characters coming over from MGS3 & Peace Walker, a clear end goal in terms of plot elements, characterisations and themes, and significant events that are already said to have shaped the canon of MGS. This game should literally have written itself.
It was the perfect opportunity to link characters to other characters, locations to locations, events to events & games to games. It was the MGS4 of a potential plot with the number of references and connections that could have been made WITHOUT mangling the canon... and yet...
Robot Pants
Member
.......
Yea look above
https://soundcloud.com/gboon/sets/youre-fired-and-more-cut-snake-dialogue
Check the user for more playlists.
MAX PAYMENT
Member
Everyone's pictures are great, but it still provides no evidence against what I'm saying unless that advertising is dated around the time the game was announced.
My point is, what if the game was not intended to close the gap, then konami drama happened, then they had to last-ditch effort to make it appear as though it was intended to be the final game the whole time.
My point is, what if the game was not intended to close the gap, then konami drama happened, then they had to last-ditch effort to make it appear as though it was intended to be the final game the whole time.
Chakra_Khan
Member
Do you think that it would have been better if kojima made the twist wàaaaaaaaay more ambiguous only leaving clues in the prologue about the truth rather than coming out with out from bum fuck nowhere?
I think that it would have been more interesting to:
-have kept the medic masked. It would have given more leeway to the make your own avatar notion. I don't know if anyone ever noticed this, and this could be nothing at all mind you, but in gz, from the mission select menu, there is an msf soldier sitting in the background and every few minutes he turns his head and looks directly into the camera.
Emedan
Member
The Silver
Member
So an MGS6 would have been set in 1994.
Kojima still would have found a way to make up some totally new organization that doesn't tie in to Outer Heaven
MAX PAYMENT
Member
Lol. There was the intention of a MGS6, but kojima got fired.
PowderedToast
Junior Member
I would try not to read the marketing as 1:1 with kojimas creative ambitions. he might have a say in some trailers or whatever but PR is a seperate entity in its own right that will look to sell something in the best light.
how much affinity he and his team actually have for the mgs is hard to say, but we know that he wouldn't obtain near the same budget with something else. so in that regard it's easy to see how canon comes last as a priority. mgsv feels more like an exploration of masculine relations and sociopolitical subjects like language and its relation to capitalism and euro colonialism. stuff he is interested in right now.
and in terms of design ambitions he is able to create the sandbox stealth that mgs4 initially aspired to reach. so the setup needs to allow for that also, hence another mother base. no artist wants to be beholden to work that they produced decades prior, and it would be unfair to expect any more commitment to the msx games than what we got.
how much affinity he and his team actually have for the mgs is hard to say, but we know that he wouldn't obtain near the same budget with something else. so in that regard it's easy to see how canon comes last as a priority. mgsv feels more like an exploration of masculine relations and sociopolitical subjects like language and its relation to capitalism and euro colonialism. stuff he is interested in right now.
and in terms of design ambitions he is able to create the sandbox stealth that mgs4 initially aspired to reach. so the setup needs to allow for that also, hence another mother base. no artist wants to be beholden to work that they produced decades prior, and it would be unfair to expect any more commitment to the msx games than what we got.
Zomba13
Member
Here you go, the Japanese Playstatioin History of Metal Gear Solid trailer that was shown in mid August this year:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP0dNijW630
And again, the launch trailer (directed and edited by some guy called Kojima or something. Apparantly also worked on the game) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9JV0EvCkMI August 25 2015.
Oh and mentions of "revenge" right here https://youtu.be/UMyoCr2MnpM?t=2m34s
Dick Justice
Banned
Inner Purgatory.
funkystudent
Member
Big Boss starts yet another PMC called Outer Ops.
The big bad group is called Heavens Guard.
In the end after BB kills the bad guy he recruits all his troops renames his PMC Guard Ops.
LOL "The greatest mystery of Metal Gear".
WHAT MYSTERY?! WHOOOO?
28 years of waiting will be rewarded apparently.
I'm going to gloss over your thing about Peace Walker since it just ain't true. I didn't listen to any tapes my first time through and I had a firm grasp on each character, the situations they present, and their goals/motivations. You're reaching in that claim.
