You can say by this game he is a rather smart kid, being with Zero on England may had all the info for him to just realize at that time, may be even a photo of snake
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SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
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You can say by this game he is a rather smart kid, being with Zero on England may had all the info for him to just realize at that time, may be even a photo of snake
Seeing as how Venom is so introvertive, hearing how this precise tape showed a lot more of the guilt he has made me think that there's a lot I would like to know about Venom... because I feel Big Boss doesn't feel the same at all, he might have become already a true demon based on the last scene.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
I wondered today about why there were two names: Ishmael and Ahab
Ishmael makes sense, he's the first son of Abraham in the Bible. Ahab was a king.
Yet, Abraham is the father of all nations if you think about it. Everything just sorta flooded my mind in a very Judeo Christian way.
I wouldn't normally think about this, but Venom, or V, and the Phantom all fit in there just right. There might be nonchalant and doesn't really mean any of those.
BB is like the father of nations to me and Venom is the first son (at least was on the right track) to doing his father's will (regardless of the outcomes).
The best quote has to be from Kaz when he talked about being a junkyard dog and now they're DD's. That scene is great. He also speaks about Venom not sleeping anymore. Such a moving game if you ask me (in its own way).
Ishmael makes sense, he's the first son of Abraham in the Bible. Ahab was a king.
Yet, Abraham is the father of all nations if you think about it. Everything just sorta flooded my mind in a very Judeo Christian way.
I wouldn't normally think about this, but Venom, or V, and the Phantom all fit in there just right. There might be nonchalant and doesn't really mean any of those.
BB is like the father of nations to me and Venom is the first son (at least was on the right track) to doing his father's will (regardless of the outcomes).
The best quote has to be from Kaz when he talked about being a junkyard dog and now they're DD's. That scene is great. He also speaks about Venom not sleeping anymore. Such a moving game if you ask me (in its own way).
Dynasty8
Member
LOL.
Hellwarden
Member
As far as what I've seen in games, it is.
It's fucking gross.
It actively makes me think Kojima just got lucky when he made cool characters in the past.
And I won't lie, if anyone tries to defend it as a deeper theme of the game that everyone else is missing, I think they're a first class moron.
I thought the fifth Paz tape was so beautiful that I recorded a video of it that shows how well it works with BB's expressions and body language.
Ishmael and Ahab are characters from Moby-Dick. Look up the novel and you might see why the names were chosen.
ClaptoVaughn
Member
Plus, they should have put that scene earlier on, like when you bring her back from your first mission together and just force the weather to rain during the helicopter ride or something.
By the time the scene played for me, Quiet and I had been on lots of missions already, many of which must have been in the rain. So I was just like, "why is she so happy to be in the rain NOW? She's acting like it's the first time she's seen it in years."
The Silver
Member
I wish they had done more with Ishmael, show how BB handles/reacts to situations and contrast him with Venom.
Dynasty8
Member
Yeah, the scene was completely unnecessary.
To be honest, the more I think about the game the more disappointed I get.
Super Stardust
Member
Is there any way to start a new game and keep my mother base/fob unlocks?
I think people are paying too much attention to the plot and not enough to the mechanics in trying to decipher (D-Cipher, missed buddy opportunity there Hideo) what Kojima was trying to say. I personally think it might be a commentary on modern gaming with all its bloat, flaws and cynicism obscuring the pure and true gameplay that is the heart of the medium. I mean, he puts together the most beautiful core gameplay loop, and then surrounds it by hitting all of the most shitty cliches from modern gaming with surgical precision:
-The big empty open world with hundreds of copy-pasted side missions to bloat running time;
-Box and plant macguffins to collect all over the map so the player always feels like they're 'achieving' something, shit, why not collect the soliders and cars while you're at it;
-The uninterested and underused celebrity voice actor (really should have got Patrick Stewart here to hammer the point home);
-Real life timer action; 'check-it-and-forget-it gameplay' with the deployments;
-Important story relegated to audio logs or menu items;
-Shoehorned microtransactions (this one's essential for the commentary to work, imo);
-A game design where 90% of the budget is spent on the ridiculously bombastic first two hours of the story and a couple of set-piece cutscenes (to be used in commercials), while the ending is completely neglected and pretty much unfinished as only 0.000001% of players will ever bother to see it;
-An entire section of the game delayed/missing at launch (Metal Gear Online);
-"Your own personalised home base / house / garage!" (Fallout 4 makes it look like this has potential to become the new "See that mountain?!");
-The obligatory frustrating escort mission;
-The 'tail and listen to these dudes' misson (the Ass Creed special);
-Marketing that gave away 90% of the story and made it look far more involved than it was;
-Constant outrageously over-the-top sexualisation of a female character; but most of all
-The overriding desire to make the player feel like the ultimate badass, and keep them engaged and 'immersed' in some ultimate male power fantasy. The entire story of the game is based around this idea. In your dreams, it's you. You are the badass. This is the big twist.
