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[Reebot]

I'm pointing out the nature of the mission and how real-life medic specialties work. If you're not interested in having a discussion, just agree to disagree.

Since this would be the third (fourth?) time I've pointed out how easy it is to invent justifications and yet you persist in doing just that, I don't think its me who lacks interest.

So, again: my point here is how easy it can be to simply invent some justification. But this plot you've now created is jarring separate from everything we now. Its plainly implausible that MSF has a soldier better than Big Boss who has been unseen, unheard, and unspoken of until MGS V, and who's sole function appears to be as a minor field medic.

Even your supplied answers make little sense. If we suppose he's there in case the helicopter goes down, it now makes even more sense to have five or six guys in the chopper ready to go. Or to send two or three choppers. And on and on we can go.

 

[Matt]

A clone made from flawed recessive genes ends up being better than both the real BB -and- Venom, so I wouldn't get hung up on it.

You know that the whole "recessive genes are weak" thing in MGS is complete nonsense, right?

 

[KarmaCow]

There needs to be one of Snake in the scientist uniform, sneaking through to get the keycard from Granin but with Skull Face also in a scientist uniform covertly following him.

You know that the whole "recessive genes are weak" thing in MGS is complete nonsense, right?

Pretty sure he means within the themeing of the game itself rather than applying real world logic to the series. Pretty much everything the series falls apart otherwise.

 

[Neiteio]

Since this would be the third (fourth?) time I've pointed out how easy it is to invent justifications and yet you persist in doing just that, I don't think its me who lacks interest.

So, again: my point here is how easy it can be to simply invent some justification. But this plot you've now created is jarring separate from everything we now. Its plainly implausible that MSF has a soldier better than Big Boss who has been unseen, unheard, and unspoken of until MGS V, and who's sole function appears to be as a minor field medic.

Even your supplied answers make little sense. If we suppose he's there in case the helicopter goes down, it now makes even more sense to have five or six guys in the chopper ready to go. Or to send two or three choppers. And on and on we can go.

I feel like you're trying to find ways for this -not- to make sense.

It's a mission where BB intends to go in alone and bring back the prisoners. He's going to bring a small crew, on the very low chance something goes wrong. They're only taking a helicopter, one that's going to be filled with prisoners. So of course he's going to bring his best man who can also be a medic. It's not hard to grasp. Nor is it hard to grasp that someone can be exceptional in the present and become extraordinary in the future. Like many of the heroes in the series.

There's no invention here. Just a willingness to not be close-minded. Think about the nature of the mission and you can't say "It's implausible." If anything, the conclusion is, "Yeah, that's likely what he'd do."

Now I know why Kojima has to be so heavy-handed and spell everything out sometimes. :-\

You know that the whole "recessive genes are weak" thing in MGS is complete nonsense, right?

Yes, in real life. Still was a motivation for the characters.

Pretty sure he means within the themeing of the game itself rather than applying real world logic to the series. Pretty much everything the series falls apart otherwise.

Exactly.

 

[aly]

A clone made from flawed recessive genes ends up being better than both the real BB -and- Venom, so I wouldn't get hung up on it. One of the long-running messages in the series has been that your origins don't matter. Those in power keep failing to understand this and keep trying to manufacture greatness instead.

BB was great in his own rights through his own experiences, Like Solid Snake which is why Medic being as good is jarring. If anything Medic is the manufactured one who ends up as good for no reason. I guess I'm having a hard time with it sitting well with me, even if Medic proves his own worth eventually by fighting a Metal Gear.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

"No, listen to me, you absolutely have to hold off on the napalm for five minutes. I am watching something awesome here."

 

[Neiteio]

BB was great in his own rights through his own experiences, Like Solid Snake which is why Medic being as good is jarring. If anything Medic is the manufactured one who ends up as good for no reason. I guess I'm having a hard time with it sitting well with me, even if Medic proves his own worth eventually by fighting a Metal Gear.

That's assuming he was completely inexperienced before the transformation. But again, working side by side with Big Boss on his most personal missions...

 

[JayEH]

I feel like you're trying to find ways for this -not- to make sense.

