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SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
- Thread starter MMarston
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I think Kojima dislikes going over already revealed plot points, and prefers to build on the places where the timeline is murky or plain old non-existent. My theory is that he deems whatever tragedy he can extract out of exposing already known events as "boring". He prefers to fill those unknown parts of the plot with new plot twists.
This is why, when he decides to tell the story of Big Boss in MGS3, he creates this whole story that was never referenced in MG1,MG2,MGS1 or MGS2, complete with a new unmentioned cast, complete with The Boss.
Then comes MGS4 and the problem for Kojima is that MGS4 spells out the whole nature of the Big Boss/Zero conflict in cutscenes. We are told how Les Enfants Terrible plays out, we know that Zero ends up as the bad guy. So Les Enfants Terrible and Zero's heelturn are now deemed "boring", and Kojima will refuse to touch them.
Then comes Portable Ops, which touches on the murky points of Gray Fox and Colonel Campbell, so those plot points, even when they were not touched on by Kojima himself, and the game may not be canon, are now boring and will not be touched on again.
And when Peacewalker comes, guess what, Les Enfants Terrible are glossed over, and we explore parts of the timeline we never saw referenced in the games starred by Solid. By PW, Zero and BB are already enemies because MGS4 said so, and LET already happened, because the plot twist that EVA carried the clones was already revealed in MGS4.
And now MGS5 decides to add another twist to the time period where Big Boss would be building Outer Heaven, because just building Outer Heaven is probably deemed boring by Kojima. He'd rather make up some new enemies for Snake to fight, some new plot twist about a Phantom Big Boss, because just having a game that ends in MG1 is not interesting enough to Kojima.
There was never going to be a "missing link" game because Kojima already had established in MGS4 that Zero had created the AIs which had gone rogue and BB was trying, perhaps with some misguided methods, to stop that. There's no need in the mind of Kojima to go over all that again, even when they are some of the most pivotal moments in the series, since he cannot see a way to add another plot twist to these events.
Shit, RAY - the Metal Gear killer - got killed by a Metal Gear.
To be fair, if you didn't expect some sort of bait and switch on the character you'll be playing, then you must be new to this series.
Nintendoga
Member
Funny enough the only game I'd ever want that would be THE MISSING LINK THAT COMPLETES THE SAGA is a game set in between MGS2 and MGS4.
Inferno313
Banned
Nintendoga
Member
Why would he expect another bait and switch for this game? It only happened once before. We played as BB from beginning to end in all of his games prior. Yeah there were some theories prerelease pointing to how we may not be playing as Big Boss, but then again this is the same fanbase that hyped up the "Chico is Quiet!" and "Big Boss is Skullface!" theories.
Freedom = $1.05
Banned
Again, the medic twist stinks because it does nothing to advance the whole overall metal gear universe's story. The twist was there solely to shock you and so that Kojima can explain why you fight big boss in mg1 and mg2
Which doesn't even make sense because he already used the snatcher excuse as to why big boss is in mg2
So it's just bad storytelling.
Which doesn't even make sense because he already used the snatcher excuse as to why big boss is in mg2
So it's just bad storytelling.
ShockingAlberto
Member
It's hard to say what's Kojima's fault and what's Konami's. The game having fairly important cut content is clearly Konami's, but KojiPro are not exactly the bastions of efficiency. Maybe another developer could have gotten it done in those same circumstances.
Is the lack of boss fights cut content or a decision? The use of tapes rather than cutscenes? The surgical extraction of Ocelot's personality? Quiet's design and story justification being Kojima's raging boner or Konami's insistent marketing department? Were the timers Konami pushing for monetization or Kojima wrongly believing they would balance character progress?
I doubt we'll ever know unless we got an unbiased tell-all, which means I doubt we'll ever know.
Is the lack of boss fights cut content or a decision? The use of tapes rather than cutscenes? The surgical extraction of Ocelot's personality? Quiet's design and story justification being Kojima's raging boner or Konami's insistent marketing department? Were the timers Konami pushing for monetization or Kojima wrongly believing they would balance character progress?
