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[Neiteio]

Good stuff!

I think - for me at least - what would have really helped me swallow the pill here would have been something/anything within either GZ or a different opening of TPP that showed Big Boss and Medic together. We wouldn't have our twist perhaps and so i know why they didn't go that way. It was probably never on the drawing board to illustrate who this soldier was in any fashion that we as the player could more properly transplant ourselves onto this blank canvas but if they had shown a few missions where Medic was your buddy and he was gawdamned good in the field we could put aside some of this vitrol about how the story just dropped that ball completely and perhaps understand BBs and Ocelots decision to brainwash this particular soldier.

And i'm forcing myself to realize that a big part of my problem with the game is actually just that. My problem. I don't really enjoy silent protag games where we are supposed to imagine ourselves in this position and create our own drama and story by a connection to the world through our place in the story. They've never really resonated with me and they almost always fall short on the story side of things because of the lack of a strong personality in the central character (Vs biggest problem imo) so it's probably just more a personal preference thing.

I respect the idea and I think someone already mentioned on the last page that if this were a stand alone new sneaking/soldier game it would probably go over much easier and be genuinely interesting as a new take on the hero paradigm.

As it stands - I really wanted to play as big fucking boss and feel kind of robbed of a final opportunity to do that. C'est La vie.




dude stawp i can't breath lol

I agree, it would've been helpful for there to be a few more beats where we see the faceless Medic doing something heroic.

To be fair, though, we do see him shield BB with his body during the helicopter crash. I think that shows incredible courage and quick thinking.

And who knows, maybe that factored into the decision-making process for the body double scheme... BB seems to have an intuitive ability to recognize special gifts in others.

 

[wiibomb]

Correct.

I just finished liste to that tape, I forgot.. damn... so very sad

 

[Eppy Thatcher]

That's a good point with how you can play as any of the Diamond Dogs. It really does seem like Kojima is saying BB is not a special snowflake. But at the same time I could see how this would strike others as implausible.

But then again, it is a videogame, where the very act of us playing and making shit happen might be a point in itself.

And I fully agree they should've gone in deep with exploring BB's betrayal of Venom and how it parallels the U.S. government's betrayal of The Boss. (Or maybe "misuse" is the better word.)


I can't prove this, but here's how I picture things went down:

Big Boss trains MSF, passing along his skills and know-how, just like how The Boss trained him. At some point, he discovers an especially gifted student. This is The Medic. Think of how The Boss was one of the greatest soldiers who ever lived, and how her pupil achieved a similar level of greatness. Big Boss must've saw that potential here. He thought that if anyone could fill in for him, it would be The Medic.

So the physical and mental gifts, the training, the skill, the discipline, the willpower, it was already there. And that's what makes Venom succeed -- not thinking he's BB, but being a truly exceptional student.

There's no rule that says after The Boss, every great soldier has to be tied to BB. In this case BB discovered The Medic in his own ranks. And when the time was right, The Medic became Venom.

That's how I think it went down. Again, I can't prove it, but nothing contradicts it in the material.

See ... this is a better story than what we got though. I would absolutely play a game as a soldier under Big Boss's wing. From early firefights and fun medic mini games to a survival stage where you have to get back to Mother Base on your own through crazy opposition to BB taking you on your first truly "black" op with him all the way up to him sitting you down praising you skill and growth and gumption and then popping the question. The big twist. The ultimate sacrifice a commander could ask for his soldier.

"I want you to make an Outer Haven. The world will be coming for me soon and I can't throw any of our other men to the wolves. Ocelot has his role to play and Kaz was never a soldier. Not like us. Do this for me. Help me change our world. Become Big Boss."

I would be fucking. HYPED. at that ending. I'd be in here singing Medic's praises. You couldn't keep my hands outta that dudes pants.


EDIT:
I'd also like to re-state that people don't give Raiden enough credit. The guy is not a normal soldier. He isn't a man of will power his whole life who finds a purpose. He is a very directly engineered killing machine. The S3 project was stacked to succeed from the beginning. Without BBs genes and mind it took an entire life of Child soldier horrors and mind wiping the likes of which an 80s Ocelot would cream his jeans over to get him to a point where he was even close to stacking up to SS. And while snake is a bamf and he did take down (lawf) BOTH Big Bosses... what he really did was kill an aging version of himself. Not completely unexpected.

 

[Neiteio]

Another thing is that the whole theme about memes and the S3 plan in MGS2 was that manipulation and lies are A) an uncomfortable necessity to maintain society, and B) something that participants in society will go along with, sometimes even aware and willingly, even if it means suppressing their doubts as long as the lies meet their expectations and desires. That feels like an actual message, and it's integral to every part of MGS2.

