Right, but Reed is going to know and that's the part I'm looking forward to. As soon as he comes into direct contact with Sue or Val, he's going to know instinctively he's not talking to the 616 incarnation of either.
Marvels Secret Wars by Hickman & Ribic |OT| Everything ends... Everything begins
- Thread starter Mudcrab
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Right, but Reed is going to know and that's the part I'm looking forward to. As soon as he comes into direct contact with Sue or Val, he's going to know instinctively he's not talking to the 616 incarnation of either.
Secret Wars was never meant to be about Tony/Steve. Avengers/New Avengers was , and I think the way it ended was good.
It started with Steve and Tony both representing those ideals, but then as it progressed, we saw that they don't actually represent those ideals, they're not fighting for the greater good, they're only in it for themselves.
That's why when their world itself was ending, they ignored everything else and focused only on beating each other up.
cool, but they really dead tho
But he didn't drop the ball. He dropped a Helicarrier.
Anway, Busaiko mentioned it already but Hickman's run never was about Steve or Tony. I think they both respresented the wrong idea; both wouldn't change their ideals and as the story progressed Hickman introduced new players who would make the tough decisions and actually plan ahead: Doom, Namor getting more time, Strange and eventually Reed and Panther got the message from Valeria. Start thinking on "not to lose". I think Hickman did a good job on portraying that both Steve and Tony never made such plans to begin with. They were so tied up in making their Avengers machine and at the start of Time Runs Out it devolved into a petty rivalry. Hell, their plans were already destroyed during the events of New Avengers #2 in which Strange mindwiped Cap. Every talk ever since then was a lie and didn't do much for the story.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
I know. But a freshly bereaved Reed ain't gonna take too kindly to seeing his arch-nemesis palling around with alternate versions of his family.
I totally understand the "point" that it was no-win solution, but I think it's really incorrect to say the run was -not- about Steve and Tony. It totally was. It's fair to say Secret Wars isn't, and is it's own thing. I can respect that and enjoy Secret Wars for what it is - a huge send-off for Hickman's half-decade plus at Marvel and a celebration of the Marvel universe itself with Doom and Reed at the center of conflict. But the entire Avengers run? It was clearly about Steve and Tony, and the Avengers machine. That all amounted to nothing. And sure, you can say that was "the point" but I think the point could have played out in a more elegant way.
As such, it feels like the entire run was hyping up this huge "legendary" thing, which never happened. Maybe -that- is the point I'm failing to understand here. In the very first issue, the framework was made clear right at the start:
"Some say it began when Hyperion was pulled from another universe." <- Hyperion
"Some say it was when the guard was broken on a dead moon," <- Smasher
"Some say it was when Ex-Nihilo terraformed Mars into a green planet." <- Captain Universe/Ex-Nihilo/Abyss
"They were all wrong."
"It started before the light." <- The Last White Event
"Before the war." <- Infinity
"Before the fall." <- Time Runs Out? Secret Wars?
"It started with two men." <- Steve and Tony
"It started with an idea." <- The Avengers Machine
So from the start of the run, Hickman basically foreshadowed everything. He laid out his plans that he was going to tell a number of stories about escalation, about a lot of stuff happening, about the new Avengers characters he was creating having a role in these, and how some people would look back and think they were more important than they were. But in the end, it was all rooted in Steve and Tony having the idea to create the Avengers Machine. It would bring everyone together and it is even shown in possible futures that this idea outlives them both and becomes all consuming - taking over the universe itself.
But... leading into Secret Wars, all this is just... wiped away. So if none of this matters in Secret Wars in the end, the question is... what was the legend itself that "grew in the telling" and who are all the people who would be left around wondering where it all really began? Like I said, I would happily take it all back if the conclusion of Secret Wars ties back to all of this and closes the narrative loop, but as it is, I feel that the story did not end. If it was just Steve and Tony fist fighting as the world ends, there is no legend, there is nothing to speculate about, no one would be talking about it in the future or wondering how it all started, even if Battleworld ends and everything is put back together. No one would give a -fuck-. That's my point.
As such, it feels like the entire run was hyping up this huge "legendary" thing, which never happened. Maybe -that- is the point I'm failing to understand here. In the very first issue, the framework was made clear right at the start:
"Some say it began when Hyperion was pulled from another universe." <- Hyperion
"Some say it was when the guard was broken on a dead moon," <- Smasher
"Some say it was when Ex-Nihilo terraformed Mars into a green planet." <- Captain Universe/Ex-Nihilo/Abyss
"They were all wrong."
"It started before the light." <- The Last White Event
"Before the war." <- Infinity
"Before the fall." <- Time Runs Out? Secret Wars?
"It started with two men." <- Steve and Tony
"It started with an idea." <- The Avengers Machine
So from the start of the run, Hickman basically foreshadowed everything. He laid out his plans that he was going to tell a number of stories about escalation, about a lot of stuff happening, about the new Avengers characters he was creating having a role in these, and how some people would look back and think they were more important than they were. But in the end, it was all rooted in Steve and Tony having the idea to create the Avengers Machine. It would bring everyone together and it is even shown in possible futures that this idea outlives them both and becomes all consuming - taking over the universe itself.
