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[Shining Sunshine]

It really feels like Kojima knew it was his swan song and stuffed as much of his thoughts and themes into this game even if they made absolutely no sense for MGS.

Really brings down the quality though. Story is way more boring for an MGS game and Gameplay is pretty repetitive.

 

[Chinner]

Or you can look at it as someone who is competent having their potential recognized and then proving their greatness as Venom. So the meta-theme still works.

Not really. Solid Snake (the player) kills Venom Snake (the player) in MG1. This is Kojimas way of showing his dislike for the Metal Gear community.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

Big Medic isn't Big Boss. Eli is Big Boss's clone, not Big Medic's.

Oh I get that. But Venom Snake was supposed to believe he really was Big Boss. Ocelot was supposed to play into the ruse so even though the DNA didn't match I don't get why not tell him as if he was the real BB that Eli was his clone.

 

[Neiteio]

Not really. Solid Snake (the player) kills Venom Snake (the player) in MG1. This is Kojimas way of showing his dislike for the Metal Gear community.

I know you're joking, but to elaborate:

The idea is the Medic's background as "our best man" (BB's words) parallels the player's background in real-life as a virtual soldier. In real life, your experience is beating all of these different games. That's why it's consistent for the Medic, as the player's in-game avatar, to have an in-universe background of experience, as well. It's putting the player's qualities on the Medic, not saying the Medic's in-universe adventures were the scenarios of the past games.

 

[Zaph]

Oh I get that. But Venom Snake was supposed to believe he really was Big Boss. Ocelot was supposed to play into the ruse so even though the DNA didn't match I don't get why not tell him as if he was the real BB that Eli was his clone.

Ocelot went under self-hypnosis to truly believe Venom was BB (barring the fail safe). He didn't lie to Venom because he believed he had no reason to lie.

 

[Stereogatari]

Oh I get that. But Venom Snake was supposed to believe he really was Big Boss. Ocelot was supposed to play into the ruse so even though the DNA didn't match I don't get why not tell him as if he was the real BB that Eli was his clone.

I had the same thought, but just let it go because it's a neat narrative clue.

Also there's nothing to gain by saying the DNA result was positive. It's not like them saying they were negative causes a conflict in Venom's mind. He doesn't know whether it's true or not.

 

[sappyday]

I know you're joking, but to elaborate:

The idea is the Medic's background as "our best man" (BB's words) parallels the player's background in real-life as a virtual soldier. In real life, your experience is beating all of these different games. That's why it's consistent for the Medic, as the player's in-game avatar, to have an in-universe background of experience, as well. It's putting the player's qualities on the Medic, not saying the Medic's in-universe adventures were the scenarios of the past games.

Only works for those who have played every game I guess. Anyone who started with MGSV cannot relate. Also like I said before, it excludes female players.

 

[Palpable]

The whole meta narrative is dumb and it cheapens the canon. It shouldn't exist.

 

[Alienous]

The whole meta narrative is dumb and it cheapens the canon. It shouldn't exist.

The two should rarely mix.

A player avatar, like Raiden or any of the Assassin's Creed animus puppets, work better than trying to shoehorn "You, the player, are the character" into a narrative, particularly one that has an established canon.

In MGSV it has just caused a warping and bending of the plot to allow for it. Here's the twist, and the things we couldn't explain satisfyingly have the blanket explanation of hypnotherapy.

Then there's things like not accounting for female players that just leaves me feeling cold to the entire thing. It's weak, and I imagine you have to want to like it to do so.

 

[Chinner]

The two should rarely mix.

A player avatar, like Raiden or any of the Assassin's Creed animus puppets, work better than trying to shoehorn "You, the player, are the character" into a narrative, particularly one that has an established canon.

In MGSV it has just caused a warping and bending of the plot to allow for it. Here's the twist, and the things we couldn't explain satisfyingly have the blanket explanation of hypnotherapy.

Then there's things like not accounting for female players that just leaves me feeling cold to the entire thing. It's weak, and I imagine you have to want to like it to do so.

don't you understanding?

the boys can pretend they're big boss.

the girls can pretend they're quiet.

kojima has accounted for everyone, what more do you want?

 

[Chariot]

don't you understanding?

the boys can pretend they're big boss.

the girls can pretend they're quiet.

kojima has accounted for everyone, what more do you want?

