Inferno313
Banned
I don't see how any of that is necessary. It's pretty easy to infer where things go from MGSV to MG1. Including all that stuff would just be more MGS4-level fan service.
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I don't see how any of that is necessary. It's pretty easy to infer where things go from MGSV to MG1. Including all that stuff would just be more MGS4-level fan service.
Me and somebody nailed this a few pages back - he's a great visionary director. He's not a great writer.
To a substantial extent, the former excuses the latter. In my eyes, at least.
That was the whole point of the game. "Friends can become enemies". The fact that the support crew was so goofy and friendly only made them more suspicious in my mind after The Boss' speech.
And don't get me wrong, I don't think Kojima is a "genius writter" either. In fact, when I discovered that the support crew in MGS3 were related to The Patriots, I was actually disappointed that Kojima was too obvious with the references.
bodyofanamerican
Member
Yup it's fantastic, especially the stuff about how it makes 4 better in retrospect.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
This.
That being said, it strikes me that some people's idea of "good story" is just having a splashy but narratively redundant metal gear fight at the end.
I am not convinced from MGSV that Venom Snake turns out to be some uber villain that builds nukes to threaten the Patriots in MG1. The character development isn't complete. That's the missing piece that links this to MG1. There are quite a few scenes that seem to be building up Venom Snake turning bad/rogue but it doesn't seem to come to fruition.
Also where da fuck is Solidus Snake? God damn that character keeps getting swept under the rug. Though I don't think a Chapter 3 can fix even that.
... I haven't watched the review, but literally nothing in the universe could make MGS4 any better for me. As in, nothing could make it 'good'. Let alone MGSV, which is a top 10 GOAT for me. I completed MGSV after 70 hours and I think it's a masterpiece in many ways – MGS4 I still 100% think about with contempt and resent.
I need to watch this review to try and understand his argument.
BossDarkseid
Member
I think, with the odd change, that applies to probably the vast majority of MGS fans once they play TPP
I don't think any Chapter 3 would have been necessary as much as a different structure + narrative would...I mean the questions like "What was Big Boss doing"...well....the wiki claims he was building Outer Heaven but whether you accept that or think that after Skull Face was taken out he went back to America to lead FOXHOUND...there are possibilities that don't really require two pretty identical character models with identical voices talking to each other to reveal it.Whatever he was doing, it could be communicated a whole lot better, but we know that Big Boss doesn't seem to have any animosity towards Venom (why would he?) in the time between TPP and Operation Intrude n312/n313 so I think it's more a case of he used Venom to build his interpretation of the Boss' ideal while he sat in a relative seat of power in charge of FOXHOUND and come MG1...we don't know, but the tape, whenever it was listened to, doesn't suggest he sent Solid Snake there to kill Venom because he hated him...I think it's more he'd outlived his usefulness.
I'm not sure we would have got a MGS6 if Kojima stayed at Konami but I feel like, with Zero out of the picture for the Patriots and Sigint left in charge, there could have been a schism between the "neo" Patriots and Big Boss which is why he allows Venom to be killed in MG1, faking his own death while he builds up things in Zanzibar Land for MG2 because now apart from Sigint/ParaMedic (who I think probably only joined Zero because of the power it afforded them rather than being devotees of the Boss) Eva, Ocelot etc joined for other reasons...
I'm not saying it's not convoluted but...I feel like the problems are more with this games story rather than with a potential sequel or Chapter 3 etc. I also feel like on a level the twist could have worked well if done well, but it was not and it certainly did not work in the way MGS2's twist did, but that's for entirely different reasons.
Thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat said...i still had a helluva time with the game.
My friend, who's a big survival horror fan, wants Kojima/Del Toro to get hired by Sony etc and create a spiritual successor IP (Silent Hills etc)...some people suggest Kickstarter but the way Kojima is ambitious with technology I'm not sure Kickstarter would cover it, but I'm equally not sure he'd be given license to create another engine if he went to Sony (I can't see him going to MS). He could probably make something that looks amazeballs with the Shadowfall engine.
