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[Neiteio]

I never thought I'd miss the slideshows. They were painfully awkward and pace-halting, but nowhere near as catastrophic as that jeep ride. The woeful misuse of Sins of the Father is starting to seem more and more like an intentional admission of guilt...

Man, I'd take the jeep rides and whoa-ooohs over slideshows any day. At least during the jeep ride I can look around and see stuff happening in the background.

Really, the jeep ride didn't bother me at all. What bothered me was the walk-and-talk section before it. Surprisingly hard to control. You just hold forward, but you stop abruptly if you catch up to Skull Face too quickly.

 

[Corpsepyre]

I don't get if Volgin was working with Skull Face later on in the game or not? He sure was not at the beginning. Same for Mantis.

 

[Ruff]

If the "Truth" mirror scene is supposed to be a 'present day - MG1 ending' time lapse, how come Venom already has a FOX patch on his shoulder, standing in a bathroom confirmed to be in Outer Heaven from the very start. Mother base isn't outer heaven right?

 

[SolVanderlyn]

The slideshows were such a standout feature of a Metal Gear game. No other game would do that. Yeah, they were jarring, but I rather enjoyed hearing Baker talk about fifty pounds of MUF set to 1980's style documentary footage of nuclear disposal or Zero talk about the Cold War and the Cuban Missile Crisis set to old film reels. Weird? Yes. Amusing? Certainly.

If the "Truth" mirror scene is supposed to be a 'present day - MG1 ending' time lapse, how come Venom already has a FOX patch on his shoulder, standing in a bathroom confirmed to be in Outer Heaven from the very start. Mother base isn't outer heaven right?

The entire scene is full of hallucinatory imagery. He sees his old face in the mirror, the Diamond Dogs logo later transforms into the Outer Heaven logo, his horn is sticking way out of his head in the last view we see of him. I think it's a bunch of symbolic representation followed by a view of where he really is and what he really looks like. It's a "life flashing before your eyes" moment of sorts, showing his past and his accomplishments before finally reverting back to reality.

 

[ElFly]

I don't get if Volgin was working with Skull Face later on in the game or not? He sure was not at the beginning. Same for Mantis.

I am not sure how the Mantis connection worked. But the sahelanthropus cutscene means that Skull Face could sense Eli's lust for revenge too, so it must work both ways.

Which maaaay mean that Skull Face realized too that Venom was not the original Big Boss, and that's how Volgin knew, but it'd be the only indication of Skull Face knowing about the switch.

 

[Neiteio]

I don't get if Volgin was working with Skull Face later on in the game or not? He sure was not at the beginning. Same for Mantis.

Mantis is drawn to the negative energy of others. That's why he forms a bond with Volgin when he is brought into proximity with Volgin's remains. Both are Soviet experiments.

At the beginning of the game, Mantis and Volgin are on their own. Mantis likes to bring two enemies into close contact, which is why he brings Volgin to the hospital, seeking out Big Boss, the subject of Volgin's angst. XOF get killed in the crossfire.

However, Mantis is what led Skull Face to the hospital in the first place. From pg. 341 of the official Piggyback guide written in cooperation with KojiPro and Kojima himself:

"After a plane crash, in which The Third Child was the sole survivor, a chain of events led the boy's mind into sufficient proximity to sense Volgin's boundless enmity for Big Boss. With this, their association was forged: Volgin, a scorched carcass imbued with an overpowering obsession to kill the man who destroyed his dreams; and The Third Child, who could facilitate his desire for vengeance. This conjunction gave birth to the creature known as the Man on Fire."

"This was also, it transpires, the means by which Skull Face learned of Big Boss' location after a nine-year search. Having received word of their curious relationship through Cipher channels under his control, Skull Face took an interest in the case of the strange child and the former Soviet colonel. This led to a momentous development. ... When Skull Face investigated the particulars of the plane crash, he discovered that the events that led to its destruction began over Cyprus: caused, Ocelot later posits, by The Third Child sensing the latent anger of Big Boss far below as his flight passed overhead. Skull Face thought this anomaly worthy of further scrutiny -- which led to his discovery of Big Boss."