And the hungarians can pretend they're Skullface.

 

[digitaldiatribe]

Hamburgers can continue to be hamburgers of course.

 

[Shin Kojima]

The soldiers on motherbase seem to know you're Venom after you find out yourself.

"Boss, whoever you are, I only take orders from you."

 

[Alex_Mexico]

Ocelot went under self-hypnosis to truly believe Venom was BB (barring the fail safe). He didn't lie to Venom because he believed he had no reason to lie.

I forgot about that. I guess you're right! Why couldnt he just play along? Thats an incredibly contrived and needlessly dangerous way of oing about working with Venom Snake. And what was the fail safe and who was going to activate it.

Did Miller went though self hypnosis too or was it just Ocelot?

 

[digitaldiatribe]

I forgot about that. I guess you're right! Why couldnt he just play along? Thats an incredibly contrived and needlessly dangerous way of oing about working with Venom Snake. And what was the fail safe and who was going to activate it.

Did Miller went though self hypnosis too or was it just Ocelot?

Just Ocelot. Miller didn't know until after the reveal. It's why he hates Big Boss in the end after being put in the dark and supports Solid Snake.

 

[Alienous]

The soldiers on motherbase seem to know you're Venom after you find out yourself.

"Boss, whoever you are, I only take orders from you."

And the rumour never left Mother Base

The end.

 

[valkyre]

Let me start off by saying that I do understand how people can be disappointed (storywise) with this game. And I accept it, and in quite a few parts agree with most comments, especially the presentation (the episode thing with the credits is meh) and pacing.

Ofcourse cut content is one of a lot of people's grudges as well. Game for a lot of people feels unfinished and needed that mission 51. And I agree. The game needed mission 51. And we all know that the reason probably is Konami-Kojima feud that prevented it. But I am glad that in a way I experienced in some form the conclusion to one story arc that was left unfinished.

My post though is not about explaining what I find wrong or right in people's disappointment. My post is more about deja vu...

Its 2001. I have a brand new PS2 which I bought especially for MGS2. The game that back then, I -and a lot of others- believe it to be the LAST MGS game ever made by Kojima. Back then we believed it. Because it was the first time he ever said it. So we were all prepared for an epic ride.

-let me put a disclaimer now just for the sake of good order, I LOVE MGS2 and I loved it when I first played it, not after 10 years have passed like a lot of people -

Its finally november 2001, the year of the SNAKE and I pick up my copy. Game gets ecstatic reviews and the hype train is pulling 700+ mph... I go home, start the game, finish the tanker mission and then my jaw hits the floor so hard that it takes 3 hours to manage to pull it together.

"WTF is going on?"

I press on with the game, when suddenly I am greeted with new elements of MGS Saga:

"LALILULELO" or otherwise know as "PATRIOTS"

The game proceeds to speak in great lengths about the Patriots. A faceless organization of the most powerful people who in some way control the fate of the world. Its as vague as fuck. And you dont know anything about who or what the Patriots actually are. Patriots this, Patriots that, Patriots Patriots Patriots...

And then come the final moments of the game.

Some wierd A.I. appear to be in control, and what you thought your mission was, Ocelot says it actually wasnt, and then the AIs say that what Ocelot thought actually isnt and... you get the idea.

What were those AIs?
What are the Patriots?
Who are they?
and a ton of other questions explode in everyone's brain.

Then comes the ending. And what was the ending?

Liquid Ocelot hijacking Ray and shouting "I'm off to finish Patriots for good!". Then you get a disk that supposedly has information about the Patriots. But you never see the contents of that disk... Snake gives the torch to Raiden, leaves and credits roll. Patriots are dead for a 100 years is the last thing you hear. BOOM

Wait what?

Now remember the situation again: we think, we absolutely believe, that we are playing Kojima's last MGS game. EVER.

And it ends with leaving almost everything hanging in the air. We dont know who or what the Patriots are, we dont know what exactly the AIs are , hell we arent even sure wtf this whole mission was about. And everything ends in a cliffhanger. And we believe that, that's it.

People of course raged and raged for years. They considered this game a huge mess of incoherent brainstorming from Kojima. And a lot still do to this day. But a lot of people who thought that way about MGS2 back in the day, now, after many years they finaly started to appreciate it more. Some even consider it the "gospel" in the Saga.

