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[KOMANI]

The constant repetition bothers me in this game. I'm talking about dialogue. For example:
Ocelot tells Miller that there will be one Big Boss. There's only room for one Big Boss.

Mission 45: ocelot tells you that Quiet is located at whatever place that's called. His next statement is that's she's located at that place. 1 minute in
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3fs8dg0k25U

The first scene with Ed Nortan and Michael Keaton during their rehearsal in the movie Birdman, opened my eyes on what bad writing is (like this post). You shouldn't spend so much time saying the same thing. Say it once. Make your point.

 

[foxtrot3d]

The constant repetition bothers me in this game. I'm talking about dialogue. For example:
Ocelot tells Miller that there will be one Big Boss. There's only room for one Big Boss.

Mission 45: ocelot tells you that Quiet is located at whatever place that's called. His next statement is that's she's located at that place.

The first scene with Ed Nortan and Michael Keaton during their rehearsal in the movie Birdman, opened my eyes on what bad writing is (like this post). You shouldn't spend so much time saying the same thing. Say it once. Make your point.

HA! Repetition and redundant dialogue is a hallmark of all MGS writing. Kojima has always been in bad need of an editor but he seems committed to the fact that he doesn't need one. Yahtzee's recent "Extra Punctuation" article mentions how many times a character in MGSV states "In other words" a hallmark phrase of bad writing. Why do they need to say "In other words?" Why not have them just state those words first?

 

[KOMANI]

HA! Repetition and redundant dialogue is a hallmark of all MGS writing. Kojima has always been in bad need of an editor but he seems committed to the fact that he doesn't need one. Yahtzee's recent "Extra Punctuation" article mentions how many times a character in MGSV states "In other words" a hallmark phrase of bad writing. Why do they need to say "In other words?" Why not have them just state those words first?

just want to remark how I've enjoyed your video and posts.
I really don't want to shit on the game anymore... I've got it all off my chest, game is good (I still protest GOTY), but I had hoped the writing would be better. I mean the writing comes before the meat of design and mo cap, so it should have been finished early on. But, yea... A bit disappointed on that front.

 

[Valkyri von Thanatos]

You can tell that burger isn't for people on the Atkin diet.

Kaz: "Well, regardless Boss, people are gonna be lining up to eat Diné at McDonnells!"

Spoiler

Kaz: "Taste without borders, "Saveur san Frontieres", I like the sound of that!"
Venom: "Huh, who ever heard of a dog cooking burgers?"

Yeah, I saw this earlier. It's great.

Snip

Spoiler

Shamelessly stolen from YouTube.

Needs some editing for perfection, but otherwise. "Mmm, pretty tasty!"

Spoiler

Youtube commenters, what are you gonna do? Edit it of course! "Co-ownership" instead of "coownering", expanding the fast food vocabular to remove the awkwardness of pronouncing "hamburger's" all the time, some other tightening could make this perfect. It's a little undercooked at the moment.

Imcredible. "Big Boss can go to KFC," hahaha.

Considering there was an inexplicable fixation with making fast food related MGS memes prior to release, at least on the official reddit, this can safely be said to be an avenue that TPP delivers well on, fulfilling fan expectations, and leaving them hungry for more.

 

[Neiteio]

The constant repetition bothers me in this game. I'm talking about dialogue. For example:
Ocelot tells Miller that there will be one Big Boss. There's only room for one Big Boss.

Mission 45: ocelot tells you that Quiet is located at whatever place that's called. His next statement is that's she's located at that place. 1 minute in
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3fs8dg0k25U

The first scene with Ed Nortan and Michael Keaton during their rehearsal in the movie Birdman, opened my eyes on what bad writing is (like this post). You shouldn't spend so much time saying the same thing. Say it once. Make your point.

I actually think that example you linked is OK since it's during gameplay and it's an objective. It bears repeating to reinforce it for the player.

But yes, there are other instances where they'll say the same thing several different ways.

 

[Valkyri von Thanatos]

HA! Repetition and redundant dialogue is a hallmark of all MGS writing. Kojima has always been in bad need of an editor but he seems committed to the fact that he doesn't need one. Yahtzee's recent "Extra Punctuation" article mentions how many times a character in MGSV states "In other words" a hallmark phrase of bad writing. Why do they need to say "In other words?" Why not have them just state those words first?