Now this second bit. Right off the bat, I played through all five in the last three months, so don't worry about my recollection.
You're reaching again, or willfully ignoring what I wrote to try and make a point. No one, least of all me, is saying MGS lacks monologues. They usually exist side by side with conversational storytelling. MGS V's don't. The vast majority, vast majority, of the story is advanced via monologue, and generally on tape. Not only is this a break from convention, its bad storytelling. Again, if you like it, great. But don't play this "other people just don't have the patience" card, and don't try to say its in line with past entries. Both claims are just plain wrong, said out of ignorance or bad faith.
Also, your bit about Volgin and Snake not talking, while pretty irrelevant here, actually highlights an interesting note about MGS 3: its one of the few clear story examples in which the villain and the antagonist are different. Nifty.
DATABASE DATABASE
Member
How Big Boss survived in MG1
Honestly, I feel like all gaps and questions i ever had were solved by this game. MGS4 answered many of my questions, but created plot holes with character motivations that had no transitional phase. (I feel like I completely understand Zero's character now, and how the patriots even got created by people that used to be big boss's close friends) I also never thought we'd get "fixes" to the initial 2 games' story to clean up the narrative there. That's such a crazy thing and I love them for it.
Wow what a mystery.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
After Diamond Dogs got exploded by Peg Leg, leader of a rogue Cipher suborganization, Venom Started up a new group called Cat People. Then that got blown up by Warm Coolman, Hot Coldman's clone, a precursor to the Les Enfants Terribles project. So Venom Started up a new group called China Girls. Then that got blown up by the CIA. So then Venom created a rogue city-state called Suffragette City in January 1995. In November of 1995, Venom changed the name to Outer Heaven as it grew larger and larger. On December 31st, 1995, Solid Snake was deployed to take Venom down.
Zomba13
Member
Biggest Metal Gear Mysteries:
1) How did Big Boss survive MG1?
2) How did the Cobra Unit have funky abilities?
3) How did Psycho Mantis and Liquid meet?
4) What was Otacon's Dad really like?
5) What makes a good hamburger?
...
101) How/why did Big Boss go from being a super cool good guy do a nasty man that uses child soldiers and threatens the world with nukes?
funkystudent
Member
Oh.
Since Big Boss didnt get killed in MG1 I guess it doesnt explain why he is half cyborg in MG2. I guess it could be written away with "dude is old. He didnt to strap robo limbs to himself to keep fighting" or something though.
Since Big Boss didnt get killed in MG1 I guess it doesnt explain why he is half cyborg in MG2. I guess it could be written away with "dude is old. He didnt to strap robo limbs to himself to keep fighting" or something though.
WrenchNinja
Member
Except for the part where it creates more plotholes since Big Boss and Zero were never at war and instead the complete opposite
Charlouie Jonesman
Banned
TsunamiOfSwagger
Member
1) Nanomachines.
2) Nanomachines.
3) Nanomachines.
4) Nanomachines?
5) Nanomachines.
101) Nanomachines.
2) Nanomachines.
3) Nanomachines.
4) Nanomachines?
5) Nanomachines.
101) Nanomachines.
MAX PAYMENT
Member
So, for the sake of being a smartass you completely missed my point.
1. I never said anything about revenge.
2. A launch trailer made specifically after the konami firing drama, DOES NOT go against my point that maybe this game was intended to have a sequel BEFORE kojima was fired.
bananafactory
Banned
What's with the thread title btw? I don't get it.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
Is that picture real? Wow...guess Tomokazu Fukushima really was the brains behind the story because what Kojima said does not at all line up with how Solid Snake is written.
1. Well, you assume that people are annoyed by the lack of closing the story gap, but a lot of people are disappointed with the story for other reasons (like being meaningless).
2. Sure, I guess. But Kojima didn't tell me to look forward to the rest of the story in the sequel to MGSV, so that wouldn't have changed my disappointment in MGSV's story as it is.
It's not even Big Boss-tier cold, even he said he saw Solid Snake as a human in MGS4.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
What the fuck, Hideo
bananafactory
Banned
Hahaha. Fantastic
if i remember right those bits about cyborg big boss were a joke about snake's revenge actually.
