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[Moon_frogger]

Does every single inch of the metal gear history need to be covered in excruciating detail in game? If we get a game about big boss forming foxhound then people will just whine that it doesn't end with solid snake being recruited and trained. they'll be moaning about how we were 'betrayed' and how the 'real missing link' wasn't explored. Leave some stuff to the imagination people.

 

[Griss]

Does every single inch of the metal gear history need to be covered in excruciating detail in game? If we get a game about big boss forming foxhound then people will just whine that it doesn't end with solid snake being recruited and trained. they'll be moaning about how we were 'betrayed' and how the 'real missing link' wasn't explored. Leave some stuff to the imagination people.

The entire problem is that we got the dull and excrutiating details of how Big Boss's doppleganger extracted biotech engineers, extracted walkers, managed his staff and shut down an oilfield rather than the actually interesting development of how he (either of them) came to be evil, the sum total of which is hinted at by a smirk in the final seconds of the game.

We wanted the important stuff. We got the incidental detail. That's the whole problem.

 

[Matt]

Does every single inch of the metal gear history need to be covered in excruciating detail in game? If we get a game about big boss forming foxhound then people will just whine that it doesn't end with solid snake being recruited and trained. they'll be moaning about how we were 'betrayed' and how the 'real missing link' wasn't explored. Leave some stuff to the imagination people.

I think if the story in MGSV was good, people wouldn't mind nearly as much if it didn't cover FOXHOUND.

 

[Crypt]

How is it that none of the MGS staples made it into MGSV? No capturing and escape. No vehicle chase with shootout. No boss variety, just Quiet, Sahelanthropus twice, and Skulls three times. Using L1 to call in real-time codec conversations during boss battles would be perfect!

Volgin
ST-84 (twice)
Eli (twice)
Skulls (twice or 3 if you count the first interaction)
Sniper Skulls (I consider this different enough to be a separate type of boss battle)
Quiet


I think there were plenty of boss battles, but I think they missed an opportunity to make some really good ones given the huge map they could do it in. 5's bosses are pretty forgettable, and a lot of the challenge is taken out of them when you can just run away from a lot of them. Except for one, you can do every skulls battle by sneaking around them. The first ST-84 battle is literally just running away from it. I think you can run through quiet's level too. Volgin too.

The open world would have been a great for a vehicle chase battle. Especially the winding roads up around the mountain relay base. There probably should have been some sort of fighter jet battle. That would have been fun. I would have liked some sort of battle that spanned an insanely massive area. This is what I expected Quiet's battle to be - some huge cat and mouse game in the middle of the desert - but it actually just ended up being MGS1's Sniper Wolf battle in some ruins instead of snowy trees. After the sniper battles in 3 and 4, 5's sniper was a real letdown.

There should have been at least one battle that utilized indoor facilities, or at least one proper indoor military base that we got to sneak into. They should have had the cave Sally was in be the indoor facility.

 

[Freedom = $1.05]

Because later they were like "Woops looks like it wasn't Cipher after all, our bad"

What I still don't get is why Skull Face blew up MSF when he was with Cipher... did he do that on his own or was it part of his orders? Because if Cipher ordered it then this makes even less sense

well Ground Zeroes was him trying to get Paz to tell him where Zero was and supposedly starting his parasite experiments with people in the camp. That would explain what they did to chico and also why all of the former members you have to recover during the Paz Side Ops are all bugging out like the skulls.

The blowing up of MSF allowed him to capture Huey and then blow the shit out of those who would look for him, allowing huey to work for XOF without having to worry about retaliation

at least that's my reasoning for it

 

[Afrodium]

I really think the twist could have been way cooler if it was handled differently. The idea that Venom is a capable Big Boss solely because the player believes he's Big Boss would have been great. Venom being a soldier so devoted to Big Boss he's willing to give up his life in order to continue the legend, with the legacy alone giving him strength, would have been great at well. Instead they just hypnotized some mook and gave him BB serum or something in order to create some twist that served no purpose other than being a twist.

And was making me replay a one hour long on rails segment with one small change really the best delivery method for this information?

 

[SMZC]

Because it has a better story.

Both 4's and V's are crap, but at least V doesn't tell its crap story with endless cut-scenes that get in the way of the gameplay.

I lost faith in the series' plot due to MGS4, and Peace Walker just established that Kojima wouldn't write a decent MGS plot ever again. In that regard, MGSV focusing on the gameplay (both quantity and quality-wise) is the best thing that has happened to the series.

So people are in denial phase and pretend this game isn't canon?