The Venom twist feels like a stoner suddenly thinking, "Dude... if they like, made a machine, that made you look and sound like another person... and you like, had their memories... would you, like, BE that person? Fucking blew my own mind..."

My interpretation when Venom hears "The Truth" and later sours on it (the mirror punch) is that he reflected on his life and ultimately concluded, "Fuck you, Big Boss: -I- made my legend, and -your- face has nothing to do with it."

I don't think Venom thinking he's BB is all that necessary to doing what he did. It landed him in a leadership role and allowed him to recruit soldiers to his cause, but he still had to have the ability and willpower to do everything else.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Another thing is that the whole theme about memes and the S3 plan in MGS2 was that manipulation and lies are A) an uncomfortable necessity to maintain society, and B) something that participants in society will go along with, sometimes even aware and willingly, even if it means suppressing their doubts as long as the lies meet their expectations and desires. That feels like an actual message, and it's integral to every part of MGS2.

The Venom twist feels like a stoner suddenly thinking, "Dude... if they like, made a machine, that made you look and sound like another person... and you like, had their memories... would you, like, BE that person? Fucking blew my own mind..."

Hm. In a way though....isn't Venom a product of his Scene and memes? This is evident by the fact that random soldiers on your base are talking about the Boss, about Cobra Unit-and I don't think there's an instance of Venom Snake just saying something he wouldn't have known about MGS3/PW in the whole game. When talked to about events-Operation Snake Eater, The Boss, Peace Walker, he's being talked to. He's not making nor starting a conversation himself.

And all those things are quite known enough that hypnotizing VS to make him believe he's BB, there was probably enough osmosis as him being one of BB's closest soldiers that it was probably an easy sale.

Again....this isn't in the game, it's conjecture. It's me analyzing, trying to figure out how VS fits in this game, how he's able to emulate BB. And in the games world, it kinda fits? Next to BB, surrounded by his stories, he's slowly hypnotized over years into believing he is BB. He knows enough that he'll likely buy into it and delude himself when facing doubt. It could've been spelled out better, but....the fragments are there.

 

[RevolverRoden]

Man, Kojima really did succeed in making us (me) feel phantom pain. I lost my most OP buddy... I lost the only reason I had to do side ops (Paz)...

No that was Skull Face.

Yooooooo

 

[Neiteio]

See ... this is a better story than what we got though. I would absolutely play a game as a soldier under Big Boss's wing. From early firefights and fun medic mini games to a survival stage where you have to get back to Mother Base on your own through crazy opposition to BB taking you on your first truly "black" op with him all the way up to him sitting you down praising you skill and growth and gumption and then popping the question. The big twist. The ultimate sacrifice a commander could ask for his soldier.

"I want you to make an Outer Haven. The world will be coming for me soon and I can't throw any of our other men to the wolves. Ocelot has his role to play and Kaz was never a soldier. Not like us. Do this for me. Help me change our world. Become Big Boss."

I would be fucking. HYPED. at that ending. I'd be in here singing Medic's praises. You couldn't keep my hands outta that dudes pants.

I agree, that would've been amazing. I'd prefer that because I love these characters and would love to see a story where BB takes on a father figure role to your character who becomes a new BB.

At the same time, I think I understand what Kojima is going for here. He embraces the fact this is a videogame by providing a character that is a stand-in for the player. Maybe I'm being charitable, but he probably sees it as a sweet sendoff and way of saying thanks to the players for being a part of the legend.

It's kind of surprising since Kojima always seemed like a "story-first" developer, yet here he is ending the series in a fourth-wall-breaking way that acknowledges this is an interactive medium and the player played a role in it.

 

[foxtrot3d]

yes, the problem is it fails at making Venom a true avatar, starting with the fact it only reveals so at the end of the game. The rest of it you're thinking you're some weird silent established Big Boss, how can anyone properly step into him when he's like that? It's hard for people to divorce that he's supposed to be "you" when the entire rest of the game he wasn't and then after the game he screws off and dies without you.

Of course, I never said the twist was good. The fact that he doesn't speak much is because he is YOU. As your own personal avatar inserted into the MG universe you can't talk too much or be allowed to alter events, you're simply allowed to witness and play out events that happen. If Venom had an actual personality that would conflict with the idea that he's supposed to be you and thus a blank slate.

I agree, that would've been amazing. I'd prefer that because I love these characters and would love to see a story where BB takes on a father figure role to your character who becomes a new BB.

