SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO

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This. I love discussion but this thread is 80% a negativity train in a feedback loop/echo chamber. People only really seem to talk about what they dislike rather than what they like, even if I know the very same people like certain aspects of the story.

Can we all just list what we liked about the story? Naturally it'll be shorter than a list of dislikes, but that's OK.

There is nothing new here really.

When a trend is forming GAF tends to go ballistic with it. To the point of absolute ridiculousness...

Suddenly you just have to sound as if this game is the most shocking trash you had ever witnessed or else you are not in. So typically people start picking everything about the game and start mocking pretty much the entirety of it. Then they turn onto the creators/devs and they exercise their sarcasm skills till there is really nothing left to talk bad about it.

Then after a few months. Dust settles in. People are convinced this game is the worst game ever. But they read something about it, or watch a video, or start a new playthrough.

And then come the threads like "LTTP: MGSV is a great game" etc.

Its a very familiar GAF cycle. MGS2 drew the same (even worse comments) back then. Now suddenly its a masterpiece.

So really, you cant take 80% of the negative comments seriously anymore here. Not because people should like the game, far from it. Hate it all you like, i even have some serious problems with it. Just dont try to go borderline ridiculous with everything about it... its... just that... ridiculous.
 
Is there a link to some article that FULLY explains every aspect of the story in V with all spoilers intact? Want to read a thorough examination.
 
Well, it doesn't help when you can't argue against the negative points without being accused of attacking the person expressing the view or trying to stifle discussion.

Seems less about discussion than about venting to me.
Being passive aggressive is such a cowardly maneuver.
 
If Venom has all of the Big Boss memories why is he skeptical of psychic phenomena, he did fuck with the Sorrow and the Fury exploded into fire Dragon ghosts when he died.

BB was in a coma and rebuilt with parts of Solidus' body.

lol
The three comas of Big Boss (or four depending on how you view these things).

I just realized Big Boss spent most of his life in some form of coma didn't he? Solid Snake never fell into a coma.
 
If Venom has all of the Big Boss memories why is he skeptical of psychic phenomena, he did fuck with the Sorrow and the Fury exploded into fire Dragon ghosts when he died.

I don't get the hypnotherapy dumbness. He seems like an amnesiac, but he was implanted with all of BB's memories, it's dumb.
 
I don't get the hypnotherapy dumbness. He seems like an amnesiac, but he was implanted with all of BB's memories, it's dumb.

Didn't they just drug him tae fuck and spend almost 10 years hypnotising him with images, sounds and stories about Big Boss's life?

Plus head-shrapnel to make you more susceptible to suggestive images/hallucinations.

Plus high-end plastic surgery to make you look like the guy you've been hypnotised to believe you are

That would mess you up and in a crazy universe might make you basically like the second person.

There is nothing new here really.

When a trend is forming GAF tends to go ballistic with it. To the point of absolute ridiculousness...

Suddenly you just have to sound as if this game is the most shocking trash you had ever witnessed or else you are not in. So typically people start picking everything about the game and start mocking pretty much the entirety of it. Then they turn onto the creators/devs and they exercise their sarcasm skills till there is really nothing left to talk bad about it.

Then after a few months. Dust settles in. People are convinced this game is the worst game ever. But they read something about it, or watch a video, or start a new playthrough.

And then come the threads like "LTTP: MGSV is a great game" etc.

Its a very familiar GAF cycle. MGS2 drew the same (even worse comments) back then. Now suddenly its a masterpiece.

So really, you cant take 80% of the negative comments seriously anymore here. Not because people should like the game, far from it. Hate it all you like, i even have some serious problems with it. Just go borderline ridiculous with everything about it... its... just that... ridiculous.

Damn straight.

If Venom has all of the Big Boss memories why is he skeptical of psychic phenomena, he did fuck with the Sorrow and the Fury exploded into fire Dragon ghosts when he died.

Big Boss was critical of it back then, he just didn't say anything about it. For whatever reason he just doesn't want to deal with it this time.