It's a mission where BB intends to go in alone and bring back the prisoners. He's going to bring a small crew, on the very low chance something goes wrong. They're only taking a helicopter, one that's going to be filled with prisoners. So of course he's going to bring his best man who can also be a medic. It's not hard to grasp. Nor is it hard to grasp that someone can be exceptional in the present and become extraordinary in the future. Like many of the heroes in the series.

There's no invention here. Just a willingness to not be close-minded. Think about the nature of the mission and you can't say "It's implausible." If anything, the conclusion is, "Yeah, that's likely what he'd do."

Now I know why Kojima has to be so heavy-handed and spell everything out sometimes. :-


Yes, in real life. Still was a motivation for the characters.



Exactly.

The point people are trying to get at is that all this explanation for a nobody character before TPP is what makes the plot dumb. Nobody was thinking all of this when GZ was out.

 

[Reebot]

There's no invention here. Just a willingness to not be close-minded. Think about the nature of the mission and you can't say "It's implausible." If anything, the conclusion is, "Yeah, that's likely what he'd do."

I like how you equate accepting any plot whatsoever with being open minded, and then implicitly accuse me of being too stupid to understand subtle storytelling.

 

[Berserker976]

A clone made from flawed recessive genes ends up being better than both the real BB -and- Venom, so I wouldn't get hung up on it. One of the long-running messages in the series has been that your origins don't matter. Those in power keep failing to understand this and keep trying to manufacture greatness instead.

Dude, come on. That was an important part of the theme of MGS1. Two brothers, one overcoming his fate, the other defeated by his obsession with it. It's yet another thing cheapened by MGSV's twist. You can't use it to justify the contrived twist that is MGSV's medic switcheroo.

 

[Neiteio]

I like how you equate accepting any plot whatsoever with being open minded, and then implicitly accuse me of being too stupid to understand subtle storytelling.

I don't think you're stupid. I'm just disagreeing with the assertion of some (not necessarily yourself) that the medic premise can't work and make sense. I think it works fine.

The point people are trying to get at is that all this explanation for a nobody character before TPP is what makes the plot dumb. Nobody was thinking all of this when GZ was out.

I can totally understand someone thinking it's forced or contrived -- YMMV -- but it's not illogical or incorrect for a medic to work in this scenario.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I don't think MGSV has a lot of plot holes and the medic coming along is certainly not one of them.

But I also don't think being able to explain everything makes the story well-written.

 

[KarmaCow]

The stupidest part of the whole Medic thing is not whether this nobody could become BB because whatever, hynobullshit is hardly new to the series. The dumb part is that it was initiated by Zero of all people, who was up until a few months ago was willing to utterly destroy BB and also was working on clones to in an attempt to recreate him when he had this mind clone thing in his back pocket.

 

[Neiteio]

I just realized Skull Face probably posed as an owl going "whoooooo" in MGS3.

Dude, come on. That was an important part of the theme of MGS1. Two brothers, one overcoming his fate, the other defeated by his obsession with it. It's yet another thing cheapened by MGSV's twist. You can't use it to justify the contrived twist that is MGSV's medic switcheroo.

I'm not sure how you see it as cheapening it. It's the same theme. The medic is given a different face but is still his own man and rises to greatness.

If anything it supplements the theme from MGS1.

 

[KOMANI]

I've just created a time paradox... I deleted my Peacewalker save file. Now the Medic never joins MSF. Bwahahahaha!

 

[ShockingAlberto]

The big problem with the Medic twist is the best part of it is only in our heads.

Big Boss sacrificed his own soldier for "the greater good." He did to that soldier what America did to the Boss and he doesn't realize it.

But the story never even hints at this, or him realizing it, or Venom being upset with it, or if Kojima even realizes it. It doesn't accept this thematically, it's merely something happening in the background of the exposition.

Which sucks because it absolutely should have been the thing that gets explored.

 

[Reebot]

I don't think MGSV has a lot of plot holes and the medic coming along is certainly not one of them.

But I also don't think being able to explain everything makes the story well-written.

Yeah its not a plot hole, its just a bad plot point.