Finished it. That was Excellent. Essentially sums up a lot of what people have said in this thread and also states his bewilderment at the bloated 10's the game got with such vast glaring flaws. His very last point about
defenders hiding behind the fourth wall
Actually, given the established chronology, MGS V has made it borderline impossible to see how the story goes.
If nothing else, having two public Big Bosses running around really ruins the logic.
Moon_frogger
Member
link? I can't seem to find it and I'm not familiar with bunnyhop
Moon_frogger
Member
how do you know they are both public? nothing at all confirms this. In fact, nobody knew that big boss was in outer heaven until venom popped out and said 'hi, i'm big boss' to solid snake. in fact, given the 'black ops' nature of foxhound I'd be shocked if anybody knew where the real big boss was during the events of MG1.
Game would be a 10/10 if you only spent like 25 hours on it, didn't really finish the game and watched the rest of the cutscenes through some other means while not doing the numerous repetitive side ops.
In that review environment even I would've probably given the game that high of a score.
"OMFG 60FPS OPEN WORLD STEALTH ACTION GAME WITH AMAZING CONTROLS! REALISTIC WEATHER SIMULATION! DAY NIGHT CYCLE! DAT BASE MANAGEMENT! SO MANY WEAPONS/TOOLS! LIMITLESS APPROACHES TO STEALTH! 100+ HOURS OF GAME PLAY CONTENT! EPIC CUTSCENE MOMENTS WITH ZANY MGS STUFF! NO MORE HOUR LONG CUTSCENES! I CAN PLAY WITH CHICKEN HAT AND NOT USE STEALTH TO GET THROUGH THE GAME EASILY!"
The game has all the checklist that games which review well do.
In that review environment even I would've probably given the game that high of a score.
"OMFG 60FPS OPEN WORLD STEALTH ACTION GAME WITH AMAZING CONTROLS! REALISTIC WEATHER SIMULATION! DAY NIGHT CYCLE! DAT BASE MANAGEMENT! SO MANY WEAPONS/TOOLS! LIMITLESS APPROACHES TO STEALTH! 100+ HOURS OF GAME PLAY CONTENT! EPIC CUTSCENE MOMENTS WITH ZANY MGS STUFF! NO MORE HOUR LONG CUTSCENES! I CAN PLAY WITH CHICKEN HAT AND NOT USE STEALTH TO GET THROUGH THE GAME EASILY!"
The game has all the checklist that games which review well do.
We know this from the other games. Like I said.
Absolutely. I mean your first 10 hours with the game are spectacular. At that stage a reviewer's notebook is full of hugely positive notes, their mind is almost made up, and they aren't going to uncover the flaws that become apparent to hardcore fans 50+ hours in because they just aren't given the time.
I don't really blame them, to be honest. MGS V deserved to be reviewed well, in a lot of ways, and it will deserve to be skewered in retrospectives years from now, which is exactly what will happen.
PedroPanache
Member
The cult of Kojima is a strange thing. I mean the man has wonderful ideas and crazy strokes of genius, but the meta-narrative that people are trying to create to explain away some of the games flaws is a bit much. It's a brilliantly flawed game that comes within an inch of true greatness, but, I guess, time just ran out for Kojima.
The lore is a glorious train wreck, but I'm OK with that. I don't think Kojima could ever tie things together in the way people hoped he would. He, too, was seduced by the legend of Big Boss and couldn't pull the trigger and turn him from hero to villain. MGSV is protecting his legend.
The bolded is hugely important and I think a lot of butthurt could be saved if people realised this.
It's true. Although I think it's more like the first 30 hours with the game are spectacular. It's a bit of a front-loaded game.
But the pure gameplay is so amazing I'm still loving it 90+ hours in. The story had big problems, but I even still love that. It's not as simple as "It's shit once you hit Chapter 2/50 hours".
This Super Bunnyhop video is great.
really shouts out my feelings about the whole MGSV dissapointment.
Obviously, he disclaims it, but he talks about ALL MGS and hence spoils all of them. lol.