Edit: that's not a great justification on my part, slightly misread your post - I reckon it's because the MGS3 stuff isn't explicitly psychic/telepathic, it's more physical and actively supernatural. It's the telepathy stuff which is new that he doesn't want to hear about.

It's hard to figure out what he knows cause the fucker refuses to talk, he just passively absorbs information.

I like to think he's got a deeply uncanny, unsettling feeling that he isn't himself and such doesn't comment on things. It doesn't feel "right". The only time we see him show true conviction is anything surrounding Quiet, and at the end when he punches the mirror – when he knows his true self.

It's well-written imo – whenever Venom does speak it's usually with a slight aloofness, as if he doesn't have total conviction about what he's saying. (Which he wouldn't subconsciously.) Then at the end when we hear lots from Big Boss himself, he has that edge of conviction and drive which he always had, that was missing from Venom. I thought that was great.

Edit: misread again - but it's actually easier to answer. We know what Venom knows, Zero/Ocelot explains it. He has been hypnotised/suggestion-trained with all of Big Boss's operations and training. It's pretty clear that from at least the Virtuous Mission onwards, basically everything Big Boss did was recorded closely. All of this has been repeatedly shown to Venom while in his drug-induced suggestive state. But he still doesn't like to talk about any of it.
 
I have a general question for everyone. Did you find anything in the game disturbing? I was kinda disappointed I didn't see any really disturbing visuals in the game.
The two scenes that really hit me were the Devil's House scene, and the quarantine scene. Seeing those invalids/children in the Devil's House was just all sorts of messed up. Any scene with children being tortured, killed or experimented on always makes me feel uneasy. And, of course, poor Shabani.

The quarantine zone scene was just harrowing. It's YOUR soldiers, YOUR men, YOUR comrades, and you're just forced to slaughter them. At the end, one of Venom's highest ranked soldiers looks like he might survive, but no. Kojima gives you a big middle finger and forces you to kill him, too.

Both horrible scenes.
 
hK6b.jpg
Beautiful.
 
There is nothing new here really.

When a trend is forming GAF tends to go ballistic with it. To the point of absolute ridiculousness...

Suddenly you just have to sound as if this game is the most shocking trash you had ever witnessed or else you are not in. So typically people start picking everything about the game and start mocking pretty much the entirety of it. Then they turn onto the creators/devs and they exercise their sarcasm skills till there is really nothing left to talk bad about it.

Then after a few months. Dust settles in. People are convinced this game is the worst game ever. But they read something about it, or watch a video, or start a new playthrough.

And then come the threads like "LTTP: MGSV is a great game" etc.

Its a very familiar GAF cycle. MGS2 drew the same (even worse comments) back then. Now suddenly its a masterpiece.

So really, you cant take 80% of the negative comments seriously anymore here. Not because people should like the game, far from it. Hate it all you like, i even have some serious problems with it. Just dont try to go borderline ridiculous with everything about it... its... just that... ridiculous.

Thanks for the explanation, it's nice to see some levelheaded member give an insightful perspective onto all of this.
 
The biggest problem with the game is tone. It wants to have it all, but it can't settle on a suitable tone to tell the story. Kojima got lost in his sandbox and, when it was all too late, the story still had major issues needing to be resolved. Issues that probably wouldn't be resolved with any extra development time. That's no surprise, it was always going to end like this; Kojima hacking at the lore, stripping away its integrity with each game. Too many retcons, twists and turns to contradict earlier games that whatever cohesion the mythology once had, it's long gone now. The lore exists as a strange stream of consciousness that isn't interested in character or logic any more.
 
If Venom has all of the Big Boss memories why is he skeptical of psychic phenomena, he did fuck with the Sorrow and the Fury exploded into fire Dragon ghosts when he died.


The three comas of Big Boss (or four depending on how you view these things).

I just realized Big Boss spent most of his life in some form of coma didn't he? Solid Snake never fell into a coma.

I thought I had read that the initial Big Boss coma (the one that MGS claims LET took place during) was a mistranslation and there wasn't a mention in the Japanese games of Big Boss having a coma during that time period. Is that true?
 