It's all there, save for a minigame for when Snake picks a lock or a hacking minigame at Mother Base. (That would have made the whole thing too obvious, really.) It's clearly a satire of modern games, and what it takes to sell a modern game, and, I suppose, what a publisher demands from and in a modern game. And how despite all of those issues - or indeed perhaps because of them - you can sell millions and get rave reviews on the back of hype, marketing and
. Bravo Kojima. Bravo.
I'm sure someone else can make a better fist of that argument than I can but the guy's shift towards the Western zeitgeist here is unmistakeable and blatant, even if some of the points above are tongue in cheek / not perfectly serious.
-The big empty open world with hundreds of copy-pasted side missions to bloat running time;
-Box and plant macguffins to collect all over the map so the player always feels like they're 'achieving' something, shit, why not collect the soliders and cars while you're at it;
-The uninterested and underused celebrity voice actor (really should have got Patrick Stewart here to hammer the point home);
-Real life timer action; 'check-it-and-forget-it gameplay' with the deployments;
-Important story relegated to audio logs or menu items;
-Shoehorned microtransactions (this one's essential for the commentary to work, imo);
-A game design where 90% of the budget is spent on the ridiculously bombastic first two hours of the story and a couple of set-piece cutscenes (to be used in commercials), while the ending is completely neglected and pretty much unfinished as only 0.000001% of players will ever bother to see it;
-An entire section of the game delayed/missing at launch (Metal Gear Online);
-"Your own personalised home base / house / garage!" (Fallout 4 makes it look like this has potential to become the new "See that mountain?!");
-The obligatory frustrating escort mission;
-The 'tail and listen to these dudes' misson (the Ass Creed special);
-Marketing that gave away 90% of the story and made it look far more involved than it was;
-Constant outrageously over-the-top sexualisation of a female character; but most of all
-The overriding desire to make the player feel like the ultimate badass, and keep them engaged and 'immersed' in some ultimate male power fantasy. The entire story of the game is based around this idea. In your dreams, it's you. You are the badass. This is the big twist.
It's all there, save for a minigame for when Snake picks a lock or a hacking minigame at Mother Base. (That would have made the whole thing too obvious, really.) It's clearly a satire of modern games, and what it takes to sell a modern game, and, I suppose, what a publisher demands from and in a modern game. And how despite all of those issues - or indeed perhaps because of them - you can sell millions and get rave reviews on the back of hype, marketing and
solid gameplay
I'm sure someone else can make a better fist of that argument than I can but the guy's shift towards the Western zeitgeist here is unmistakeable and blatant, even if some of the points above are tongue in cheek / not perfectly serious.
I think it's fair to allow him to create one sexualised character to the degree of Quiet when you consider how restrained he's been in the past. I mean, he's only included a scene where you can watch a 14-year old girl shower in a single game.
Kojima must be some fucking time traveler because most of those trends didn't become trends until one-two years ago. MGSV probably was in development since 2011.
Even if it were true, it's not really satire when it actually does all the things so called modern games do and not put a spin or message to it.
However, your post might be sarcasm entirely.
I would be fine with it if the character wasn't given the most important female role in the game (hell she's the only female character in the game. Paz isn't even real). It's the same reason I don't care about Cindy from FFXV because she's such a minor character. But when you have Quiet have a shitty disgusting design, shitty character arc, and the ONLY female character in the game; it's not hard to dislike her.
Yeah. I mean, do you guys even know how hard it is for him to keep it in his pants? You should be praising him instead!
Eh putting the countless cool characters he has developed down to luck because he's screwed up (more than once in my eyes and many others) is moronic. The two aren't mutually exclusive, you can create many fantastic and many terrible characters or moments with them, I mean Quiet Isn't terrible, just poorly used in many parts.
Haunted
Member
Anyone else just step away from the game at the conclusion of 45? I've barely touched the game since as it feels like a good moment of finality for the game and not having Quiet around is bumming me out.
Edit: meant 45...
That scene was bad, but no where near as bad as the shower scene with Quiet. The rain scene was more cringe-worthy...the other was...I kind of wish I hadn't of seen it.