At the same time, I think I understand what Kojima is going for here. He embraces the fact this is a videogame by providing a character that is a stand-in for the player. Maybe I'm being charitable, but he probably sees it as a sweet sendoff and way of saying thanks to the players for being a part of the legend.

It's kind of surprising since Kojima always seemed like a "story-first" developer, yet here he is ending the series in a fourth-wall-breaking way that acknowledges this is an interactive medium and the player played a role in it.

MGS2 did that, hell even MGS1 had some meta-level commentary on the player's thirst for violence and action. But, I hate the notion that we the players "want" to be Big Boss or helped craft his legend. BB is an asshole who continually sought to create a world in which war was constant, I never wanted to embody him. And, he's been apart of MG since the first game I had nothing to do with helping craft his legend, Kojima did all that.

 

[RevolverRoden]

To everyone saying Venom is as skilled as Big Boss: he's not. He needs buddies, BB doesn't :^)
Also, venom is just A++ all around. I'm sure BB is S or more.

 

[Eppy Thatcher]

I agree, that would've been amazing. I'd prefer that because I love these characters and would love to see a story where BB takes on a father figure role to your character who becomes a new BB.

At the same time, I think I understand what Kojima is going for here. He embraces the fact this is a videogame by providing a character that is a stand-in for the player. Maybe I'm being charitable, but he probably sees it as a sweet sendoff and way of saying thanks to the players for being a part of the legend.

It's kind of surprising since Kojima always seemed like a "story-first" developer, yet here he is ending the series in a fourth-wall-breaking way that acknowledges this is an interactive medium and the player played a role in it.

I wonder if he ever imagined the amount of backlash this direction for the story would get. There was that little introspective video where he talked about doing this story in a way that you could only do in a video game. I hoped and dreamed that he meant we would be spanning a lot of time and bridging gaps back to games that came out when i was a kid. I hoped that he meant to include a lot of fun call backs and forwards to a world he constructed and that this would be the final brick in a wall that painted a picture of this entire BB legacy. His early days, his leadership, his downfall, his sons... all of it.

instead what i got was a semi-coherent attempt to pull players into a story that we never asked to be involved in and to not only fumble the execution but leave us in the dark on this oh so clever angle until the very end - meaning he not only soured my taste for Big Boss but now... somehow... i'm fucking disappointed in myself.

la li lu le lo - 2 + 2 = 5 - I am a video game character

To everyone saying Venom is as skilled as Big Boss: he's not. He needs buddies, BB doesn't :^)
Also, venom is just A++ all around. I'm sure BB is S or more.

There was that moment... i'm sure for everyone in here ... when you first look over and notice his stats are all A++ and not S+++ or something and you think
"Huh... that's weird."

#notallcomas

 

[Ghost Slayer]

To everyone saying Venom is as skilled as Big Boss: he's not. He needs buddies, BB doesn't :^)
Also, venom is just A++ all around. I'm sure BB is S or more.

BB is garbage in PW too when you compare his rank to others S rank solider

 

[Neiteio]

Of course, I never said the twist was good. The fact that he doesn't speak much is because he is YOU. As your own personal avatar inserted into the MG universe you can't talk too much or be allowed to alter events, you're simply allowed to witness and play out events that happen. If Venom had an actual personality that would conflict with the idea that he's supposed to be you and thus a blank slate.

While I like the twist, I agree this is probably why Venom is a bit quiet. He'll say and do things that seem roughly in line with what BB would do (albeit with a gentler and more benevolent tone), but at the same time he won't say too much because they want the player to take ownership of the character.

This is why Venom is so expressive in terms of face and body language. You get a mood from him but since he's not saying much you're free to insert your own explanation for what he's feeling and why.

I have to admit, it kind of worked for me. I feel oddly close to Venom for a character who says so little.

MGS2 did that, hell even MGS1 had some meta-level commentary on the player's thirst for violence and action. But, I hate the notion that we the players "want" to be Big Boss or helped craft his legend. BB is an asshole who continually sought to create a world in which war was constant, I never wanted to embody him. And, he's been apart of MG since the first game I had nothing to do with helping craft his legend, Kojima did all that.

I agree BB isn't a good role model, what with the warmongering and all, but when I say the "player is BB," I mean more in terms of being an exceptional soldier. I think that's the meta-narrative: The player, through their own determination and ingenuity, was able to overcome the scenarios that Kojima crafted to test them.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

To everyone saying Venom is as skilled as Big Boss: he's not. He needs buddies, BB doesn't :^)
Also, venom is just A++ all around. I'm sure BB is S or more.