I thought I had read that the initial Big Boss coma (the one that MGS claims LET took place during) was a mistranslation and there wasn't a mention in the Japanese games of Big Boss having a coma during that time period. Is that true?

no, Kojima's creative way of aging snake was to have it happen like a reverse benjamin button. Instead of using a series of comas, he just went poof now youre old, snake
 
I like all console MGS and Ghost Babel, have not played PO, PO, Ac!d and twin snakes so can't comment on those.

I have never gone all the way down the rabbit hole because MGS stories (including 4) work at face value. Raiden some rookie that goes to find his way in life, works without me going "damn son I need to stop playing videogames and burn my Solid Snake shrine"

And still I agree with most "negative" arguments about MGSV; I don't believe when people says "its well written" when talking about MGS, I honestly dont belive or understand how people thinks its well written, not disregarding your opinion because we dont gree. I guess the game just does not push the same buttons for me as it does for someone else.

MGS, MGS3 are well written (both games can stand on its own unlike the sequels that have to build on them).
 
I like all console MGS and Ghost Babel, have not played PO, PO, Ac!d and twin snakes so can't comment on those.

I have never gone all the way down the rabbit hole because MGS stories (including 4) work at face value. Raiden some rookie that goes to find his way in life, works without me going "damn son I need to stop playing videogames and burn my Solid Snake shrine"

And still I agree with most "negative" arguments about MGSV; I don't believe when people says "its well written" when talking about MGS, I honestly dont belive or understand how people thinks its well written, not disregarding your opinion because we dont gree. I guess the game just does not push the same buttons for me as it does for someone else.

MGS, MGS3 are well written (both games can stand on its own unlike the sequels that have to build on them).

Imo all the games except 3 are badly written. However, people seem to think MGSV is especially bad when imo 4 is infinitely worse, and 1/2 are worse in their own idiosyncratic ways. Whenever I say 'well written' it's within the confines of MGS's already broadly shit narrative situation.
 

I really like this link, especially this paragraph:

In a lot of ways, MGSV is about the forgotten people that operate in the background to support the big players. Skullface, XOF, us as the players of these games, and Venom Snake; all of them were used to create the Metal Gear world as we know it, and all of them were lost to time. If the original games are about the titans of the universe, this game is about their shadows. Venom Snake disappears at the end of this game; he is washed away from history. Everyone thinks he was Big Boss, and that is all that is ever known of him. He quite literally disappears.
 
I like all console MGS and Ghost Babel, have not played PO, PO, Ac!d and twin snakes so can't comment on those.

I have never gone all the way down the rabbit hole because MGS stories (including 4) work at face value. Raiden some rookie that goes to find his way in life, works without me going "damn son I need to stop playing videogames and burn my Solid Snake shrine"

And still I agree with most "negative" arguments about MGSV; I don't believe when people says "its well written" when talking about MGS, I honestly dont belive or understand how people thinks its well written, not disregarding your opinion because we dont gree. I guess the game just does not push the same buttons for me as it does for someone else.

MGS, MGS3 are well written (both games can stand on its own unlike the sequels that have to build on them).
All the games are generally poorly written with brief moments of legitimate genius. Same with this game the few really good moments of writing are drowned under trash. The Miller hamburger chronicles are fantastic.


Kojima still doesn't understand that the Let program didn't produce clones of Big Boss, the fuckers are literally his sons, they aren't genetically identical or anything.
 
Imo all the games except 3 are badly written. However, people seem to think MGSV is especially bad when imo 4 is infinitely worse, and 1/2 are worse in their own idiosyncratic ways. Whenever I say 'well written' it's within the confines of MGS's already broadly shit narrative situation.

Eh I dont think MGS is bad, you could make a book or a comic out of it (in fact you have both)
 
I like all console MGS and Ghost Babel, have not played PO, PO, Ac!d and twin snakes so can't comment on those.

I have never gone all the way down the rabbit hole because MGS stories (including 4) work at face value. Raiden some rookie that goes to find his way in life, works without me going "damn son I need to stop playing videogames and burn my Solid Snake shrine"

And still I agree with most "negative" arguments about MGSV; I don't believe when people says "its well written" when talking about MGS, I honestly dont belive or understand how people thinks its well written, not disregarding your opinion because we dont gree. I guess the game just does not push the same buttons for me as it does for someone else.