Edit: meant 45...
That scene was bad, but no where near as bad as the shower scene with Quiet. The rain scene was more cringe-worthy...the other was...I kind of wish I hadn't of seen it.
Haha that's pretty funny and somewhat sad
Haunted
Member
Well, it's the end of the game, so I assume most people stopped after that.
All hail the infallible genius of Kojima! Obviously all the seemingly bad design choices and obtuse writing are just part of his insightful commentary on the state of modern gaming. I have no doubt that in the coming years MGSV will be religiously studied and fondly remembered as one of the highest pinnacles of gaming, a true masterpiece for the ages.
Gameplay wise it still is to be fair
The poses she strikes in the chopper if you leave her long enough are really gross too.
I mean the whole treatment of Quiet is terrible from beginning to end: attacks Venom, forcing you to perform violence against her; after being defeated becomes devoted to you, remaining a completely silent, passive presence who is entirely obedient; gazes longingly at Venom and sexually poses for him/the player; has physical and sexual violence inflicted upon her, which is used for character development for the male protagonist rather than her.
I find it really frustrating as I think MGSV and the Witcher 3 are probably the best AAA titles on current gen systems, but their gender roles are just so regressive.
It's a really weird infantalising scene, the way it's directed. It's clearly meant to come across as, oh look, they're real people, they're just having fun. But it comes across as... like, they're preschoolers or some shit.
Should've just loaded up ink guns and played splatoon
Should've just loaded up ink guns and played splatoon
Hellwarden
Member
No, I won't lie here. I think Quiet is terrible. She's a thing made by Kojima to titillate first and foremost, and a character second. Her concept as a character is literally just there to show her tits and ass. She's the unfortunate natural evolution of the Beauty and the Beast Unit from MGS4.
And I'll be honest. I don't think creating a character to titillate is automatically a bad thing. It can be fun sometimes. But the scenes with Quiet move into creepy territory when she's being tortured, and it's still focusing on her tits.
But I think most MGSV characters are bad. Venom is fine considering what they were trying to do with him. But the majority of the cast is just a bunch of angry men who are boring to watch.
The Witcher 3 is a million times more progressive in its handling of gender roles than MGSV. I don't see how they're comparable at all.
SJRB
Gold Member
I have no problem with Venom and Quiet frollicing in the rain. The game is so serious all the time so it was a good change of pace. It is one of the only cutscenes where Venom shows some actual emotions, it also shows that even though everything that has happened for some reason they respect each other, maybe even care for each other.
It's a little, TINY sprinkle of humanity in an otherwise utterly lifeless character.
I just really, really wish they didn't add the first part where Quiet is rolling around all seductively, because that completely trainwrecks the purpose of the cutscene. Or perhaps I'm just thinking too highly of it and Kojima just wanted to show a stripped down Quiet rolling around like a fucking porn star doing a Pornhub teaser video.
Sumio Mondo
Member
Huh? What in the fuck? I just knew it was weird that we never get to fight Skull Face after so much build up to him. Makes total sense why it's cut now and we have the weird cutscenes we do. Wonder how the fight would have gone down...
Something I find problematic about Quiet is how the game expects you to like her, but... well, she's a cold-blooded murderer you first see slicing the throats of an innocent nurse and doctor, and then she's almost luxuriating in how she's about to stab you... and then decides to shoot you instead... before deciding to strangle you... and then she gets set on fire and falls out the window, and frankly I was like "GOOD" at that point because she was clearly a psycho killer.
The next time we meet her she tries putting a bullet through your skull out in the desert, after presumably killing numerous Soviets for no reason. Later on she tries driving a knife though a Diamond Dog's teeth and down his throat, an absolutely horrifying scene that is one of the most disturbing and seemingly unprovoked acts of violence I've seen in a game. Seriously, what the fuck. I think Kaz or Ocelot or someone speculates she was trying to kill someone she thinks is infected, but what a horribly sadistic way to "address" that problem.
I guess where I'm going with this is that while most people can't get past the pandering shots of the tits and ass (and trust me, I find those problematic, as well), for me it was the fact the game expected us to like this horrible murderer. That's what I found most unsettling.
It would've been better if there was some context for her actions. Give me some backstory that puts her actions in perspective. Maybe she doesn't really like killing people. Maybe some tragic turn of events in her life forced her to work for Skull Face (before she was set on fire and needed parasite therapy). Anything to explain her life as an assassin. I know people think assassins are "cool" in fiction, but I can't connect with them unless there's a reason for why they've become that way.
