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[shiftplusone]

If you want to argue that maybe they shouldn't have said

“We knew we were going to do fully unique male, fully unique female for all scenes and all the customization that goes for both. Thank God for Blu-ray, right?”

because I also read that as implying that you'll have more options. That isn't the case, however.


In GTA5 trevor, michael, and franklin were of a set ethnicity with limited customization regarding hair/facial hair and clothes.

I dont see how that is much different than what is offered here.

You are locked in as white lady or white dude with limited customization regarding hair/facial hair and clothes.

EDIT: I understand the disappointment, but I think that assuming this is some sort of sinister plot by activision/treyarch is nonsense.

 

[Enzom21]

yeah cuz straight white dudes are sooooo fuckin under and misrepresented right?

fuck outta here with that. save the trolling shit for reddit

I don't think it's a troll. I think he is genuinely pissed that the protag of Remember Me isn't what he thinks should be the default and that's why discussions about having more options is people "bitching" to him. White is right after all.

 

[Mael]

If you want to argue that maybe they shouldn't have said

“We knew we were going to do fully unique male, fully unique female for all scenes and all the customization that goes for both. Thank God for Blu-ray, right?”

because I also read that as implying that you'll have more options. That isn't the case, however.


In GTA5 trevor, michael, and franklin were of a set ethnicity with limited customization regarding hair/facial hair and clothes.

I dont see how that is much different than what is offered here.

You are locked in as white lady or white dude with limited customization regarding hair/facial hair and clothes.

The difference being that GTA is clearly saying that you play as these characters while CoD is basically trying to pass it off as "it's you playing the game!".
Fucking Pokemon did it better than that.

I don't think it's a troll. I think he is genuinely pissed that the protag of Remember Me isn't what he thinks should be the default and people discussing having more options is people "bitching" to him. White is right after all.

The good thing about it is that he can pick one of the gazillion other games out there if he wants to play as a white male.

 

[WrenchNinja]

What is also weird is that as far as I know, almost no review has mentioned this in their assessment of the game.

Not that strange when most of them are out of touch white dudes

 

[User 73706]

Why? Were you promised you could play as a character of any race? Do you only play campaigns where you can choose your race?

The protagonist is simply "the Player", and Treyarch decided he or she is white. Get over it. Not every character has to be customizable.

This is once again a case of over reacting. I'm white though, so I guess my opinion could be skewed

(it's not).

 

[Principate]

Not that strange when most of them are out of touch white dudes

Reviews barely even mention glaring technical issues, why anyone think they'd most would bother to things like this

 

[SolidSnakex]

It still doesn't excuse the lack of representation, though. They could have had six different faces of different races (three for both genders) and altered the skin tone and hair for all six.

Do you mean different faces as in different facial structures? If so then they could but they'd have to do performance capture to account for each of those new facial structures. The performance capture is the sticking point here. If they would've gone through a standard character creator, then you could've made any character of any race that you wanted. But it would've also meant that they couldn't use performance capture at all since that specific character would stick out like a sore thumb compared to every other character. It's a limitation of performance capture. It results in the highest quality animation in cutscenes, but the downside is that there's no real customization that can be done on the characters aside from something like hair.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

I will never be satisfied until a developer lets me play as a post-op transgender who is also transracial because I turned from a white man to a white woman but identify with black culture.

Also, I demand all videogame coffee cups recognize Jesus Christ.

Does this car come in black?

Oh wow. Yeah? Well I want ChromaFlair with flake and holographic glitter on my car too buddy

What? I just asked if it came in black.

 

[Yaphett Kotto]

If you want to argue that maybe they shouldn't have said

“We knew we were going to do fully unique male, fully unique female for all scenes and all the customization that goes for both. Thank God for Blu-ray, right?”

because I also read that as implying that you'll have more options. That isn't the case, however.


In GTA5 trevor, michael, and franklin were of a set ethnicity with limited customization regarding hair/facial hair and clothes.

I dont see how that is much different than what is offered here.

You are locked in as white lady or white dude with limited customization regarding hair/facial hair and clothes.

You're comparing a game with just one white male and female with multiple variations of them with no real background to who they are to a game with multiple ethnicities with different backgrounds who live in different lifestyles with major supporting characters who aren't one dimensional or specifically white.

There is a difference.