It's funny because one of several things that the V stands for is "Victory". As Kojima hismelf explained, MGSV was/is supposed to represent the victory of Japanese developers over Western ones after so many years of Western dominance in the industry. So, these people are right in that the V was meant by Kojima to separate MGSV from its predecessors; not in the sense of it being an inferior product, though, like they like to believe, but in the sense of being the MGS title to surpass all previous ones, lol.

 

[Death Metalist]

He's not a random ass medic anymore, he's Big Boss. The legacy of Big Boss in MG1, MG2, MGS, MGS2, and MGS4 is just as much Venom as the real Big Boss. I'm not saying the twist is good or well written, or even that logical, but the people who think this game is irrelevant because you're not the same Big Boss from Snake Eater are missing the point. Venom is Big Boss too.

Exactly. The legend of Big Boss outgrew him as a human being to the point they don't even call out his name anymore. Big Boss used his own legend/myth in a way that he felt was beneficial for him in the long run after everybody was after his ass. He's an asshole and a sly mofo for sure but there was a point to what he did and whether someone likes it or not is something else.

Venom was used to fill in a specific role in a specific time, would it work for another person later on? Who knows, by that time different people had different intentions after the Snakes intervened and I'm sure Ocelot doesn't have the time to hypnotize/train/whatever every single person lol so it makes sense that he would do that after BB fell into a coma and they used BB's most loyal and awesome soldier. That and well the patriots were getting more and more insane as the series progressed.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Does every single inch of the metal gear history need to be covered in excruciating detail in game? If we get a game about big boss forming foxhound then people will just whine that it doesn't end with solid snake being recruited and trained. they'll be moaning about how we were 'betrayed' and how the 'real missing link' wasn't explored. Leave some stuff to the imagination people.

I don't think every inch needs to be explored, but if you advertise a game as the missing link, it probably shouldn't ask more questions than it answered.

MGSV complicates the story after Peace Walker pretty explicitly laid out an obvious path from how Big Boss gets from the end of that game to the beginning of Metal Gear. Ground Zeroes and Phantom Pain then throw in "Actually those years he was accounted for, he was off doing something else. Don't know what. Bye!"

The story of MGSV is like talking to an Earthbound NPC.

 

[meep!]

Yay stole and disamred my first Nuke. One step closer to Peace! (And chapter 3, beLIEve )

 

[RSB]

It isn't numbered. It's V. This game's story & twist are so godawful it's impossible for it to be canon.

By that logic MGS4 should be the least canonical of all MGS games.

Personally I'll keep considering MGS2 as the real end of the saga (with MGS3 being a nice bonus prequel) and MGS4 and everything that came after as terrible fanfiction. The gameplay is still great, though, and that's why I'm still a fan even after the embarrassment that was MGS4.

Both 4's and V's are crap, but at least V doesn't tell its crap story with endless cut-scenes that get in the way of the gameplay.

I lost faith in the series' plot due to MGS4, and Peace Walker just established that Kojima wouldn't write a decent MGS plot ever again. In that regard, MGSV focusing on the gameplay (both quantity and quality-wise) is the best thing that has happened to the series

Yep, that's another thing I disliked about MGS4. The gameplay itself was great, but there was so little of it (and most of it contained in the first two acts) that you barely had time to enjoy it. And as you said, the gameplay/cutscenes ratio was completely fucked. Kojima didn't make the same mistake with MGSV, thankfully.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

venom snake is just as much big boss! that's why the real big boss did all the actual important stuff for most of those years and venom snake's only accomplishment was a mostly irrelevant side quest against skull face and then dying, while characters in the know refer to him as a phantom and a ruse.

I mean, the real big boss, a charismatic leader who will go on to manipulate and betray his own man, reassures venom snake, the man whose identity and mind was erased and left to take the heat, that he's the real big boss too. and if you can't trust a manipulative hypocritical and cowardly war criminal who was complicit in setting you up as a giant target in his place, who can you trust

 

[Moon_frogger]

The entire problem is that we got the dull and excrutiating details of how Big Boss's doppleganger extracted biotech engineers, extracted walkers, managed his staff and shut down an oilfield rather than the actually interesting development of how he (either of them) came to be evil, the sum total of which is hinted at by a smirk in the final seconds of the game.

We wanted the important stuff. We got the incidental detail. That's the whole problem.

I feel like we didn't play the same game. The story of diamond dogs might be only tangentially related to the rest of the series but it was a good story and there was far more to it then extracting stuff with balloons. not to mention there was a ton of insight into zero and his motivations before he went comatose, an amazing glimpse at a pre teen liquid snake, an awesome character arc for huey and some great character development for Miller. I also loved what they were going for with the whole language and identity themes. It was well developed and will be more appreciated by fans in the years to come. I agree it probably isn't the best metal gear story and it has some serious flaws like ocelot being utterly pointless but I still loved it for the gaiden story it was. some of the most emotional highs and exciting drama in the series for me.