Big Boss needed Skull Face in MGS3, though

 

[Intheflorsh]

To everyone saying Venom is as skilled as Big Boss: he's not. He needs buddies, BB doesn't :^)
Also, venom is just A++ all around. I'm sure BB is S or more.

By that logic, does that mean the random Russian soldiers with S ranks are BB tier?

 

[Eppy Thatcher]

By that logic, does that mean the random Russian soldiers with S ranks are BB tier?

Absolutely. They just don't believe it enough.

USSR probably banned Peter Pan.

 

[Neiteio]

So, uh... How does one view Venom's stats? Have I overlooked him in all the time I was poring over Staff Management?

And since I'm too lazy to boot up the game right now (hitting X about 50 times at the start to get past the announcements is a bit much), what are his stats?

 

[matrix-cat]

So, uh... How does one view Venom's stats? Have I overlooked him in all the time I was poring over Staff Management?

And since I'm too lazy to boot up the game right now (hitting X about 50 times at the start to get past the announcements is a bit much), what are his stats?

I think he's like A+/A++ in everything. "Our best man" my ass; my Yellowtail in Peace Walker would have smoked Venom.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

To everyone saying Venom is as skilled as Big Boss: he's not. He needs buddies, BB doesn't :^)
Also, venom is just A++ all around. I'm sure BB is S or more.

In PW he just has A stats >_>

 

[Gr1mLock]

That's a good point with how you can play as any of the Diamond Dogs. It really does seem like Kojima is saying BB is not a special snowflake. But at the same time I could see how this would strike others as implausible.

But then again, it is a videogame, where the very act of us playing and making shit happen might be a point in itself.

And I fully agree they should've gone in deep with exploring BB's betrayal of Venom and how it parallels the U.S. government's betrayal of The Boss. (Or maybe "misuse" is the better word.)


I can't prove this, but here's how I picture things went down:

Big Boss trains MSF, passing along his skills and know-how, just like how The Boss trained him. At some point, he discovers an especially gifted student. This is The Medic. Think of how The Boss was one of the greatest soldiers who ever lived, and how her pupil achieved a similar level of greatness. Big Boss must've saw that potential here. He thought that if anyone could fill in for him, it would be The Medic.

So the physical and mental gifts, the training, the skill, the discipline, the willpower, it was already there. And that's what makes Venom succeed -- not thinking he's BB, but being a truly exceptional student.

There's no rule that says after The Boss, every great soldier has to be tied to BB. In this case BB discovered The Medic in his own ranks. And when the time was right, The Medic became Venom.

That's how I think it went down. Again, I can't prove it, but nothing contradicts it in the material.

Didn't BB even implicitly say to Ocelot 'he's one of our best men' or something to that effect in the scene after the ambulance crash?

 

[Intheflorsh]

In PW he just has A stats >_>

Venom is canonically a better soldier than BB.

Glad that's settled.

 

[Neiteio]

I think he's like A+/A++ in everything. "Our best man" my ass; my Yellowtail in Peace Walker would have smoked Venom.

Ha, I definitely have some recruits that are better than Venom then. Guess I need to start playing as my Diamond Dawgs.

 

[Henkka]

Then all these cutscenes were part of the imagination of the phantom? Nothing really happened?

You know I'm not really sure whether Paz was a hallucination or a legit ghost

 

[Neiteio]

Didn't BB even implicitly say to Ocelot 'he's one of our best men' or something to that effect in the scene after the ambulance crash?

Can't remember. That'd be nice if we could pinpoint such a line.

Even without it, I think we can safely assume they had full confidence in The Medic. Their whole plan would've fallen apart if he was anything less than exceptional.

...man, all of this makes me really want to know more about The Medic.

 

[The Lone Courier]

So now that I think about it Venom/medic must have been close to Paz to make up all the info in the tapes.

 

[Neiteio]

You know I'm not really sure whether Paz was a hallucination or a legit ghost

Hmm, never considered it might be a literal ghost.

My take re: Paz:

The horn in Venom's head, pressing on his brain, causes the hallucination, but the content of the hallucination (i.e. Paz) is a combination of PTSD, guilt over Ground Zeros, love for Paz (the way he remembers her), and soul-searching for peace.

I think it works especially well if you complete the Paz subplot before Huey's trial and exile, because it helps contextualize Venom's mercy in that moment. The fifth Paz tape has Paz telling Venom that he can kill Huey, Skull Face and Zero but it won't bring anyone back. What he's really hearing is his heart talking to him. It just took the memories of Paz and coming to terms with what she meant to him. Ultimately he learns a lesson about compassion.

