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[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Nader had nowhere near anything resembling "mainstream press" representation in the last two decades, and the media landscape has changed a hell of a lot since he ran. I think people underestimate the amount of new and younger voters who don't respond to polling and who aren't able to be predicted by the same tired old metrics that have always been used.

People way overestimate the extent to which Nader was actually a factor in Gore's loss. Gore lost because he was such a bad candidate he could barely poll ahead of George W. Bush of all people, not because a small fraction of leftists voted for a better candidate.

 

[User 463088]

There's also a far more pragmatic reason Sanders will not run as an Independent.

He'd lose his position within the Democratic caucus. He would lose most if not all of his committee seats, specifically the Senate Budget Committee. He'd have absolutely nothing to gain and everything to lose.

 

[The Technomancer]

WE ALL WANT A DEMOCRAT IN OFFICE

Jeeeeeeesusssss

This guy doesn't

I care about this country too much to vote for either one of these parties. That's called integrity. I could give a shit about either of the republicrats.

 

[teruterubozu]

When the argument is "neither side is any better then the other, its better to just sit out" in spite of all of the evidence to the contrary that the selection of political leader has tangible impacts on people's lives? Sorry but that shit doesn't fly

Man, Huelen got you guys real upset, huh.

 

[Future PhaZe]

Not a big Hilary fan--don't trust her on foreign policy in the slightest and I imagine her domestic policies will barely move the progressive needle at all.

I wouldn't ever go so far as to compare her to a third Obama term by any means.

 

[Konka]

Ah yes, the Bernie White Privilege argument. Nothing classier than accusing fellow Democrats of deliberately marginalizing people.

I'd say there is a pretty big difference between people who are card carrying democrats to the core and much of Sander's coalition.

 

[see5harp]

I mean, I'm sorry but this is just stupid. I don't even need to come up with some big list of important Obama accomplishments, just look at one: the expansion of Medicaid under the ACA has tangible, real positive impacts on the lives of millions of Americans. Are you saying that that good, those lives don't matter? Aren't important enough for you?

People's lives really do hang in the balance of power

I voted for Obama because I felt like he gave me good reasons to do so. Hillary though? Hillary? What has she even suggested her big platform thing is? What does she even stand for? Bernie Sanders was pie in the sky but this bitch Hillary straight up said that college students could work a few days a week to pay for college. Come on now that's even more absurd than saying banks should pay for college.

 

[JustenP88]

This guy doesn't

This is a statistically significant sample of the electorate. I'm stumped. Well played.

 

[eBay Huckster]

People way overestimate the extent to which Nader was actually a factor in Gore's loss. Gore lost because he was such a bad candidate he could barely poll ahead of George W. Bush of all people, not because a small fraction of leftists voted for a better candidate.

Technically speaking, Gore lost because Jeb's administration illegally purged thousands of voters from the Florida rolls less than a year before the election.

 

[lobdale]

People way overestimate the extent to which Nader was actually a factor in Gore's loss. Gore lost because he was such a bad candidate he could barely poll ahead of George W. Bush of all people, not because a small fraction of leftists voted for a better candidate.

The clear answer is making Bernie the VP on the ticket, even though it'll never happen. That'd pretty well ensure a Dem victory.

 

[Foffy]

How on earth was this precipitated on Hillary's imminent victory in the primaries?

It's not that Bernie losing makes this an oligarchy, as if this suddenly happened.

It's that Hillary winning guarantees the oligarchy we already have will stay. At least Bernie's sincerity, however incompatible it is to the metastasized political body, acknowledge the problem. Would he fix it? Probably not, but I would expect more from him than Hillary, even if it's just in words.

How can Hillary do the same when her top five donors are the problem? You need to be on some major fucking drugs to assume something notable and worthy will happen. And maybe you need to share that, too.

 

[Armaros]

It's not that Bernie losing makes this an oligarchy, as if this suddenly happened.

It's that Hillary winning guarantees the oligarchy we already have will stay. At least Bernie's sincerity, however incompatible it is to the metastasized political body, acknowledging the problem.

How can Hillary do the same when her top five donors are the problem? You need to be on some major fucking drugs to assume something notable and worthy will happen. And maybe you need to share that, too.