Again, it's from the official guide. Kojima himself. Later on, after the hospital incident, Skull Face tracks down Mantis and the Man on Fire and asserts his own negativity over them, giving him control of Mantis and, by extension, Volgin.

Skull Face later loses control when Eli comes along. Eli's hate is so strong that it overpowers Skull Face.

 

[Inferno313]

Man, I'd take the jeep rides and whoa-ooohs over slideshows any day. At least during the jeep ride I can look around and see stuff happening in the background.

Really, the jeep ride didn't bother me at all. What bothered me was the walk-and-talk section before it. Surprisingly hard to control. You just hold forward, but you stop abruptly if you catch up to Skull Face too quickly.

Yeah, I played the first half of MGS4 the weekend before MGSV and I'd take that jeep ride over any of the power-point presentations or mission briefings in that game. I can't take anyone who complains about this game's pacing and also identifies as a huge Metal Gear fan seriously. 2 and 4 in particular, while very good games, are so poorly paced.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Mantis worked like this:

Reacts to Volgin: Volgin controls him throughout the hospital in Cyprus. Volgin is brain dead and consumed by raw emotion so he just kills everyone, apparently, including XOF.

Reacts to Venom: V briefly summons a giant flaming whale to take out the XOF helicopter.

Reacts to Skull Face: Skull Face has stronger revenge mojo than Volgin, so he controls him from this point on.

Reacts to Eli: Eli has such a lust for revenge that he takes over Mantis at OKB Zero, which is why Skull Face freaks out.

Volgin seems to be totally subordinate to Mantis, probably because he's brain dead. So other people can control him while he's still tied to Volgin.

 

[BadWolf]

Yeah, I played the first half of MGS4 the weekend before MGSV and I'd take that jeep ride over any of the power-point presentations or mission briefings in that game. I can't take anyone who complains about this game's pacing and also identifies as a huge Metal Gear fan seriously. 2 and 4 in particular, while very good games, are so poorly paced.

Yeah I love all the games in the series but the jeep ride was such a more logical way to have a long conversation than a long cutscene in a room or a powerpoint presentation.

You still had camera control so it was also intense since it felt like something could go wrong at any moment.

 

[Neiteio]

Mantis worked like this:

Reacts to Volgin: Volgin controls him throughout the hospital in Cyprus. Volgin is brain dead and consumed by raw emotion so he just kills everyone, apparently, including XOF.

Reacts to Venom: V briefly summons a giant flaming whale to take out the XOF helicopter.

Reacts to Skull Face: Skull Face has stronger revenge mojo than Volgin, so he controls him from this point on.

Reacts to Eli: Eli has such a lust for revenge that he takes over Mantis at OKB Zero, which is why Skull Face freaks out.

Volgin seems to be totally subordinate to Mantis, probably because he's brain dead. So other people can control him while he's still tied to Volgin.

Volgin is completely subordinate to Mantis. The cassettes and guide confirm this. No Mantis, no Volgin.

And Mantis is subordinate to whoever is most negative in the room. In the game we see Mantis subordinate to:

- Volgin
- Big Boss
- Skull Face
- Shaboni
- Eli

This is also why the last encounter with the Man on Fire, in the side op where you retrieve his body, is a hallucination. The part where he comes to life, at least. He can't come to life in that scene since Mantis is with Eli back in Seychelles. That last encounter is a hallucination by Venom, presumably due to the traumatic expectation that he'll spring to life.

Also, this is cool:

 

[ElFly]

Mantis worked like this:

Reacts to Volgin: Volgin controls him throughout the hospital in Cyprus. Volgin is brain dead and consumed by raw emotion so he just kills everyone, apparently, including XOF.

Reacts to Venom: V briefly summons a giant flaming whale to take out the XOF helicopter.

Reacts to Skull Face: Skull Face has stronger revenge mojo than Volgin, so he controls him from this point on.

Reacts to Eli: Eli has such a lust for revenge that he takes over Mantis at OKB Zero, which is why Skull Face freaks out.

Volgin seems to be totally subordinate to Mantis, probably because he's brain dead. So other people can control him while he's still tied to Volgin.