So yeah. This is probably the first time someone's complained about Quiet's character and it wasn't related to the horny depictions of her!
The next time we meet her she tries putting a bullet through your skull out in the desert, after presumably killing numerous Soviets for no reason. Later on she tries driving a knife though a Diamond Dog's teeth and down his throat, an absolutely horrifying scene that is one of the most disturbing and seemingly unprovoked acts of violence I've seen in a game. Seriously, what the fuck. I think Kaz or Ocelot or someone speculates she was trying to kill someone she thinks is infected, but what a horribly sadistic way to "address" that problem.
I guess where I'm going with this is that while most people can't get past the pandering shots of the tits and ass (and trust me, I find those problematic, as well), for me it was the fact the game expected us to like this horrible murderer. That's what I found most unsettling.
It would've been better if there was some context for her actions. Give me some backstory that puts her actions in perspective. Maybe she doesn't really like killing people. Maybe some tragic turn of events in her life forced her to work for Skull Face (before she was set on fire and needed parasite therapy). Anything to explain her life as an assassin. I know people think assassins are "cool" in fiction, but I can't connect with them unless there's a reason for why they've become that way.
So yeah. This is probably the first time someone's complained about Quiet's character and it wasn't related to the horny depictions of her!
What female characters are regressive in the Witcher 3? You're not saying that just cause Geralt can have sex with prostitutes and other women? Cause characters like Ciri, Yen, Triss, and Cerys are faaaaaaaaaaaaaar from how shitty Quiet is designed.
It's not clear what those clips are about. But the scene we got is a good sendoff for Skull Face. Kojima talks in the guide about how the whole point of the way Skull Face dies is you're supposed to feel deprived of satisfaction. The message is there's no fulfillment in revenge — that revenge creates a restless "phantom pain" that will continue to haunt you once the target of your hate is gone. Kaz talks about this later, and Venom has the vision of Skull Face on Mother Base, suggesting that while they've had their revenge, they don't have a sense of peace. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, etc.
That restlessness, or phantom pain, is kind of the unifying theme of Ch. 2. I see it as a short story collection, a string of loosely connected incidents, or vignettes, where the characters try to find some sense of peace in the vacuum left by the villain. It's about how life went on after the conflict was resolved in Ch. 1, the characters experiencing paranoia about spies and traitors, dealing with tragedy along the way. It's the life Venom and his men earned for themselves...
And so I really think Ch. 2 should've been called "Peace," the originally planned name for Ch. 3. It would make a lot more sense as the Ch. 2 title. And when I say "Peace," I really mean the absence of it.
Like I said earlier, the game has an unconventional narrative structure where the conflict is resolved in the middle and the second half is extended falling action. It's a stark departure from how conflict is usually handled, but I found it interesting, regardless of whether it was the original plan for the story (something we'll never know beyond Mission 51 and a Ch. 3 title card).
Nah man, I said the same thing in my video. Her character makes no sense because she switches inconsistently from a killer capable of extreme acts of brutality with that of an innocent girl who enjoys playing in the rain and listening to pop music with her top off. It makes no sense. However, I will say that with the "knife scene" she wasn't trying to kill the Mother Base staff member but look down his throat to see if he was infected since it starts in the vocal cords. But, since she can't talk (or communicate in any other manner for "reasons") she has to resort to forcibly trying to open his mouth.
It kinda makes sense when you take into account the fact that Kojima's an alien that learnt about humanity by watching anime.
lol
To be fair, MGS usually does a good job of explaining why characters do what they do. It could've been a traumatic childhood experience, a thirst for revenge, being brainwashed into a human weapon, etc. There's usually something to explain why someone's a coldblooded killer. But with Quiet, we get nothing. :-\
Ultimately, I like her design and concept, I think she's a great gameplay mechanic, and I do find the sweet moments with her to be touching. But I think she'd be so much better if 1) the camera didn't always start with her tits or ass, and 2) they had context for how why she became a killer.
I feel a little better about that scene now, knowing she wasn't trying to kill him. But man, what an extreme way for her to check someone.
I quite like the story and structure of this game. Don't mean to sound like I'm hating everything. Just perplexed by Quiet's coldness.
Broken Joystick
At least you can talk. Who are you?
Not that I think it will ever happen, but hypothetically, if a Subsistence version was released a year from now, with the cut content now included, more Boss Fights, Mission 51 etc, would you buy it? Full price? The original game doesn't get patched.