And the solution for that is to elect a Republican if Bernie loses.

Of course

 

[teruterubozu]

I'd say there is a pretty big difference between people who are card carrying democrats to the core and much of Sander's coalition.

Really? A big difference? Once the general elections starts Bernie will be a distant memory.

It's like this is everyone's first election here or something. Primaries happen, people support different people, then they usually come together Jeez-louise.

 

[titiklabingapat]

Nader had nowhere near anything resembling "mainstream press" representation in the last two decades, and the media landscape has changed a hell of a lot since he ran. I think people underestimate the amount of new and younger voters who don't respond to polling and who aren't able to be predicted by the same tired old metrics that have always been used.

Where were they in 2014?

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

It goes on and on. There are plenty of Bernie supporters who want to see a "course correction" (i.e. elect the GOP and let the country burn to prove how shitty their politics are) if Bernie doesn't get the nomination. The only problem with their strategy is that is demonstrably doesn't work (case and point Kansas).

It's the masochist liberal syndrome. They would rather suffer under the ideology they completely disagree with than take any watered down version of their own ideology.

 

[The Technomancer]

This is a statistically significant sample of the electorate. I'm stumped. Well played.

I mean, we're literally responding to people saying that it doesn't make a difference, both parties are the same. I'm not sure what your point is here

 

[Konka]

I voted for Obama because I felt like he gave me good reasons to do so. Hillary though? Hillary? What has she even suggested her big platform thing is? What does she even stand for? Bernie Sanders was pie in the sky but this bitch Hillary straight up said that college students could work a few days a week to pay for college. Come on now that's even more absurd than saying banks should pay for college.

I'm sorry, but I got my Bachelor's and Master's. She's proposing 10 hours a week. I worked more than that.

Really? A big difference? Once the general elections starts Bernie will be a distant memory.

It's like this is everyone's first election here or something.

Yeah, going by his demographic support the majority of them don't vote.

 

[Stet]

It's not that Bernie losing makes this an oligarchy, as if this suddenly happened.

It's that Hillary winning guarantees the oligarchy we already have will stay. At least Bernie's sincerity, however incompatible it is to the metastasized political body, acknowledging the problem.

How can Hillary do the same when her top five donors are the problem? You need to be on some major fucking drugs to assume something notable and worthy will happen. And maybe you need to share that, too.

Bernie is still part of the government. It's like a presidential primary occurs and you forget all about the other two branches.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Technically speaking, Gore lost because Jeb's administration illegally purged thousands of voters from the Florida rolls less than a year before the election.

Not to mention procedural bullshit with the ballots. Gore lost because Bush gamed the system better than him, not because Ralph Nader grabbed a small cross-section of liberal voters who may not have even voted for him in Nader's absence.

 

[Future PhaZe]

I voted for Obama because I felt like he gave me good reasons to do so. Hillary though? Hillary? What has she even suggested her big platform thing is? What does she even stand for? Bernie Sanders was pie in the sky but this bitch Hillary straight up said that college students could work a few days a week to pay for college. Come on now that's even more absurd than saying banks should pay for college.

Not a Hilary fan--and your larger point is respected, but you're really taking that quote out of context and discrediting your opinion with this post

 

[Veritigo_X]

I voted for Obama because I felt like he gave me good reasons to do so. Hillary though? Hillary? What has she even suggested her big platform thing is? What does she even stand for? Bernie Sanders was pie in the sky but this bitch Hillary straight up said that college students could work a few days a week to pay for college. Come on now that's even more absurd than saying banks should pay for college.

I can see you're a well rounded individual.

 

[eBay Huckster]

but this bitch Hillary straight up said that college students could work a few days a week to pay for college. Come on now that's even more absurd than saying banks should pay for college.

Reminder that 80% of undergrads already work 20-30 hours a week to pay for college.

Her position's still an improvement over the status quo.

 

[Foffy]

And the solution for that is to elect a Republican if Bernie loses.

Of course

Where did I say Republican in any of the posts I made? Why would you vote for someone who would easily be even more of a problem?

Do you not see they're the problem, too? In fact, they're worse.

This is a pick your poison scenario. How much greed do you want the top to get away with? "Very little" is not in the cards.