Super-powerful scene. One of the best subplots in the series.

 

[Stereogatari]

I'm not as motivated to play the game after finishing the Truth Mission. I liked the ending and it gave me goosebumps "I'M BIG BOSS!" but playing the game afterwards, I keep thinking to myself "I ain't no Big Boss." This was Trolljima's intention no doubt, I feel the Phantom Pain.

Can't remember. That'd be nice if we could pinpoint such a line.

Even without it, I think we can safely assume they had full confidence in The Medic. Their whole plan would've fallen apart if he was anything less than exceptional.

...man, all of this makes me really want to know more about The Medic.

They should have linked The Medic with Decoy Octopus somehow.

 

[Dangansona]

Man it shouldn't have taken me so long to beat the game. I feel like I missed all the great emotions and discussion.

I will say that in the end, the story totally worked for me. With the knowledge that a true ending was coming, the base ending was pretty good. I loved the camerawork and acting when we got it in the game.

I just watched the true ending on YouTube. I suspected this from the beginning, but the actual implications of it are amazing. Most critics must not have seen this ending. It really explained a lot of questions I had about BB.

Also I feel so bad for Kaz in that situation. I need to read up about what his actual involvement is post MGSV because I've forgotten.

Edit: so what was the point of psycho mantis being in here? Why did he keep popping up and what was his connection with Liquid?

 

[Resilient]

Man it shouldn't have taken me so long to beat the game. I feel like I missed all the great emotions and discussion.

I will say that in the end, the story totally worked for me. With the knowledge that a true ending was coming, the base ending was pretty good. I loved the camerawork and acting when we got it in the game.

I just watched the true ending on YouTube. I suspected this from the beginning, but the actual implications of it are amazing. Most critics must not have seen this ending. It really explained a lot of questions I had about BB.

Also I feel so bad for Kaz in that situation. I need to read up about what his actual involvement is post MGSV because I've forgotten.

the true ending doesn't explain anything
it's like, life goes on, and the missing link is a 2min monologue from the real Big Boss which retcons a heap of shit, and in the process of creating that ending retcons all the great character development of past. particularly the motives of Zero, the legacy of Operation Snake Eater, as well as the actual growth of Zanzibar Land which we know nothing about. this game eats donkey dick, and the FOBs really fucking piss me off too, what the fuck is the point of trying to do a guy with L35 security, they just shit on your face.

 

[Gr1mLock]

Can't remember. That'd be nice if we could pinpoint such a line.

Even without it, I think we can safely assume they had full confidence in The Medic. Their whole plan would've fallen apart if he was anything less than exceptional.

...man, all of this makes me really want to know more about The Medic.

I rewatched it and he didnt say it in the ending after all. I could have sworn i heard BB say that. Maybe it was in one of the tapes. Either way I think if the intention was to make the player feel like he was Big Boss it would have been more effective if BB had died and Zero and Ocelot decided to replace him with Medic/V. The fact that BB was out there in Zanzibarland just kinda took the wind out of the sails of the whole 'you are big boss' thing. The ending was like an actor patting his stunt double on the back and going 'no man..YOU are Tom Cruise!'.

 

[Dangansona]

the true ending doesn't explain anything
it's like, life goes on, and the missing link is a 2min monologue from the real Big Boss which retcons a heap of shit, and in the process of creating that ending retcons all the great character development of past. particularly the motives of Zero, the legacy of Operation Snake Eater, as well as the actual growth of Zanzibar Land which we know nothing about. this game eats donkey dick, and the FOBs really fucking piss me off too, what the fuck is the point of trying to do a guy with L35 security, they just shit on your face.

How does it affect Snake Eater or its legacy in any way?

 

[Golnei]

They should have linked The Medic with Decoy Octopus somehow.

He probably didn't need to actually show up; but explicitly acknowledging him or the methods he used might have been a good idea - anything to make the twist's central contrivance less jarring.

USSR probably banned Peter Pan.

You've never heard of Питер Пэн?

Speaking of which, the artist who did the pixel art animations of Miller and Venom just posted the third part.

 

[Neiteio]

Man it shouldn't have taken me so long to beat the game. I feel like I missed all the great emotions and discussion.

I will say that in the end, the story totally worked for me. With the knowledge that a true ending was coming, the base ending was pretty good. I loved the camerawork and acting when we got it in the game.

