BigEvilTurtle
Banned
Could someone post an example of reused assets? UNSC design looks homogeneous in this game but not insofar as reused assets. I think the maps look great albeit a little lacking in great variety.
Halo 5 Multiplayer Coverage! (no campaign spoilers)
- Thread starter FUNKNOWN iXi
- Start date
The big thing being overlooked here with regards to map design is the advancement in rendering tech. It's not a lore thing, it's a horsepower thing. Halo 3 maps have a ton more crap in them and are "busier" than CE maps because the tech of the time allowed it. The same thing is at work here now, though in my opinion (and others' it seems) it damages the atmosphere and aesthetic. There was a simplistic beauty in many of the CE-3 maps that has just been lost by the ability to cram as many things and as much detail as possible into what we see on screen now. It's particularly bad with UNSC maps because they're going for as realistic a look as possible and, well, it's just ugly and uninteresting. But if you like metal pipes and grates in your maps, it looks like you're in for a treat with Halo 5.
QuantumSquid
Member
Those screenshots are from the beta unless I'm mistaken, and when you're actually running around those environments in 60fps, it's pretty easy to see what's going on. A screenshot designed to fit all the objects in from one angle looks busy, but in-game it is not an issue.
Maps look great to me. I don't think I'll have a problem once I've played some and have time to learn them. From what I've seen of competitive play, plenty of great players will learn the sightlines and levels just fine. Even in the worst cases, I still found identifying enemies and teammates in Halo 4 was much easier than any other shooter on the market, and it wasn't particularly close.
BigEvilTurtle
Banned
Twilight Gap
Member
The maps do not need to be this busy.
There is way too much visual noise.
Jesus, I can barely make out the platforms in this screenshot.
ArchedThunder
Banned
A. They didn't simplify the art direction since the beta
B. The point is it's unnecessary visual noise that can confuse new players and make the map visually unappealing. Simple, pretty and readable is better than complexity for the sake of complexity.
Bungie's art design was clearly inspired by '80s sci-fi films.
343's art design looks like it's inspired by modern video games.
Halo's art was always derivative, but at least it used to stand out among other video games. Even though it tends to look quite nice, I can't say the same about 343's art. Especially not now that we get to play as an Isaac Clarke cosplayer.
[insert a picture of a crying Grunt, sadly sucking on a food nipple, alone and forgotten]
ArchedThunder
Banned
Because UNSC design wasn't metal pipes and grates before.
You can't actually think that that is in any way comparable to the way Halo 5 has pipes and grates everywhere, can you?
No it isn't, look at the center and right, there is a ridiculous amount of unnecessary visual noise.
BigEvilTurtle
Banned
No I'm saying it's always been a common theme, just that Halo 5 seems to have naturally evolved the aesthetic with more detail. It doesn't look saturated with detail to me, especially during gameplay. But maybe that's because I have good vision? I don't know.
My sentiments, pretty much.
The pipes inside the structures? I'm not being dense, I really do not see the big deal, and during gameplay, none of this stuff ever caused me a problem, and I played the beta A LOT.
LegalEagleMike
Member
as long as the dlc maps are good I will be content. I would like some more variety but everything I have watched seems great.
lol such an exaggeration
I don't remember the streamers name that showed it off, but here's a tiny explanation. Will try to find a video.
The ramp (bottom middle of this picture) has a panel you can shoot on the non-angled side. If you shoot it, the ramp will just lower down and that's it. Making the area flat. There's like 4 of these on the map I believe.
BigEvilTurtle
Banned
Exact sentiments. I wanna see more variety in setting! Give us something weird like a deserted grotto, a desert temple, an alien jungle, a delapidated city, etc. There's an infinite amount of possibility in the Halo universe yet we've got a plethora of UNSC themed maps in UNSC themed areas.
Twilight Gap
Member
lol no. There are dozens of horizontal planes on that map visible at any given moment and it conflicts with its readability.
This is not about preferring 343's art style to Bungie's. This is Level Design 101, and frankly at this point I would question one's knowledge of the subject if they are unable to discern what the problems with these maps are.