Do you mean different faces as in different facial structures? If so then they could but they'd have to do performance capture to account for each of those new facial structures. The performance capture is the sticking point here. If they would've gone through a standard character creator, then you could've made any character of any race that you wanted. But it would've also meant that they couldn't use performance capture at all since that specific character would stick out like a sore thumb compared to every other character. It's a limitation of performance capture. It results in the highest quality animation in cutscenes, but the downside is that there's no real customization that can be done on the characters aside from something like hair.

Yes, use difference faces.

The workaround being that they capture multiple faces for the cutscenes they use. Or went with the standard character creator since the SP isn't all that good anyways.

 

[Sai-kun]

hi bae

Reviews barely even mention glaring technical issues, why anyone think they'd most would bother to things like this

Yeah, I feel like most reviewers don't touch things having to do with actual social issues or real-world shit with a ten foot pole.

When people write shit like this, do they think they're being particularly clever? I imagine this guy clicking the Submit Reply button and crossing his arms, tickled by his ingenious tactic to silence those pesky skeletons out to diversify his games.

"haha, got em!"

 

[Eidan]

I will never be satisfied until a developer lets me play as a post-op transgender who is also transracial because I turned from a white man to a white woman but identify with black culture.

Also, I demand all videogame coffee cups recognize Jesus Christ.

When people write shit like this, do they think they're being particularly clever? I imagine this guy clicking the Submit Reply button and crossing his arms, tickled by his ingenious tactic to silence those pesky SJWs out to diversify his games.

 

[Opto]

I thought this was a really weird oversight. I tried scrolling past the white faces, thinking they didn't load in yet.

 

[Johndoey]

It's basically false advertising if you ask me. Someone who hoped they could change the hairstyles, nose, mouth etc. will also be disappointed.

I don't think you can make a legitimate case for false advertising. No promises were actually made.

 

[Alienous]

They should have just not let you choose the face. Generic white guy, generic white girl, and pick a bandana.

The only thing that bothered me was the illusion of choice. "Will I be this white guy, or this white guy?". It really highlighted it.

Can't give them too much grief though; they do have a female character and its nice to see the rapid progress made on that front in the last 5 years or so.

 

[Obrek]

If you don't think its an issue, it would be nice to hear your case that isn't simply just, "I don't care" or "I don't see the big issue." I don't see how you are getting me wanting people to agree with me to stay in. There are 18 variations of a protag in the SP and they couldn't be bothered with making someone that wasn't white?

While what you quoted was obviously drive-by posting, your statement that anybody who doesn't have an issue with it should leave the thread is bullshit. Your position is that this is important. Mine and others position is that it doesn't matter. And yes, sometimes distinguishing yourself as a minority in a thread about diversity is necessary, as Kinyou showed us.

I care and I don't care are opposites. If you care, there is nothing wrong with a response of "I don't care" and I've hardly seen just that response. Most people who disagree with this "issue" have given their reasons. As long as they aren't being disparaging about it, "I don't care" is a reasonable response.

And for clarity, it isn't "9 variations on white guy." It's "the same person with slightly different skin tone and some accessory options."

 

[User 73706]

Oh damn....PC propaganda is making it's way into Gaming....
I don't really agree to all this "character must be this gender, this race, this sexuality, etc.".

I see games as a form of expression similar to other forms of writing. Should we now judge writers for starring characters that are white, male and look like a Greek sculpture?
People need to take a chill pill and simply enjoy games.
Just my 2 cents, but I might be the one with the outdated view. Who knows?

What amazes me the most about the current gaming / online landscape with these topics is that people are objectively read enough to come to cogent conclusions, only to totally fucking dismiss them because "subjective reactions are weak ones" and they don't have the ability to commit to something that would "compromise" their - I hate to use this term, but whatever - privilege in doing so. Like, I've seen several posts in the last year that more or less lay out "maybe the reason i don't have a problem with this is because i'm part of a problem and as a white dude i never really thought about it and in reality we should be a lot more open and understanding of the plight minorities have to go through...


nahhhhhhhhh, that can't be it."

 

[shiftplusone]

You're comparing a game with just one white male and female with multiple variations of them with no real background to who they are to a game with multiple ethnicities with different backgrounds who live in different lifestyles with major supporting characters who aren't one dimensional or specifically white.

There is a difference.

so is the first example not acceptable just due to bad writing/lack of character development?

The player character is arguably a blank slate with the only option being white. is that what the problem is? (maybe not the "problem", but the reason for discussion, to use a less inflammatory term.)

