Unknown One
Member
Kojima has a problem connecting everybody to an event. The story would be better off not attaching the Big Boss cast to MGS1, 2, and 4. This includes that stupid The Boss's will crap. Worst thing to happen to the series.
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SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
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Berserker976
Member
Strangelove [speaking to The Boss AI] "I buried code - just to be sure. Inside of you, there's an 'egg.' And when someone finds it... When they crack it... There'll be nothing left to stop you. The world you envisioned will become a reality."
So... is this a reference to something, or is it really just more cut content?
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
It's interesting that "Friday I'm in Love" is one of the only songs (if not the only song) from the tapes that wasn't recorded in the 80s.
What this can only mean is that the single was actually recorded in 1983, and a few demo tapes made their way out of the studio, but the track was withheld by a producer with connections to Cipher, who was interested in using its unique melody to deliver subconscious messages.
The track finally hit the airwaves in 1992, along with several other pieces of media that were the "first wave" of The Patriot's S3 program.
One of these prototype tapes makes its way to the hands of code talker's captives...the soviets. It only makes sense since the USSR is the other nation that holds half of the philosophers legacy, it also explains why you are ambushed by the XOF sniper unit on your way to the mansion, they're not keeping you from code talker no they're protecting the tape.
Yesss
Yesssssssss
This all makes sense.
Perfect. Sense.
What this can only mean is that the single was actually recorded in 1983, and a few demo tapes made their way out of the studio, but the track was withheld by a producer with connections to Cipher, who was interested in using its unique melody to deliver subconscious messages.
The track finally hit the airwaves in 1992, along with several other pieces of media that were the "first wave" of The Patriot's S3 program.
One of these prototype tapes makes its way to the hands of code talker's captives...the soviets. It only makes sense since the USSR is the other nation that holds half of the philosophers legacy, it also explains why you are ambushed by the XOF sniper unit on your way to the mansion, they're not keeping you from code talker no they're protecting the tape.
Yesss
Yesssssssss
This all makes sense.
Perfect. Sense.
Unknown One
Member
The Solid Snake and Hal relationship or Sunny. I see it as Hal finding somebody to bring out his potential to change the world.
The more days go on, the more MGSV and the third chapter feel like the Journey of the Light debacle.
Unknown One
Member
Big Boss is a solid snake clone. Mgs3 he copied Solid snakes tendencies and habits.
Berserker976
Member
That's a nice sentiment, but I'm still not sure what it has to do with buried code in the mammal pod that, when activated, will make the Boss' will unstoppable.
Unknown One
Member
Other then that I don't know. MGSV story is too much of a mess.
SnakeLinkSonic
Member
The legend is lie. Or at the very least a gross exaggeration. That's one of the game's points. Even GotP started in on that one.
A haven for soldiers was a concept he aped from Gene along with the money.
Miller was the actual brains and pusher behind MSF and later Diamond Dogs.
He ended up using both of those things to help brand Outer Heaven later on.
Venom has apparently been doing a significant chunk of his relevant shit up until '95.
Hell, he even had XOF cleaning up after and aiding him doing Virtuous and Snake Eater
What exactly has he done? Master at abduction by balloons? Eating shrooms? That's about it. Unless you count the comas as well, then he's good at taking naps I guess too. Good donor for the real Snakes though, can't deny that.
Berserker976
Member
KOMANI
KOMANI
You're right. I found MGS 3 Big Boss charming in a goofball way. He was the underdog that completed the impossible... But now, I see him as inspected Clouseau from the pink panther.
Which brings up another thing... Why bother cloning him if he's not the badass he's supposed to be?
People say Big Boss is so legendary but in peace walker you straight up get soldiers that are better than him.
It's really fun if you play MGSV while picking the name and recreating the face of your BEST msf soldier from peace walker. Now that I know, this is the true canon. Alligator was big boss all along.
It's really fun if you play MGSV while picking the name and recreating the face of your BEST msf soldier from peace walker. Now that I know, this is the true canon. Alligator was big boss all along.