This whole thing -and pardon the huge post- is extremely deja vu with MGSV for me. I think a lot of people are mad for its shortcomings (and I can understand that just I understood it back then with MGS2) , but once the dust has settled I think there is going to be a similar reaction to MGS2 for quite a few people.

Its all very reminiscent with what happened with that game.

Peace (that chapter 3 you never got )

 

[Zaph]

I forgot about that. I guess you're right! Why couldnt he just play along? Thats an incredibly contrived and needlessly dangerous way of oing about working with Venom Snake. And what was the fail safe and who was going to activate it.

Did Miller went though self hypnosis too or was it just Ocelot?

No, Miller wasn't hypnotised. Apparently they felt it was okay to lead along an obviously bitter and severely unhinged person. Of course that won't backfire.

I don't think they ever explained what Ocelot's fail-safe was, just that he would "know" who the real BB is. I guess it doesn't matter, as when Venom received the tapes he told everyone (given the base soldier reactions)?

Just Ocelot. Miller didn't know until after the reveal. It's why he hates Big Boss in the end after being put in the dark and supports Solid Snake.

I really didn't understand this conversation between Ocelot and Miller. I guess it was just some ham fisted exposition to explain why Ocelot follows Liquid?

 

[The Silver]

The whole meta narrative is dumb and it cheapens the canon. It shouldn't exist.

I really don't like how it went back on MGS2. We aren't Snake we, we arent Big Boss(who wants to be some guy he gets burned up by a spray can anyway?) and we aren't his best man. The last time the series inserted us in the canon with Raiden the whole game was about kicking us out of the canon and telling us to go home and be family men.

This twist shouldn't have been in an MGS game.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

Just Ocelot. Miller didn't know until after the reveal. It's why he hates Big Boss in the end after being put in the dark and supports Solid Snake.

Im a hardcore MGS fan who has played multiple times every game (except PW which I beat once) and not even I get confused as shit. I can't even begin to imagine more casual fans.

 

[semiconscious]

It's symbolic and it works well...

this's very likely the same thing that ocelot was repeating over'n'over as he hypnotized himself ...

 

[Permanently A]

This has probably already been asked but its seriously bugging me

why did Quiet never pick up a sheet of paper and write anything? like the scene where she tries to stab a soldier in his mouth, why didn't she just write on a paper "these guys are infected with a parasite in their vocal cords"

 

[Alienous]

this's very likely the same thing that ocelot was repeating over'n'over as he hypnotized himself ...

lol

 

[digitaldiatribe]

I really didn't understand this conversation between Ocelot and Miller. I guess it was just some ham fisted exposition to explain why Ocelot follows Liquid?

That's how I took it. Ocelot just outright says it with no preamble. But why Miller hates Big Boss makes simple enough sense. Miller wanted to build something with Big Boss, but he goes off to build his true will while Miller is left behind from the beginning. He even goes to Zero to protect Big Boss during his coma. That was devotion that was cast aside.

Im a hardcore MGS fan who has played multiple times every game (except PW which I beat once) and not even I get confused as shit. I can't even begin to imagine more casual fans.

They should have used more 3 and PW stuff to explain some things. New players wouldn't even know what to make of the AI pod without previous knowledge.

 

[Rymuth]

this's very likely the same thing that ocelot was repeating over'n'over as he hypnotized himself ...

Haha.

 

[Stealth_Cobra]

That's how I took it. Ocelot just outright says it with no preamble. But why Miller hates Big Boss makes simple enough sense. Miller wanted to build something with Big Boss, but he goes off to build his true will while Miller is left behind from the beginning. He even goes to Zero to protect Big Boss during his coma. That was devotion that was cast aside.

They should have used more 3 and PW stuff to explain some things. New players wouldn't even know what to make of the AI pod without previous knowledge.

Honestly, if I was Big Boss, I probably would left Miller on the bench too, especially considering he knew about Galvez , Paz, and was cooperating with Zero undercover in Peace Walker. Those kind of "initiatives" Big Boss probably did not want for his new base.