It seems since MGS3 (Tomokazu leaving after, etc.) he lost his way.

just want to remark how I've enjoyed your video and posts.
I really don't want to shit on the game anymore... I've got it all off my chest, game is good (I still protest GOTY), but I had hoped the writing would be better. I mean the writing comes before the meat of design and mo cap, so it should have been finished early on. But, yea... A bit disappointed on that front.

I think it was finished, besides the game parts that were left behind for production budget reasons. That's why I don't see budget being a complete excuse for the game's problems, the story is just laughable this time, and no secret missing parts could make up for the severe drop in quality in the game's core scenes since Peace Walker. Even GZ was much better, but the prologue in TPP also had a lot of gravitas as well... Did he write those two parts first and just made up whatever afterwards? Why Kojima?

Hence why most of my enjoyment comes from making fun of it by pointing out plot holes or relishing the few truly cheesy moments, since there's nothing that can be done for its sorry state as a dramatic and thematic work now. Only Venom's possible tragic subtext as a robot who couldn't help but follow Big Boss' orders since that's plays into his hypnotic programming sort of pays off, but the game doesn't build on this at all, and its only something that can be inferred but never confirmed to be the actual intent of Kojima.

 

[KOMANI]

It seems since MGS3 (Tomokazu leaving after, etc.) he lost his way.



I think it was finished, besides the game parts that were left behind for production budget reasons. That's why I don't see budget being a complete excuse for the game's problems, the story is just laughable this time. Hence why most of the enjoyment comes from making fun of it by pointing out plot holes or relishing the few truly cheesy moments, since there's nothing that can be done for its sorry state as a dramatic and thematic work now.

thats what I'm saying., the writing was definitely finished, and yet it's... It's bad.
I am one of those that believe the loss of Fukushima and without a good localization, the writing suffered ... But this is the worst, I could also be thinking this way because of how fresh the game still is in my head.

 

[Valkyri von Thanatos]

thats what I'm saying., the writing was definitely finished, and yet it's... It's bad.
I am one of those that believe the loss of Fukushima and without a good localization, the writing suffered ... But this is the worst, I could also be thinking this way because of how fresh the game still is in my head.

Even disregarding the misdirection through trailers and things, because I suppose we should have seen that coming, its really, really bad IMO. It keeps on introducing interesting concepts discarding them in the worst way possible. The story that exists here already (loss of identity through language control/thought control, a search for vengeance, hell even Quiet's ludicrous fanservice excuse and super power parasites) could have been written as a 10/10 story, no doubt.

But as it is, the game sits at about a 7.5 to 8.0 overall for me, weighted down by a meh 5/10 story. "An attempt was made".

Spoiler

The game's bad story slithers through your mind and haunts you just like the snake in your "Outer Haven" skull.

Edit:

OH YEAH! I was sure that the "skull" in the Outer Heaven design would have something directly to do with Skullface, like BB took Skully's actual goddamn skull and kept it as a trophy. But that's when we thought this game's Snake was gonna go ape shit crazy. Venom would never do something so disturbing as that.

 

[foxtrot3d]

thats what I'm saying., the writing was definitely finished, and yet it's... It's bad.
I am one of those that believe the loss of Fukushima and without a good localization, the writing suffered ... But this is the worst, I could also be thinking this way because of how fresh the game still is in my head.

I think some of you have rose tinted glasses of MGS dialouge. The only MGS game that had good localization was MGS1 and that was because Jeremy Blaustein did and was given more creative control with translating thing. After that game however Kojima didn't bring him back and insisted on a closer translation to what he wrote, thus we are left with wonky dialogue in addition to the always present redundancy. Hell, just listen to The Boss' final speech in MGS3. It's a nice speech but man is it redundant and way too long. I get this is her death speech but she repeats the same thing like 3 times.

 

[Marty-esque]

Anybody watch The League tonight? The Boss was on it.

 

[JayEH]

Well Kojima had 3 co writers for MGSV I believe. So I imagine they wrote much of the radio/tape conversations. There is also the issue of translation which could be a problem with the writing. Not necessarily trying to defend Kojima's writing (since it can be bad at times) but there might be other factors.