Zomba13
Member
Ok then how about the implied "missing link" in the E3 2013 trailer that mentions "Hell Bound" "Burning with revenge" "In Outer Heaven men become demons". That implies some sort of fall from grace, a transformation from the heroic good guy Naked Snake/Big Boss into the leader of Outer Heaven and guy who uses child soldiers and nukes.
While not specifically mentioning the words "missing" and "link" it heavily implies this is the game that sees the creation of Outer Heaven as we know it from the original games.
CreeperBlocks
Banned
What Kojima said doesn't line up with how Kojima writes Solid Snake either. It has nothing to do with Fukushima.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Exactly, saying the story was supposed to carry on in another sequel (speculation) doesn't excuse the terrible story we have right now.
His feelings towards Solid Snake were obvious as soon as he gave him a moustache. Kojima doesn't give a shit about him. Nah, Tomokazu is probably the one who cares about Solid Snake. He was the sole writer and director of Snake Tales, for instance.
Theres a scene in Chapter 2 with Code Talker on MotherBase telling Venom about Kaz having secret meetings in-between the containers in broad daylight. Then he tells Snake too keep his "Eyes on Kazuhira". What ever happened with this? Felt like they were setting up Snake finding out Kaz was working with Cypher still or something but it never went anywhere as far as I know.
It might not be the one we wanted but it still ends up connecting the dots we couldnt.
He lied.
It might not be the one we wanted but it still ends up connecting the dots we couldnt.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
BUT WHY WOULD HE DO THAT
The Silver
Member
1,Nanomachines
2.Parasites, son
3.Parasites
4.Liquid's arm
5.Wolbachia
2.Parasites, son
3.Parasites
4.Liquid's arm
5.Wolbachia
101.
Yeah I wonder that as well
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Once more with feeling
Repost.
This is my closure. I hope you guys like it.
Firstly, I feel like there isn't a proper structure. So here's how we play it.
Breaking Bad.
Bear with me now. Breaking Bad is the storyline of a "good" man who embraces a monster inside him so that he may feel powerful. He becomes a rising crime lord and he eventually falls, hard.
MGSV isn't Breaking Bad, but it should follow a similar structure, a good man who is essentially becoming the villain to everyone around despite not seeing it initially. But for MGSV, I see it more like... Catalyst (destruction of Mother Base), Rise (Afghanistan/Africa), Fall (Confrontation/The Truth).
Prologue - Ground Zeroes - 1974
Left as is.
Chapter 1 - Cypress/Whaler - Early 1984
The opening is pretty phenomenal. I'd leave it as-is, however I'd greatly extend it by including a Whaler section that allows Venom to explore the ship and get used to his new arm and such. Something short, but I want something a bit more impactful than the montage we get. Actually make us work with Venom to bulk him up a bit. I'd make the hospital scenes a bit more surreal, and see if we can work in some hallucinatory segment in the Whaler. Maybe visions of The Boss or having Venom imagine he's in a field of blood red flowers while standing on the deck of the Whaler. It's basically his programming bleeding through and influencing him.
Oh, and we should have gotten a wicked Kyle Cooper Bond-esque intro sequence with the 1980s inspired 'A Phantom Pain' track like how we had one in Snake Eater. Fill it with psychological imagery, broken mirrors, fire, blood, broken limbs, mechanical limbs, etc.
Chapter 2 - Afghanistan - Early/Mid 1984
For one thing, let's strip out some of those filler missions and have those be side-ops and bulk up the narrative in Afghanistan. The first missions is obviously rescuing Kaz, but let's have Venom encounter Quiet early on first before the next few missions mention her via the Russian troop dialogue. It's strange to utilize the Side Ops to turn it into a standard Episode to take Huey and meet Quiet.
Honestly, we also should have gotten a motorcycle here.
It would have made the vast expanse quicker and more fun to cross, it would have given another great option when engaging in open world stealth/traversal, and we could have gotten some wicked chases and shit.
Also, we're in Soviet controlled Afghanistan... why don't we have a bow?
Anyways, this chapter you get DD, Huey, and Quiet, while encountering Eli.