 

[Armaros]

Bernie is still part of the government. It's like a presidential primary occurs and you forget all about the other two branches.

It's fine if most states and local governments, the Supreme Court, and congress and the presidency all become fully Republican.

At least they can say they voted for Bernie.

Where did I say Republican in any of the posts I made?

Do you not see they're the problem, too? In fact, they're worse.

This is a pick your poison scenario. How much greed do you want the top to get away with? "Very little" is not in the cards.

I would stick with the party of non-crazies and not work to elect a Republican because ideological purity.

Which is what a independent Bernie run would be.

 

[The Technomancer]

I'm sorry, but I got my Bachelor's and Master's. She's proposing 10 hours a week. I worked more than that.

Yeah the negative reaction to that bugged me as well. I did 20 hours a week all throughout my engineering degree, and it was rough, but 10 hours a week would not have been that bad. I can see the whole "not everyone can get a job" argument, but I would have to imagine that any real plan would include guaranteed work placement in like, the library or something, not just "if you can't find a 10 hour job your SOL, sorry kids"

 

[JustenP88]

I mean, we're literally responding to people saying that it doesn't make a difference, both parties are the same. I'm not sure what your point is here

You're using random loons to paint the intentions of a significant number of people. You're also trying to pre-heat some hot excuses for an unlikely Hillary loss in the general. It's everywhere it's every thread and it's annoying.

 

[teruterubozu]

Yeah, going by his demographic support the majority of them don't vote.

Well that's youth in general, not just Democrats (or Bernie supporters).

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Not only did that user completely misunderstand the context of the quote and what it actually means, they throw in a some name calling just for good measure. Well done.

 

[Foffy]

Yeah the negative reaction to that bugged me as well. I did 20 hours a week all throughout my engineering degree, and it was rough, but 10 hours a week would not have been that bad. I can see the whole "not everyone can get a job" argument, but I would have to imagine that any real plan would include guaranteed work placement in like, the library or something, not just "if you can't find a 10 hour job your SOL, sorry kids"

Because bootstraps worked for you doesn't mean it's an acceptable solution.

Better than what we have? Sure. But it's still absolute vomit when compared to the rest of the developed world, where we are consistently back of the fucking line.

 

[HylianTom]

It can.

We elect a republican president that appoints more conservatives justices and gay marriage gets overturned.
People forget that gay marriage was a 5-4 decision.

Hell, this goes beyond marriage. This is far more fucked up than many realize. If we were to ask the GOP candidates who their favorite Supreme Court justices are, they'd name justices who are more than happy with the idea of throwing consenting adults in jail for private sexual acts.

The judges the GOP would appoint would set us back for a long, long time. Progressivism would be dead for at least a generation. I don't quite think that these my-way-or-the-highway folks (and I do hope that they are small in number) understand this.

If you're in a ruby red or a deep blue state, I can understand a vanity vote for the Green Party. But if you're in a state that's at all in question over which way it'll tilt, you just don't fuck around with the chances.

Man, Huelen got you guys real upset, huh.

I'll admit.. there are few folks for whom I hold more political contempt than for LGBT voters who're willing to risk others getting thrown in jail out of some sort of perverse political temper tantrum, or out of greed for tax cuts over human rights (Log Cabiners). I will try to bite my tongue, lest I say something too far.

 

[see5harp]

I'm sorry, but I got my Bachelor's and Master's. She's proposing 10 hours a week. I worked more than that.



Yeah, going by his demographic support the majority of them don't vote.

You probably didn't pay for your college tuition, your apartment, your books and your food on your 20-30 hour a week job. Neither did I. I'm assuming that Hillary means that 10 hours a week would somehow translate to affordable college. Was college affordable because you worked 30 hours a week? come on dude stop lying to yourself. It's like 1500 a month to live in most dorms.

 

[Protein]

How did you guys even win the war for independence?

"Oh, no the british army is coming It's experienced, well equipped and huge in numbers. Better lay down and worship the king again."

Even a bunch of tea tossers can fight an empire.

They believe a "Left Scare" will sour the country away from left-wing politics for the foreseeable future and usher in a right-wing Reaganesque Apocalypse, dooming the barebones progress we've made this past decade or so. Reagan really crippled the Democratic party. They continue to live up to the 'spineless' stereotype under the guise of compromising, pragmatic liberals, yet continue to fold like cheap suits against sociopathic conservative politicians.