 

[KOMANI]

I think some of you have rose tinted glasses of MGS dialouge. The only MGS game that had good localization was MGS1 and that was because Jeremy Blaustein did and was given more creative control with translating thing. After that game however Kojima didn't bring him back and insisted on a closer translation to what he wrote, thus we are left with wonky dialogue in addition to the always present redundancy. Hell, just listen to The Boss' final speech in MGS3. It's a nice speech but man is it redundant and way too long. I get this is her death speech but she repeats the same thing like 3 times.

When Blaustein wasn't interfered with, his did a great job. But even Agness Kaku did a fantastic job localizing MGS2, at least for the tanker mission.
Ex of her word on mgs2
http://blog.hardcoregaming101.net/2012/02/agness-kaku-update-konami-japan.html?m=1

 

[Berserker976]

I think some of you have rose tinted glasses of MGS dialouge. The only MGS game that had good localization was MGS1 and that was because Jeremy Blaustein did and was given more creative control with translating thing. After that game however Kojima didn't bring him back and insisted on a closer translation to what he wrote, thus we are left with wonky dialogue in addition to the always present redundancy. Hell, just listen to The Boss' final speech in MGS3. It's a nice speech but man is it redundant and way too long. I get this is her death speech but she repeats the same thing like 3 times.

I'll take a long-winded, somewhat redundant speeches over minutes upon minutes of silence and blank stares any day.

From the time you start the OKB Zero mission to when you finally blow up Sahelanthropus Big Boss literally doesn't say a single thing.

 

[Red Blaster]

I think some of you have rose tinted glasses of MGS dialouge. The only MGS game that had good localization was MGS1 and that was because Jeremy Blaustein did and was given more creative control with translating thing. After that game however Kojima didn't bring him back and insisted on a closer translation to what he wrote, thus we are left with wonky dialogue in addition to the always present redundancy. Hell, just listen to The Boss' final speech in MGS3. It's a nice speech but man is it redundant and way too long. I get this is her death speech but she repeats the same thing like 3 times.

agnes kaku definitely changed a bunch of the dialog for mgs2 with her interpretation

 

[foxtrot3d]

I'll take a long-winded, somewhat redundant speeches over minutes upon minutes of silence and blank stares any day.

You'll find no disagreement with me.

 

[plutoknight]

Even disregarding the misdirection through trailers and things, because I suppose we should have seen that coming, its really, really bad IMO. It keeps on introducing interesting concepts discarding them in the worst way possible. The story that exists here already (loss of identity through language control/thought control, a search for vengeance, hell even Quiet's ludicrous fanservice excuse and super power parasites) could have been written as a 10/10 story, no doubt.

But as it is, the game sits at about a 7.5 to 8.0 overall for me, weighted down by a meh 5/10 story. "An attempt was made".

I think this is how I feel about it in a nutshell.

There are shards -- so, so many shards -- of great ideas here. But that's just it. It's like....a rough draft of MGS2. A very rough draft.

Skull Face has some GREAT ideas, and great commentary. Zero gives us some of his own. Vocal cord parasites are a silly idea but no sillier than their successor, FOXDIE.

I almost feel like Kojima had one ending in mind, and partway through development, went "crap I want to change my ending" but didn't have enough dev/writing time to fix his holes....and then here we have. I mean, look at how Mission 46 comes up. It just...happens. "Hey, Huey just left and stuff and HEY HERE'S A MISSION THAT FINISHES THE GAME THAT'S COOL YEAH." No drum up to it, nothing.

So far, MGS2 is the only game in the series that combines great gameplay with thought-provoking commentary.

I guess, at one end, I like MGSV for sticking to the Moby Dick motif (even down to how the game is structured/plays). But it could have been so much more! Maybe that's a good thing. Or maybe leaving these barebones ideas that can be interpreted in myriad ways is a secret good thing....now I'm just ranting.

I'm not suggesting TPP is similar to Moby-Dick. They're completely different stories aside from loose thematic elements such as the folly of revenge.