I'd like to say no, but I know I'd only be kidding myself.
I'd like to say no, but I know I'd only be kidding myself.
Shin Kojima
Banned
I would probably buy it.
Unknown One
Member
I think MGS2 is the least sexualized MGS. Only thing close to being fanservice was Fortune, but she is tame in comparison to all the other females in the series.
MGS1 got Sniperwolf's cleavage and Meryl in undies.
MGS3 got Eva and her cleavage. Plus The Boss's cleavage.
MGS4 got Naomi's cleavage plus BB LaTeX skin tight suits with moaning.
MGS5 got tits and ass with Quiet.
MGS1 got Sniperwolf's cleavage and Meryl in undies.
MGS3 got Eva and her cleavage. Plus The Boss's cleavage.
MGS4 got Naomi's cleavage plus BB LaTeX skin tight suits with moaning.
MGS5 got tits and ass with Quiet.
Berserker976
Member
I'd like to know why she wants revenge against Venom Boss. I mean, we just sort of flopped around uselessly getting strangled while the bandaged guy did everything. Shouldn't she really just have a bone to pick with Bandage Face?
As for her being a ruthless killer, I was completely willing to overlook that. Big Boss has done way worse to way more people. It just seemed more savage in the hospital because of the ominous music and the framing, honestly.
Unknown One
Member
Nope, I already had enough of go stalk this guy, extract this guy, and shitty skull missions.
Only thing good about the game is mechanics and performance. Everything else made me want to replay MGS1-2.
SJRB
Gold Member
I'm trying to think of something horrible BB did where there wasn't a good reason to justify it. He certainly didn't take pleasure in hurting others. His acts of violence are generally acts of self-defense or taking out super-powered crazies who are hardly helpless.
To answer your question about why she had it out for Venom even though it was Ishmael who torched her... When we run into her in the desert, she's still working for Skull Face, so her goal is still to kill Big Boss, either then and there, or by bringing the English-language parasite back to Mother Base. So it was more a matter of her objective at the time.
Unknown One
Member
That's opposite of fan service to me, unless you are into that.
Olga armpit hair, how can you forget that?
It's actually meta-commentary on the anti-consumerism inherent in amiibo.
We're definitely deprived of a lot of context with Quiet, more than enough to go from 'enigmatic' to 'undercooked'. Combined with the glaring issues that drag down her presentation, what salvageable ideas might be buried in her concept fall apart in execution. There's hardly as much as a nationality or native language given for her, let alone a backstory; and overall it's less information to place her in the world than the interchangeable Beauty & Beast cut-outs.
Skullface had more of a concrete history and set of motivations, and he was deliberately intended to be someone whose identity had been long since taken from him.
Who would be left to develop this hypothetical expansion?
There was the female hostage who you could grope and stare up the skirt of before and after she's killed, but there's nothing similar that happens to the main characters.
Berserker976
Member
In MGS3 you could rip scientists' and maintenance workers' throats out with a goddamn fork. That's a bit worse than a garroting in my book.
I'd pay a nice price for Mission 51. There's not much else I want from the game, though. I might be in the minority but I think the current story structure works fine. Ch. 1 is a standalone adventure and Ch. 2 is a short story collection about trying to find peace in life after Skull Face -- the falling action after the conflict is resolved in Ch. 1. I used to think of Ch. 1 as a three-act play (Missions 1-12, 13-20, and 21-31), and Ch. 2 as an epilogue, but I've come to see them as fairly balanced in their own ways.
It's just Mission 51 that is obviously missing. I can ultimately deal with the dangling thread of the Eli subplot (the cutscene where he escapes was awesome), but I'd like to play the "Kingdom of the Flies" if they can find a way to finish it and release it.
But did BB do that as part of the MGS3 story? I don't remember that. I don't count things that are optional during gameplay, because obviously you can be sadistic as a player. You can play MGSV and go around slitting everyone's throat, but I don't think of that stuff as canon. The fact that these games penalize you for killing seems to suggest that the "canon" BB is one who takes no pleasure in killing and tries to avoid it wherever possible.
Berserker976
Member
I guess, but how is that different from what Quiet is doing? She takes out some people on her way to kill her target. That's basically what every protagonist does in a Metal Gear game. I didn't see her approaching the player slowly as some sort of sadistic act, I saw it as her approaching with caution because her target is a legendary soldier.
Obviously the real reason is that she does everything slowly to add dramatic tension, because if she actually acted like the professional assassin she's billed as, the game would have been over very quickly.
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