 

[Archaix]

venom snake is just as much big boss! that's why the real big boss did all the actual important stuff for most of those years and venom snake's only accomplishment was a mostly irrelevant side quest against skull face and then dying, while characters in the know refer to him as a phantom and a ruse.

I mean, the real big boss, a charismatic leader who will go on to manipulate and betray his own man, reassures venom snake, the man whose identity and mind was erased and left to take the heat, that he's the real big boss too. and if you can't trust a manipulative hypocritical and cowardly war criminal who was complicit in setting you up as a giant target in his place, who can you trust

Sure, but when are we going to see Big Boss become a bad guy?

 

[Messypandas]

I wish the mission credits were a little better. I love replaying the Extreme Quiet fight, but only get a measly 16k for completing it now.

 

[NeoCross]

Sure, but when are we going to see Big Boss become a bad guy?

Coming soon, to a Pachinko near you!

 

[Freedom = $1.05]

The real BB missed out on having Quiet try to dry hump him all of the time in the ACC

So if you think about it he really is a victim of circumstance here

 

[bodyofanamerican]

Man, anyone else catch the latest episode of Metal Gear Scanlon? After Venom says to Kaz "tell me, tell me like you used to", that was it for Drew. He's fully on board with Venom being an impostor.

So funny that he called it so early/quickly.

 

[Messypandas]

"Tell me about the rabbits Kaz, tell me like you used to"

 

[Arttemis]

Yay stole and disamred my first Nuke. One step closer to Peace! (And chapter 3, beLIEve )

Can I ask how? My list of rivals with Nukes is always completely empty.

 

[mentallyinept]

I have way less problems with the story than most people, other than the fact that it is unfinished and clearly meant to have a third chapter (or greatly expanded second chapter) to resolve the Eli/Sally stuff. That's stuff that I put squarely in the lap of Konami. They stopped the money train and forced Kojima's hand.

The thing that I have the biggest problem with is that all missions don't have the Extreme/Subsistence/Total Stealth options once you beat them once.

 

[Evil Beaver]

So....Big Medic Boss/Venom Snake is probably the one who kicks the bucket at the end of Operation Intrude N131.

...and then Real Big Boss is like, "Nah Son, I'm still alive!"

#2Fiddled2Furious

 

[akidnamededdy]

It's funny because one of several things that the V stands for is "Victory". As Kojima hismelf explained, MGSV was/is supposed to represent the victory of Japanese developers over Western ones after so many years of Western dominance in the industry. So, these people are right in that the V was meant by Kojima to separate MGSV from its predecessors; not in the sense of it being an inferior product, though, like they like to believe, but in the sense of being the MGS title to surpass all previous ones, lol.

The victory of Japanese developers over western developers?

By aping the western obsession with open worlds gameplay, bankrolling a whole new engine, using it to create one of the most sparse open worlds I've personally ever seen, and spending so much time and money doing it that the publisher hacked everything apart just to get it released before the inevitable heat death of the universe?

I don't understand.

 

[Timeaisis]

Well, I just finished listening to the truth tapes. Honestly, those contained probably the best dialogue in the entire game lol.

Interesting stuff. I wish we got more (real) BB + Ocelot convos, though.

 

[NoctisVsStar]

Sure, but when are we going to see Big Boss become a bad guy?

No one in the MGS universe is a bad guy anyway when you think about it.

Outside of terrorist fatman.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Sure, but when are we going to see Big Boss become a bad guy?

So part of my problem with Big Boss turning bad in this way, if that's how it's supposed to be interpreted, is something I was wary about since the first Phantom Pain trailer.

Kojima had no idea how to naturally fill the 30 years between Snake Eater and MG1.

Big Boss spends a whole decade after Snake Eater apparently just sitting in proto-Cipher meetings, doing missions of little importance to the canon, then leaving, meeting Kaz, and starting MSF. During this whole time, it takes him seeing an AI replica of The Boss willingly die to save the world, again, before he suddenly realizes ten years after the fact that wait, she maybe didn't like war anymore. He's now prepared to be Big Boss and do whatever it takes even if he has to face the whole world.

A short time later, he takes a nine year nap. When he wakes up, he's presented with a scheme concocted by his archnemesis to let some other guy be his meat shield and save Kaz, and his reaction is "well okay I guess." before riding off and I guess he's bad now. We don't really know what exactly he did in the remaining eleven-to-fifteen years except it was important.

 

[semiconscious]

I don't think every inch needs to be explored, but if you advertise a game as the missing link, it probably shouldn't ask more questions than it answered.