That part is more or less clear, but I am curious if there's a feedback channel to Skull Face that allows him to sense Eli too.

 

[BadWolf]

That part is more or less clear, but I am curious if there's a feedback channel to Skull Face that allows him to sense Eli too.

Can't see a reason why there would be.

Skull Face just lost control and he knew perfectly well why he lost control.

 

[Neiteio]

That part is more or less clear, but I am curious if there's a feedback channel to Skull Face that allows him to sense Eli too.

Not sure I'm understanding your question, but Skull Face couldn't sense Eli through Mantis because as soon as Eli is present, he supersedes Skull Face for Mantis control.

The "Such a lust for revenge! Who?" line we love so much is actually an important plot point. Skull Face knows that only negativity can control Mantis. What he didn't anticipate is someone could feel more hate than himself.

 

[ElFly]

Not sure I'm understanding your question, but Skull Face couldn't sense Eli through Mantis because as soon as Eli is present, he supersedes Skull Face for Mantis control.

The "Such a lust for revenge! Who?" line we love so much is actually an important plot point. Skull Face knows that only negativity can control Mantis. What he didn't anticipate is someone could feel more hate than himself.

I read "such a lust for revenge" as SF sensing it too; otherwise, he'd just think that Mantis has betrayed him and is taking Sahelanthropus for his own.

 

[guybrushfreeman]

|OT3| Kazuhira Miller stars in Sequel to Good Burger

|OT3| Big Boss is Quiet

SUBSISTENCE |OT3| SPOILER: Spoiler Metal Gear Solid V (TPS) Spoiler Thread (Contains Spoilers, Thanos)

|OT3| ROCKET.... PUUUUUUUNCH

|OT3| Yes, that was the ending

|OT3| Revolver Ocelot's Wiki Admin Internship

|OT3| Game Over

Spoiler

Sorry

 

[Neiteio]

I read "such a lust for revenge" as SF sensing it too; otherwise, he'd just think that Mantis has betrayed him and is taking Sahelanthropus for his own.

This is what he's essentially saying:

"Someone must have a true desire for revenge to be more negative than me and take control of Mantis (and thus the Man on Fire and Sahelanthropus). But who could be more negative than me?"

In other words, Skull Face doesn't know it's Eli.

 

[Neiteio]

|OT3| Game Over

Spoiler

Sorry

|OT3| Never Be Game Over

 

[Timeaisis]

So who is the First and Second child? And what did BB/Venom do to Skull Face to cause he to have such a LUST FOR REVENGE WHOOOOO

 

[Kazuhira]

Hard to believe that kaz never managed to control mantis,at least for a brief moment.

 

[Oldest Snake]

Also, this is cool:

I'm pretty sure that's the only reason Skullface wears that stupid hamburglar mask in TPP.

 

[ElFly]

Hard to believe that kaz never managed to control mantis,at least for a brief moment.

The only time they come close, Eli is around.

But yeah.

 

[Reebot]

I'm pretty sure that's the only reason Skullface wears that stupid hamburglar mask in TPP.

It's to symbolize his feud with Kaz.

 

[BadWolf]

So who is the First and Second child? And what did BB/Venom do to Skull Face to cause he to have such a LUST FOR REVENGE WHOOOOO

We don't know but I think the idea is that there were more children being studied and that Mantis was the third amongst them.

Skull Face knows that Mantis attaches to those who have a lust for revenge. So for him to lose control there would need be someone that has an even greater lust for revenge than him. So is basically raging with that line as to who that person is.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

They also talk about how Eli is naturally more compatible with Mantis due to his brain not being fully developed yet, so I wonder if he truly felt more hatred than Skull Face or if the fact that he was a kid was what wrested control from him. Probably a combination of both.

Liquid has issues. Why is he so mad at this point in time? What did his caretakers tell him?

"lol you're a clone"

"What?"

"Yeah you have no parents. Also you're a shit clone, your brother is like you in every way but better hahaha"

*Liquid cries*

"You were cloned from a super soldier and he disowned you because you suck so bad"

 

[Timeaisis]

We don't know but I think the idea is that there were more children being studied and that Mantis was the third amongst them.