So good.
really shouts out my feelings about the whole MGSV dissapointment.
Obviously, he disclaims it, but he talks about ALL MGS and hence spoils all of them. lol.
So good.
Goddamn, this game is unfinished.
Empty Space
Member
Mission 51 should really be in the game in some capacity. It's the biggest unresolved plot thread in the game and just because I know what the answer is doesn't make it okay that it was left that way in game.
Some sort result from the game constantly implying that Miler is going to wrong Venom somehow. There's that bit between him and Ocelot choosing a clone, but doesn't seem to be where that plot thread was going.
Venom doing anything that would justify the demon thing. Maybe the demon stuff was always supposed to be about Big Boss kind of becoming the thing he hated by doing what was done to The Boss to Venom, but it sure didn't feel that way. The most morally questionable thing he does in the game is continue training the child soldiers that doesn't seem to quite fit with narrative people were sold.
There should be a way to get Quiet back even if there's no narrative reason for it. It's crazy that you lose access to a fairly unique mechanic in an open world game for some emotional impact.
The old special weapons from MGS 4 and PW should also come back in some capacity. Their niche's are kind all filled if we're being honest, but not having rail gun in particular is kind of a bummer.
The damage is kind of done for anyone who beat the game, but remove the featuring parts of the credits at the start of each mission. That stuff really ruined a lot of surprises and I'm sure people who haven't played the game would appreciate it.
Those are kind of the things that immediately spring to mind to me as things that could be addressed without a significant overhaul to the game. I'd still have issues with game, but I can kind accept most that stuff as Kojima just being Kojima. I very much doubt anything is going to be done though. The ship has sailed Konami is done with traditional games and nothing is going to change that in a time frame would make any changes or additions to MGSV happen.
Damn... Just watched all of Super bunnyhop's video on MGSV, he's so on point, games journalists should feel embarrassed.
He raises an interesting point at the end, was the feeling of this emptiness of MGS fans planned by Kojima or was it from a result of the fall out between him and Konami.
Great video will watch again.
He raises an interesting point at the end, was the feeling of this emptiness of MGS fans planned by Kojima or was it from a result of the fall out between him and Konami.
Great video will watch again.
Kevin Shields
Member
Or you know... Different reviewers have different criteria. Just cause they don't have your opinion doesn't mean they should feel embarrassed
Watch the video, he was taking about the review boot camp paid for by Konami.
Resource management and costs in general for this game are just dick. I'd recommend invading five or six FOBs with 13 or less low-ranked soldiers per platform, and choosing the platform that gives fuel for reward.
Regarding emergent gameplay, this open world is painfully missing warring factions (and a jungle). Backup, Back Down mission was written as if rebels were part of it, but they're nowhere in this game.
Kevin Shields
Member
Yea if every part of that is true it's really lame. But there were also a lot of late reviews that had the same opinion as those boot camp reviews so you can't chalk up everyone's opinion to that. But that's def a dick move by Konamis if it's true.
Messypandas
Member
Nice. Was waiting for Malek to get out of the sick bay and my guys just dismissed him automatically the bunch of tossers. 3rd time rescuing him now.
Not every reviewer went to that event. Many outlets opted out and received copies of the game to play on their own. IGN, Gamespot, DTOID, Jimquisition, and many more did not attend the event.
Lock him next time. L2 on PS4 I think.
Environment must be playing a factor though. Reviewers must have a short amount of time they can really dedicate to look at a game before moving on. You beast the game and get your opinion out there. So I imagine a lot of people are going to miss so much of the rot that sets in during the second half.
The gameplay is great and I could probably downplay other flaws as well but to outright ignore them when making a critical evaluation on a game is just...whaaaat. You don't even need to think super-critically or nitpick to see these issues.
Super interesting.
He touches on a lot of the things that over time show deep flaws.
The characters not being interesting at all.
Venom being flat and not even charming like BB.
Really flat dialogue and pauses for "impact" but all they do is prologue the scene.