MGSV complicates the story after Peace Walker pretty explicitly laid out an obvious path from how Big Boss gets from the end of that game to the beginning of Metal Gear. Ground Zeroes and Phantom Pain then throw in "Actually those years he was accounted for, he was off doing something else. Don't know what. Bye!"

The story of MGSV is like talking to an Earthbound NPC.

nailed. the 'story' in this game is basically 95% frosting, 5% cake. it adds nothing, & simply pours on a mountain of bullshit. this's what a story by a 'bereft of anything more to say re: the metal gear saga' kojima looks like - some cool, loosely-related vignettes, buried beneath a whole lotta vapid, repetitive melodrama ...

edit:

Kojima had no idea how to naturally fill the 30 years between Snake Eater and MG1...

beaten ...

 

[Timeaisis]

No one in the MGS universe is a bad guy anyway when you think about it.

Outside of terrorist fatman.

Volgin is a bad guy full stop.

Spoiler

That's why he's the best villain.

 

[NoctisVsStar]

Volgin is a bad guy full stop.

Spoiler

That's why he's the best villain.

Forgot about Volgin you're correct. So only two people in the entire series are legit evil.

 

[Lostconfused]

Big Boss spends a whole decade after Snake Eater apparently just sitting in proto-Cipher meetings, doing missions of little importance to the canon, then leaving, meeting Kaz, and starting MSF. During this whole time, it takes him seeing an AI replica of The Boss willingly die to save the world, again, before he suddenly realizes ten years after the fact that wait, she maybe didn't like war anymore.

So wait, that's really the take away from the first ending of Peace Walker? I mean her whole speech about how petty conflicts and borders are and that people fight over trivial shit leading to misery and people killing other people who they have no business of killing the first place. After all of that, he was still thinking "yay war?". I dunno Big Boss is pretty thick, and his whole character conflicts with a rather strong anti war message in the games in the first place.

 

[NeoCross]

Vamp is a bad guy ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Freedom = $1.05]

So part of my problem with Big Boss turning bad in this way, if that's how it's supposed to be interpreted, is something I was wary about since the first Phantom Pain trailer.

Kojima had no idea how to naturally fill the 30 years between Snake Eater and MG1.

Big Boss spends a whole decade after Snake Eater apparently just sitting in proto-Cipher meetings, doing missions of little importance to the canon, then leaving, meeting Kaz, and starting MSF. During this whole time, it takes him seeing an AI replica of The Boss willingly die to save the world, again, before he suddenly realizes ten years after the fact that wait, she maybe didn't like war anymore. He's now prepared to be Big Boss and do whatever it takes even if he has to face the whole world.

A short time later, he takes a nine year nap. When he wakes up, he's presented with a scheme concocted by his archnemesis to let some other guy be his meat shield and save Kaz, and his reaction is "well okay I guess." before riding off and I guess he's bad now.

Doesn't he try to kickstart outer heaven like a zillion times before the MSX games, too?

Portable Ops is BB basically stealing the idea of Outer Heaven from some idiot who i dont even remember the name of and trying to start it. He also hangs out with hippie Campbell and meets Gray Fox who is already a ninja for Kojima reasons but then has his mind reset or some shit and becomes a normal soldier who will become a ninja again in a couple of decades or so because why not.

Then that doesn't pan out and he's all like hey Kaz you seem like a cool guy would you be down to try to do this Outer Heaven thing again and Kaz is hyped because senpai noticed him and they try to do it and then that version gets destroyed because they upset a man who gets off on poisoning elders with forgeries.

Then he's like thanks for waking me up from this coma ocelot, please have my well produced doppelganger to do outer heaven with Kaz because that guy will do just about anything you ask him to if you mention "outer heaven" within earshot of him and I'll go over here and make a better outer heaven because this sliver of african land is so poorly defended and organized that i can just march in there and establish a military nation made entirely of earth's greatest mercenaries without the world noticing for a decade or something.

And then Kaz of course gets upset because senpai didnt notice him.

I think that's the whole BB story line covered up to the end of TPP.

 

[Griss]

I feel like we didn't play the same game. The story of diamond dogs might be only tangentially related to the rest of the series but it was a good story and there was far more to it then extracting stuff with balloons. not to mention there was a ton of insight into zero and his motivations before he went comatose, an amazing glimpse at a pre teen liquid snake, an awesome character arc for huey and some great character development for Miller. I also loved what they were going for with the whole language and identity themes. It was well developed and will be more appreciated by fans in the years to come. I agree it probably isn't the best metal gear story and it has some serious flaws like ocelot being utterly pointless but I still loved it for the gaiden story it was. some of the most emotional highs and exciting drama in the series for me.