I just watched the true ending on YouTube. I suspected this from the beginning, but the actual implications of it are amazing. Most critics must not have seen this ending. It really explained a lot of questions I had about BB.

Also I feel so bad for Kaz in that situation. I need to read up about what his actual involvement is post MGSV because I've forgotten.

Edit: so what was the point of psycho mantis being in here? Why did he keep popping up and what was his connection with Liquid?

I think the twist worked well for me because I came to feel for Venom, even though he was a mostly silent protagonist. His body language is so expressive, and he conveys a certain mood without saying much. It invites you to kind of take ownership of the character and interpret how he's feeling. So when all of the sudden he's hit with the news that he's been used by Big Boss, it's rough and I feel for him.

Much of this is reading between the lines, of course, but it's informed by the experience of having taken this ride, suffered what he suffered, and then learning the burden was placed on him without his consent, and by the man he trusted most. I look at BB now and I think, "Man, that's cold."


RE: Mantis (a.k.a. The Third Child): He was a Soviet experiment. A child with the ability to manipulate microwaves, giving him telekinetic powers. He is devoid of ego -- he has no sense of self -- so he gravitates toward individuals with strong feelings of negativity.

This is why he is attracted to the Man on Fire, a.k.a the catatonic remains of Col. Volgin from MGS3. Volgin hates Big Boss, even in his catatonic state. Mantis senses that hate and brings Volgin to life, unleashing his latent supernatural powers and seeking out Big Boss. This leads to the incident at the hospital at the beginning of the game.

But when Skull Face comes along, Skull Face's hate for Big Boss, Major Zero, and the English language overpowers Volgin's hate for Big Boss. This gives Skull Face control of Mantis, which in turn gives him control over Volgin. So now Skull Face is controlling Mantis and the Man on Fire.

Skull Face uses Mantis to make Metal Gear Sahelanthropus work. The Metal Gear is an unfinished prototype, more advanced than anything before or after, and it wasn't working until Skull Face used Mantis to control it like a puppet.

Later, in Mission 30, when Eli flies over Sahelanthropus in the helicopter, Eli's own hate for Big Boss -- stronger than Skull Face, stronger than Volgin -- allows Eli to take control of the Metal Gear.

Hope that clarifies things.

 

[foxtrot3d]

I agree BB isn't a good role model, what with the warmongering and all, but when I say the "player is BB," I mean more in terms of being an exceptional soldier. I think that's the meta-narrative: The player, through their own determination and ingenuity, was able to overcome the scenarios that Kojima crafted to test them.

I disagree. It's more than the player being a good soldier. With MGS2 we're supposed to sort of idolize Solid Snake, we want to be him. When we observe him as Raiden he's presented in an even more heroic fashion, it's more than just his badassness he is presented with a sort of moral righteousness that the player can only hope to aspire to. So the idea that we secretly wish to be SS isn't far fetched.

In MGSV, Ocelot says he (meaning you) believes that he is Big Boss and later on we get the whole "you're Big Boss and so am I." The twist seems to be presented in the same fashion as MGS2, in that we secretly wish to be BB. But, no sane minded individual would wan to be him. Again, Big Boss is a massive asshole and I'm not talking about after the twist, he's already a big asshole at the beginning of PW. I don't want to be him or his Phantom Venom.

 

[Reebot]

How does it affect Snake Eater or its legacy in any way?

Now we know that Big Boss succeeded not by his strength or skill but by the craftiness of Skull Face.

 

[Griss]

I'm surprised people are upset about losing Quiet. I feel like it's justified.

I also had a pretty unusual experience in that D-Dog didn't grow up for me until mission 43, which was ridiculous. But that meant that when I lost Quiet just 2/3 missions later, I suddenly had my new buddy ready to use. And frankly, that's when I learned what OP really is. D-Dog is so powerful he almost makes the game less fun, because there's no chance he misses an enemy and there's no longer any chance of being surprised. The entire scouting portion of infiltration is removed.

But between D-Dog and D-Walker I feel like I've still got options. I had my fill of Quiet, and the story and themes of the game justified her removal.

 

[Neiteio]

I'm surprised people are upset about losing Quiet. I feel like it's justified.

I also had a pretty unusual experience in that D-Dog didn't grow up for me until mission 43, which was ridiculous. But that meant that when I lost Quiet just 2/3 missions later, I suddenly had my new buddy ready to use. And frankly, that's when I learned what OP really is. D-Dog is so powerful he almost makes the game less fun, because there's no chance he misses an enemy and there's no longer any chance of being surprised. The entire scouting portion of infiltration is removed.