 

[Berserker976]

*snip*

This whole thing -and pardon the huge post- is extremely deja vu with MGSV for me. I think a lot of people are mad for its shortcomings (and I can understand that just I understood it back then with MGS2) , but once the dust has settled I think there is going to be a similar reaction to MGS2 for quite a few people.

Its all very reminiscent with what happened with that game.

Peace (that chapter 3 you never got )

So, I get what you're going for here, and a lot of people have argued roughly the same thing. But, even speaking fundamentally, there are reasons why this will not be the case.

I'll preface this by saying that MGS2 is also one of my favorite games of all time, I'd rank it at the top of the Metal Gear series.

That being said, MGSV is no MGS2.

One of the reasons MGS2 was studied for so long after it came out was because people finished the game feeling confused. MGS2 is an incredibly dense game. It's full of exposition, heady ideas, character development, and meta-narrative.

In contrast, MGSV is disappointingly sparse. It lacks the complexity, the characters, and the interesting plot that the series is famous for. When MGSV ends you don't feel like you were just bombarded with ideas like at the end of MGS2, you just feel let down and a bit insulted.

 

[BadWolf]

I forgot about that. I guess you're right! Why couldnt he just play along? Thats an incredibly contrived and needlessly dangerous way of oing about working with Venom Snake. And what was the fail safe and who was going to activate it.

It's the other way around actually, it's so much easier when the parties involved actually believe. The plan would have a much higher rate of success this way with everyone giving it their all.

And there's always the possibility of being caught. See what happened with Paz and what the consequences were for Zero.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

MGS2 and MGSV have the same level of meta-twist, but the narrative surrounding MGS2 was much more dense, coherent, and well paced. MGS2's twist also made some extremely poignant social commentary on ideas that were just beginning to emerge at the time, whereas MGSV's twist has no deeper meaning beyond "You are the Big Boss! Thank you for playing!" I doubt time will be any kinder to MGSV than it's being treated right now. People's issues extend beyond the twist and into the sparse and badly paced narrative. V's problems are timeless.

Edit:

So, I get what you're going for here, and a lot of people have argued roughly the same thing. But, even speaking fundamentally, there are reasons why this will not be the case.

I'll preface this by saying that MGS2 is also one of my favorite games of all time, I'd rank it at the top of the Metal Gear series.

That being said, MGSV is no MGS2.

One of the reasons MGS2 was studied for so long after it came out was because people finished the game feeling confused. MGS2 is an incredibly dense game. It's full of exposition, heady ideas, character development, and meta-narrative.

In contrast, MGSV is disappointingly sparse. It lacks the complexity, the characters, and the interesting plot that the series is famous for. When MGSV ends you don't feel like you were just bombarded with ideas like at the end of MGS2, you just feel let down and a bit insulted.

Basically agreeing with this

 

[Sevket-Erhat]

Let me start off by saying that I do understand how people can be disappointed (storywise) with this game. And I accept it, and in quite a few parts agree with most comments, especially the presentation (the episode thing with the credits is meh) and pacing.

Ofcourse cut content is one of a lot of people's grudges as well. Game for a lot of people feels unfinished and needed that mission 51. And I agree. The game needed mission 51. And we all know that the reason probably is Konami-Kojima feud that prevented it. But I am glad that in a way I experienced in some form the conclusion to one story arc that was left unfinished.

My post though is not about explaining what I find wrong or right in people's disappointment. My post is more about deja vu...

Its 2001. I have a brand new PS2 which I bought especially for MGS2. The game that back then, I -and a lot of others- believe it to be the LAST MGS game ever made by Kojima. Back then we believed it. Because it was the first time he ever said it. So we were all prepared for an epic ride.

-let me put a disclaimer now just for the sake of good order, I LOVE MGS2 and I loved it when I first played it, not after 10 years have passed like a lot of people -

Its finally november 2001, the year of the SNAKE and I pick up my copy. Game gets ecstatic reviews and the hype train is pulling 700+ mph... I go home, start the game, finish the tanker mission and then my jaw hits the floor so hard that it takes 3 hours to manage to pull it together.

"WTF is going on?"

I press on with the game, when suddenly I am greeted with new elements of MGS Saga:

"LALILULELO" or otherwise know as "PATRIOTS"

The game proceeds to speak in great lengths about the Patriots. A faceless organization of the most powerful people who in some way control the fate of the world. Its as vague as fuck. And you dont know anything about who or what the Patriots actually are. Patriots this, Patriots that, Patriots Patriots Patriots...