PedroPanache
Member
I've come to terms that this isn't the game I expected. It's a damn fine game when you're invading a base, taking soldiers out and sneaking around like you're the Boss (which you're not), but the story threads hang all over the place. Seemingly not through choice, but more the fact that Kojima failed to focus a narrative and see it through to the end. It's all very scatter shot and cumbersome, so when the twist finally reveals itself, it just hangs there like an uncomfortable jeep ride with a rambling maniac. There's no emotional core to the twist. That's why it doesn't work.
I feel the MGS2 bait and switch worked, because we got to see Snake from a different perspective as he still had a major role to play in the game. We just didn't have control over that. MGSV, on the other hand, elects to hide its most iconic character in the shadows doing a bigger, better version of what the player, as VS, is doing. It doesn't invalidate the experience, but, boy oh boy, I sure would love to peek behind the curtain and see a little of Big Boss' story.
I think, for some time now, the fans have cared far more for the integrity of the lore than Kojima. He's sees it more as a dirty canvas he has to half-scrub before overwriting it with his next work. I've always seen the games for what they are, high concept, high camp 90s cartoons with delusions of grandeur. Full of brilliant spectacle, but utter nonsense when you try to dissect character motivation and series mythology. In that respect, they're more a stream of consciousness, unafraid to rewrite character and story in favour of an interesting theme or idea.
The Silver
Member
Zero wanted the clones as insurance so they can have another BB to continue his legend if the real BB ever died or went rogue, the goal wasnt necessarily to have super soldiers. They ended up abandoning the project anyway, later on we have Venom who is essentially what Zero wanted.
The genome army was the thing with the goal of creating super soldiers but they ended up being failures too.
KOMANI
KOMANI
no, I get that, but how do you expect clones of an overrated "legend" to carry on his legacy if you'd STILL need to interfere to keep the ruse up?
Don't confuse bad writing with a "the legend is a lie" kind of plot twist. I never got the impression that the latter was one of the plot's points, at all. It's something that is touched upon in MGS4, where Big Boss is still allowed to retain this so-called "legendary" status (while establishing that much of said legend is fabricated), but in MGSV it's hardly a main point. If anything, I'd say that the game goes out of its way to surround part of (the true) Big Boss' timeline in mystery in order to try to keep him as a "legend".
The fact that Big Boss, in the games where we see him, hardly ever does anything is plain bad writing. Kojima has proven time and again that he is incapable of writing characters with agency. We shouldn't confuse this with the plot stating that said characters lack agency, though. We saw this already in MGS4, were the experienced Solid Snake from MGS2 (where he wasn't playable) turned into a passive, almost silent protagonist who did nothing but what he was told.
Kojima has always written MGS stories from the perspective of the rookie (MG1, MGS2, MGS3; MGS1 kinda fits into this mold too because Solid Snake, though experienced at this point, is used and manipulated to hell and back in that game). I imagine that this has a lot to do with having to teach the player, in each game, how to play and how to familiarize him with the new mechanics; it's easier to do when the character is a rookie, since you can just have the support cast telling him how to do things. Anyway, this used to work well, until he had to write games where the main character was supposed to be experienced and have agency. MGS2 remains the only time when a previously playable character has agency and shows his experience, and this is so only because said character was not written as the main one. Not surprisingly either, the one time when Big Boss comes out and talks the most, effectively stealing the spot-light from everybody else (when in all other games he had anything but the spot-light) was when he appeared at the end of MGS4.
As for Big Boss copying all of what he does from others, that's shitty writing as well. The Patriots as an organization is little more than a copy of The Philosophers, for instance. I very much doubt Kojima's intention was to bring down the mystification of the Patriots with that plot-twist, he was just forced to answer where The Patriots came from and the easier answer was that there was something exactly like it before, an organization pretty much identical whose infrastructure and capital The Patriots just happened to steal. If Kojima had been given the opportunity to write a prequel starring The Boss, I'm positive he would have written a storyline about how she had a mentor who was pretty much like her and who taught her everything that she knew. Because that's the kind of bad writing that Kojima has been doing for ages now.
Kojima's writing just revolves a lot around this sort of lazy kind of storytelling, it doesn't really mean anything. If MGSV's purpose was indeed to bring down the legend of Big Boss, it did a horrible job at that.