Well, honestly...I think TPP is structured pretty similarly to the novel, but 1. that's a completely whacko idea from me and 2. it's been years since I had to read Moby Dick and I don't want to re-read it just to see if TPP emulates the novel structurally, anyhow. XD

 

[KOMANI]

I wanted to post this again even though it's only a few posts above. Hardcore gaming 101 has a few interesting interviews with Ryan Payton who discusses the retcons of MGS4, Blaustein, Kaku, and Shinta Nojiri who designed the tanker mission.
http://blog.hardcoregaming101.net/2012/02/agness-kaku-update-konami-japan.html?m=1
http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/metalgear/shintanojiri.htm

 

[Neiteio]

Well, honestly...I think TPP is structured pretty similarly to the novel, but 1. that's a completely whacko idea from me and 2. it's been years since I had to read Moby Dick and I don't want to re-read it just to see if TPP emulates the novel structurally, anyhow. XD

Structurally speaking, the whole MGS series has similarities to Moby-Dick, insofar as the games (like the book) bounce back and forth between normal storytelling and insanely in-depth lessons on history, culture, etc. When they go on forever about the evolution of the whale or the history of whaling in Moby-Dick, before getting back to Ahab's quest for revenge, that's like the Melville equivalent of a codec call in MGS.

 

[plutoknight]

Structurally speaking, the whole MGS series has similarities to Moby-Dick, insofar as the games (like the book) bounce back and forth between normal storytelling and insanely in-depth lessons on history, culture, etc. When they go on forever about the evolution of the whale or the history of whaling in Moby-Dick, before getting back to Ahab's quest for revenge, that's like the Melville equivalent of a codec call in MGS.

That's.....an interesting way to look at the series as a whole. I like that.

I was looking at it strictly with missions and their spacing in MGSV -- you have a bunch of missions that space out the 'normal storytelling' and it creates the feel of this long read. I guess it's something I'd just noticed with MGSV since it REAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY loved to remind you of its inspiration....

 

[Neiteio]

That's.....an interesting way to look at the series as a whole. I like that.

I was looking at it strictly with missions and their spacing in MGSV -- you have a bunch of missions that space out the 'normal storytelling' and it creates the feel of this long read. I guess it's something I'd just noticed with MGSV since it REAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY loved to remind you of its inspiration....

For sure. With TPP in particular, I get Moby-Dick vibes from the vignette-like structure of the second half, where it has this slice-of-life quality on Mother Base with the different character arcs coming together (often tragically) as their troubles come home to roost.

But yeah, the main similarity between Moby-Dick and the MGS series as a whole are the "codec calls." Melville tried to cram an encyclopedia's worth of trivia into his book every three chapters, and Kojima breaks up his storytelling the same way.

And before people go crazy again, this is not an equivalence of quality. That's for each individual reader/player to decide. Although for the record I'm quite content with the story in TPP.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

So apparently someone found a cypher within the game. And what he decoded was a message:

Spoiler

Truth The Man Who Sold The World Is Not The Final Mission

What say you, gaf? How deep does this rabbit hole go. Some more troll fuckery? Or is this ARG the real deal?

 

[JayEH]

So apparently someone found a cypher within the game. And what he decoded was a message:

Spoiler

Truth The Man Who Sold The World Is Not The Final Mission

What say you, gaf? How deep does this rabbit hole go. Some more troll fuckery? Or is this ARG the real deal?

 

[Ōkami]

Truth The Man Who Sold The World Is Not The Final Mission, that is correct.

[EXTREME] Sahelanthropus is the final mission.

 

[Neiteio]

Truth The Man Who Sold The World Is Not The Final Mission, that is correct.

[EXTREME] Sahelanthropus is the final mission.

Mission 52 is the real final mission. "Kaz's Culinary Ops." Venom retrieves ingredients for the Chemical Burger from ACE Chemical, confirming MGS takes place in the same universe as Batman.