I doubt we'll ever know unless we got an unbiased tell-all, which means I doubt we'll ever know.
dr3upmushroom
Banned
what was the snatcher explanation?
KOMANI
KOMANI
quiet's design is an easy one. It's Kojima's boner that takes the guilt on that one.
Well,i finally finished the game and watched every ending(including the one that was removed) and i´m beyond dissapointed,i think the only cutscene i haven't seen yet is when 'big boss' goes apeshit from the nuclear trailer.
Gameplay is the best of the series but i would've prefered a more linear experience like previous games tbh;Remove the open world,mission-based structure,Kiefer Sutherland,motherbase management and recruitment,FOBs,hell even MGO if it was neccesary but give me a better single player experience with more bossfights,more variety etc.
The quality of the game goes downhill post-Ep1,there´s not even a fucking final boss!!Even if Ep3 was still included in the main game with NEW missions,the game still feels imcomplete.
The bossfights are great but we needed more,i know if you compare it to previous games it´s almost the same quantity but the difference is that V's lenght is 3 times bigger,it took me 60 hrs to complete the main story and i only fought 4 bosses:Quiet,Man on fire(If you can call this a bossfight),ST-84 and The Skulls.
The story is a disaster..how is it possible that Peace Walker handled the pacing better than this game? ironically Quiet´s side story is far better than the main story and yet,you have to lose her as a buddy because reasons.
The highlights of the story were the hospital scene(the intro blew my mind) and the killing spree inside the medic strut.
The main plot twist of the game completely alienates the entire story and the relationship between the characters,this is the final MGS game and we´re not even playing with big boss,even worse he is just a random guy(not even Gray Fox for fuck's sake...PythonSelkan may cry) and how is it possible that a doctor is the best man in your army? Are we talking about combat skills,loyalty or what? Why is he the best candidate to be the new boss?
-If Venom is not Snake,what makes the real big boss turn evil? And don´t tell me that it was the death of his comrades from motherbase because he didn't give a shit about using Diamond Dogs soldiers and Kaz as bait so he can leave through the back door(totally out of character).Hell,even the fake boss never goes evil after all the events in the main game,or am i the only one who was wondering when is this guy going to turn evil? Almost halfway and he never did nothing morally questionable,he even spared Huey.
-What happens with Diamond Dogs after the ending? Was the base destroyed,dismantled or what?
-What happens with Venom!? This mental copy of big boss,which it seems to be far more effective,easier,cheaper than a clone.Do we kill him in MG1 with Solid and we fight the real big boss in Zanzibar? there´s no more room for mistery,you have to explain things now because there won´t be another sequel.
-Why is big boss even running away? Cypher is obviously on his side,are the Man on Fire and Skullface such a huge threat that he has to leave everything behind? He can crush those two and build his nation without problems;"the whole world wants you dead.." who gives a shit when "the man who control information" is your ally?
There´s this strange feeling of dissapointment when you realize that everything was a lie,Big Boss never saved D-Dog,his feeling for his fellow soldiers is a lie,he never met Quiet(did she fall in love with the image of big boss or your avatar?).
I don´t know about you but when kojima mentioned the Language theme i expected something more deep,not this parasite/virus bullshit ala resident evil,i'm no biologist or anything like that but the explanation of those things is so ridiculous,parasites are pretty much the old nanomachines in MGSV,they can do magic.
I could overlook most of those flaws if they gave me some closure,like a final cqc fight between old BB and Snake in Zanzibar with Quiet's theme on the background.
I want a story expansion/dlc,a big one and free because this is a shitty way to end everything(I know this is not gonna happen..)
Maybe this is some meta stuff by kojima so we can feel the same burning anger and thirst for revenge against Konami just like Big Boss felt,i don't fucking know...
P.D the cutscene with Paz was bullshit.
Gameplay is the best of the series but i would've prefered a more linear experience like previous games tbh;Remove the open world,mission-based structure,Kiefer Sutherland,motherbase management and recruitment,FOBs,hell even MGO if it was neccesary but give me a better single player experience with more bossfights,more variety etc.