Overall, I agree that it's better to be seen as a cowardly, pragmatic person than a foolish ideological one. Bernie has a very small chance. As a former Wendy Davis campaign supporter, I know how "small chances" work out in elections. You get steamrolled by numbers.

I can understand the fact that Congress is as hard-right as ever and it's impractical for a democratic socialist to make any sort of significant change right now, but I don't understand the personal attacks and equating Sanders supporters to Ron Paul supporters.

 

[Bronx-Man]

Hell, this goes beyond marriage. This is far more fucked up than many realize. If we were to ask the GOP candidates who their favorite Supreme Court justices are, they'd name justices who are more than happy with the idea of throwing consenting adults in jail for private sexual acts.

The judges the GOP would appoint would set us back for a long, long time. Progressivism would be dead for at least a generation. I don't quite think that these my-way-or-the-highway folks (and I do hope that they are small in number) understand this.

If you're in a ruby red or a deep blue state, I can understand a vanity vote for the Green Party. But if you're in a state that's at all in question over which way it'll tilt, you just don't fuck around with the chances.

I don't know what supreme court justices are, so i'll just say that both sides exactly are the same

 

[Konka]

You probably didn't pay for your college tuition, your apartment, your books and your food on your 20-30 hour a week job. Neither did I.

What does that have to do with anything? Her plan isn't that you pay for all those things working 10 hours a week.

You probably didn't pay for your college tuition, your apartment, your books and your food on your 20-30 hour a week job. Neither did I. I'm assuming that Hillary means that 10 hours a week would somehow translate to affordable college. Was college affordable because you worked 30 hours a week? come on dude stop lying to yourself. It's like 1500 a month to live in most dorms.

Well now it's obvious you haven't even read her plan.

 

[Trojita]

I like Bernie and I would vote for him in the primary, but even if he loses there is no way in hell that I'd not vote for Hillary.

Even though it's early, unless something collosal happens, Hillary has this on lock.

I just hope in the meantime she becomes a better candidate that doesn't appeal to a "everything else is worse" decision. Her chameleon actions and some of the answers she has given aren't great when it comes to the banking system and items like the Patriot Act.

 

[Foffy]

I would stick with the party of non-crazies and not work to elect a Republican because ideological purity.

Which is what a independent Bernie run would be.

I hope you're not assuming I am desiring Bernie to run independant.

We're already a fucked over system by being painfully binary, and a vote for a third party is the equivalent to not voting at all. That's how bad it is.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

You probably didn't pay for your college tuition, your apartment, your books and your food on your 20-30 hour a week job. Neither did I.

The plan isn't to work 20-30 hours a week and make enough money to pay tuition. The plan is to create a system in which your college is payed for but you do 10 hours a week. Similar to work study plans in place today for financial aid recipients. You have shown again how tragically misinformed your moronic statements are.

Why don't you do us all a favor and google something for 5 seconds before you come in here throwing words like bitch around and embarrass yourself.

 

[User 463088]

They believe a "Left Scare" will sour the country away from left-wing politics for the foreseeable future and usher in a right-wing Reaganesque Apocalypse, dooming the barebones progress we've made this past decade or so. Reagan really crippled the Democratic party. They continue to live up to the 'spineless' stereotype under the guise of compromising, pragmatic liberals, yet continue to fold like cheap suits against sociopathic conservative politicians.

Overall, I agree that it's better to be seen as a cowardly, pragmatic person than a foolish ideological one. Bernie has a very small chance. As a former Wendy Davis campaign supporter, I know how "small chances" work out in elections. You get steamrolled by numbers.

I can understand the fact that Congress is as hard-right as ever and it's impractical for a democratic socialist to make any sort of significant change right now, but I don't understand the personal attacks and equating Sanders supporters to Ron Paul supporters.

It's not a policy attack, it's a perception one. Paul supporters kept saying they had the real poll numbers. Online polls mattered. He got tons of people at his rallies! Of course he's winning. The party's against him. We know what's really going on.

