Support NeoGAF

[KOMANI]

A C-section scar does not actually go to the breasts.

The Boss' scar was just an excuse to have her open her uniform.

I know. I'm a c-section baby! Born on the battlefield.... Meaow!

 

[Roni]

Ehh. Zanzibarland had some pretty terrible things going on. Big Boss needed to be stopped.

We just have no idea how he got to the point where "child soldiers and nuclear weapons yolo" was a viable plan for him.

Hence why bad guys is in quotes.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

A C-section scar does not actually go to the breasts.

The Boss' scar was just an excuse to have her open her uniform.

Ocelot had a huge head.

 

[Broken Joystick]

Ocelot had a huge head.

He started Doublethink at an early age.

 

[eso76]

Don't agree with the statement the story has no theme. It's in the freaking Chapter title for crying out loud.

Venom takes Big Boss' persona and quickly degenerates into a mindless mercenary who would take on any job (Side Ops) for money (GMP) in order to pursue Cipher (Missions). You, Kaz and Ocelot quickly turn on old partners and each other as paranoia sets in and you start wondering who enabled the strike on MSF 9 years ago. You don't even oppose to 'interrogating' defenseless people (Huey), your closest friends (Quiet) and even Children (Eli).

Your hasty actions aimed at getting revenge cause harm to others, sometimes as much harm as the people you're trying to kill. It is Diamong Dogs that let the Vocal Cord Parasites loose onto Africa after Cipher isolates them by contaminating the river. And no matter how much good you try to do (caring for the children you take from the battlefield) your actions speak louder than your intentions and it becomes easy for your image to be warped and bent into people believing you yourself is the villain (Eli fooling the kids into rebelling by staging the death of one of them). Your quest for revenge even brought you to accept a sociopath into your mix, just because he could fix you up with a few new toys.

And when you do get revenge on your target, what then? You've hurt and violated so many other people in your path that what other fate is left for you other than becoming the target for someone else's revenge? And could you have really eliminated the 'enemy'? What if it still lurks around, a shadow of its former self just waiting to re-emerge at the smallest opportunity... The paranoia leads you to cannibalize your own men and their trust. Turning your private army into a fascist state complete with sign posts of "Big Boss is Watching You".



Another fair point and the main reason this story is so interesting. It could be removed from the game, but then a considerable about of meanings would be left inverted, warped and incorrect. The fact this game didn't need to exist and yet can completely change how you interpret the latter half of the timeline is genius.

Unjunior this poster.

 

[BadWolf]

I'm trying to find that reference to Miller training Snake and can't find it. I'll look into MGS codec conversations next. Maybe I'll find something.

From Miller's wiki:

As "McDonell" Miller, he later served as a survival instructor for the SAS, the Green Berets, a U.S. Marine boot camp, and eventually FOXHOUND.[2] He also went on to volunteer as a coach in a mercenary school twice a year before his retirement.[2] During his time as a drill sergeant in FOXHOUND, he was referred to as "Hell Master" and draftees called him "Master Miller" with the utmost respect.[2] It was at FOXHOUND's training camp that he met Solid Snake.[64] Miller also got married to a woman named Nadine, whom he would later divorce.[2] At some point, he fathered a daughter named Catherine, and by 1999, resided in Los Angeles with her.[2]

 

[LiK]

I wanted dead kids...I didn't see any dead kids

That kid you were supposed to save died.

 

[ElFly]

Ehh. Zanzibarland had some pretty terrible things going on. Big Boss needed to be stopped.

We just have no idea how he got to the point where "child soldiers and nuclear weapons yolo" was a viable plan for him.

For all the hour that Big Boss talks in MGS4, and all the exploration of obscure plot points that happens in PW and MGS5, we never really get an explanation on the plan of Big Boss to flush out the Patriot AIs.

 

[KOMANI]

Along with Fukushima, KAKU, Blaustein... I want to throw Shinta Nojiri on the list of Metal Gear unsung heroes. He was the director of Ghost Babel, level designed the Tanker mission, and helped finish Act 3 on Metal Gear Solid 4.
Here's an interview where he says his ex bosses wanted more Metal Gear (he left KojimaPro after MGS 4)
http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/metalgear/shintanojiri.htm

 

[Reebot]

Whatever Kojima does next, I really, really hope he has a co-writer that says no to him.

I wonder what The Boss would have been like if Kojima were without Fukushima completely.

If nothing else, MGS V makes it abundantly clear that Kojima without a filter shouldn't write games.