How was the story of Diamond Dogs a good one? It's them building up to face off against Cipher and Skull Face. But oh wait, Cipher had nothing to do with it and Skull Face is properly introduced as a fully realised antagonist and then dispensed with 20 minutes later. And he's nonsensical and rubbish. Then the story continues, so we can deal with Eli, Mantis and Sahelanthropus, only no wait, it's actually done.

The 'insight into Zero's motivations' was left for tapes you're given after the final credits roll. That's not the main narrative, not to me. I'm not talking about lore, or worldbuilding, I'm talking about the actual main plot of the game.

Although if you think Liquid's cameo in this game was anywhere near good or Huey's character arc was 'awesome' then I reckon we probably experience fiction rather differently, and that might just be that. (And that's okay.)

The language and identity themes were so half-baked as to be farcical. Rather than exploring the effects of colonialism and globalisation, and the role language plays in that, it was just 'What if parasites were spread by language? What then?' Nothing meaningful to that in the slightest. Skull Face ranting about how he would destroy English in English as Venom just didn't give a single shit... this was supposed to be the climax. It fell flat, because it's both stupid and poorly executed. The identity theme might have been interesting if we learned about Venom's transformation before the final cutscene or if he was anything but a blank slate for the player to inhabit.

Other than Quiet's story and Kaz's hamburgers, none of it at all hit home with me.

The real BB missed out on having Quiet try to dry hump him all of the time in the ACC

So if you think about it he really is a victim of circumstance here

I can't lie I had that exact thought multiple times. Somehow I don't believe Quiet would have had quite as much in common with the real BB as she did with Venom.

 

[matrix-cat]

Does every single inch of the metal gear history need to be covered in excruciating detail in game? If we get a game about big boss forming foxhound then people will just whine that it doesn't end with solid snake being recruited and trained. they'll be moaning about how we were 'betrayed' and how the 'real missing link' wasn't explored. Leave some stuff to the imagination people.

One of the most common tips for creative writing is: "Is this the most interesting part of your character's life? If not, why aren't you showing us that?"

Post-MGS3, the Big Boss games have all been fairly pointless, self-contained side stories. Peace Walker had to invent a reason for its own existence (the ridiculous notion that Big Boss spent the last ten years not believing or not understanding The Boss' final sacrifice, or whatever bullshit that game was trying to sell me), and for all that talk about the big heelturn, MGSV is basically just Big Medic killing the mean man who blew him up in Ground Zeroes.

Meanwhile, we're missing out on seeing Big Boss and Solid Snake's mentor/student bond, or Big Boss starting his own sovereign nation, or his decision to hold the world at ransom with nuclear weapons. His years with Zero, Eva, Ocelot, Sigint and Para Medic, starting The Patriots? Nope, we don't get to see any of that. All of the major events in his life are delivered to us through second-hand accounts in Cassette Tapes, or the fucking timelines in the end credits.

 

[Kevin Shields]

It isn't numbered. It's V. This game's story & twist are so godawful it's impossible for it to be canon.

Alright then let's axe MGS4 and lots of parts of the first 3 games for being godawful and thus not part of canon. Ha that way Kojima can actually tell a decent story!

 

[Afrodium]

venom snake is just as much big boss! that's why the real big boss did all the actual important stuff for most of those years and venom snake's only accomplishment was a mostly irrelevant side quest against skull face and then dying, while characters in the know refer to him as a phantom and a ruse.

I mean, the real big boss, a charismatic leader who will go on to manipulate and betray his own man, reassures venom snake, the man whose identity and mind was erased and left to take the heat, that he's the real big boss too. and if you can't trust a manipulative hypocritical and cowardly war criminal who was complicit in setting you up as a giant target in his place, who can you trust

This reads like its a respond to my post at the top of the page so I'll reiterate - the twist isn't necessarily good or well written. I'm just saying that the point of the ending seems to have gone over the heads to people upset that they played the game as 'some random medic'. The point is that this guy is now just as much Big Boss as the 'real' BB, and that as long as everyone believes Venom to BB then he might as well be (after all, a lot of people in this thread were perfectly happy before they learned the truth).

Whether or not that's totally fucking stupid is a whole other story.

 

[Drencrom]

No. Kojima wanted Snake to convey emotion via facial expressions and such as opposed to exposition and whatnot.

Which makes it even more disappointing because he didn't express much with his face at all.

I don't see how making Snake less talkative and letting you see his emotions helped convey his thoughts and feelings better here than earlier games. The guy just stares, looks a bit pissed or confused thru the whole game.