MGS, MGS3 are well written (both games can stand on its own unlike the sequels that have to build on them).

MGS3 well writen ? lol it's the game that fuck up the entire lore of the series... compare to MGS2, the scenario was written by a 12 years old dude fan of James bond with an obsession for Rambo.

The scenario was simple, too simple with the cliché US vs URSS, the good and the wrong, the sexy James Bond girl, the bad guy really mean ( looks like Jaws too ), motorbike, Micheal Bay explosion etc etc... Kojima really want to have a bigger audience with this game and I won't talk about how ridiculous the boss are, they looks likes poor Power Rangers with pokemon abilities, they bring nothing to the stories besides from being the Cobra unit...

I still like the game overall but it's such a disappointment after the masterpiece that is MGS2.
 
MGS3 well writen ? lol it's the game that fuck up the entire lore of the series... compare to MGS2, the scenario was written by a 12 years old dude fan of James bond with an obsession for Rambo.

The scenario was simple, too simple with the cliché US vs URSS, the good and the wrong, the sexy James Bond girl, the bad guy really mean ( looks like Jaws too ), motorbike, Micheal Bay explosion etc etc... Kojima really want to have a bigger audience with this game and I won't talk about how ridiculous the boss are, they looks likes poor Power Rangers with pokemon abilities, they bring nothing to the stories besides from being the Cobra unit...

I still like the game overall but it's such a disappointment after the masterpiece that is MGS2.

When it comes to fiction, 9 times out of 10, simple is best. Especially when it comes to plot. I've always been of the opinion that plot should be treated as merely a tool in fiction to put your characters into interesting situations, because characters are the heart of good writing and compelling drama.

MGS2 has the most complex plot, but it doesn't do a whole lot dramatically interesting with that plot. It has the simplest characterization and is the most lacking in emotion in the series, I'd argue.

MGS3 has the simplest plot, but the strongest characterization in the series and the most effective dramatic and emotional beats.
 
MGS3 well writen ? lol it's the game that fuck up the entire lore of the series... compare to MGS2, the scenario was written by a 12 years old dude fan of James bond with an obsession for Rambo.

The scenario was simple, too simple with the cliché US vs URSS, the good and the wrong, the sexy James Bond girl, the bad guy really mean ( looks like Jaws too ), motorbike, Micheal Bay explosion etc etc... Kojima really want to have a bigger audience with this game and I won't talk about how ridiculous the boss are, they looks likes poor Power Rangers with pokemon abilities, they bring nothing to the stories besides from being the Cobra unit...

I still like the game overall but it's such a disappointment after the masterpiece that is MGS2.
The lore of the series is (or was) standing on top of "rookie soldier kills two times a war hero gone loco", which is why most people gives a free pass where MG and MG2 is concerned (simpler times). You may look at the cobra unit as bullshit, I think Vamp is a biger clown (walks on water, dives on toxic water, climbs a 30m pillar). Snake Eater has a simpler narrative vs the 20 minute long codec sessions of the patriots AI in the last part of MGS2 you are explosed to a lot of stuff there, that is hard to keep up during your first playthrough.

I'd say that's where Kojima succeded the most, one MGS for every taste.
 
MGS3 well writen ? lol it's the game that fuck up the entire lore of the series... compare to MGS2, the scenario was written by a 12 years old dude fan of James bond with an obsession for Rambo.

The scenario was simple, too simple with the cliché US vs URSS, the good and the wrong, the sexy James Bond girl, the bad guy really mean ( looks like Jaws too ), motorbike, Micheal Bay explosion etc etc... Kojima really want to have a bigger audience with this game and I won't talk about how ridiculous the boss are, they looks likes poor Power Rangers with pokemon abilities, they bring nothing to the stories besides from being the Cobra unit...

I still like the game overall but it's such a disappointment after the masterpiece that is MGS2.