 

[Neiteio]

That breathy little orgasmic gasp Quiet makes as she pops up on the sortie prep screen, boobs a-jigglin'

 

[Unknown One]

#TeamFukushima

His absence was a void that couldn't be filled. He was the Codec writer for MGS2 and MGS3. It makes sense that those became trash after his departure.

 

[brau]

If nothing else, MGS V makes it abundantly clear that Kojima without a filter shouldn't write games.

+1

Kojima might have the raw creative insight, as well as beats. But he just doesn't know how to make a cohesive narrative that is tied all together.

 

[eso76]

Campbell: So I can't help but notice you look identical to Benedict "Kazuhira" Miller, the co-founder of two known terrorist organizations.

Miller: No, that's my brother. I'm McDonnell Miller.

Campbell: Good enough for me.

Miller: Also call me Kaz.

Campbell: Odd request, but sure.

Well, I can see how Campbell would be tricked

That's what master Miller looked like in MG2, before they had to make him look like someone liquid could easily disguise as...

His absence was a void that couldn't be filled. He was the Codec writer for MGS2 and MGS3. It makes sense that those became trash after his departure.

I don't know, I think mgs3 was a much easier story to write. It was almost like starting anew.
Writing stories that fit in the ever growing mess the saga has been getting must have been exponentially harder with each game.

 

[KOMANI]

#TeamFukushima

His absence was a void that couldn't be filled. He was the Codec writer for MGS2 and MGS3. It makes sense that those became trash after his departure.

And solid 1. The departure of Fukushima ultimately lead to the death of the codec.

 

[Reebot]

+1

Kojima might have the raw creative insight, as well as beats. But he just doesn't know how to make a cohesive narrative that is tied all together.

The unchallenged auteur problem: everyone needs someone to tell us when our ideas suck.

 

[WrenchNinja]

I never watched any of the trailers and I didn't like the twist. It has little to do with not playing as Big Boss (though I'll admit some consternation at how it was advertised that way) and a lot to do with how badly it was written.

- There's no build up to it. At all. And it still managed to be predictable, but mostly because it was poorly done. You go from the radiation leak -> Quiet leaves -> OH MY GOD YOU'RE NOT BIG BOSS did you rike it. It would be like if Solid Snake and Otacon were mourning Sniper Wolf, then Liquid came down in Rex, then during the fight Naomi called to mention that she really hates Snake for killing her brother.

- This revelation is only a twist because the game just lies to you. What a bad way to do a plot twist and Kojima did it because he knew how obvious it was. Why is "Truth" different from the prologue? Was there any indication you were going through a poorly-summoned memory at the time? Why is everything between the bed and the ambulance identical? If the memory was corrupted because of trauma or injury, why was it only that one moment of plastic surgery and the doctor showing you pictures, then later a cutscene with Ocelot that Venom couldn't possibly see?

- As a twist, it doesn't accomplish what an end game twist should. Let's compare it to other MGS end-game twists.

* Grey Fox is Frank Yaeger and Naomi's brother. This works because of Hale's really stellar performance because of how clearly she's willing to sabotage the mission and kill Snake for revenge. Her desire for revenge was credible and palpable. Leaves time within the game to digest and build.

* The PAL card launches the missiles, not stops them. Twist with a gameplay element, making you realize you were played. This feeds into the main theme of the game because Snake being repeatedly manipulated and overcoming it (again, through gameplay) is important.

* The S3 Program is for controlling human thought. Uses the frustration with the initial, early-game twist of Raiden being the main character, the game presents increasing weirdness to you as the endgame ramps up to be about information control. Campbell isn't real and Rose has been betraying Raiden. This is probably a little weaker than everything else on the list, but you're given time for the characters to digest this and explain their objections to the idea and their willingness to fight against it.

* The Boss was a Patriot. You discover that The Boss never defected and was sent on a suicide mission to be killed by Snake. Snake was manipulated into a tragedy, upending the player's motivation and how they viewed the entire story. It is a strong ending twist because it massively changes how you view every interaction in the story in retrospect. You start to see the conversations where Boss was trying to leave you hints, why she seemed to be more interested in your growth as a soldier than she was in your danger to her. No one changed personality to fit the twist, the game was written around it as a central point.