PedroPanache
Member
Well said. That pretty much mirrors my thoughts on some of the series biggest failings. It's extraordinary the lengths he's gone to to strip away any kind of agency from the player character. MGS4 felt like a parody, when it was revealed just how much The Patriots controlled Snake's actions. Drebin, that rat patrol team etc. it was almost comical. At this point, I just enjoy the series as pulpy nonsense. It's filled with great moments, but the more Kojima tries to tie them together, the more the story resembles an Escher painting.
Hellwarden
Member
Going around saving kids and animals, killing only when necessary, stopping Skull Face's dumb plan. Yeah, taking the soviet soldiers into his army by force may be pretty bad, but considering what the Soviet army was doing, it's practically doing them a favor.
Perhaps the worst thing I could say about Venom's character is that he's too tolerant of Miller's torture boner.
greycolumbus
The success of others absolutely infuriates me.
So has anyone else noticed bad subtitles for the tapes? Like weird/lack of spacing and things the characters actually saying not being properly subtitled? I think I've noticed this mostly in the Code Talker tapes for whatever reason. It's a very small gripe but it had happened more than once for me to wonder what the deal was.
The thing that prevents me from being more critical of the series' narrative and the way the story went in TPP is that Kojima is just making it all up as he goes along.
This isn't a series where he's sat down and planned it all out from the beginning. He's spent his whole career writing and making sequels and prequels for games that he never intended to make. I know that we all know this and many would argue that he could've made better decisions along the way, but I can cut him some slack for it.
Every game has a narrative theme. Every game is chock full of information and background stuff that is rooted in real life science, politics, society and culture. Look at how much detail is provided in the TPP tapes. You can say that a lot of Kojima's narrative twists and explanations might not work but you can't deny the sheer effort, attention to detail and research that he puts into his games.
And then there's the fact that every main MGS game is a different game. MGS games are never just more of the same. There's always something new to revolutionise the formula. Whether it's first-person view, hold-ups and the Raiden twist in MGS2, the 1960s jungle setting and camo index system in MGS3, the act structure and 'hiding in a battlefield' setting of MGS4 and then the individual mission structure and base building format of PW and TPP. Every game is different and unique in its own way and yet is still unmistakably Metal Gear.
You could argue that the open world setting in TPP isn't the best we've ever seen and that it doesn't really suit the Metal Gear narrative focus that we've all grown to love over the decades, but I think that as a game, TPP is still a triumph. I'm not blown away by the story in this game and, yeah, I was expecting more than what we got and I'm disappointed by that, but I can still say that this is an excellent game that shows what a talented bunch of people Kojima Productions were.
I can't help but think what these people could've done if they had the chance to create something new. A brand new concept with a narrative that they could plan free from any sequel baggage from twenty year-old games and with fresh ideas and new themes to explore.
I really hope we get to see Kojima sink his teeth into something new now.
This isn't a series where he's sat down and planned it all out from the beginning. He's spent his whole career writing and making sequels and prequels for games that he never intended to make. I know that we all know this and many would argue that he could've made better decisions along the way, but I can cut him some slack for it.
Every game has a narrative theme. Every game is chock full of information and background stuff that is rooted in real life science, politics, society and culture. Look at how much detail is provided in the TPP tapes. You can say that a lot of Kojima's narrative twists and explanations might not work but you can't deny the sheer effort, attention to detail and research that he puts into his games.
And then there's the fact that every main MGS game is a different game. MGS games are never just more of the same. There's always something new to revolutionise the formula. Whether it's first-person view, hold-ups and the Raiden twist in MGS2, the 1960s jungle setting and camo index system in MGS3, the act structure and 'hiding in a battlefield' setting of MGS4 and then the individual mission structure and base building format of PW and TPP. Every game is different and unique in its own way and yet is still unmistakably Metal Gear.
You could argue that the open world setting in TPP isn't the best we've ever seen and that it doesn't really suit the Metal Gear narrative focus that we've all grown to love over the decades, but I think that as a game, TPP is still a triumph. I'm not blown away by the story in this game and, yeah, I was expecting more than what we got and I'm disappointed by that, but I can still say that this is an excellent game that shows what a talented bunch of people Kojima Productions were.
I can't help but think what these people could've done if they had the chance to create something new. A brand new concept with a narrative that they could plan free from any sequel baggage from twenty year-old games and with fresh ideas and new themes to explore.