 

[Red Blaster]

I wanted to post this again even though it's only a few posts above. Hardcore gaming 101 has a few interesting interviews with Ryan Payton who discusses the retcons of MGS4, Blaustein, Kaku, and Shinto
http://blog.hardcoregaming101.net/2012/02/agness-kaku-update-konami-japan.html?m=1

it wasn't posted on hg101 but there was some other interview with ryan payton where he was very dismissive of mgs2's localization which i thought was pretty self-serving given i didn't see any noticeable improvement in mgs4's. i attribute some of this to mgs2 having a better script than the asscrap that was in mgs4 but i was a fervent listener to the kojima report podcasts back in the day and he was never shy to deem the earlier localizations as problematic to western tastes.

also didn't realize that that kaku interviews had to be removed due to a konami dmca notice...or that she's engaged in a protracted lawsuit with the hg101 writer who interviewed her for apparently ruining her career?

 

[Imm0rt4l]

Truth The Man Who Sold The World Is Not The Final Mission, that is correct.

[EXTREME] Sahelanthropus is the final mission.

c'monSon.png

 

[Imm0rt4l]

https://www.reddit.com/r/NeverBeGam...code_i_found_potentially_broken_or_breakable/


Forgot to link, you be the judge. There is undoubtedly some stupid shit in that subreddit, but I haven't checked the spreadsheet out myself yet.

 

[DXLelouch153]

Mission 52 is the real final mission. "Kaz's Culinary Ops." Venom retrieves ingredients for the Chemical Burger from ACE Chemical, confirming MGS takes place in the same universe as Batman.

Bruce Wayne was a clone of Big Boss all along
when you think about it Big Boss is basicly the batman of MGS

 

[KOMANI]

Bruce Wayne was a clone of Big Boss all along
when you think about it Big Boss is basicly the batman of MGS

Not the big boss you need, but the big boss you deserve

 

[toddhunter]

Sahelanthropus is the final mission.

I think this is correct.

Mgs5 was not cut short. We just got extra unfinished stuff as a bonus, since the next two releases were not going to be made.

 

[Jintor]

Structurally speaking, the whole MGS series has similarities to Moby-Dick, insofar as the games (like the book) bounce back and forth between normal storytelling and insanely in-depth lessons on history, culture, etc. When they go on forever about the evolution of the whale or the history of whaling in Moby-Dick, before getting back to Ahab's quest for revenge, that's like the Melville equivalent of a codec call in MGS.

damnit neitio i pointed this out like a month ago!

 

[Tabris]

I think this is correct.

Mgs5 was not cut short. We just got extra unfinished stuff as a bonus, since the next two releases were not going to be made.

MGS5 was definitely cut short. It makes me mad as I loved everything about the game except for it being cut short (and Quiet's character design).

They properly linked Big Boss to MG1 and MG2 but didn't finish Liquid's link to MGS1.

What do you think the chances of Mission 51 DLC are? I assume none since there's no news about Kojima working on anything at Konami.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

I think this is correct.

Mgs5 was not cut short. We just got extra unfinished stuff as a bonus, since the next two releases were not going to be made.

Of course it was cut short

 

[akidnamededdy]

I think this is correct.

Mgs5 was not cut short. We just got extra unfinished stuff as a bonus, since the next two releases were not going to be made.

Dude they show storyboards and cutscenes from mission 51 on the collector's dvd and say HEY THIS WAS CUT FROM THE GAME BECAUSE WE RAN OUT OF TIME, the fuck are you even saying.

 

[KOMANI]

MGS5 was definitely cut short. It makes me mad as I loved everything about the game except for it being cut short (and Quiet's character design).

They properly linked Big Boss to MG1 and MG2 but didn't finish Liquid's link to MGS1.

What do you think the chances of Mission 51 DLC are? I assume none since there's no news about Kojima working on anything at Konami.

They got him till December.
My question is who will be maintaining the game when MGO launches?
DLC costumes are confirmed btw. So we might get a SP DLC.

 

[SJRB]

I think this is correct.

Mgs5 was not cut short. We just got extra unfinished stuff as a bonus, since the next two releases were not going to be made.

What the fuck..?

Explain to me how mission 51 was not cut, exactly.


Hell, even the trailers have scenes that didn't end up in the final game.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

They got him till December.
My question is who will be maintaining the game when MGO launches?
DLC costumes are confirmed btw. So we might get a SP DLC.

At the very least we are getting sp DLC in the form of costumes. I'm mostly curious about the FOB update tbh.