Skull Face knows that Mantis attaches to those who have a lust for revenge. So for him to lose control there would need be someone that has an even greater lust for revenge than him. So is basically raging with that line as to who that person is.

Ah, sorry I phrased that wrong. I meant to ask why Skull Face is so obsessed with revenge. What did BB do to him? That's the big unanswered question. We still don't know his motivation except for why he wants the eradicate English.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

Mantis reacting (or distracted) by Shabani preventing Volgin from killing Venom

That part is more or less clear, but I am curious if there's a feedback channel to Skull Face that allows him to sense Eli too.

Not sure I'm understanding your question, but Skull Face couldn't sense Eli through Mantis because as soon as Eli is present, he supersedes Skull Face for Mantis control.

The "Such a lust for revenge! Who?" line we love so much is actually an important plot point. Skull Face knows that only negativity can control Mantis. What he didn't anticipate is someone could feel more hate than himself.

Kids take priority or have stronger more rawer emotions as evidence by Shabani

 

[Death Metalist]

The part I quoted is from Skull Face's profile, which starts at the bottom of pg. 341.

The guidebook for this game is incredible, up there with the Bloodborne guide as being among the best I own (and I own a lot of guides).

Agreed. There are very interesting tidbits about everything in the game as well as the entire timeline itself of MGS including some surprising comments about MG1 & MG2. My brother has the guide but I took a look at it and was sold so I'll be getting mine as well at some point.

 

[SomTervo]

Yeah Kojima's really good at leaving important series-defining events out of the actual games.

Okay.

 

[Not Spaceghost]

Mantis worked like this:

Reacts to Volgin: Volgin controls him throughout the hospital in Cyprus. Volgin is brain dead and consumed by raw emotion so he just kills everyone, apparently, including XOF.

Reacts to Venom: V briefly summons a giant flaming whale to take out the XOF helicopter.

Reacts to Skull Face: Skull Face has stronger revenge mojo than Volgin, so he controls him from this point on.

Reacts to Eli: Eli has such a lust for revenge that he takes over Mantis at OKB Zero, which is why Skull Face freaks out.

Volgin seems to be totally subordinate to Mantis, probably because he's brain dead. So other people can control him while he's still tied to Volgin.

But then why didn't Miller control him ever? Miller is like the master of lusting for revenge.

 

[Neiteio]

They never say who the First Child and Second Child are, but it's kind of neat to think there might be other psychics out there (assuming psychic powers are what they all had in common). Also, I recall a tape noting that children seem to resonate more strongly with Mantis. Something to do with how their brains have developed. So even if, say, Kaz and Eli were equal in their levels of hate, Eli would probably win Mantis control by default.

It's worth noting that for the brief time we see him alive, Shaboni takes control of Mantis, which is what causes the Man on Fire to stop just short of killing Venom at the Devil's House.

I'm pretty sure that's the only reason Skullface wears that stupid hamburglar mask in TPP.

It's to symbolize his feud with Kaz.

LOL, you guys.

Ah, sorry I phrased that wrong. I meant to ask why Skull Face is so obsessed with revenge. What did BB do to him? That's the big unanswered question. We still don't know his motivation except for why he wants the eradicate English.

In the truth tape where Skull Face interrogates Paz, she asks him if he hates BB, and he says something to the effect that it's not quite hate for the man himself, implying it's more what the man represents. This part is my interpretation, but I think Skull Face hates BB as a former tool of Zero... and to a lesser degree because Zero and BB got all the glory while Skull Face and XOF went uncelebrated. (I'll have to check but the guide might've confirmed this.)

But Skull Face's main motivator is his hate for Zero and the Western cultural imperialism he represents. That's the true wellspring of negative emotion that allows him to control Mantis, and through Mantis, control the Man on Fire and Sahelanthropus.

 

[Xiraiya]

http://www.gamesradar.com/mgs-5-fans-are-trying-decode-secret-game-hidden-code/

Finally they're making progress.

"Boss!! I will load the main program. Please press return when the tape is prepared."
This is most interesting part.