And then come the final moments of the game.

Some wierd A.I. appear to be in control, and what you thought your mission was, Ocelot says it actually wasnt, and then the AIs say that what Ocelot thought actually isnt and... you get the idea.

What were those AIs?
What are the Patriots?
Who are they?
and a ton of other questions explode in everyone's brain.

Then comes the ending. And what was the ending?

Liquid Ocelot hijacking Ray and shouting "I'm off to finish Patriots for good!". Then you get a disk that supposedly has information about the Patriots. But you never see the contents of that disk... Snake gives the torch to Raiden, leaves and credits roll. Patriots are dead for a 100 years is the last thing you hear. BOOM

Wait what?

Now remember the situation again: we think, we absolutely believe, that we are playing Kojima's last MGS game. EVER.

And it ends with leaving almost everything hanging in the air. We dont know who or what the Patriots are, we dont know what exactly the AIs are , hell we arent even sure wtf this whole mission was about. And everything ends in a cliffhanger. And we believe that, that's it.

People of course raged and raged for years. They considered this game a huge mess of incoherent brainstorming from Kojima. And a lot still do to this day. But a lot of people who thought that way about MGS2 back in the day, now, after many years they finaly started to appreciate it more. Some even consider it the "gospel" in the Saga.

This whole thing -and pardon the huge post- is extremely deja vu with MGSV for me. I think a lot of people are mad for its shortcomings (and I can understand that just I understood it back then with MGS2) , but once the dust has settled I think there is going to be a similar reaction to MGS2 for quite a few people.

Its all very reminiscent with what happened with that game.

Peace (that chapter 3 you never got )

That's why Metal Gear Solid 2 is the worst game of the series and at the bottom of my list

 

[Palpable]

Probably already posted, but this is a good watch.

 

[Spaghetti]

Between MGS4 and MGSV:

- Wants Metal Gear to be more kid-friendly, looks at Monster Hunter, decides MGS5 should be on PSP. Konami begs him to keep it on a console, but he insists this is going to be worth it. They at least convince him not to name it MGS5. Konami goes in hard on marketing, game is a huge flop in the west where MGS4 was most successful.

- Kojima Productions gets an action Raiden game greenlit, the first time Metal Gear goes multiplatform. Kojima tasks his team to make the game while he works on Peace Walker. They have a lot of ideas, Kojima pens a story for it, and they create a demo for the Microsoft conference. Turns out the demo is all lies and the game basically never existed in this form. After about two years of faffing about and not coming close to this, Konami and Kojima Productions cancel the project. Konami taps Platinum to pick it up and reboot it inside of 15 months. Kojima appears to harbor some professional dislike of the game.

- Kojima thinks the 3DS is cool, begins a 3DS remake for it. The demo is playable at E3 2010, runs well and looks good. Kojima loses interest in the project and diverts funding to work on...

- The NGP is announced by Sony. Kojima immediately falls in love, Konami isn't keen because of Peace Walker. Kojima assures them that it will be fine and includes the NGP in his specs for FOX Engine. A major part of Konami's E3 Digital Event is dedicated to Kojima explaining transfarring with MGS HD and ZOE HD to the NGP because he was sure taking console games on portables was going to be huge. Vita fails to light the world on fire and ZOE HD is subsequently cancelled.

- Avi Arad introduces Kojima to Keifer Sutherland. Kojima moves heaven and Earth to get him as Snake. Kojima starts spending money like water, commissioning lots of music and then throwing it away because he doesn't think it fits, but still paying in full for it.

- Kojima uses his english twitter to boast about how he is asking Shinkawa to make a character more erotic because he wants to see women cosplay her, seemingly completely ignorant of the changing tides going on in the video game industry.

There's probably more that I'm forgetting.

i thought this thread was going off the deep end when people were proclaiming ground zeroes was the better game. seems we've gone even deeper down the rabbit hole.

a lot of the stuff here is based on a.) things we don't know, and b.) things that are outright lies, especially regarding rising.