 

[Haunted]

So apparently someone found a cypher within the game. And what he decoded was a message:

Spoiler

Truth The Man Who Sold The World Is Not The Final Mission

What say you, gaf? How deep does this rabbit hole go. Some more troll fuckery? Or is this ARG the real deal?

I say there are parts of the fanbase that are as delusional as ever.

Remember, David Hayter is definitely, totally in this game. And the supposed fallout between Konami and KojiPro was just a huge troll and misdirection by Kojima. And that actor in bandages during that one interview was CG.

 

[Berserker976]

I think this is correct.

Mgs5 was not cut short. We just got extra unfinished stuff as a bonus, since the next two releases were not going to be made.

2 + 2 = 5

 

[Imm0rt4l]

I say there are parts of the fanbase that are as delusional as ever.

Remember, David Hayter is definitely, totally in this game. And the supposed fallout between Konami and KojiPro was just a huge troll and misdirection by Kojima. And that actor in bandages during that one interview was CG.

Believing that konami would let shareholders take a hit for a practical joke is stupid. Believing that hayter would be in the game is baseless wishful thinking in hopes that Kojima was trolling..

 

[hipsterpants]

Finally finished Quiet's story, like 5 days after I finished Mission 46. 10/10, GOTY, etc. Probably ranks up there with some of my favorite games of all time, even with all the unfinished-ness. I actually liked the story a whole lot as well. Not sure if I'm crazy enough to go for 100% though.

Also I was underwhelmed by Mission 45. There was one sniper tank that got me a few times but otherwise it was pretty easy...

 

[Vampirolol]

BB (as part of Foxhound) orders Solid Snake to off him and destroy the Metal Gear to take out Venom, the monster he created. Venom acquires the tape somehow, which details the mission for Solid to take him out.

That's only one of many interpretations, though.

The tape is for Venom, BB just wants to explain Operation Intrude N313 to him because he wants Solid to lose. Too bad Venom is actually there, knowing Solid will likely kill him.

 

[Gorillaz]

I don't see Mission 51 being released at this point. I think that extra from the Special Edition was basically it.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

Honestly episode 51 seemed like it would have been an underwhelming finale

 

[meltingparappa]

Remember, David Hayter is definitely, totally in this game.

Was there ever a consensus on the speculation of what caused the fall out between the two?

Or is it the obvious answer of "sorry small time, I'm going with a big shot TV actor." Or equally likely, Hayter upping his price.

 

[bucyou55]

Honestly episode 51 seemed like it would have been an underwhelming finale

compared to what we got?

 

[toddhunter]

What the fuck..?

Explain to me how mission 51 was not cut, exactly.


Hell, even the trailers have scenes that didn't end up in the final game.

Because none of that was meant to be in the game.

Mgs5, the phantom pain ends at the end of chapter 1. It is complete. All the rest of the content is for the next game that you were going to buy next year.

So it isn't that mgs5 is cut, it is that mgs5-2 and mgs5-3 were not made. Konami obviously chucked in whatever was ready, added some replay missions to extend it out and called it a day.

Look at it this way, if the game had ended at the end of chapter 1, would you be happier?

 

[A-V-B]

Because none of that was meant to be in the game.

Mgs5, the phantom pain ends at the end of chapter 1. It is complete. All the rest of the content is for the next game that you were going to buy next year.

So it isn't that mgs5 is cut, it is that mgs5-2 and mgs5-3 were not made.

what.

what.

 

[Gorillaz]

Honestly episode 51 seemed like it would have been an underwhelming finale

Going to go off of what Jeff said for their spoilercast in terms of 51. It probably wasn't that good of a mission, or even worth the money during this whole clash and just said whatever. Probably wasn't worth it.

compared to what we got?

the mission wouldn't have saved the way it ended, it would have cleared a loose end, but not "the" loose end of the game

 

[Imm0rt4l]

Was there ever a consensus on the speculation of what caused the fall out between the two?

Or is it the obvious answer of "sorry small time, I'm going with a big shot TV actor." Or equally likely, Hayter upping his price.

Fan of 24 and he was introduced to sutherland at some point I believe.


Some speculate that hayter offended him somehow, there's no real consensus. Debi Mae west said she believes they tried to get rid of him back in mgs2. Nothings really substantiated. I think it's a matter of him liking 24 and David Hayter sucks.