Paz....
Motherbase has nothing.
Ground Zeroes has emotional attachment. Which i totally agree. Specially on the music. And this is based on Harry Gregson-Williams not composing directly.
The twist for the sake of involving the character.
Quiet...
A lot of people have mentioned that it hurt that Kojima had no 2nd writer to help contain the story. I think this is true. The story is all over the place.
Kojima never went and explored the themes of the game properly. At no point. Nothing.
I think he touches on a lot of interesting themes that you think will be introduced. But they never expand on them. Not to mention Venom never reaches that morality change that we were promised.
Venom is more like a shell.... he is supposed to represent us. But in a lot of ways... it strips any kind of charisma or something to relate to. Its just not good. Even in the prologue, the lines from BB are super interesting, as far as a character and delivery. There is a huge difference.
He also mentioned that the locations feel really small. Its not very intricate or fun. I agree.
Sigh... in a lot of ways, i love MGSV for what it does for the game industry as far as level of quality and gameplay. A true sandbox experience in a very different setting. But it all falls apart.Shame...
TL;DR Kojima sucks.
He touches on a lot of the things that over time show deep flaws.
The characters not being interesting at all.
Venom being flat and not even charming like BB.
Really flat dialogue and pauses for "impact" but all they do is prologue the scene.
Paz....
Motherbase has nothing.
Ground Zeroes has emotional attachment. Which i totally agree. Specially on the music. And this is based on Harry Gregson-Williams not composing directly.
The twist for the sake of involving the character.
Quiet...
A lot of people have mentioned that it hurt that Kojima had no 2nd writer to help contain the story. I think this is true. The story is all over the place.
Kojima never went and explored the themes of the game properly. At no point. Nothing.
I think he touches on a lot of interesting themes that you think will be introduced. But they never expand on them. Not to mention Venom never reaches that morality change that we were promised.
Venom is more like a shell.... he is supposed to represent us. But in a lot of ways... it strips any kind of charisma or something to relate to. Its just not good. Even in the prologue, the lines from BB are super interesting, as far as a character and delivery. There is a huge difference.
He also mentioned that the locations feel really small. Its not very intricate or fun. I agree.
Sigh... in a lot of ways, i love MGSV for what it does for the game industry as far as level of quality and gameplay. A true sandbox experience in a very different setting. But it all falls apart.Shame...
TL;DR Kojima sucks.
That's true, but from watching that bunnyhop video it makes it seem like their reviews were still questionable, for example using a screenshot from a scene not in the actual game and also saying the game doesn't have any padding when half the game basically is just filler.
I thought his points about the flaws were decent but the points about the reviews in general was a pretty bad point and I don't really know how valid it is.
Empty Space
Member
While it's true that there's a certain amount of subjectivism to reviewing games, its really not okay that most of the release day/week reviews gave the game a pass for missing mission 51. I didn't keep up with the marketing for the game at all and immediately sensed the game was missing content when I finished. It's hard to believe that a lot those reviewers didn't have the same feeling. There were plenty of comments about the story not being as involved as other MGS entries, but not a whole about it missing parts. I think that's a huge failing on reviewers' part even if they didn't feel that it necessitated adjusting the score for it. I don't think there's some grand conspiracy here though, the reviews were probably done in a rush to hit a deadline and people didn't have time to really think critically about what they had played.
The bigger outlets really shouldn't be supporting practices by publishers that cause this kind of thing to happen. It seems to happen every single time a big game with a boot camp comes out. At some point you need to step back and realize that those kind of things aren't serving your reader and viewers.
I think it is vaild isn't it? Those reviewers at that Konami review event rushed through the game just to get their articles out. He spent 120 hours with the game before dissecting it.
Portugeezer
Member
Wait... how many missions are there?
I just completed mission 40 and no other missions are available except side missions. Also I noticed most (if not all) missions past 30-something are recycled, so have I completed the game before and are these just recycled missions past then? Is there more story or what? Quiet spoke to the doctor dude, but that was it.