But... leading into Secret Wars, all this is just... wiped away. So if none of this matters in Secret Wars in the end, the question is... what was the legend itself that "grew in the telling" and who are all the people who would be left around wondering where it all really began? Like I said, I would happily take it all back if the conclusion of Secret Wars ties back to all of this and closes the narrative loop, but as it is, I feel that the story did not end. If it was just Steve and Tony fist fighting as the world ends, there is no legend, there is nothing to speculate about, no one would be talking about it in the future or wondering how it all started, even if Battleworld ends and everything is put back together. No one would give a -fuck-. That's my point.
The thing is, I think, you're looking at it too one dimensionally. All of those things that were foreshadowed don't only apply to Steve and Tony, they also apply to Namor/T'chala, Hyperion/Thor, and Reed/Doom. It wasn't so much about the Avenger's Machine, that in itself was foreshadowing for Doom's eventual plan, but about the conflict between Steve and Tony. Two men, unable to agree on the most important problem either would ever face, both willing to commit an act of genocide to serve their own morality and egos. In the grand scheme, both men, Tony and Steve, were small and insignificant. They didn't matter at all, nothing either one did changed anything in the end. They were two men who thought they were bigger than they were, playing god, while the real titans went about doing things that mattered.
In the end we were supposed to see them as small, as not mattering, because nothing they did throughout the either series mattered at all. T'chala gathered the Illuminati and killed their first world, Doom killed the Beyonders and saved what was left at the end of all things, Reed found a way to save the human race and give them a second chance, Namor unleashed the Cabal and gave the Earth more time that it should have had, while Hyperion and Thor went out into the abyss to challenge the Beyonders and give everyone hope. In the end all Steve and Tony did was fight among themselves, even when the world was ending around them they were unable to put their egos aside and do the right thing.
The Avengers Machine may outlive them both, but it's fairly obvious that it was co-opted at some point by the Cabal. Remember that Thanos was called the world's greatest Avegner, not Tony or Steve. Could you see either one of them letting him on the team? Basically, they were so busy arguing that they very thing they built was stolen out from under them. They aren't even remember for it, Thanos is.
Just considering Avengers itself, I think Hickman did a poor job of framing it as Steve/Tony. Maybe he was limited due to each solo book, but I never felt like there was a focus on their relationship until they were at each other throats. The other relationships like the bromance of Thor and Hyperion outshine the two.
This is all -story- stuff though. Like I said repeatedly, while inconsistent, I enjoy the story fine. What I'm pointing the critique here is the framing device. Everyone defends the story and how them not matter in the end is the "point", but that's not what I'm trying to say here. The entire Avengers run was -framed- from a narrative standpoint by the narrative text (ie: the voice of the author) as a mythological Avengers legend that originated from the idea that Steve and Tony had, and that grew beyond them, beyond everything, and as seen in the time jumping sequence before Time Runs Out - it became all of existence itself. That's the exciting thing about the entire framing device - it teases the imagination and makes one wonder what the end game of it all is. The problem is, as of Secret Wars, there is -no- end game, everything "died".
And none of this matters as of Secret Wars. It was all flushed the moment Secret Wars started. That's WHY I want to see it tie back in towards the end of Secret Wars because I think that when you create a narrative frame that talks about a cycle with an order of things, you should respect the audience enough to follow through with it by the end. The ending of the Avengers Machine cannot be "Steve and Tony beat each other up as the entire world ended" because that's not thematically consistent with everything else. If that's how it all "ended" for this storyline, then there would be no one talking about Avengers, the legend, or how it all started. No one would be talking about anything at all. This isn't the end, clearly.
Hickman is a great planner and a talented writer. His stuff gets overly complicated at times, but he handles it better than most writers in both comics and even in television. So I have faith in him, but with the delays of the rest of Secret Wars, it just makes it frustrating to be at this spot after reading through everything in a little over a week. It's a terrible point to actually stop right now because Secret Wars itself kinda dragged in the last two issues. Doesn't help that the issues got much shorter too. So that's kinda where I'm coming from.
The Machine did go all the way through though, just not in the way you expected it to. After Infinity the machine has played it's part, and part 2 of the story begins. Part 2 is about deconstructing what was constructed in part 1.
While Avenger/New Avengers and Secret Wars are all part of a larger story, it's the first chapter of New Avengers that ties all of them together. It's Reed's speech about how everything dies, that everything must come to an end, that is the frame for the larger story you are talking about. The Avenger's Machine is a just a component of that frame, it isn't the actual frame. Reed's everything dies speech is the framework that holds the story together. When looked at through this frame everything fits together quite nicely.
Remember that in the proper reading order, the first few chapters of New Avengers comes before the first chapter of Avengers.
I dunno, I just don't agree that it fits together nicely. I do think that New Avengers handled its side of the story way better though. What started with the Illuminati preparing themselves to do the unthinkable climaxed with them realizing that they were incapable of actually doing it... except for Namor. That was a huge pay off moment which worked really well. The forming of the Cabal after that was the logical conclusion too.