 

[Palpable]

i thought this thread was going off the deep end when people were proclaiming ground zeroes was the better game. seems we've gone even deeper down the rabbit hole.

a lot of the stuff here is based on a.) things we don't know, and b.) things that are outright lies, especially regarding rising.

Ground Zeroes is the better game. The deep end is proclaiming the bullshit that is TPP is a good/coherent story.

 

[Zaph]

I really don't like how it went back on MGS2. We aren't Snake we, we arent Big Boss(who wants to be some guy he gets burned up by a spray can anyway?) and we aren't his best man. The last time the series inserted us in the canon with Raiden the whole game was about kicking us out of the canon and telling us to go home and be family men.

This twist shouldn't have been in an MGS game.

A player avatar, like Raiden or any of the Assassin's Creed animus puppets, work better than trying to shoehorn "You, the player, are the character" into a narrative, particularly one that has an established canon.

I only watched a MGS2 play-though and never looked into the lore/behind the scenes. Was Raiden supposed to be some meta commentary in that game?

 

[Death Metalist]

i thought this thread was going off the deep end when people were proclaiming ground zeroes was the better game. seems we've gone even deeper down the rabbit hole.

a lot of the stuff here is based on a.) things we don't know, and b.) things that are outright lies, especially regarding rising.

That's when I stopped taking people's opinion seriously. People are damn salty they aren't playing as BB lol, I mean I kind of see where they are coming from but man dem reactions. MGS2 all over again.

Edit: And you know what's funny? is that MGS2 was not considered to be great or a classic until many years have passed on and only when a few individuals started analyzing everything within the game then writing about it or doing videos about it. Only after that happened it began being hailed as some genius game, which it is but it didn't happen until light years later. Then you got people who still think MGS2's story and all is shit, which is also fine. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Kazuhira]

What are the odds that they're still working to finish ch3?

 

[Chariot]

What are the odds that they're still working to finish ch3?

You should play the lottery for better odds.

 

[Dick Justice]

That's when I stopped taking people's opinion seriously. People are damn salty they aren't playing as BB lol, I mean I kind of see where they are coming from but man dem reactions. MGS2 all over again.

Rather simplistic take on people's arguments. Actually kinda insulting when you consider that people have made genuinely good arguments regarding the quality of the story in this one.

 

[Spaghetti]

Ground Zeroes is the better game. The deep end is proclaiming the bullshit that is TPP is a good/coherent story.

i did a lot of defending of ground zeroes of being more than the paid demo people were calling it, but c'mon son. that's not true, that's not true in the slightest. ground zeroes is a cut off tpp with less features and less variety.

i don't even see why you bring up tpp's story in relation to my post either.

seriously, this thread has gotten weird. it went from jumping at shadows over cut content, to this weird idea that kojima is an evil malevolent bastard and that konami is a battered housewife.

 

[akidnamededdy]

I know you're joking, but to elaborate:

The idea is the Medic's background as "our best man" (BB's words) parallels the player's background in real-life as a virtual soldier. In real life, your experience is beating all of these different games. That's why it's consistent for the Medic, as the player's in-game avatar, to have an in-universe background of experience, as well. It's putting the player's qualities on the Medic, not saying the Medic's in-universe adventures were the scenarios of the past games.

Big Boss's given name in the games (as far as I can remember) is John Doe. An obvious alias, so it could be that he's an orphan who doesn't know his real name, or he's just never given it to anybody yet.

Couldn't the effect you're taking about above also be attained by, say, pulling an MGS2 (since this game is already trying painfully hard to be the next MGS2) and having Big Boss pull out his dog tags at the end, only to show the player's own name and birthday?

Wouldn't that have the same effect while also A) attributing Big Boss's earlier exploits to the player's own skills as well, B) make this game feel like less of a waste of time in the canon, and C) not screw with the canon nearly as badly as the idea of having two Big Bosses running around for a decade?

The whole thing just seems poorly thought out and amateurish.

That's when I stopped taking people's opinion seriously. People are damn salty they aren't playing as BB lol, I mean I kind of see where they are coming from but man dem reactions. MGS2 all over again.

The difference is that MGS2 ended up being genius. After playing everything that was released after 3, though, I'm willing to chalk that up to sheer luck on Kojima's part.