I just completed mission 40 and no other missions are available except side missions. Also I noticed most (if not all) missions past 30-something are recycled, so have I completed the game before and are these just recycled missions past then? Is there more story or what? Quiet spoke to the doctor dude, but that was it.
50 missions
150 side ops
Just keep playing missions that you might have not done, it will unlock more. OR go to Motherbase to unlock cutscenes that might lead to more missions.
Messypandas
Member
Exactly. I think the only site that talked about the missing content was Kotaku or at least one of the only few to mention that.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Some sites having press screenshots of scenes that never appeared in the game and stating that the story is coherent is definitely questionable as hell.
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
Beautiful.
I like this one.
No matter how many people tried to prepare (myself included) the twist still managed to knock me on my ass. lol
That is all well and good. But not many reviews highlighted flaws that are highly visible in the game. How much such flaws reflect in the score is up to the reviewers, but not mentioning these issues in the text of the review makes one wonder.
For example if I ever see Jim Sterling write about filler in a review, I can throw his review of MGSV back at him.
I'm telling ya, Chico was supposed to end up as fake BB, at least at some point the process. I'm playing PW, and when you go to rescue him the first time, he tells Snake he wants to die since he ratted out his comrades. Snake points his gun at him, shoots the floor, and then tells Chico that he's a "new man" and that his life now belongs to Snake. And that he shouldn't smoke until he's older.
Man, so much hate for this game in this thread. I don't get it.
Personally I think this game is probably the best stealth game ever made. This was the biggest leap Metal Gear has made since MGS2 for me as far as gameplay goes. The gameplay and it's many, many nuisances are simply sublime. I can get why some people might not enjoy it's structure and would prefer the more linear presentation format, but I enjoyed the gameplay way too much to care. And now that I've completed the story with 58% completion, I am estatic at the fact of continuing, and realizing especially once MGO is out that I will probably be playing a Metal Gear game all the way up until the release of SF5. I just always want to spend more time in this world, and this game has given me more of that with more quality than any other.
As far as the story goes, I'm a bit dissapointed in some aspects and I really wanted to see everything come full circle, (Eli's story resolved in-game, more about the lead-up to MG1, ect), but overall it gave me a lot of really exciting moments as a Metal Gear fan, and I can't say I'm upset about that.
Kojima mind fucked me and then left before the next morning. A bit sad and lonely, and feel slightly like a whore, but I enjoyed the night.
Personally I think this game is probably the best stealth game ever made. This was the biggest leap Metal Gear has made since MGS2 for me as far as gameplay goes. The gameplay and it's many, many nuisances are simply sublime. I can get why some people might not enjoy it's structure and would prefer the more linear presentation format, but I enjoyed the gameplay way too much to care. And now that I've completed the story with 58% completion, I am estatic at the fact of continuing, and realizing especially once MGO is out that I will probably be playing a Metal Gear game all the way up until the release of SF5. I just always want to spend more time in this world, and this game has given me more of that with more quality than any other.
As far as the story goes, I'm a bit dissapointed in some aspects and I really wanted to see everything come full circle, (Eli's story resolved in-game, more about the lead-up to MG1, ect), but overall it gave me a lot of really exciting moments as a Metal Gear fan, and I can't say I'm upset about that.
Kojima mind fucked me and then left before the next morning. A bit sad and lonely, and feel slightly like a whore, but I enjoyed the night.
I don't think anyone debates the gameplay or the game itself as a stealth/action sandbox. Its magnificent.
But the lack of a complete story. Fragmented storytelling. Flat characters and very weak lines... just piles up.
This is a game that the more i played... the more sad i would get. The flaws in this game run deep, and once you find a trail of one... it will lead you to more and deeper cracks. Its kinda sad. Whomever the fault was. Whether it was Kojima for too much scope... or not enough time. The game is not good in all respects that make an MGS good.
Gameplay is not the main thing people are complaining about. In terms of pure stealth, pretty much everyone agrees this is one hell of an experience.
The complaints and rants are about pretty much the rest of the game...
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