Well this is disheartening to read. MGS3's is widely lauded as the most effective narrative in the series - albeit not as intelligent or thematically rich as MGS2.

I really don't see how it ruined the lore either. "Power Rangers with pokemon abilities"...? Wow. MGS2 introduced this ridiculous aspect - Vamp is literally a cartoon bad guy.

I think there are a lot of rose-tinted perspectives happening here (in this convo and ITT generally).
Also this:

When it comes to fiction, 9 times out of 10, simple is best. Especially when it comes to plot. I've always been of the opinion that plot should be treated as merely a tool in fiction to put your characters into interesting situations, because characters are the heart of good writing and compelling drama.

MGS2 has the most complex plot, but it doesn't do a whole lot dramatically interesting with that plot. It has the simplest characterization and is the most lacking in emotion in the series, I'd argue.

MGS3 has the simplest plot, but the strongest characterization in the series and the most effective dramatic and emotional beats.

MGS3 is the one where he made it about the characters first and foremost, and that makes it the most powerful. Very similar to Silent Hill 2 and The Last of Us in that regard.

I'd say that's where Kojima succeded the most, one MGS for every taste.

That's true, and it's another reason why I think MGSV is great. He disappointed many by approaching it in a different way to any of the other MGS games (the story is almost like an afterthought) but I think that's a strength, not a weakness.
 
MGS2 has the most complex plot, but it doesn't do a whole lot dramatically interesting with that plot. It has the simplest characterization and is the most lacking in emotion in the series, I'd argue.

MGS3 has the simplest plot, but the strongest characterization in the series and the most effective dramatic and emotional beats.

We can argue about this for sure, the only emotional beat that I have with MGS3 was The Boss speech at the end, I can't connect with the Cobra Unit, BB is bland and not as clever as SS, Ocelot was ridiculous, being a fangirl and all that stuff...

What message Kojima has in MGS3 ?

Well this is disheartening to read. MGS3's is widely lauded as the most effective narrative in the series - albeit not as intelligent or thematically rich as MGS2.

I really don't see how it ruined the lore either. "Power Rangers with pokemon abilities"...? Wow. MGS2 introduced this ridiculous aspect - Vamp is literally a cartoon bad guy.

But they can be explained in MGS2, in MGS3, they have supernatural power without a reason, it's just ridiculous, a dude that can communicate with bees like Candy man, a Spider man dude, an another who can talk with ghost, a cosmonaut that is using a flametrower to reach the moon lol... worse, they explode screaming theuir names... damn.
 
All the games are generally poorly written with brief moments of legitimate genius. Same with this game the few really good moments of writing are drowned under trash. The Miller hamburger chronicles are fantastic.


Kojima still doesn't understand that the Let program didn't produce clones of Big Boss, the fuckers are literally his sons, they aren't genetically identical or anything.

i think personally they are all badly written, but 1 and 2 exsist more in their era. its bad writing but enjoyable campy writing that fits when the game was released.

i think 4's writing is bad all around, and 5 doesnt have a story so who cares.

3 i thought hit the perfect tone in writing and story. everything seemed to gel with that game. id kill for that to be remade in the fox engine, more open jungle. thatd be amazing.
 
We can argue about this for sure, the only emotional beat that I have with MGS3 was The Boss speech at the end, I can't connect with the Cobra Unit, BB is bland and not as clever as SS, Ocelot was ridiculous, being a fangirl and all that stuff...

What message Kojima has in MGS3 ?

It's super funny reading this in a thread about MGSV.
 
We can argue about this for sure, the only emotional beat that I have with MGS3 was The Boss speech at the end, I can't connect with the Cobra Unit, BB is bland and not as clever as SS, Ocelot was ridiculous, being a fangirl and all that stuff...

What message Kojima has in MGS3 ?

What message Kojima has in MGS2?

MGS3:

> living life for yourself is more important than war or giving your life to a country
> ideology is more important than nationality
> the modern world operates on two-faced double bluffs and double agents, and people with power are vying to control it

MGS2 has some brilliant messages, too. MGS3 just offers different kinds of messages - or rather, the same messages in different packaging.
 