This is a long walk around the park, but let's compare these to MGSV's twist. The well-acted aspect can be argued, based on how you feel about Kiefer's tape in the ending and the hour of tapes after. I personally wasn't a fan, but that's not up to me to decide for everyone. The gameplay implications don't really happen. You don't play Venom any differently than you would have Big Boss. The revelation doesn't change this, either. They couldn't have made him different because that would give the twist away. You aren't given time to find out how the characters react, just a series of tapes that it's really weird that Venom has outlining how it came to be, which, boy, what a clear indication this was well-written because it needs so much more context than the very little it got.

Finally, it certainly doesn't make you go back and look at the game in a different context with the knowledge you've gained. Interactions don't become different, except that everyone is either mislead or lying. It matters so little that there's debate for some characters over which one they are based on when a conversation took place informing them of the twist. It matters so little that they had to explain Ocelot hypnotizing himself into not knowing so as to not have any cutscenes where the twist might be tipped.

The twist is fine, in a vacuum. In the context the game places it in, it's just that, a twist. You find out about it and then you're done. Nothing changes. The men at Mother Base acknowledge the twist with the same level of ambivalence that the player does. The only thing it does is explain why Big Boss came back in Metal Gear 2, which it didn't need to, because they explain it in that game as him coming back with cyborg parts. Which is a lot less outlandish when you consider that, uh, Venom came back from the dead with cyborg parts in this game, so why did that need retconning in the first place?

I think, if they had placed this twist in the middle of a finished game, like right around Mission 30, and the rest of the game was dealing with the fallout from it, it would have been a lot better. But it was a cheap "Haha, gotcha!" of the worst kind: the kind you see coming, but is treated like you don't.

Well said. Good twists make you recontextualise scenes from earlier in the narrative.

 

[Neiteio]

I want Kaz to record my answering machine. And for readers who annoy me, a second voicemail message voiced by Code Talker, lecturing about wolbachia and copulation.

 

[akidnamededdy]

Ehh. Zanzibarland had some pretty terrible things going on. Big Boss needed to be stopped.

We just have no idea how he got to the point where "child soldiers and nuclear weapons yolo" was a viable plan for him.

Yeah. They should make a game about that. A "missing link in the metal gear saga" if you will.

 

[Unknown One]

I wasn't so sure about MGS1 that's why I didn't mention it, but thanks for the response. Codecs were such a huge part of MGS. It was devastating playing MGS4 and onwards. Hardly any easter eggs or information at all.

 

[KOMANI]

I wasn't so sure about MGS1 that's why I didn't mention it, but thanks for the response. Codecs were such a huge part of MGS. It was devastating playing MGS4 and onwards. Hardly any easter eggs or information at all.

The guy worked his ass off. He did so much research and it's because of him that the first three solid games carry an anti-American vibe with its warnings of nukes.

 

[BadWolf]

Thought it was due to all the complaining that codecs were reduced severely in MGS4.

They always put so much effort into them and yet the majority just whined and whined.

Same thing with the cutscenes in MGSV, thank the haters for long cutscenes being gone.

 

[Roni]

He trained Solid Snake. He was Snake's drill sergeant, 'Master' Miller. Solid Snake left FOXHOUND after 1995, and only returned for the Zanzibar Land incident in 1999, so he couldn't have been trained by Miller during that period, so it must have been before.

From Miller's wiki

It is true Miller trained Solid in some way at some point, but at no point does it say when and at what point in Solid's career. The only conversation that sheds any light on this matter from MGS is the Cardboard Box one that has Liquid impersonating Kaz and going straight for a Zanzibar reference, only for Snake to point out that tactic had been used in Outer Heaven too. Solid ends up saying he hasn't forgotten what Miller taught him.

I never read anywhere Solid retired in 1995 right after Outer Heaven and training is a constant in a soldier's life. So no great leap is required to assume he could've trained with Miller after the Outer Heaven Uprising happened.

I remain unconvinced.

 

[Reebot]

Yeah. They should make a game about that. A "missing link in the metal gear saga" if you will.

Who cares about that crap, I want to know how Big Boss didn't take revenge on a previously unknown character and didn't stop Metal Gear and didn't found Outer Heaven.

That's the real story.

 

[Alienous]

It is true Miller trained Solid in some way at some point, but at no point does it say when and at what point in Solid's career. The only conversation that sheds any light on this matter from MGS is the Cardboard Box one that has Liquid impersonating Kaz and going straight for a Zanzibar reference, only for Snake to point out that tactic had been used in Outer Heaven too. Solid ends up saying he hasn't forgotten what Miller taught him.

I never read anywhere Solid retired in 1995 right after Outer Heaven and training is a constant in a soldier's life. So no great leap is required to assume he could've trained with Miller after the Outer Heaven Uprising happened.