 

[LiK]

Don't forget female players are excluded, but don't worry, surely Kojima makes it up by having a strong female chara-

ohh

i think Quiet is a pretty strong character. her biggest enemy is the camera.

I only watched a MGS2 play-though and never looked into the lore/behind the scenes. Was Raiden supposed to be some meta commentary in that game?

MGS2 was supposed to be "haha, don't trust all digital information given to you" aka the marketing of the game before it came out.

 

[Death Metalist]

Rather simplistic take on people's arguments. Actually kinda insulting when you consider that people have made genuinely good arguments regarding the quality of the story in this one.

When I come across comments saying COD has a better story,GZ offers more than TPP.etc that's when I just can't take people's(some) opinion seriously. The story is alright compared to other MGS games but compared to most games? It's good but only because of it's ideas/themes, save for the terrible pacing. The execution is not all there for sure but it's a very interesting game story wise than many games I have played.

The difference is that MGS2 ended up being genius. After playing everything that was released after 3, though, I'm willing to chalk that up to sheer luck on Kojima's part.

Yes and it didn't end up being genius until a few people started analyzing everything within the game, make long ass posts and videos about it. I'm not saying the same is going to happen with MGS5 BUT MGS2 didn't reach that status until many years later and only after the fact.

Edit: Valkyre's post actually seems like what most people felt like after MGS2 ended.

 

[LiK]

Yes and it didn't end up being genius until a few people started analyzing everything within the game, make long ass posts and videos about it. I'm not saying the same is going to happen with MGS5 BUT MGS2 didn't reach that status until many years later and only after the fact.

this is true. I still consider MGS2 to be one of the worst in the series for the bait and switch. Sure, I understood what Kojima is doing now but when it came out, it was the most confusing shit ever. this is coming off the more straightforward story of MGS1. The Raiden and Rose conversations were also fucking idiotic. I didn't like Raiden until MGS4.

 

[Spaghetti]

That's when I stopped taking people's opinion seriously. People are damn salty they aren't playing as BB lol, I mean I kind of see where they are coming from but man dem reactions. MGS2 all over again.

Edit: And you know what's funny? is that MGS2 was not considered to be great or a classic until many years have passed on and only when a few individuals started analyzing everything within the game then writing about it or doing videos about it. Only after that happened it began being hailed as some genius game, which it is but it didn't happen until light years later. Then you got people who still think MGS2's story and all is shit, which is also fine. Different strokes for different folks.

i mean, i wouldn't say the backlash is the same as mgs2, as mgs2 was misunderstood while mgsv does have legitimate issues, but it seems like people are really, really reaching to treat mgsv like irredeemable trash and putting ideas about kojima out there that aren't supported by facts. like how he doesn't like rising or something, or that getting platinum for rising was konami's idea.

if we all remember back to the re-reveal of rising, the behind the scenes video that was released with it states it was kojima who floated the idea to platinum. kojima also did a lot of press for rising and was very supportive of it. basing the idea that he doesn't like it on fluff randomised dialogue from the deja vu mission is bullshit.

then we've got things like bullshit claims kojima personally defunded the mgs3 3ds port, or that he 'moved heaven and earth' to get kiefer sutherland.

 

[NoctisVsStar]

MGS1 and MGS2 are tied for goat.

 

[Demoskinos]

Finished the Mission 45 extraction objective. Am I alone in thinking that is by far the hardest thing in the game? Cause man....I tried various things for an upwards of two and a half hours.

Finally got it though. Just need to make my damn nuke and capture like 8 more animals. And I'll have my Platinum.

 

[Zombie James]

Edit: Wroooong thread.

 

[LiK]

Finished the Mission 45 extraction objective. Am I alone in thinking that is by far the hardest thing in the game? Cause man....I tried various things for an upwards of two and a half hours.

Finally got it though. Just need to make my damn nuke and capture like 8 more animals. And I'll have my Platinum.

that mission was just pure bullshit. the inability to return to ACC at all the first time you're forced into it was an awful decision. I didn't find it super hard, only took a few retries but man, not being able to return for your loadouts like the rest of the game was a bummer.

 

[Clear]

Rather simplistic take on people's arguments. Actually kinda insulting when you consider that people have made genuinely good arguments regarding the quality of the story in this one.

Insulting?