What message Kojima has in MGS2?

You can pass on more than just your genetics to future generations; you can pass on information too. The information we extract out of any given situation or even an entire lifetime is largely based on our own perceptions as opposed to 'reality'. Finding out what information to pass on and what not to is of key importance.
 
All this talk about "well written" got me motivated to finally purchase the metal gear graphic novels. There's one story by Matt Fraction that's very good (sons of Liberty #0)
 
You can pass on more than just your genetics to future generations; you can pass on information too. The information we extract out of any given situation or even an entire lifetime is largely based on our own perceptions as opposed to 'reality'. Finding out what information to pass on and what not to is of key importance.

We can add the very popular literary "son surpassing the father" theme or Kojima directly speaking to you, saying that we should basically live our own lives, and not be chained down by the names our lives we've been given. To choose our own paths in life.
 
All this talk about "well written" got me motivated to finally purchase the metal gear graphic novels. There's one story by Matt Fraction that's very good (sons of Liberty #0)

I can't watch the MGS2 graphic novel because there is no Cam Clarke. Reading it might be cool.
 
Remember that time Gray Fox helped kill the only woman he ever loved because he is an idiot. Also
Did they ever mention why Solid Snake never got a new title or did he just tell th to shove it?
 
BTW, didn't Code Talker say that the vocal cord parasites don't infect human hosts before they reach puberty?

I think they can still infect human hosts at any age, but they aren't a risk as they can't begin to copulate in prepubescent children. Which is also why tracking down Eli is such a priority for them - along with Sahelanthropus, his English vocal cord parasite would inevitably become active as he aged; and they choose to abandon him to die after seeing him show symptoms.
 
You can pass on more than just your genetics to future generations; you can pass on information too. The information we extract out of any given situation or even an entire lifetime is largely based on our own perceptions as opposed to 'reality'. Finding out what information to pass on and what not to is of key importance.

(I know, I was just throwing it back at the guy :P I think both MGS2 and MGS3 have great, valid themes/messages.)
 
Remember that time Gray Fox helped kill the only woman he ever loved because he is an idiot. Also
Did they ever mention why Solid Snake never got a new title or did he just tell th to shove it?

Hahah "For taking down Big Boss, we bestow upon you the title of Biggest Boss."

"Nah man that's fucking dumb" *Snake jumps on a skateboard and ollies outta there*
 
So if Venom is supposed to represent us-the player, him smashing the mirror at the end probably was pretty much everyone's reaction over not getting to play as the real Big Boss. Meta Gear Solid V: The Phantom Boss.
 
I enjoyed that ending.

Wish I had bothered to do mission 40 to give Quiet Sniper Wolf's outfit. It manages to show off her chest, yet look like something a soldier would wear at the same time! Incredible
 
So if Venom is supposed to represent us-the player, him smashing the mirror at the end probably was pretty much everyone's reaction over not getting to play as the real Big Boss. Meta Gear Solid V: The Phantom Boss.

I think that not only Venom represent the player, but it is also the symbol of Big Boss becoming a "demon" by using his soldiers for his own personal goal of creating Zanzibar Land, and thus becoming the very thing he hated when killing The Boss
 
Wish I had bothered to do mission 40 to give Quiet Sniper Wolf's outfit. It manages to show off her chest, yet look like something a soldier would wear at the same time! Incredible

It'd ruin her entire arc to give her an outfit like that or her XOF one from the beginning. She's not supposed to look like an ordinary soldier, but a shell of one whose body has been defiled in retribution for her monstrous, sadistic acts. For the majority of the game, she's defined by penance - lying prostrate before those she had wronged, completely at their mercy. The nakedness is a symbolic offering of her body for judgment, as she clearly regrets her former life as an assassin without conscience. Her body, once an instrument of indiscriminate violence; is given a new, benevolent purpose through its use by the man she once tried to destroy; and only after she repents her sins and is transformed into an empathetic soul willing to die for others is she worthy of being called a 'human' and not an instrument of violence, symbolised by the ability to give her clothes only coming very late in the game, immediately before her departure.
 
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