There was a thing recently mentioning how when MGO comes out, that the rest of the story missions will be getting extreme and subsistance modes added, which made me wonder how that would work, if it's going to just blow out your mission list with duplicates, or if the mission layout will change to work a little bit more like GZ did and condense down to just the mission with the ability to select it in different modes, so if there is ever a time for stuff to be added to the game secretly, that would be it.

Especially since MGO has a version of Camp Omega set during TPP, it might be the first hint we'll get it in the story for uploading our saves finally like we were suppose to.

 

[Neiteio]

Mantis reacting (or distracted) by Shabani preventing Volgin from killing Venom

Kids take priority or have stronger more rawer emotions as evidence by Shabani

Yeah, I discussed this earlier in the thread.

I think in the cassettes they talk about how adults have some sort of substance that builds up in the brain that dampens their potential for psychic connections.

Children, on the other hand, have undeveloped brains that are much more potent in this respect.

So fellow kids have an advantage when it comes to controlling Mantis, as seen with Shaboni and Eli.

 

[Johndoey]

Did anyone ever try to give Quiet a pen and pad to write with?
Why didn't Code Talker just mention Quiet knew Navajo and act as a translator?
Why didn't Quiet just kill herself after she left Mother Base.
Why is Strangelove such a pathetic loser?

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

But then why didn't Miller control him ever? Miller is like the master of lusting for revenge.

In one of the tapes they mention that children's emotion have a stronger resonance with Mantis.

Which is why Shabani was able to hijack or distract Mantis from moving and why Eli was able to take control from Skull Face.

Neito said it better..

Yeah, I discussed this earlier in the thread.

I think in the cassettes they talk about how adults have some sort of substance that builds up in the brain that dampens their potential for psychic connections.

Children, on the other hand, have undeveloped brains that are much more potent in this respect.

So fellow kids have an advantage when it comes to controlling Mantis, as seen with Shaboni and Eli.

Miller's petty revenge couldn't beat out Skull Face's desire to wipe a language off the face of this earth, as well as the people who stole his homeland from him.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Still feel bad for Shaboni. Fuck you Skull Face.

 

[ElFly]

Did anyone ever try to give Quiet a pen and pad to write with?

She probably absorbed the ink, which is what you see around her eyes when she goes all focused

only half joking

 

[MMarston]

Did anyone ever try to give Quiet a pen and pad to write with?

they did


she refused

 

[Neiteio]

Did anyone ever try to give Quiet a pen and pad to write with?

While I think the plot is pretty airtight for the most part... I still can't explain why they didn't just give her the chance to communicate by pen and paper.

Or perhaps she did, and she thought it was somehow dangerous to communicate the situation. She confided in Code Talker, however.

There might be a reasonable explanation, but at the moment it looks like a possible plot hole, or something they conveniently ignored.

they did


she refused

Ah, really? I'm guessing Ocelot mentions this in a tape?

Ignore what I said above, then.

 

[Golnei]

Did anyone ever try to give Quiet a pen and pad to write with?

It was in an early tape, she refused to write. It might be justified at the beginning by her execution basically being guaranteed if the secret reason for her exposure came to light, but the ongoing efforts to communicate with her could have been handled much better over the course of the entire game.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

Did anyone ever try to give Quiet a pen and pad to write with?

Please write down that you are a ticking time bomb sent by Skull Face so we can shoot you now.

 

[wiibomb]

Volgin is completely subordinate to Mantis. The cassettes and guide confirm this. No Mantis, no Volgin.

And Mantis is subordinate to whoever is most negative in the room. In the game we see Mantis subordinate to:

- Volgin
- Big Boss
- Skull Face
- Shaboni
- Eli

This is also why the last encounter with the Man on Fire, in the side op where you retrieve his body, is a hallucination. The part where he comes to life, at least. He can't come to life in that scene since Mantis is with Eli back in Seychelles. That last encounter is a hallucination by Venom, presumably due to the traumatic expectation that he'll spring to life.

Also, this is cool:

whoa!!! for a game that is incomplete, that is some detail put in there! damn you Konami

 

[Blader]

But then why didn't Miller control him ever? Miller is like the master of lusting for revenge.