Even MGS3 and MGS4 had more and seemingly better moments with Big Boss and Old Snake conveying emotions with expressions looking back on some cutscenes. They might not have the same range and as much subtle animations, but they convey much more still.

You can clearly see Old Snake's anger and confusion when BB comes up at the end of MGS4 and reconciles with him and looks of sadness and respect when both Ocelot and Big Boss dies. Big Boss looks of betrayal, respect and grief at the end of MGS3 and much more. There's nothing like that in MGSV, there's no moment when Venom Snake is hurt or affected like any of these examples.

I guess MGSV's biggest fault is there is really no personal stake or little emotional investment from the characters in the game overall besides "anger" from Miller and the Paz thing (that's completely optional and hidden). Quiet's ending was close but it lacked punch, at least when it comes to Venom Snake, barely saying anything and showing little emotion and there being no aftermath. The soldier quarantine thing was nicely done, but it was just random, faceless staff that you fulton by the hundreds anyway, so no real emotional investment from the player and they were already dying so it wasn't much of a sacrifice or anything. At least Snake express himself in the ash scene, but even then his words kinda comes across hollow.

 

[Griss]

One of the most common tips for creative writing is: "Is this the most interesting part of your character's life? If not, why aren't you showing us that?"

Post-MGS3, the Big Boss games have all been fairly pointless, self-contained side stories. Peace Walker had to invent a reason for its own existence (the ridiculous notion that Big Boss spent the last ten years not believing or not understanding The Boss' final sacrifice, or whatever bullshit that game was trying to sell me), and for all that talk about the big heelturn, MGSV is basically just Big Medic killing the mean man who blew him up in Ground Zeroes.

Meanwhile, we're missing out on seeing Big Boss and Solid Snake's mentor/student bond, or Big Boss starting his own sovereign nation, or his decision to hold the world at ransom with nuclear weapons. His years with Zero, Eva, Ocelot, Sigint and Para Medic, starting The Patriots? Nope, we don't get to see any of that. All of the major events in his life are delivered to us through second-hand accounts in Cassette Tapes, or the fucking timelines in the end credits.

Your last paragraph almost makes me angry. They had so much good material to choose from, and they pick this deathly-dull shit, and then tell you it wasn't even Big Boss to begin with.

Sigh.

Totally agree regarding all of your other points.

 

[SMZC]

By that logic MGS4 should be the least canonical of all MGS games.

Personally I'll keep considering MGS2 as the real end of the saga (with MGS3 being a nice bonus prequel) and MGS4 and everything that came after as terrible fanfiction. The gameplay is still great, though, and that's why I'm still a fan even after the embarrassment that was MGS4.


Yep, that's another thing I disliked about MGS4. The gameplay itself was great, but there was so little of it (and most of it contained in the first two acts) that you barely had time to enjoy it. And as you said, the gameplay/cutscenes ratio was completely fucked. Kojima didn't make the same mistake with MGSV, thankfully.

Ditto. I think MGS4 and MGSV both prove that we can't reasonably expect a game to have the insane amount of story content as MGS4 and the huge amount of gameplay as MGSV. If MGSV as it is already had cut corners due to presumed budget and time issues, just imagine if it had been conceived as a game with as much story content as previous games in the series.

Hell, even MGS2 (being my favorite in the series too) had a lot of cut content too, and little gameplay. A game just can't have it all. With that in mind, what MGSV has offered is pretty damn fantastic.

The victory of Japanese developers over western developers?

By aping the western obsession with open worlds gameplay, bankrolling a whole new engine, using it to create one of the most sparse open worlds I've personally ever seen, and spending so much time and money doing it that the publisher hacked everything apart just to get it released before the inevitable heat death of the universe?

I don't understand.

Say what you will about the development of the game, but the product itself has undeniably succeeded in teaching everybody else how to utilize actual open world game mechanics, as opposed to featuring an open world where you activate linear quests with bland, repetitive and canned gameplay.

 

[Freedom = $1.05]

Your last paragraph almost makes me angry. They had so much good material to choose from, and they pick this deathly-dull shit, and then tell you it wasn't even Big Boss to begin with.

Sigh.

Totally agree regarding all of your other points.

Yeah, the dream was that this game would lead right up to when BB is the head of Foxhound and Solid Snake is there under his command.

That was what people wanted and thought they'd get. Instead, kojima puts his troll hat on yet again and develops a story that no one wanted or asked for

which had it been well told could've been cool and you could've overlooked the whole troll-y aspect of the whole thing. But he flubbed the story and story telling, too, so if the whole story is supposed to be in service of the troll then that didn't really work out either.