A plot hole would be how XOF got up and running given that Zero explicitly had little to no power in the CIA at the time of Snake Eater.

 

[Berserker976]

I just realized Skull Face probably posed as an owl going "whoooooo" in MGS3.


I'm not sure how you see it as cheapening it. It's the same theme. The medic is given a different face but is still his own man and rises to greatness.

If anything it supplements the theme from MGS1.

It cheapens it because apparently Big Boss was nothing special, and his genetic legacy means absolutely nothing. You can just hypnotize any old schmuck to be the exact same thing.

How in the hell does MGSV not cheapen it?

 

[Neiteio]

I don't think MGSV has a lot of plot holes and the medic coming along is certainly not one of them.

But I also don't think being able to explain everything makes the story well-written.

I agree. I'm just saying some of the perceived plot holes are simple enough to explain with even the smallest modicum of logic. Not everything needs a 10-minute codec.

I can understand people feeling jilted that they're not playing the hero they loved in previous games, and I can understand people feeling that the way the twist was revealed may feel forced and contrived.

But the medic angle? That's fine. Falls in line with real-life military operations, and makes sense to bring a small but extremely competent staff for a stealth mission where you're trying to sneak in (one chopper, one guy on the ground) and bring back multiple prisoners.

 

[Matt]

Yes, in real life. Still was a motivation for the characters.

Ok, just checking.

 

[funkystudent]

I really wish they fleshed out the whole Cypher versus The Philosophers story.


Seems weird that that part of the the greater story was never touched on much but seems really important and potentially really cool.

Its mentioned once or twice in passing in the entire series and thats it.

 

[RK9039]

Guys... Skull Face was the one who placed those Kerotan dolls everywhere in MGS3.

It's obvious.

 

[Neiteio]

It cheapens it because apparently Big Boss was nothing special, and his genetic legacy means absolutely nothing. You can just hypnotize any old schmuck to be the exact same thing.

How in the hell does MGSV not cheapen it?

I thought we were talking about parallels to Solid Snake and his origins.

My takeaway from Solid Snake and Venom is your origins don't define you.

 

[RevolverRoden]

Hmmm... so we finally got to see big boss's ass as ishmael...
all those years of crawling as snake in previous games wasn't enough

 

[A-V-B]

This third photo shows one of Skull Face's riskiest moves, nearly exposing himself to an unknown agent to protect Snake from harm.

Skull Face later received top marks from Zero.

 

[Neiteio]

Hmmm... so we finally got to see big boss's ass as ishmael...
all those years of crawling as snake in previous games wasn't enough

It's a smooth, clean-shaven crack.

 

[robotrock]

This third photo shows one of Skull Face's riskiest moves, nearly exposing himself to an unknown agent to protect Snake from harm.

Skull Face later received top marks from Zero.

the fact Skull Face was in MGS3 makes me like MGS3 less...

thanks for pointing it out i guess

 

[aly]

It's a smooth, clean-shaven crack.

Most disappointing part of the game tbh. BB should be a hairy man in all places. Kojima u hack!

 

[Berserker976]

I thought we were talking about parallels to Solid Snake and his origins.

My takeaway from Solid Snake and Venom is your origins don't define you.

We are talking about that though. It changes Solid Snake's origins, essentially. He's not an imperfect clone of the ultimate soldier, cursed by his genes into perpetual combat, he's just the imperfect clone of some dude, whose exploits can be easily replicated in anyone through hypnosis.

Instead of elevating Venom's story to Solid Snake's level, it lowers Solid Snake's story to Venom's level, if that makes sense.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

It's a smooth, clean-shaven crack.

Not necessarily

Big Boss' beard wasn't under the bandages so clearly at some point he got parasites to hide all his body hair at will

 

[Neiteio]

The big problem with the Medic twist is the best part of it is only in our heads.

Big Boss sacrificed his own soldier for "the greater good." He did to that soldier what America did to the Boss and he doesn't realize it.

But the story never even hints at this, or him realizing it, or Venom being upset with it, or if Kojima even realizes it. It doesn't accept this thematically, it's merely something happening in the background of the exposition.

Which sucks because it absolutely should have been the thing that gets explored.