The quality of the game goes downhill post-Ep1,there´s not even a fucking final boss!!Even if Ep3 was still included in the main game with NEW missions,the game still feels imcomplete.
The bossfights are great but we needed more,i know if you compare it to previous games it´s almost the same quantity but the difference is that V's lenght is 3 times bigger,it took me 60 hrs to complete the main story and i only fought 4 bosses:Quiet,Man on fire(If you can call this a bossfight),ST-84 and The Skulls.
The story is a disaster..how is it possible that Peace Walker handled the pacing better than this game? ironically Quiet´s side story is far better than the main story and yet,you have to lose her as a buddy because reasons.
The highlights of the story were the hospital scene(the intro blew my mind) and the killing spree inside the medic strut.
The main plot twist of the game completely alienates the entire story and the relationship between the characters,this is the final MGS game and we´re not even playing with big boss,even worse he is just a random guy(not even Gray Fox for fuck's sake...PythonSelkan may cry) and how is it possible that a doctor is the best man in your army? Are we talking about combat skills,loyalty or what? Why is he the best candidate to be the new boss?
-If Venom is not Snake,what makes the real big boss turn evil? And don´t tell me that it was the death of his comrades from motherbase because he didn't give a shit about using Diamond Dogs soldiers and Kaz as bait so he can leave through the back door(totally out of character).Hell,even the fake boss never goes evil after all the events in the main game,or am i the only one who was wondering when is this guy going to turn evil? Almost halfway and he never did nothing morally questionable,he even spared Huey.
-What happens with Diamond Dogs after the ending? Was the base destroyed,dismantled or what?
-What happens with Venom!? This mental copy of big boss,which it seems to be far more effective,easier,cheaper than a clone.Do we kill him in MG1 with Solid and we fight the real big boss in Zanzibar? there´s no more room for mistery,you have to explain things now because there won´t be another sequel.
-Why is big boss even running away? Cypher is obviously on his side,are the Man on Fire and Skullface such a huge threat that he has to leave everything behind? He can crush those two and build his nation without problems;"the whole world wants you dead.." who gives a shit when "the man who control information" is your ally?
There´s this strange feeling of dissapointment when you realize that everything was a lie,Big Boss never saved D-Dog,his feeling for his fellow soldiers is a lie,he never met Quiet(did she fall in love with the image of big boss or your avatar?).
I don´t know about you but when kojima mentioned the Language theme i expected something more deep,not this parasite/virus bullshit ala resident evil,i'm no biologist or anything like that but the explanation of those things is so ridiculous,parasites are pretty much the old nanomachines in MGSV,they can do magic.
I could overlook most of those flaws if they gave me some closure,like a final cqc fight between old BB and Snake in Zanzibar with Quiet's theme on the background.
I want a story expansion/dlc,a big one and free because this is a shitty way to end everything(I know this is not gonna happen..)
Maybe this is some meta stuff by kojima so we can feel the same burning anger and thirst for revenge against Konami just like Big Boss felt,i don't fucking know...
P.D the cutscene with Paz was bullshit.
Freedom = $1.05
Banned
That the reason big boss survived after mg1 was that he was turned into a prototype of a snatcher by dr modnar, the man behind the snatcher project.
So not only did Kojima come up with a metal gear like explanation for his return but even found a way to tie it to Snatcher, too. But he couldn't leave well enough alone so now he retcons that with venom snake being BB in the first game and the real BB being in mg2
We only know about Mission 51 because of the video shown in the Collector's Edition. There's no telling what else was cut. To assume that mission is the only thing missing because it's the only thing we've seen is very naive. For most of this year, we've heard about Kojima being near-termination and completely awful working conditions at Konami; multiple missions may have been cut, and the ones we did get may be stripped down versions of what was intended.
We don't know for sure what's missing, but the hellhole that is Konami clearly isn't conducive for polishing or fine tuning.