Luckily the game plays so damn well that i'm not super bothered by how badly he blew it on so many levels but man he could've done so much more and done it better

 

[FriendlyGoat]

One of the most common tips for creative writing is: "Is this the most interesting part of your character's life? If not, why aren't you showing us that?"

Post-MGS3, the Big Boss games have all been fairly pointless, self-contained side stories. Peace Walker had to invent a reason for its own existence (the ridiculous notion that Big Boss spent the last ten years not believing or not understanding The Boss' final sacrifice, or whatever bullshit that game was trying to sell me), and for all that talk about the big heelturn, MGSV is basically just Big Medic killing the mean man who blew him up in Ground Zeroes.

Meanwhile, we're missing out on seeing Big Boss and Solid Snake's mentor/student bond, or Big Boss starting his own sovereign nation, or his decision to hold the world at ransom with nuclear weapons. His years with Zero, Eva, Ocelot, Sigint and Para Medic, starting The Patriots? Nope, we don't get to see any of that. All of the major events in his life are delivered to us through second-hand accounts in Cassette Tapes, or the fucking timelines in the end credits.

I mean that is all well and good, but Big Boss isn't the main character here so the creative writing advice doesn't apply the way you seem to want it to. You, the avatar/medic, are the main character. The story is about the Phantom Big Boss, not Big Boss. This is the most interesting part of the phantom's life, how he became and lived as Big Boss. The story isn't how Big Boss became bad. You might not like that, it might not be what you wanted or expected (I certainly had problems with the way it was told), but this is the story Kojima set out to tell. The other Big Boss remains a legend, which is still fine by me.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Your last paragraph almost makes me angry. They had so much good material to choose from, and they pick this deathly-dull shit, and then tell you it wasn't even Big Boss to begin with.

Sigh.

Totally agree regarding all of your other points.

Knowing Kojima he would have botched all those storylines anyway making it even more convoluted then it already is. I'm actually suprised he had a semblance of subtlety in connecting all the characters in the whole series into one game like I thought he would do.

 

[KarmaCow]

Say what you will about the development of the game, but the product itself has undeniably succeeded in teaching everybody else how to utilize actual open world game mechanics, as opposed to featuring an open world where you activate linear quests with bland, repetitive and canned gameplay.

I see this sentiment a lot but I don't see how the open world aspect of the game is worthwhile. They do a good job of taking that giant map and sectioning off sandboxes with "leaving the mission area" bullshit but otherwise it's pointless. There would be little lost if the game was a series of GZ style contained maps (with more of a buffer on the outer edges so there are not just three predefined entrances) because that's essentially what all the missions are in the game.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I feel like we didn't play the same game. The story of diamond dogs might be only tangentially related to the rest of the series but it was a good story

Man, I don't know.

The story of Diamond Dogs is about two people who want revenge and then revenge just sort of happens. They don't really take it, they're just there when it's expedient to have it.

 

[Griss]

I mean that is all well and good, but Big Boss isn't the main character here so the creative writing advice doesn't apply the way you seem to want it to. You, the avatar/medic, are the main character. The story is about the Phantom Big Boss, not Big Boss. This is the most interesting part of the phantom's life, how he became and lived as Big Boss. The story isn't how Big Boss became bad. You might not like that, but this is the story Kojima set out to tell. The other Big Boss remains a legend, which is still fine by me.

You only realise that at the very end of a 50+ hour game, meaning that you played through and experienced the entire thing as a dull moment in BB's life. The twist can't redeem what the actual experience was.

Yes, this story was about the making of Phantom BB. But you only see that in retrospect. If that had been established at the start the entire discussion about the story would be different. Not only that, but the most important part of that story, which is Venom's reaction when he finds out, and the reactions of Kaz, Ocelot (when he unhypnotises himself lol) and the rest as well. That stuff is either ignored or just hinted at in tapes. It's rubbish.

 

[Drencrom]

One of the most common tips for creative writing is: "Is this the most interesting part of your character's life? If not, why aren't you showing us that?"

Post-MGS3, the Big Boss games have all been fairly pointless, self-contained side stories. Peace Walker had to invent a reason for its own existence (the ridiculous notion that Big Boss spent the last ten years not believing or not understanding The Boss' final sacrifice, or whatever bullshit that game was trying to sell me), and for all that talk about the big heelturn, MGSV is basically just Big Medic killing the mean man who blew him up in Ground Zeroes.

Meanwhile, we're missing out on seeing Big Boss and Solid Snake's mentor/student bond, or Big Boss starting his own sovereign nation, or his decision to hold the world at ransom with nuclear weapons. His years with Zero, Eva, Ocelot, Sigint and Para Medic, starting The Patriots? Nope, we don't get to see any of that. All of the major events in his life are delivered to us through second-hand accounts in Cassette Tapes, or the fucking timelines in the end credits.