Yes. Yes yes yes.

This is the game's biggest oversight.

I mean, as fans, we can point to MGSV and note how BB effectively did to Venom what the U.S. government did to The Boss. BB vowed to disavow governments for this reason, only to do the same thing to one of his best men. Chew soldiers up, and spit them out. Pawns on the chessboard of war.

The game should've dealt with this more directly. It's a way in which they could've still honored the "men become demons" tagline, because it's a considerable betrayal given the values BB had been promoting up to that point.

I guess Kaz kind of touches on it with his outrage, but they could've done more.

 

[Neiteio]

We are talking about that though. It changes Solid Snake's origins, essentially. He's not an imperfect clone of the ultimate soldier, cursed by his genes into perpetual combat, he's just the imperfect clone of some dude, whose exploits can be easily replicated in anyone through hypnosis.

Instead of elevating Venom's story to Solid Snake's level, it lowers Solid Snake's story to Venom's level, if that makes sense.

I see your point, and I don't begrudge you your opinion.

(And just to be clear, I don't have a problem with anyone here. I enjoy talking with all of you!)

My opinion is that I like the idea that you don't need to be related to BB to be great.

I think that's a better message for the series to have. *shrug*

 

[robotrock]

Most disappointing part of the game tbh. BB should be a hairy man in all places. Kojima u hack!

I think the hospital staff probably groomed him over the nine years if they were doing crazy muscle therapy stuff

 

[Ishida]

Okay, I was bored shitless so I made this.

 

[786110]

My opinion is that I like the idea that you don't need to be related to BB to be great.

You just need to emulate him

 

[Matt]

The big problem with the Medic twist is the best part of it is only in our heads.

Big Boss sacrificed his own soldier for "the greater good." He did to that soldier what America did to the Boss and he doesn't realize it.

But the story never even hints at this, or him realizing it, or Venom being upset with it, or if Kojima even realizes it. It doesn't accept this thematically, it's merely something happening in the background of the exposition.

Which sucks because it absolutely should have been the thing that gets explored.

Yeah, this part seems to be constantly glossed over. BB was complacent in a horrible crime against one of his own soilders, and does not seem to care at all.

 

[Neiteio]

Not necessarily

Big Boss' beard wasn't under the bandages so clearly at some point he got parasites to hide all his body hair at will

Not parasites. Not Wolbachia.

The Wool-Butt-chia.

Okay, I was bored shitless so I made this.

Incredible work, lol

 

[KarmaCow]

The big problem with the Medic twist is the best part of it is only in our heads.

Big Boss sacrificed his own soldier for "the greater good." He did to that soldier what America did to the Boss and he doesn't realize it.

But the story never even hints at this, or him realizing it, or Venom being upset with it, or if Kojima even realizes it. It doesn't accept this thematically, it's merely something happening in the background of the exposition.

Which sucks because it absolutely should have been the thing that gets explored.

Way to add another layer of disappointment to the game.

 

[Neiteio]

Yeah, this part seems to be constantly glossed over. BB was complacent in a horrible crime against one of his own soilders, and does not seem to care at all.

This is the one place where I actually wish Kojima was -more- heavy-handed. I think it's clear we're supposed to conclude, "Wow, BB was legit shook by XOF and ended up being no better than the governments he swore to disavow." But I think this connection will fly over many people's heads. Not to mention it's so ripe with dramatic potential.

Chances are The Medic idolized BB and trusted him with all of his heart. To have no say in the body double scheme, to be used like that... Put in extreme danger, with a huge burden placed on your shoulders...

That's rough.

 

[TitusTroy]

in the beginning of the game when you are given the choice of customizing your face, we are led to believe story-wise, this is the face you want to be after the plastic surgery?...and the doctor/nurse get killed before the surgery starts correct?...and at the end of the game we find out that this scene is happening after the plastic surgery already took place?

 

[RevolverRoden]

We are talking about that though. It changes Solid Snake's origins, essentially. He's not an imperfect clone of the ultimate soldier, cursed by his genes into perpetual combat, he's just the imperfect clone of some dude, whose exploits can be easily replicated in anyone through hypnosis.