ArchedThunder
Banned
My vision is just fine, thank you very much.
Pipes, indents, outdents and all sorts of geometric detail that serves no purpose but for 343 to attempt to make the graphics look better because in their minds more polygons=better. It's not just about readability, it's also about it just being gaudy and ugly.
QuantumSquid
Member
If we're strictly talking about visual variety here then I'm all for discussion, but I think we should all just wait for the game to be out and available for us to play for ourselves before we judge if the designs are too busy to understand. It's not like we haven't spent enough time judging Halo 5 from compressed screenshots already.
Fkn lol, get that application into 343 and show them how it's done then. Bungie too while you're at it.
Final Verdict
Member
Visual noise was never a problem for me in the beta except for in Truth where all the fancy lighting could get in the way.
But I still don't see it as a big problem. Whenever I'm actually playing, I barely notice much of the details, but maybe that's just me.
But I still don't see it as a big problem. Whenever I'm actually playing, I barely notice much of the details, but maybe that's just me.
TharpDaddy
Member
I think the maps looks great. I didn't have a big problem with them in the beta.
ebullientprism
Member
The maps do not need to be this busy.
There is way too much visual noise.
Yep. And its not just this map, almost every map looks way too cluttered.
Compare that to some of the Halo 3 stuff, same theme of modern buildings, ledges, walkways etc.
It just looks a billion times cleaner.
I think I'd be more sympathetic to these complaints about "visual noise' if we were talking about effects that literally obstructed your vision, like lens flare from the sun on one side of the map.
But grates? Pipes?... Really? Y'all really distracted, or having difficulty navigating these maps because of things like that?
And I don't think this is a complaint exclusive to 343i; I remember similar things being said about some of Bungie's map designs as their artists were afforded more creative freedom by the improved technology.
But grates? Pipes?... Really? Y'all really distracted, or having difficulty navigating these maps because of things like that?
And I don't think this is a complaint exclusive to 343i; I remember similar things being said about some of Bungie's map designs as their artists were afforded more creative freedom by the improved technology.
...Scatter...
Banned
I'd like a level that's a outer colony outside market. Food carts fully destructible. Rickshaws. Random civilians of human and alien races getting in the way, etc.
Not as the norm of course, but just as a one-off test map for something crazy. Like a wild card.
Not as the norm of course, but just as a one-off test map for something crazy. Like a wild card.
Same. The level itself is the noise. Once I figure out where you can and cannot clamber up to and where the pits or edges of the map are, I'm pretty much focused and am not paying attention to graphics at all.
Twilight Gap
Member
It's easy to dismiss it when it personally doesn't bother you, but I'm not interested in discussing opinions when it comes to level design. I wouldn't waste my time explaining it if the subject wasn't something I was invested in. I'll be sure to share that knowledge in a more elaborate manner in the coming months.
Gravemind IV
Member
Anyone else been using the 'Locke' controller and having an issue with the triggers being different from one another? As in, one having more resistance when being pushed down than the other? It's not major, but I have this annoying tendency to focus on it for some reason.
...Scatter...
Banned
That's what you get for not going with Chief
ArchedThunder
Banned
If you don't care about the visual noise because you "Don't pay attention to the graphics" then why even bother replying to the people that do have a problem with it. Some of us actually care about the art direction, and if you don't then what is the point of you saying "I don't care"?
VincentMatts
Member
I completely agree with him. If you guys cant see the problem then i dunno what to tell you. Ive seen this problem since Halo4. The maps all lacked an identity. There were no Blood gultches, Beaver Creeks, Ascensions or Lockouts in Halo4 other than maybe Haven. And at no time would i say "ah yes, i love this map" when playing 4. Hardly ever. That to me is a big problem.
Let me put it to you this way, if 343 asked me right now which maps from halo id wanna bring back to 5, id give them a list from Halo1-2-3 instead of picking one (other than haven) from 4.
That to me says everything about 343s map design.