I think by suggesting that Infinity is the "climax" of the point of the Avengers Machine though, you're touching on another aspect I've been thinking about - Infinity was just kinda lame. Some of the beats were entertaining, but for the event itself, it went on for way too long and the "punchline" at the end was hilarious - the entire event was essentially pointless in itself, but serves to show that even the worst combination of crisis facing the Earth are nothing compared to the coming end of the Multiverse.
I'm also not a huge fan of Time Runs Out itself - way too much exposition and little things which serve to lead in to the eventual final incursion. And I'm still bitter about the Namor troll. That was just lame. If you're going to finally make T'Challa stab Namor and throw him to his death, it better count for something. But nope. Trolled. Again! *salt*
I dunno, I just don't agree that it fits together nicely. I do think that New Avengers handled its side of the story way better though. What started with the Illuminati preparing themselves to do the unthinkable climaxed with them realizing that they were incapable of actually doing it... except for Namor. That was a huge pay off moment which worked really well. The forming of the Cabal after that was the logical conclusion too.
I think by suggesting that Infinity is the "climax" of the point of the Avengers Machine though, you're touching on another aspect I've been thinking about - Infinity was just kinda lame. Some of the beats were entertaining, but for the event itself, it went on for way too long and the "punchline" at the end was hilarious - the entire event was essentially pointless in itself, but serves to show that even the worst combination of crisis facing the Earth are nothing compared to the coming end of the Multiverse.
I'm also not a huge fan of Time Runs Out itself - way too much exposition and little things which serve to lead in to the eventual final incursion. And I'm still bitter about the Namor troll. That was just lame. If you're going to finally make T'Challa stab Namor and throw him to his death, it better count for something. But nope. Trolled. Again! *salt*
Well the Namor/T'challa thing also runs through Secret Wars, so it's not quite done yet. They still need to have their final throwdown.
Everything else is fair enough and comes down to taste.
Dem delays tho.
The delays are killing me.
Lashley
Why does he wear the mask!?
Tomorrow:
E Is For Extinction #4
Ghost Racers #4
X-Men '92 #4
True Believers Spider-Woman #1
True Believers The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl #1
S.H.I.E.L.D. #10
M.O.D.O.K. Assassin #5 (Of 5
Inferno #5
Hail Hydra #3
Cavalry S.H.I.E.L.D. 50th Anniversary #1
Captain America White #2 (Of 5)
Nothing for me.
E Is For Extinction #4
Ghost Racers #4
X-Men '92 #4
True Believers Spider-Woman #1
True Believers The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl #1
S.H.I.E.L.D. #10
M.O.D.O.K. Assassin #5 (Of 5
Inferno #5
Hail Hydra #3
Cavalry S.H.I.E.L.D. 50th Anniversary #1
Captain America White #2 (Of 5)
Nothing for me.
Yea that's a full week of all the worst tie ins.
I finally got my internet connection up at my new house. I've only had mobile internet for most of the past two weeks, so I haven't been as active on GAF. Thanks Lashley for taking over my duties this week.
Do we just continue this thread as usual when a new SW issue drops every 3 years after next week's #6? It's going to be weird posting theories with the first batch of ANAD books launching. Doctor Strange is one of the books launching next week, so I don't see how that at least doesn't spoil things for the entire story.
At least my lists will be shorter going forward. As of now, only 4 books are scheduled for next week, including SW#6.
Do we just continue this thread as usual when a new SW issue drops every 3 years after next week's #6? It's going to be weird posting theories with the first batch of ANAD books launching. Doctor Strange is one of the books launching next week, so I don't see how that at least doesn't spoil things for the entire story.
At least my lists will be shorter going forward. As of now, only 4 books are scheduled for next week, including SW#6.
a secret-boss
Banned
Just X-men 92
It's just a reprinting of issue 1 from earlier this year.
What is the general rule of thumb regarding Marvel comics about republications in collected editions like paperbacks and hardcovers? Can we expect every arc to be collected somehow or are they curated? And what is the general availability, do we have to buy them now or are they reprinted every few years?
I might be out of date since I usually go the digital route now. However I think that Marvel collects most if not all runs in trade. However the large majority of those are printed once and only the most popular stuff gets further reprints.
Jack Remington
Banned
They should just make Secret Wars a 12 issue series.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
And stretch it to Sepetember, 2016? No thanks.
Secret Wars #6 preview.
Edit:
Edit:
I wonder is those two getting captured just straight up happens off panel or if it takes place during AoA's last issue?
It's interesting how easily Black Swan changes her allegiances. We still have no idea why she broke off from Doom in the first place, I imagine it will come up at some point.
It's funny
because she thought she was worshiping some god all those years before the schism between Rabum Alal and the Swans, and now Doom truly is a god and out in the open.
Jack Remington
Banned
Let's be real, Battleworld is a lot better than the Marvel status quo was before Hickman took over. It'll probably be better than All New All Different.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
I can't believe #6 is actually a real thing that is happening to us.
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