I think how people are so sensitive about others dismissing their opinions is a very strong sign of how irrational and emotive the discussion is around this game.

 

[valkyre]

So, I get what you're going for here, and a lot of people have argued roughly the same thing. But, even speaking fundamentally, there are reasons why this will not be the case.

I'll preface this by saying that MGS2 is also one of my favorite games of all time, I'd rank it at the top of the Metal Gear series.

That being said, MGSV is no MGS2.

One of the reasons MGS2 was studied for so long after it came out was because people finished the game feeling confused. MGS2 is an incredibly dense game. It's full of exposition, heady ideas, character development, and meta-narrative.

In contrast, MGSV is disappointingly sparse. It lacks the complexity, the characters, and the interesting plot that the series is famous for. When MGSV ends you don't feel like you were just bombarded with ideas like at the end of MGS2, you just feel let down and a bit insulted.

I understand your disappointment but I cant say I fully agree, especially at the "insulted" part which I believe you said it sarcastically more, rather than literally. But you can be sure a lot of people considered MGS2 "insulting"" believing that this was the final Metal Gear and they now have to make sense of it, when the game left almost everything completely vague in its ending. Not until MGS3 and MGS4 were released, was until MGS2 became to make sense and earn the respect and the approval of a lot of people who hated the game before.

While MGSV is certainly not as complex and confusing as MGS2 was, it was never supposed to be confusing. It cant be confusing, the period in which the game takes place doesnt give much room for Kojima to offer something like MGS2 as far as the topic we are discussing. MGSV didnt aim to confuse, imho it aimed at completing a full circle and what I liked about MGSV is that it has ripple effects towards the entire saga and characters in various ways. You come out of MGSV and you now realise in a sense what really went on with Big Boss and Venom Snake. Who was the villain and who died, how he ended up with 2 fortresses, how he came back to life and how operation intrude came to be.

You come off MGSV and you get a new perspective of the characters you met throughout the saga and the opinion you had about them. You get a sense of how much Hal was similar, yet different to his rather asshole dad. His acts in all previous MGS become even more heroic after you see what his father was.

You see how Ocelot's loyalty to Big Boss had him starting to mess with hypnosis and all that stuff to convince himself that Venom is BB and then become liquid through the same operation.

Or how Zero got sick and even then tried as hell to keep BB alive because he still believed he can mend his relationship with him.

And then there is Miller and the other characters that had ripple effects throught the series.

Apart from mission 51 the game imho does a good job of tying things up.

Yes the presentation lacks, and the pacing is really bad. But I believe this was inevitable due to the mission structured gameplay decision that Kojima made at the beginning. And yes tapes are the new codec and while it is a lot of times boring, it does offer a lot of important story info.

My point is I get the disappointment and the frustration, but I believe most of it is coming from the initial explosion. Once the dust settles in, and people start watching what each game does for the entirety of the story we call MGS saga, they will perhaps appreciate it more for what it is, and not for what people hoped or wanted it to be. Just like MGS2.

One thing I really appreciated in MGSV is the way the plot twist incorporates the player into the Saga by breaking the 4th wall. Its not like I wasnt expecting the twist. But the way it was handled, I appreciated it, hearing Kojima in a sense telling me that I am a part of MGS Saga and thanking me for all the years we were together on this trip. It was a glimpse of his genius, to me.

Am I fully happy with MGSV narrative? No, of course not, in fact I have a lot of objections myself and I enjoyed other MGS games more than V in terms of story. And certainly this is not some grade A writing, but it is not the "trash" people make it sound to be either. The core of its story fits, makes sense concerning the timeline, ties up quite a few things that were forever remaining a mystery and provides a decent send off by saying a big thank you Valkyre/Big Boss.

PS: Something that I type after every MGS is finished. This game, like MGS4 and all other MGS games established beforehand, really exposes Solid Snake as the ultimate Snake. As the one who didnt succumb to his genes, memes and vengeance. He was the weakest Snake genetically, but the strongest in heart and spirit. He was the one who suffered the accumulation of what his father/brothers had to suffer, and yet he was the one to keep going forward, to remain pure, to keep fighting not for his ego or personal goal, but the greater good. MGSV like all previous MGS games is , in a meta-way, an ode to Solid Snake. The best of them all.

Edit: for a few typos and the PS.