But between D-Dog and D-Walker I feel like I've still got options. I had my fill of Quiet, and the story and themes of the game justified her removal.

The story justification for her departure is good, but it just sucks losing access to an entire set of gameplay mechanics.

I heard about it in advance and maintained a separate save that still has her. I'll swap saves when I want to see her again.

 

[Dangansona]

Later, in Mission 30, when Eli flies over Sahelanthropus in the helicopter, Eli's own hate for Big Boss -- stronger than Skull Face, stronger than Volgin -- allows Eli to take control of the Metal Gear.

Hope that clarifies things.

Whoa, I didn't know the attraction to hatred thing, so I certainly didn't know about Eli having the strongest hatred and mantis heading to him. Only question I have left (for tonight lol) is why does Eli hate big boss so much? Just for being taken away from the other kids? Or does he know his origin as his clone?

 

[SomTervo]

Can't remember. That'd be nice if we could pinpoint such a line.

Even without it, I think we can safely assume they had full confidence in The Medic. Their whole plan would've fallen apart if he was anything less than exceptional.

...man, all of this makes me really want to know more about The Medic.

Lol i've been sitting here reading this conversation assuming you all remember shit about The Truth and the final tapes.

I like the story - although i fully appreciate if you guys dont - but Ocelot and BB explicitly say that Venom was their best soldier.

> best soldier (evidently not far off BB)
> on the chopper that goes down, so an easy body double switch
> 'gave his life' to save BB on the chopper, so surely wouldn't mind having his whole existence transformed into BB's against his will

Doesn't explain other anomalies - like Kaz not recognising the shrapnel horn - but I really don't think this 'medic needs a backstory' line of argument is relevant. The point is that the medic is basically dead after GZ. They transform him into BB in all but DNA. Ridiulous, but that's how it is. He's turned into BB/'the player as a facsimile of BB'.

 

[Reebot]

Whoa, I didn't know the attraction to hatred thing, so I certainly didn't know about Eli having the strongest hatred and mantis heading to him. Only question I have left (for tonight lol) is why does Eli hate big boss so much? Just for being taken away from the other kids? Or does he know his origin as his clone?

Liquid hates BB, always has. He's got a complex about living in the shadow of Big Boss.

 

[Neiteio]

Speaking of which, the artist who did the pixel art animations of Miller and Venom just posted the third part.

Amazing. But Kaz the one-armed/one-legged burger man is still the best!

I want pixel work of Code Talker doing the "Aliens" meme (the guy with the crazy hair) and saying "Wolbachia."

 

[FantasticMrFoxdie]

that pixel art is damn gorgeous

 

[Neiteio]

Whoa, I didn't know the attraction to hatred thing, so I certainly didn't know about Eli having the strongest hatred and mantis heading to him. Only question I have left (for tonight lol) is why does Eli hate big boss so much? Just for being taken away from the other kids? Or does he know his origin as his clone?

Eli is a young Liquid Snake, who was one of three clones (the other two being Solid Snake and Solidus Snake) created from Big Boss' DNA.

It seems that Eli learned the truth about his origins and hates the fact he was manufactured. He feels seething hatred for Big Boss (and adults in general). This hate is what allows him to influence Mantis and control Sahelanthropus.

 

[Hypron]

Venom is canonically a better soldier than BB.

Glad that's settled.

But seriously, an A in PW is the equivalent of A++ in TPP, since in peace walker it'd just go E, D, C, B, A, S. Whereas in TPP you have more graduation and it goes [...],B, A, A+, A++, S, S+, S++.

Also, that doesn't mean much. None of the Snakes got where they were just because of their physical abilities. Each one of them faced tons of enemies that were just plain better physically. And yet, they still prevailed and created their legend because of their willpower, ingenuity and intelligence (and charisma/leadership skills in Big Boss/Venom Snake's case).

 

[Neiteio]

Lol i've been sitting here reading this conversation assuming you all remember shit about The Truth and the final tapes.

I like the story - although i fully appreciate if you guys dont - but Ocelot and BB explicitly say that Venom was their best soldier.

> best soldier (evidently not far off BB)
> on the chopper that goes down, so an easy body double switch
> 'gave his life' to save BB on the chopper, so surely wouldn't mind having his whole existence transformed into BB's against his will

Doesn't explain other anomalies - like Kaz not recognising the shrapnel horn - but I really don't think this 'medic needs a backstory' line of argument is relevant. The point is that the medic is basically dead after GZ. They transform him into BB in all but DNA. Ridiulous, but that's how it is. He's turned into BB/'the player as a facsimile of BB'.