We're also lacking thorougly in boss battles and the fact that the Soviets... aren't fighting anyone!
Like MGS4, this really should be Snake wading into a pre-existing war. Why not be able to help the Mujahdeen? Save villages? Avoid them or make a choice? What kind of man is Venom, and by extension, you?
We have no bosses here either, so a longer, multi-stage battle with Quiet would be good. How about a battle against a legendary Afghan warrior that ends with you convincing him to join your crusade? An insane Soviet tank commander? There's very cool missions and gameplay, but there aren't enough of these dramatic punch moments.
And also, throughout this, let's get some interludes at Mother Base where Snake is suffering hallucinatory symptoms. Maybe you're walking along the medical base and you hear Eva's voice off in the distance, or The Boss telling you something, or Kiefer Sutherland as Naked Snake saying things, but Venom is not saying them. Doubt your sense of reality, but find grounding in the mission of revenge.
But one thing we really, really need, is a proper drive to solve the mystery. No meandering missions that just exist... End Afghanistan with the confrontation between Sehelanthropus, Mantis, and The Man on Fire, who continues to pursue Snake as he escapes.
Another idea is that Skullface has no crew similar to the Cobra Unit, FOXHOUND, and Dead Cell. That's weird. XOF should be a psychotic nightmare unit that uses gifted children like Eli and Mantis and turns them into weapons. Maybe Venom can save some, others he can't. Skull Face breaks these kids down and brainwashes them to do his bidding. That would have originally been his plan with Chico before Chico died.
XOF "Specialists"
Chapter 3 - Angola - Mid/Late 1984
So now we go to Africa, where Skull Face has set up operations as he continues to put together his plot.
The battle here is far nastier than in Afghanistan. I think just having the PFs isn't enough. This is during the Angolan Civil War.
Why on earth isn't this basically Hell on Earth? That's what it should be. This is where the legend of Big Boss needs to take on fiery, epic proportions. Why not have Skull Face playing both sides of the conflict, while fucking with the PFs, creating this nasty hornet's nest that Venom needs to wade through to get to Skull Face and Zero and kill them?
This is a situation that is fraught with wicked problems. Child Soldiers, Cold War Proxy war, Cipher civil war, ethnic cleansing. This is where the myth of Bis Boss is born.
During this chapter, the bonds between Quiet and Venom grow. DD grows up. Ocelot becomes more important to the running of Mother Base while Miller grows more marginalized. Huey's return causes tension but he tries to ingratiate himself to the crew. This is where Eli's presence comes about. This entire chapter is the build up and disintegration of relationships. Now, Quiet can't speak, so we need to go via sign language, facial expressions, etc. Ocelot and Miller are constantly at odds.
The missions in Africa are essentially about trying to erode Skull Face's support while increasing support for Diamond Dogs, and Venom and Skull Face mimic the Cold War by using proxies for their battles (the side ops/combat ops missions). Now these are sustained narrative missions that lead to...
Chapter 4 - Final Confrontation - Late 1984.
Okay, everything in Chapter 2 of the original game, we slice out and put here.
So this is a series of missions spread across Afghanistan, Angola, and Guantanamo that leads to a final confrontation between Skull Face and Venom.
None of this bullshit:
No, here's what I'd do:
Man, I wanted some good conversations between Snake and Skull Face.
imagine if before the final confrontation, Skull Face and Snake converse over a radio in some distant, burned land...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V_86OQViQE
Huey unleashes the parasites on Mother Base early in this chapter, forcing Snake to kill many of his own men, essentially decimating the ranks of Diamond Dogs and throwing everyone into despair after their victories in Chapters 2 and 3. After dealing with Huey, the Diamond Dogs have no choice but to take one final stand against Skull Face and Cipher. Low on resources and manpower, the surviving Diamond Dog members take the retro-fitted Whaler and go after Skull Face, at his last holdout...
Camp Omega. In the decade since Snake's coma, the camp has expanded to the size of a small village, with loyal XOF agents everywhere. It's a goddamn fortress.
Of course... the retrofitted Whaler... has goddamn cannons and the Diamond Dogs shell the coast, setting everything on fire. How could Ahab have killed the White Whale? By setting the entire world on fire.