I really hope we get to see Kojima sink his teeth into something new now.
Stevey
Member
A major plot point I missed was how do the parasites spread?
Like the English ones, how do they infect other people? I don't get it.
Say if I was infected and I spoke English to someone, how do the parasites physically reach the other person? Through the air?I don't get it.
And the mission where you kill the infected on motherbase, they speak to you, so why doesn't venom get infected?
Like the English ones, how do they infect other people? I don't get it.
Say if I was infected and I spoke English to someone, how do the parasites physically reach the other person? Through the air?I don't get it.
And the mission where you kill the infected on motherbase, they speak to you, so why doesn't venom get infected?
No, when you speak a lot of english the parasites activate and you will be contagious on toucb. Language is just the trigger.
Is that the case?
I thought one of the tapes also talked about it transmitting via saliva, and through the air when talking, things like that.
So it's mainly airborne. That's why Medic Boss wears the mask.
Wasn't he wearing it just in case because nobody knew what happened and how in what ways it could've mutated? But yeah, your probably right. Wouldn't be scary enough if it were only by touch. Skullface should stop playing Plague Inc.
Hyperbole much? We see his legendary deeds first hand in MGS3 where he infliterarte the god damn fortress and single handedly takes down all of Cobra Unit including The Boss, Volgin and Shagohod despite being injured multiple times.
smh
^ damn straight, Juicy B! Koji has spent 30 years writing himself into a corner, but making great games out of it. If you want more games like MGS2, 3, or 4, go play them. He made something totally fresh with MGSV and just joined a couole of plot-dots.
100% agreed, especially the last paragraph. Being able to just choose a base and orchestrate my own Metal Gear game makes it GOAT-tier for me.
Yeah. Baby.
Time to start my PC playthrough.
Nope. The noise-up in this thread + elsewhere was so extremely about 'nothing happening' in the end that I expected nothing to happen. Also there were almost 80 hours between the Prologue and the Truth, with as many red herrings as hints that we're playing a double.
It blindsided me and i fucking loved it.
This was a bit annoying - but I thought it worked because you realise in 5 mins that Ishmael is the true Boss and then you get to watch him being a badass for an hour before the final scene. All Ishmael's writing suddenly made sense.
100% agreed, especially the last paragraph. Being able to just choose a base and orchestrate my own Metal Gear game makes it GOAT-tier for me.
Yeah. Baby.
Time to start my PC playthrough.
Nope. The noise-up in this thread + elsewhere was so extremely about 'nothing happening' in the end that I expected nothing to happen. Also there were almost 80 hours between the Prologue and the Truth, with as many red herrings as hints that we're playing a double.
It blindsided me and i fucking loved it.
This was a bit annoying - but I thought it worked because you realise in 5 mins that Ishmael is the true Boss and then you get to watch him being a badass for an hour before the final scene. All Ishmael's writing suddenly made sense.
eso76
Member
Yeah, i don't think it was.
You are right. Once a Kojima character achieves legendary status, the guy has a hard time letting you take control of him and possibly fucking up. He's so jealous of his Snakes.
Plus it denies him the use of his beloved "main character has been played like a damn fiddle" card.
I didn't mind the story. I didn't mind the twist, although i could see that coming from the whole Joakim Mogren stunt, and it was confirmed as soon as Ishmael guided this 'rookie' out of the hospital and took care of the hard part.
I just don't think it really made a lot of sense, but that was expected.
I just wanted to know whether it was BB in MG1 and 2 or his doppelganger; at one point I thought it would be revealed that we only meet the real BB again at the end of MGS4, and he actually never really became a demon.
But of course MGS4 estabilished that SS did burn him in MG2.
Kojima could have tried refraining from overwriting his stuff and sticking more plot twists for the sake of plot twists everywhere.
And he could have told the story everyone expected instead of a new one that tries to tie in with the canon.
I still enjoyed the game and like i said elsewhere it's some kind of paradox how a lot of people loved the game for so many hours, right until the final act. I mean, you shouldn't let that retroactively ruin the fun you had with the game.
Of course, part of the fun is tied to the promise of being rewarded with a fulfilling explanation, which never came. But watching Lost was still worth it for the amazing season 01, right ? right ?