This correlation between the two groups of supporters isn't something people just made up. They use the same talking points, because they're the same type of candidate. Neither has/d a realistic chance of being a nominee for President.

 

[The Technomancer]

You probably didn't pay for your college tuition, your apartment, your books and your food on your 20-30 hour a week job. Neither did I. I'm assuming that Hillary means that 10 hours a week would somehow translate to affordable college. Was college affordable because you worked 30 hours a week? come on dude stop lying to yourself. It's like 1500 a month to live in most dorms.

What? No, of course it wasn't, I'm saddled with loan debt, but as you said yourself the point of the plan is to make that not the case anymore. What even are you arguing?

The plan isn't to work 20-30 hours a week and make enough money to pay tuition. The plan is to create a system in which your college is payed for but you do 10 hours a week. Similar to work study plans in place today for financial aid recipients.

This, holy shit

 

[Veritigo_X]

I don't know what supreme court justices are, so i'll just say that both sides exactly are the same

Pretty much what people are saying. I mean see5harp thinks that a republican would want to keep the status quo. I guess anything short of a revolution is pointless.

 

[BertramCooper]

West Long Branch, NJ – In the first Monmouth University Poll of likely Iowa Democratic caucusgoers in the 2016 cycle, Hillary Clinton holds a commanding 41 point lead over Bernie Sanders. This is the first poll conducted after Clinton’s appearance before the Benghazi Committee and Joe Biden’s announcement that he would not mount a presidential campaign.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

You probably didn't pay for your college tuition, your apartment, your books and your food on your 20-30 hour a week job. Neither did I. I'm assuming that Hillary means that 10 hours a week would somehow translate to affordable college. Was college affordable because you worked 30 hours a week? come on dude stop lying to yourself. It's like 1500 a month to live in most dorms.

It's part of a grant proposal that is not difficult to spend the 15 seconds of work it takes to look up if you are so inclined.

 

[Bronx-Man]

Pretty much what people are saying. I mean see5harp thinks that a republican would want to keep the status quo. I guess anything short of a revolution is pointless.

Modern Liberalism: "I guess anything short of a revolution is pointless."

 

[Cheebo]

Bernie Sanders was pie in the sky but this bitch Hillary straight up said that college students could work a few days a week to pay for college. Come on now that's even more absurd than saying banks should pay for college.

Hello there, you seem like a really level-headed guy who doesn't hurl around derogatory sexist insults toward females.

It doesn't help you cleary have no idea at all what her plan is.

 

[see5harp]

Contributions from 10 hours a week was the one thing she said in the debate sorry if I assumed that she actually thinks that 10 hours a week at the law library is going to help pay for $30,000 tuition in any way shape or form.

 

[NeoXChaos]

I voted for Obama because I felt like he gave me good reasons to do so. Hillary though? Hillary? What has she even suggested her big platform thing is? What does she even stand for? Bernie Sanders was pie in the sky but this bitch Hillary straight up said that college students could work a few days a week to pay for college. Come on now that's even more absurd than saying banks should pay for college.

and there it is. That didn't take long. Totally uncalled for.

 

[Cheebo]

see5harp is an example of what I strong suspected, a lot of the extreme anti-Hillary hate is out of pure sexism. Much like how back in 2008 the gut extreme anger towards Obama was clearly racist in origin in many instances.

 

[Orbis Tabula]

This is really all that needed to be said.

 

[Foffy]

Contributions from 10 hours a week was the one thing she said in the debate sorry if I assumed that she actually thinks that 10 hours a week at the law library is going to help pay for $30,000 tuition in any way shape or form.

It's designed that by assimilating to the double-bind of inferred labor for school, that it will help give you grants and the like.

Still not good enough - we should be moving away from mandated labor ENTIRELY in our society, not locking down on it further - but it is indeed better than the shitpit we already have.

Your confusion is thinking the 10 hours has to create a wage to match the cost. As an American, you already know how fucking terrible this place is with wages, so you should have figured out something was afoot with that claim. It's more like indentured servitude for college.

 

[see5harp]

see5harp is an example of what I strong suspected, a lot of the extreme anti-Hillary hate is out of pure sexism. Much like how back in 2008 the gut extreme anger towards Obama was clearly racist in origin.

OKAYYY