I remain unconvinced.

That's fine. Plausible deniability it is.

 

[Reebot]

Thought it was due to all the complaining that codecs were reduced severely in MGS4.

They always put so much effort into them and yet the majority just whined and whined.

Same thing with the cutscenes in MGSV, thank the haters for long cutscenes being gone.

Nope, since both long cutscenes and long codec style tapes are in Peace Walker - distinct from the one character monologues/interrogations dominating MGS V.

And can we stop with this cutscene length nonsense? There's so much more wrong with the scenes in MGS V than their brevity. They're simply poorly directed.

 

[Valkyri von Thanatos]

I wish we got more skins besides the ones we'll get in the DLC. I would have enjoyed being "patient" Snake with a limited bionic arm and bring very frail.

Indeed, the immediate transition from "oh shit I gotta work with this claw hand" to "okay here's Zadornov's hand but backwards, its actually better than your old one, lol" was strange. I would have at least liked some progression. The guide has some excellent art of a more "hook hand" bionic arm, would have been neat to have it as a melee weapon or something IDK.

He and Snake are in the dark until MGS2 comes around. You effectively play for the "bad guys" in MG2 and MGS.

He was being fiddled at the time, yes. Though as ShockingAlberto pointed out, it doesn't matter, BB/V needed to be stopped. This is part of why Campbell is somewhat endearing as the CO of 1 & (barely) 4. He can't really handle all the conspiracy stuff and is kind of just a "normal guy".

Bare breast with a snake tattoo that "laughed" when it jiggled.

This is true, Kojima admitted this is what he wanted at first.

I wanted them all dead.

As f'd up as it is, I was dissapointed the obvious child death elements were toned down. Just look at the "Nuclear" trailer, many roasted kids. Still, I really don't think just having them die would have been good, they needed actual involvement in the plot more than anything.

He fooled his daughter into hating him pretty well in MGS4.

Haha, yes, he was a bastard in regards to that. Though, in my defense, I was remarking about his merits as a CO, and I don't remember if Meryl is ever under orders from him, even in MGS1 I remember her more as an independent agent apparently sent in as collateral to motivate Campbell. I don't recall her taking orders or Campbell acting as her CO in that game or 4.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

The thing I miss most about codecs is you get a real sense of the characters' personality through fairly incidental dialogue. It's something even Rising did rather well. Even really simple characters ended up being identifiable and fun to hear from in that game.

 

[Neiteio]

The thing I miss most about codecs is you get a real sense of the characters' personality through fairly incidental dialogue. It's something even Rising did rather well. Even really simple characters ended up being identifiable and fun to hear from in that game.

I thought the codecs were great in Metal Gear Rising. And the best part is they weren't forced on you. I was able to enjoy them on my own terms, when I had already had my fill of hack and slash.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I thought the codecs were great in Metal Gear Rising. And the best part is they weren't forced on you. I was able to enjoy them on my own terms, when I had already had my fill of hack and slash.

The ones they did make you listen to were great.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BH2Rr6Bb0Y

 

[Freedom = $1.05]

i still think the worst part of the twist is that they make you replay the whole tutorial. I didn't have fun with it the first time and almost 80 hours later it's even shittier that they didn't just edit that stuff together so it's just a series of cutscenes after the reveal.

 

[Valkyri von Thanatos]

Nope, since both long cutscenes and long codec style tapes are in Peace Walker - distinct from the one character monologues/interrogations dominating MGS V.

And can we stop with this cutscene length nonsense? There's so much more wrong with the scenes in MGS V than their brevity. They're simply poorly directed.

Mostly the character dialogue, it isn't just that people talk to brick wall, it's that there are weird af pauses in dialogue between characters for no reason, like as V enters the Quarantine Facility. And of course how every scene with Quiet has pretty much the most shamelessly perverted camera I've ever seen for any game or movie.

 

[KOMANI]

Indeed, the immediate transition from "oh shit I gotta work with this claw hand" to "okay here's Zadornov's hand but backwards, its actually better than your old one, lol" was strange. I would have at least liked some progression. The guide has some excellent art of a more "hook hand" bionic arm, would have been neat to have it as a melee weapon or something IDK.

I'm assuming that the illustrations are from Shinkawa. In my humble opinion, his drawings rarely come to fruition or done justice to. Those drawings of Venom/big boss drawings are terrific.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

i still think the worst part of the twist is that they make you replay the whole tutorial. I didn't have fun with it the first time and almost 80 hours later it's even shittier that they didn't just edit that stuff together so it's just a series of cutscenes after the reveal.