Having you replay old missions in chapter 2 probably serves as introducing the final episode in a way (I have played none of the repeated missions, but those who did probably just thought "oh, it's another repeated mission" when 46 came up ?).
I was expecting you'd get to play that from Ishmael's perspective, though.
Exactly.
Big Boss is a badass if only for what he pulled off in MGS3. I do think the idea that he wasn't really ever all that could have been tackled, but The Phantom Pain doesn't do a good job of doing that.
Big Boss had a lot of help, even during Operation Snake Eater. The Boss, EVA, his support team. He never did it alone, and would have died a hundred times without the help he had. You don't need XOF to explain why Big Boss' legend is a myth, mostly because it doesn't really work. Yeah, Skull Face might have aided Big Boss, but so did at least half a dozen other people.
If Kojima wanted to present the legend as a lie The Phantom Pain should have been built around that concept. Just a man, a really good soldier, not being able to live up the expectations surrounding him. Show that he isn't a legendary soldier, but a wounded, betrayed man who makes some bad decisions that lead to his downfall.
Speaking of language. I listened today to George Carlin while squeazing former food. Especially the part where he talks about rape jokes made mestop pooping for a moment and listen. He talks in that segment about language as a whole which was interesting in itself, but especially so in combination with MGSV. Mr. Carlin talked about how there are words and things that can't be talked about, that are forbidden to say and on the other hand words and things that you are supposed to say. That's how government and church take a bit of control in the life of people, through language. Sad that the game never went into that direction or even deeper in the enforcement of a certain language.
We needed George Carlin tapes, way more interesting, Code Talker never kept me from pooping and farting.
We needed George Carlin tapes, way more interesting, Code Talker never kept me from pooping and farting.
Diamond Dogs should have hired Carlin as their resident comedian. Would have made returning to Mother Base interesting.
eso76
Member
Uh, isn't this what MGSV is trying to say ?
Imagine him instead of Miller. Also Louis CK instead of Ocelot.
They mentioned it... and then never talked about it again. It was fun hunting for interpreters, but when you had them, language degregated to a tool for the parasite danger and that was it.
In a way, but not the way Carlin talked about. The game was concentrated on people being forced to learn foreign languages, but didn't went into language control within a language. E.g. how the US TV censors "Fuckshit" or how one may says "Thank god" when relieved, regardless if god helped or not.
giancarlo123x
Banned
I made my medic look just like grey fox. I wish you could make the bandana red.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
I still wonder why they had V doing the Grey Fox pose in that one piece of promo art
Kojima trolling again?
Edit: This one
johnny_cicala
Member
Right.
RurouniZel
Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
Vastly improved. ;P
PreFire
Member
Ok wtf.
Beat the game earlier, went out. Came home, knocked out. Just got up and booted it again... Picked a side op and... Um, where the FUCK is Quiet?
I know she spoke English and shit, but come on.. Why can't I at least use her? What's the point of unlocking her skins?
I just hope I can at least use her when replaying missions... This is crazy
Beat the game earlier, went out. Came home, knocked out. Just got up and booted it again... Picked a side op and... Um, where the FUCK is Quiet?
I know she spoke English and shit, but come on.. Why can't I at least use her? What's the point of unlocking her skins?I just hope I can at least use her when replaying missions... This is crazy
giancarlo123x
Banned
Ok wtf.
Beat the game earlier, went out. Came home, knocked out. Just got up and booted it again... Picked a side op and... Um, where the FUCK is Quiet?
I just hope I can at least use her when replaying missions... This is crazy
Welcome to the true phantom pain.
Amazing how this feels less awkward then the original
PreFire
Member
Welcome to the true phantom pain.
no... No,,,.. This is a dream, right?
Going back to sleep and hoping it all goes away when I wake up
So this is why people were wondering why I was happy with the outcome earlier. Now, I know
PreFire
Member
Mothefucker.. I just read if I had put the butterfly emblem before mission 41 she wouldn't have left
This... Is stupid.
I don't think I'll get over this. Great game but what the fucking fuck? This is huge to me.
I really hope I'm being trolled and there's some way to get her back.
This... Is stupid.
I don't think I'll get over this. Great game but what the fucking fuck? This is huge to me.
I really hope I'm being trolled and there's some way to get her back.
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