Exactly.

I was really looking forward to play Big Boss story of how he becomes the big villain of the series when MGSV was announced, doing what Peace Walker didn't. I was 100% sure that the game would tie together the series with the inception of Outer Heaven and FOXHOUND which is the beginning of Solid Snake's arc.

Instead we got an unfinished, disjointed, detour side story of his phantom just so that Kojima can have a shitty Shyamalan twist at the end and a badly presented message that "you're big baws and part of teh legend!! ))))".

No, we were Big Boss in MGS3. We're his retconned and unimportant duped medic in MGSV. A twist should give you a new appreciation of events and make things come together, this twist did the opposite.

 

[Not Spaceghost]

You could shave off like 20 seconds if you snipe him from near the insertion point.

I was able to
Snipe him from the landing zone

The only way I was able to consistently trigger him moving to a snipeable position visible from near the landing site was to cause an alert and hope that he ran down stairs.

The issue here is that it usually cost me the S rank or it took too much luck.

There are 3 boarded up windows on the floor he is on and he always spawns next to the middle one. My early attempts involved me trying to snipe him through the reddish metal plates on the window with the highest penetration sniper but it wouldn't work.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

Yeah, the dream was that this game would lead right up to when BB is the head of Foxhound and Solid Snake is there under his command.

That was what people wanted and thought they'd get. Instead, kojima puts his troll hat on yet again and develops a story that no one wanted or asked for

which had it been well told could've been cool and you could've overlooked the whole troll-y aspect of the whole thing. But he flubbed the story and story telling, too, so if the whole story is supposed to be in service of the troll then that didn't really work out either.

Luckily the game plays so damn well that i'm not super bothered by how badly he blew it on so many levels but man he could've done so much more and done it better

Your acting like Kojima and Konami released a finish product.
Did you not hear about all the drama that happened mid development?

I'm not saying the lost chapter (51) was enough to make up for what we got, but if we had gotten a finished and compete [A Hideo Kojima] game there would be more content that would better build up to the reveal and the link between Snakes.

Lets not pretend we didn't have a blast with the game until the realization that the game was unfinished (the first replayed main mission). Also the side missions repetitive nature was probably another case of needing easy to make content because they put a stop to the budget.

If we got a proper AHG, it wouldn't have been perfect, but we would have at least been able to properly blame Kojima for not delivering. Saying Kojima blew it makes it seem like his failure was all his own with no outside factors involved, when we know for a fact that it wasn't.

 

[KOMANI]

Your acting like Kojima and Konami released a finish product.
Did you not hear about all the drama that happened mid development?

I'm not saying the lost chapter (51) was enough to make up for what we got, but if we had gotten a finished and compete [A Hideo Kojima] game there would be more content that would better build up to the reveal and the link between Snakes.

Lets not pretend we didn't have a blast with the game until the realization that the game was unfinished (the first replayed main mission). Also the side missions repetitive nature was probably another case of needing easy to make content because they put a stop to the budget.

If we got a proper AHG, it wouldn't have been perfect, but we would have at least been able to properly blame Kojima for not delivering. Saying Kojima blew it makes it seem like his failure was all his own with no outside factors involved, when we know for a fact that it wasn't.

sure he's to blame too. He never plans well, and so his projects bleed cash because he's an "artist". And even if the project was finished, his writing is still bad.

 

[Freedom = $1.05]

Your acting like Kojima and Konami released a finish product.
Did you not hear about all the drama that happened mid development?

I'm not saying the lost chapter (51) was enough to make up for what we got, but if we had gotten a finished and compete [A Hideo Kojima] game there would be more content that would better build up to the reveal and the link between Snakes.

Lets not pretend we didn't have a blast with the game until the realization that the game was unfinished (the first replayed main mission). Also the side missions repetitive nature was probably another case of needing easy to make content because they put a stop to the budget.

If we got a proper AHG, it wouldn't have been perfect, but we would have at least been able to properly blame Kojima for not delivering. Saying Kojima blew it makes it seem like his failure was all his own with no outside factors involved, when we know for a fact that it wasn't.

Kojima had 5 years to develop a better story. The only thing people can point at in regards to story stuff that was cut was episode 51 and that still doesn't fix what most people feel MGSV blew it on.

The story in MGSV was supposed to show us how and why BB turned. Instead, we got Medic Guy Rising.

It wasn't a well told story and the twist wasn't well done enough to justify not actually tying this thing better to the overall series. Kojima has basically botched the Big Boss turning evil transition 3 times now, it is what it is.

Mind you, i still love the game and think it's GOTY easily but i can also be a reasonable person and see the flaws for what they are