I'd have liked it if more stuff changed.

Nothing changing between the bed and the ambulance was pretty bad.

 

[Neiteio]

The ones they did make you listen to were great.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BH2Rr6Bb0Y

Haha, that's right

Herr Doktor!

 

[Reebot]

Mostly the character dialogue, it isn't just that people talk to brick wall, it's that there are weird af pauses in dialogue between characters for no reason, like as V enters the Quarantine Facility. And of course how every scene with Quiet has pretty much the most shamelessly perverted camera I've ever seen for any game or movie.

The worst offenders for me are the Volgin scenes, where Venom silently stands by and lets a seven-foot flaming man hug him.

 

[Neiteio]

The worst offenders for me are the Volgin scenes, where Venom silently stands by and lets a seven-foot flaming man hug him.

You could say Volgin has a... warm embrace

 

[Vibranium]

If nothing else, MGS V makes it abundantly clear that Kojima without a filter shouldn't write games.

I can agree with this. He has some insanely awesome ideas, but he needs someone to put them together properly.

I really missed codecs in this game. Couldn't stop thinking about how awesome it would be to be playing as a young, chatty Solid Snake with no growl.

 

[KOMANI]

Here is a collection of the snake/otacon save codec convos. They get progressively funnier.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hW8QPIId6E8

 

[Chariot]

I can agree with this. He has some insanely awesome ideas, but he needs someone to put them together properly.

He just needed writers to that can stand up to him. Like Del Toro and Ito.

;_;

 

[Haunted]

Diamond Dongs

 

[WrenchNinja]

The worst offenders for me are the Volgin scenes, where Venom silently stands by and lets a seven-foot flaming man hug him.

I wanted an action movie exchange between Volgin and Snake

Snake: "Volgin, aren't you supposed to be dead?"
Volgin: "Aren't you?"

And then have a cool cutscene fist fight leading into a not shitty boss fight

Instead we have

Snake: "..."
Volgin: ROAR

 

[Neiteio]

Diamond Dongs

*Quiet starts drinking water with her boobs*

Kaz: "Glistening tits... for our brothers-in-arms... even in death."

Venom: "We are Diamond Dongs."

 

[ShockingAlberto]

In fairness to the context of the game, Venom should have had no idea who Volgin was at first.

That said, it's a real dumb way to resolve the subplot that Volgin just eventually notices Venom isn't Snake and gives up.

 

[KOMANI]

I wanted an action movie exchange between Volgin and Snake

Snake: "Volgin, aren't you supposed to be dead?"
Volgin: "Aren't you?"

And then have a cool cutscene fist fight leading into a not shitty boss fight

Instead we have

Snake: "..."
Volgin: ROAR

that reminds me of the conversation between Snake and Raven. Incidentally, I heard Hayter act your script when I read it.

 

[Reebot]

I can agree with this. He has some insanely awesome ideas, but he needs someone to put them together properly.

Yeah, there are great ideas buried in MGS V, hinted and teased. Mostly in the opening which, despite dragging, has some great scenes.

You can tangibly feel the drop in direction quality once the game proper begins. Scenes get more abrupt, they lack pacing and timing. Most, if not all, are directed as functionally shot-reverse shot, with a pan instead of a cut. Even the great cinéma vérité style gets effectively thrown away.

Then we get introduced to all those ludicrous plot points that belonged in the trash, not a shooting script. A second writer, maybe even a third and fourth, really should have done passes on the script to tighten up the plots and cut all the fat. This also would have let Kojima refocus himself on direction; when he's in the zone - like the Ground Zeroes opening cutscene - he produces some gems.

 

[Neiteio]

Say what you will about the Man on Fire, but the sound design/music when he walks is amazing. That thumping sound combined with what sound like muffled sirens or whale calls underwater. Scary as hell.

 

[Barry Burton]

*Quiet starts drinking water with her boobs*

Kaz: "Glistening tits... for our brothers-in-arms... even in death."

Venom: "We are Diamond Dongs."

Couldn't resist.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

It may just be me, but I always heard Volgin's roar as a really corrupted and strained "Kuwabara"

 

[Neiteio]

It may just be me, but I always heard Volgin's roar as a really corrupted and strained "Kuwabara"

I only speak lingua franca, you'll have to translate this for me, Shocking-sensei