Venom, Quiet, Ocelot, DD, and the surviving Diamond Dogs invade the Island, and it turns into a nightmarish hell on earth. This is where BB gets the rep for child soldiers, as all the orphans he rescued volunteer to help because they want to protect their new home. They load the cannons on the ship.
Venom comes face-to-face with the Man on Fire for the third and final time, where you realize that The Man on Fire is not real. He's another figment of Venom's broken mind pushed by Mantis's powers, a mutated phantom memory relentlessly haunting him.
Quiet is killed saving Big Boss from Skull Face, while Ocelot and Miller command the Diamond Dogs into dealing with surviving XOF psychos. Ocelot and Miller are able to take down Mantis and co, forcing him to retreat. Venom cracks.
Standing on the edge of the crater
Like the prophets once said
And the ashes are all cold now
No more bullets, and the embers are dead
That leaves Big Boss and Skull Face alone. Here, Skull Face reveals his master plan as the island burns around them. He asks if Snake understands, cause he's at the end, desperate to have someone else understand.
Snake's response is "I don't care."
They should have had Sins of the Father play over the final confrontation between Skullface and Snake. I mean, imagine it playing over this:
"One must die and one must live. No victory, no defeat."
The battle they do is a shadowy mirror of the battle between Naked Snake and The Boss in Metal Gear Solid 3, however, instead of a field of white lillies, it's in a burning field with ash raining around them. They fight messily, bloodily, it's nearly inhuman. Without Mantis, Skull Face can't puppet Sehelanthropus. Snake bests Skull Face, and before finally killing him, Skull Face tells him the truth:
"Say 'what' again. Say 'what' again, I dare you, I double dare you motherfucker, say what one more Goddamn time! "
Both Skull Face and Venom Snake are simply shadows of the real Big Boss. Skull Face, the faceless man in the shadows behind his missions, and Venom, the faceless decoy with false memories and a false life.
Chapter 5 - The Truth - Late 1984
"This story, this legend? It's ours. We can change the world, and with it, the future. I am you, and you are me. Carry that with you, wherever you go."
This is where it gets fucking surreal. Venom's real memories begin to break through the dam, mixing with Naked Snake's memories. The real world turns transitory while Venom is losing his goddamn mind. Here, Kojima could just go insane. This is Fight Club level crazy. Echoes of Silent Hill, why not.
I was actually thinking some of Hannibal's crazy moments. Anyway, you play through some crazy trippy levels where you can redo the Sorrow walk from MGS3, something from Peace Walker, and a bloody rendition of when the Medic got into a coma. A vision of Quiet leads him back to sanity... a vision that can talk. We can have a great long conversation here, like between Naked Snake and The Boss. Eventually, Venom gets his shit together and escapes, only to find out Eli has taken Sehelanthropus. We've already had the climax at this point though, so...
well, whatever, this is the final mission. Eli takes Sehelanthropus, however without Mantis at full strength, his Kingdom of the Flies stands no chance against Big Boss. That amazing scene at the end of Kingdom plays in its entirety, showing Eli's hatred of Big Boss, and Venom finally assuming the mantle of Big Boss, fully.
"That's right. Don't blame yourself. Blame me."
Epilogue - Outer Heaven - Sometime between 1985 and 1995.
lol, no.
Well, maybe.
Here's my ideal final scene. We intercut between two scenes. One, an older man with a horn in his head looking at his scarred visage in the mirror. He knows he is gonna die today. Win or lose. This is the end. The final tape, the one from 46 that was cut, plays.
The other scene? A young man HALO jumps towards a remote location in Africa.
He has some dialogue with a voice over the radio the concludes with his commanding officer telling him... "I have faith in you, son."
As the young man begins his infiltration, Venom punches the mirror. Credits roll.
The scene after the credits is the real Big Boss and Ocelot speaking to one another in 1984, where Big Boss and Ocelot talk about Venom and their faith in him. Twenty minute long emotional cutscene about them questioning their tactics and wondering if they'll ever be forgiven for what they'll do. Talk about the Boss. Closure.
I feel like this GIF sums up HIdeo's writing in the last year of this game's development.
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