12 repeated missions. One known removed mission. I'd say we're missing 13 missions.
That twist is much better than a Snatcher joke. TPP's endgame is that you become an 8-bit end boss sprite as a means to explain a very 8-bit plot twist. Love it.
Freedom = $1.05
Banned
This twist first appears in the very first footage ever shown of TPP. So he knew he was doing this venom snake stuff from the getgo. Like I said earlier, the only real story stuff people can say was cut was episode 51 and that came out. It still doesn't justify the twist or the bad storytelling. And you can't give Kojima the benefit of the doubt regarding the story because he's already done plenty of bad storytelling before TPP
The twist doesn't serve the story. The twist serves the twist. That's it. It's there for shock value. And he knew this game's story wasn't going to be significant because he kept pushing the whole V means V not 5 thing along the way. My gripes aren't even with it being a side story, it's that it's not a good story period. No one will look at the games story and say, yup that was a great metal gear story because it wasn't regardless of circumstance.
If you would like to play a mgs game where twist served the story and the storytelling well then there's mgs2. That game does right by the twist.
Grinchy
Banned
He wasn't exactly a chatterbox in Ground Zeroes, and that was the real guy. You know, the one who wouldn't shut up in MGS3 and PW.
We can see that quite a lot of the game was stopped half way through production and not finished, and also cut.
The scene with VS yelling with all the burning bodies around is not there.
The Zoo has no purpose, so pretty sure that was going to have a more meaningful role.
Motherbase is empty and has no life. Pretty sure we saw Motherbase with soldiers jogging, jeeps going around, choppers flying and people interacting. Not to mention the Sheep never made it to my motherbase location. Just to the worthless zoo.
Story... man.. where do i start.
Chapter 1 had a pacing of its own. 30 missions that take you through an arc. It has some sort of closure and climax. Capter 2 is like 5 actual missions? the rest are filler since they are the same missions we have played but with different conditions. We can safely assume that Kojima was made to pack all the cutscenes he had into random unlocks as you go through these missions to progress the story, and unlock the actual important missions. I felt like i had to go to Motherbase quite often to see if i would unlock a new cutscene that would explain what the heck is going on. They even included some of these missions as Side Ops. Pretty sure that this chapter had was planned to be to the same pace as Chapter 1... because the format made sense. You do missions that give you insight to what is next. So that got quite a bit of trimming.
And.. i am pretty sure that is just the tip of the iceberg.
I'm not trying to say the twist and Venom Snake is the result of a rushed game. That definitely was there all along: "From Fox, two phantoms were born." That element was definitely there from the beginning, but the supporting characters are definitely unfinished, so who can tell what kind of elaboration we're missing. A more interesting end may have made the entire experience more fulfilling.
He was in a solo infiltration mission in a heavily guarded facility with no hope for back up in GZ, of course he didn't talk a lot there.
Nonetheless, in all the scenes in which is was needed for him to talk he did, unlike in TPP.
Freedom = $1.05
Banned
A real nice touch. I always felt bad i left Kaz hanging after he made that request.
KOMANI
KOMANI
Well, then do the mission over... And over... And over... And over.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
You love the game because he prioritized the hardest part of getting a game right. The gameplay!
He had to make sure all of the systems that were in place worked well enough to be considered fun. The story is the easy part. Which is why we had fully voiced dialogue in the cut chapter. if you think 1 1/2 chapters is all there was to MGSV then you don't know Kojima (or didn't play Peace Walker) He had more story to tell.
The problem was he didn't get a chance to fit it in, because he was still building the gameplay in such away that the big moments happened while you had control of the game, which was one of the big issues with the last console release.
Yeah you can blame him for budget and what not, but at the same time Konami did get a new CEO mid development that had a completely different future for the company and didn't understand that Kojima was worth the cost. If there wasn't a changing of the guard we might have gotten A Hideo Kojima game. In the end the only thing that was able to be saved was the gameplay because of the long hard work that was put into making it all work.