Not sure how far back you've been following this conversation, but I like the story and the twist, as well, and yeah, even without remembering 100% what they said about him as a soldier, it just seems obvious that The Medic was to BB as BB was to The Boss. A star pupil -- someone who learned from the best, who had the skills and the intuition and the training and the drive. So I'm sure he earned their confidence. And yeah, him shielding BB with his body must've made an impression.

 

[Neiteio]

But seriously, an A in PW is the equivalent of A++ in TPP, since in peace walker it'd just go E, D, C, B, A, S. Whereas in TPP you have more graduation and it goes [...],B, A, A+, A++, S, S+, S++.

Also, that doesn't mean much. None of the Snakes got where they were just because of their physical abilities. Each one of them faced tons of enemies that were just plain better physically. And yet, they still prevailed and created their legend because of their willpower, ingenuity and intelligence (and charisma/leadership skills in Big Boss/Venom Snake's case).

Exactly how I see it. If it was purely a test of physical ability, there would be other soldiers who are faster, or stronger, and so on. But like you say, what makes the Snakes exceptional is their willpower, their ingenuity, their heart. That makes them more than the sum of their parts.

 

[wiibomb]

Hmm, never considered it might be a literal ghost.

My take re: Paz:

The horn in Venom's head, pressing on his brain, causes the hallucination, but the content of the hallucination (i.e. Paz) is a combination of PTSD, guilt over Ground Zeros, love for Paz (the way he remembers her), and soul-searching for peace.

I think it works especially well if you complete the Paz subplot before Huey's trial and exile, because it helps contextualize Venom's mercy in that moment. The fifth Paz tape has Paz telling Venom that he can kill Huey, Skull Face and Zero but it won't bring anyone back. What he's really hearing is his heart talking to him. It just took the memories of Paz and coming to terms with what she meant to him. Ultimately he learns a lesson about compassion.

Super-powerful scene. One of the best subplots in the series.

That's pretty much my conclusion, but I never thought of Paz being an actual ghost, though that wouldn't explain very well why Kaz and Ocelot were there. I still feel the hallucination is the best explanation for now.

A shame I didn't listen to that tape before that mission, it would have had a huge impact at that huey scene.

I know people bash a lot the game, but this game puts a lot of effort in the meta themes it sets

 

[Dangansona]

Eli is a young Liquid Snake, who was one of three clones (the other two being Solid Snake and Solidus Snake) created from Big Boss' DNA.

It seems that Eli learned the truth about his origins and hates the fact he was manufactured. He feels seething hatred for Big Boss (and adults in general). This hate is what allows him to influence Mantis and control Sahelanthropus.

Yeah I get all of that, I was just surprised he somehow knew this if that's why Liquid hated BB at this point in the story.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

That's pretty much my conclusion, but I never thought of Paz being an actual ghost, though that wouldn't explain very well why Kaz and Ocelot were there. I still feel the hallucination is the best explanation for now.

A shame I didn't listen to that tape before that mission, it would have had a huge impact at that huey scene.

I know people bash a lot the game, but this game puts a lot of effort in the meta themes it sets

I think that Ocelot and Kaz were hallucinations as well? Physically on MB, if you go around, that room can't exist. Not only that you can overhear soldiers saying that the boss keeps going into that area even though it's unfinished.

 

[Neiteio]

That's pretty much my conclusion, but I never thought of Paz being an actual ghost, though that wouldn't explain very well why Kaz and Ocelot were there. I still feel the hallucination is the best explanation for now.

A shame I didn't listen to that tape before that mission, it would have had a huge impact at that huey scene.

I know people bash a lot the game, but this game puts a lot of effort in the meta themes it sets

Yeah, thinking about it more, it's definitely just a hallucination. That's how Ocelot and Kaz show up, and the room takes form, etc.

But it's very meaningful. Venom has internalized the love Paz meant to him. It's like his heart takes the form of Paz and has a conversation with him about mercy and compassion. It's incredibly beautiful.

 

[Hellwarden]

You know, that scene with Quiet in the rain?

It would have been fine if it was just Quiet acting like a human, and standing in the rain. Maybe she takes off her boots.

Then boss comes up, and she splashes him. He hands boots. Held gaze.

That would have been fine. Hell, if the directing was there, it might have even tricked me into forgetting the plot holes concerning Quiet's character. That would have been fine.

I say this as a person who usually isn't bothered by/likes fanservice.

The scene as it is, is the grossest shit I've seen all year.