Miller has only wanted revenge for nine years though. Skull Face has wanted revenge for decades, and Eli, being a kid, is more compatible.

 

[Golnei]

Please write down that you are a ticking time bomb sent by Skull Face so we can shoot you now.

Though perhaps it'd have been interesting for her to sell them a cover story to make herself seem like less of a threat rather than remaining silent and risking the parasite plan failing before it had a chance to begin.

whoa!!! for a game that is incomplete, that is some detail put in there! damn you Konami

The attention to detail is probably a central reason why the game shipped incomplete.

 

[Johndoey]

Please write down that you are a ticking time bomb sent by Skull Face so we can shoot you now.

Clearly she didn't have to mention that part, but even if she refused initially it would have behooved them to ask again at some point.

 

[Neiteio]

Still feel bad for Shaboni. Fuck you Skull Face.

The whole Devil's House really put into perspective how fucked up things were. You have people strapped to gurneys, alive with their throats slit open, earbuds embedded inside, and parasites growing in their lungs. It's fucking evil.

What's especially unsettling is Zero's comments on that scheme. In the tape where he talks to Skull Face, he dismisses the ethnic cleansing experiments as the unnecessary work of his predecessors -- but he doesn't seem to disapprove of it on moral grounds.

Rather, Zero simply thinks his current work in genetics is a better means of controlling a population, since you can target certain individuals within the population.

Sometimes I think Zero is so far removed from the people he controls that the human cost is just completely lost on him.

 

[wiibomb]

The attention to detail is probably a central reason why the game shipped incomplete.

precisely, MGS has been also known for these little details around everywhere, it's a real shame they couldn't finish their vision, because the details of course would be there even if the story is not fully finished

The whole Devil's House really put into perspective how fucked up things were. You hae people strapped to gurneys, alive with their throats slit open, earbuds embedded inside, and parasites growing in their lungs. It's fucking evil.

What's especially unsettling is Zero's comments on that scheme. In the tape where he talks to Skull Face, he dismisses the ethnic cleansing experiments as the unnecessary work of his predecessors -- but he doesn't seem to disapprove of it on moral grounds.

Rather, Zero simply thinks his current work in genetics is a better means of controlling a population, since you can target certain individuals within the population.

Sometimes I think Zero is so far removed from the people he controls that the human cost is just completely lost on him.

that is exactly why his vision was never the same as The Boss' in the first place, he wanted a united world, but humans were just tools in his ideal, a mean and not the end

 

[Alienous]

Please write down that you are a ticking time bomb sent by Skull Face so we can shoot you now.

Please tell us why you stabbed that man in the mouth so that we don't have to guess at it.

Quiet is an idiot, that's all there is to it.

 

[Johndoey]

But seriously Skull Face is a terrible villain and his plan doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. A lot of the major languages spoken in the world are very similar in ways the parasites couldn't possibly be discerning enough to work properly, also many languages incorporate common words from other languages he would've killed the entire human race after everything was said and done.

Also his face doesn't resemble a skull at all.


Edit:

Please tell us why you stabbed that man in the mouth so that we don't have to guess at it.

Quiet is an idiot, that's all there is to it.

This is the issue, after a while she is clearly fully committed to Mother Base and Big Boss her keeping mum when she doesn't have to is nonsensical.
Also she could of handled the stabbing situation a bit more tactfully.

 

[Neiteio]

Please tell us why you stabbed that man in the mouth so that we don't have to guess at it.

Quiet is an idiot, that's all there is to it.

I obviously like the story, but that scene REALLY bothered me.

There had to be other ways to check the guy for parasites.

Driving a knife through his teeth is fucking ridiculous.

Probably the most disturbing thing I've seen in a game.

 

[Inferno313]

But seriously Skull Face is a terrible villain and his plan doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. A lot of the major languages spoken in the world are very similar in ways the parasites couldn't possibly be discerning enough to work properly, also many languages incorporate common words from other languages he would've killed the entire human race after everything was said and done.

Oh shit! Something in a Metal Gear game that couldn't actually exist in the real world!