Instead of elevating Venom's story to Solid Snake's level, it lowers Solid Snake's story to Venom's level, if that makes sense.

Wait Solid Snake is a clone of Venom, not Big Boss?

 

[Salaadin]

Yeah, this part seems to be constantly glossed over. BB was complacent in a horrible crime against one of his own soilders, and does not seem to care at all.

He seems to care but Ocelot is insistent in the plan and the game just never expands past that.

 

[Neiteio]

Wait Solid Snake is a clone of Venom, not Big Boss?

No, Solid Snake (and Liquid, and Solidus) are all clones of BB. Remember, the DNA test with Venom doesn't match Eli.

Neither of us are saying otherwise, you're just getting confused by how we were confusing each other, lol.

 

[Unknown One]

I see your point, and I don't begrudge you your opinion.

(And just to be clear, I don't have a problem with anyone here. I enjoy talking with all of you!)

My opinion is that I like the idea that you don't need to be related to BB to be great.

I think that's a better message for the series to have. *shrug*

That was the message of MGS2. Raiden is unrelated to Solid Snake and became his equal. I believe it.

 

[Berserker976]

Wait Solid Snake is a clone of Venom, not Big Boss?

Nah, he's a clone of Big Boss. I just meant that MGSV basically states that Big Boss isn't anything exceptional, because apparently everyone has the potential to become him with enough hypnosis. Being a genetic clone of him means nothing, according to MGSV.

 

[Neiteio]

That was the message of MGS2. Raiden is unrelated to Solid Snake and became his equal. I believe it.

Excellent point. Not sure why I forgot MGS2. MGS2 pretty much establishes the concept of "anyone can be BB, genes or not." MGSV is merely continuing it.

Nah, he's a clone of Big Boss. I just meant that MGSV basically states that Big Boss isn't anything exceptional, because apparently everyone has the potential to become him with enough hypnosis. Being a genetic clone of him means nothing, according to MGSV.

It actually means nothing according to MGS2, as I was just reminded in the post above.

MGSV is just continuing the idea started in MGS2.

 

[Matt]

This is the one place where I actually wish Kojima was -more- heavy-handed. I think it's clear we're supposed to conclude, "Wow, BB was legit shook by XOF and ended up being no better than the governments he swore to disavow." But I think this connection will fly over many people's heads. Not to mention it's so ripe with dramatic potential.

Chances are The Medic idolized BB and trusted him with all of his heart. To have no say in the body double scheme, to be used like that... Put in extreme danger, with a huge burden placed on your shoulders...

That's rough.

It's not really a matter of being heavy handed, it's that any characterization along those lines is left out of the game. What you are inferring is logical, but it doesn't come from the material.

 

[RevolverRoden]

No, Solid Snake (and Liquid, and Solidus) are all clones of BB. Remember, the DNA test with Venom doesn't match Eli.

Neither of us are saying otherwise, you're just getting confused by how we were confusing each other, lol.

Nah, he's a clone of Big Boss. I just meant that MGSV basically states that Big Boss isn't anything exceptional, because apparently everyone has the potential to become him with enough hypnosis. Being a genetic clone of him means nothing, according to MGSV.

Ahhh OK. Scared the shit out me.
But hey, this isn't the first time hypnosis works wonders in the MGS world. Remember Liquid Ocelot? heh

 

[JayEH]

in the beginning of the game when you are given the choice of customizing your face, we are led to believe story-wise, this is the face you want to be after the plastic surgery?...and the doctor/nurse get killed before the surgery starts correct?...and at the end of the game we find out that this scene is happening after the plastic surgery already took place?

That was my interpretation too.

 

[Neiteio]

It's not really a matter of being heavy handed, it's that any characterization along those lines is left out of the game. What you are inferring is logical, but it doesn't come from the material.

I'd say it's there in the material (Kaz's disillusionment, Venom punching the mirror, etc) but it's light compared to what it should've been. It has huge implications for how BB is changing and what he's willing to do, so it should've received a more direct focus. Ultimately, I'm still OK with the lighter approach, but the way BB misused Venom is the one area I wish received more exploration.