Twilight Gap
Member
Truth is one of the cleaner maps in the game (lending that primarily to its theme), but the lighting was definitely part of the problem with its visual clarity. I think they toned that down a lot.
Because we "look silly" or something. This is not an inconsequential discussion about armor or the BR scope.
And they would update those maps and add more noise to them. Look at the H2A maps, there's just more art every where, that's just how it is. There's a ton of maps in Destiny that are just littered with shit all over the ground to get stuck on.
You give the artists more freedom and power, that's what happens.
Gravemind IV
Member
I have them both, #teamchief. But I was unboxing the console and I just started out with Locke's for now.
...Scatter...
Banned
Zoba you play Destiny like me right? It's the same there.
If you have an MS store near you maybe they can swap you out?
Is it the left trigger that feels off to you? Somebody was complaining about something like that a short while back; went through multiple returns 'n exchanges over the exact same issue with these newer controllers.
Twilight Gap
Member
That's part of the reason 90% of the maps in Destiny are complete garbage - there's literally garbage everywhere. Even if it isn't on the floor, it can still exist in the walls.
Well Bungie does it on purpose. Sun glare is a feature.
:|
ArchedThunder
Banned
The H2A maps strike a pretty good balance between detail and simplicity I think. Besides, other games having a similar issue doesn't suddenly make it not an issue.
...Scatter...
Banned
Half this thread complains about too much noise, the other half complains it's too plain.
Twilight Gap
Member
If anyone is interested in where I "learned" most of this from
Hardy Lebel, one of the designers for Halo Combat Evolved, did a webinar about Map Design earlier this year for ForgeHub.
http://teambeyond.net/forum/topic/8945-free-level-design-webinar-with-hardy-lebel/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEhdyzjVVqk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Knb-1uJJktA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbhAPBM7d8M
His blog: http://www.hardylebel.com/2015/01/level-design-webinar-free/
So i'm not talking out of my ass. If we want to talk about credentials, I'd listen to this guy. In particular, he mentions art style and how it pertains to a map being clear to the player.
Hardy Lebel, one of the designers for Halo Combat Evolved, did a webinar about Map Design earlier this year for ForgeHub.
http://teambeyond.net/forum/topic/8945-free-level-design-webinar-with-hardy-lebel/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEhdyzjVVqk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Knb-1uJJktA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbhAPBM7d8M
His blog: http://www.hardylebel.com/2015/01/level-design-webinar-free/
So i'm not talking out of my ass. If we want to talk about credentials, I'd listen to this guy. In particular, he mentions art style and how it pertains to a map being clear to the player.
Yes. Honestly, Halo 4 and 5 are more annoying than other Halo's for me when it comes to visual fidelity. The lights, smoke, and constant little ledges and things make me thing there's a solid object where there might not be and vice versa.
I don't ever remember complains about Bungie's maps like that besides detail messing up nade throws.
VincentMatts
Member
Then they need better artists.
Apollo Cree
Member
Noisy doesn't necessarily mean massive.
That's a big one. In Halo 3, every piece of real estate was useable. Less so in Reach and even less in Halo 4.
Gravemind IV
Member
Yeah, it's the left. Just seems to be the norm then, no point in swapping them out (seeing as I have no MS store near). It's a slight difference, but it's still noticeable.
ArchedThunder
Banned
People are complaining because everything looks the same, the Human aesthetic is plain because it's white and metal and it has very little verity, the large amounts of visual noise doesn't make it not plain. It looks boring, there isn't anything visually interesting or pleasing in the human aesthetic.
natethegreat409
Member
I get what you're saying.... but those screenshots are last gen. If they released something so bland as this now, people would be whining about it being last gen and not innovative.Yep. And its not just this map, almost every map looks way too cluttered.
Compare that to some of the Halo 3 stuff, same theme of modern buildings, ledges, walkways etc.
It just looks a billion times cleaner.
Sometimes developers just can't win it seems.
awesomegamername
Banned
Fantastic, I can't wait to watch!