Long time fans like myself can only imagine what could have been, but at the same time I'm not putting 100 percent of the blame on Kojima when some new upper management guy came in and flipped over the table mid way thru production telling everyone to focus on mobile and pachinko and forget about the legacy of Gradius, Bomberman, Goemon, Castlevania, Silent Hill, and Metal Gear that the company created because fuck consumers and loyal fans and give me money so I can bet on my favorite Soccer team.
A lot of the problems with the game are the unanswered questions that is a result of the game not being finished. I'm not saying his games are perfect when they are finished, but having cut content exist that answers at least one of the threads left undone leaves the possibility for more.
ShockingAlberto
Member
My problem with this explanation is that, even though Konami absolutely is a shit company, Kojima also was wasting money like water.Long time fans like myself can only imagine what could have been, but at the same time I'm not putting 100 percent of the blame on Kojima when some new upper management guy came in and flipped over the table mid way thru production telling everyone to focus on mobile and pachinko and forget about the legacy of Gradius, Bomberman, Goemon, Castlevania, Silent Hill, and Metal Gear that the company created because fuck consumers and loyal fans and give me money so I can bet on my favorite Soccer team.
Konami comes out looking worse, but it is not at all hard to see why Kojima ran out of rope. Just putting it down to them being greedy is reductionist to the point of bias.
Graphics Horse
Member
Well I, for one hope the 2014 trailer scene was made for the trailer. Because having your protagonist drop to his knees like that 3 fucking times, instead of the once we got, is a bit much.
Hellwarden
Member
I feel comfortable saying Kojima and Konami are both to blame for TPP's failures.
We'll never know who's to blame more, but they both share responsibility.
We'll never know who's to blame more, but they both share responsibility.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
yeah I was playing around there.
Kojima did go over budget, which is why its ok to blame him.
...I'm just saying he shouldn't take all the blame.
Especially when it comes to answers to questions being produced, but cut due to a newly appointed CEO's decision (even if it is somewhat justifiable)
Take the loss and earn it back with consumer trust/appreciation/good will etc... especially if your going to end a game that has a 20-30 year legacy with a huge fan base and a chance for mainstream penetration.
As much money as Kojima was spending, how much was the company making as a whole from it's other investments?
If Konami was Sega or Nintendo that would be one thing, but if Konami is Sony or Microsoft with their feet in more than just gaming, then bet on Kojima.
A finished quality game with great word of mouth will sell more and longer than an unfinished one.
Graphics Horse
Member
you have to get them. I think you can skip d walker if you rescue emmerich another way but I haven't tried that.
ShockingAlberto
Member
The Quiet choice is so weird.
Because it's just a choice between more content and less content. You don't really get any benefit from killing Quiet.
Because it's just a choice between more content and less content. You don't really get any benefit from killing Quiet.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
Emmirich builds you one later.
I didn't realize the special Walker could carry Emmerich when I first played the mission.
rbanke
Member
Yeah, I stumbled on her death scene on youtube which is why I posted that. It's an interesting thought that you might be able to play the entire game without having ddog, quiet or dwalker
This. I feel like it's just another indication that planned content, the repercussions of killing Quiet, was cut.
It's bold design by a visionary genius
Freedom = $1.05
Banned
if more story in TPP means we got more tapes like the Wolbachia nonsense, like more than the half hour of boring fucking Wolbachia shit we already got, well, then maybe we were spared by having less story in the game. Who knows what else would've been Wolbachia'd
Graphics Horse
Member
Ah ok. Maybe you have to fulton one?
When i redid the hard mission on fighting her. I shot her. lol. She just cried blood and exploded into particles.
I seriously wonder what happens if you shoot her at the start of the game.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Didnt they try to say it would start a new cold war?
I admit I did not pay attention to those tapes. Metallic Archaea or whatever.
Shagogod was practical for time period. Rail gun was practical. Arsenal is a glorified submarine so its practical.
REX itself, RAY, Peace Walker, and Sahelanthropus are not practical.
Graphics Horse
Member
I thought it might shut Kaz up for a minute.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
Fixed and released as a complete comment.
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