If the character was better developed and had a backstory that was meaningful and being white was relevant to that (previous characters kid or some explanation) would that be okay, or would it be "why do I have to play as this white idiot who was the daughter of asshole guy from last game?"

When does "the character is well written and is white for a reason" become acceptable, vs "they made the character white for a reason but the writing is shit and its not conveyed appropriately"

I'm not trying to diminish the argument, I'm trying to understand the argument.

 

[Kinyou]

I don't think you can make a legitimate case for false advertising. No promises were actually made.

True, it's probably not something that would hold up in court. But I imagine the majority of people went into this game expecting an actual character creator

 

[GrayChild]

I don't think it's a troll. I think he is genuinely pissed that the protag of Remember Me isn't what he thinks should be the default and people discussing having more options is people "bitching" to him. White is right after all.

Or more like missing the whole point.

Still, it's nice to see how everyone thinks that such customization options can be implemented in a few days for little to no money and manpower involved in the process.

Let me get this straight, some of my favorite games of all time include minority of female characters which I do not have any issues with. In addition, being an Eastern European myself, it would be very easy to play the "underrepresented" or "incorrectly depicted" card when talking about videogame characters. Because, first of all, it's a bloody videogame and second, there are things called "artistic vision" and "design choices", which are commonly ruined by trying to appease everyone.

 

[Vice]

Oh damn....PC propaganda is making it's way into Gaming....
I don't really agree to all this "character must be this gender, this race, this sexuality, etc.".

I see games as a form of expression similar to other forms of writing. Should we now judge writers for starring characters that are white, male and look like a Greek sculpture?
People need to take a chill pill and simply enjoy games.
Just my 2 cents, but I might be the one with the outdated view. Who knows?

Other art forms are praised, or criticized, for their cast diversity, or lack of it. It's not a criticism that's exclusive to games.

 

[Sai-kun]

artistic vision in a call of duty game

where's :lol when you need it???

 

[JDSN]

Whats with the excuse of different voice actors? Do american non-whites sound a certain way? Do people know that the dude that voiced Vamp on Metal Gear was black? How does an asian-american sound like?

 

[Henkka]

Yes they should have. I'm tired of every big game featuring a white male front and center.

Suddenly diversity is getting very expensive. I don't think the solution is character creation in every game... It's not feasible for many developers. Whether or not their game has fully featured character creation is their call and there's nothing wrong with having a set character. Instead, we should have some games with white protagonists, some with black, some with asian, etc.

But given that the audience of COD is still probably mainly white dudes, a set black protagonist is a hard sell to the suits. It's capitalism.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I thought this was a really weird oversight. I tried scrolling past the white faces, thinking they didn't load in yet.

Just to play devil advocate a bit. Since they're all variants on the same two actors, and use full performance capture meaning for a good result they can't stray too far, they might've run into another controversy altogether if it was just the same actor's faces with much darker skin. there would've been a lot more clean up as well and/or less polish animation wise since I don't think they'd suddenly been given more time in development. I certainly wouldn't consider this 1 step forward and a ton of steps back, especially since the multiplayer is quite diverse.

 

[Mael]

Or more like missing the whole point.

Still, it's nice to see how everyone thinks that such customization options can be implemented in a few days for little to no money and manpower involved in the process.

It's not an indie game we're talking about. It's ATVI's biggest release of the year, if there's one game where that change would have a minimal impact on the whole project it's this one.

Let me get this straight, some of my favorite games of all time include minority of female characters which I do not have any issues with. In addition, being an Eastern European myself, it would be very easy to play the "underrepresented" or "incorrectly depicted" card when talking about videogame characters. Because, first of all, it's a bloody videogame and second, there are things called "artistic vision" and "design choices", which are commonly ruined by trying to appease everyone.

Is this the gaming version of "my best friend is black and ..."?

 

[BajiBoxer]

Yeah, don't push customization too much if it's just going to be 2 white people with a small number of haircuts and tanning options.

The author though... kind of lazy when you can't be bothered to double check a claim on Advanced Warfare. "According to some ... " it's pretty easy to confirm if a feature exists or not in a video game. It's not exactly something up for debate, lol.

 

[NervousXtian]

They are just different shade and outfits for the same 2 characters.

 

[RichiRamjag]

Or more like missing the whole point.

Still, it's nice to see how everyone thinks that such customization options can be implemented in a few days for little to no money and manpower involved in the process.

Let me get this straight, some of my favorite games of all time include minority of female characters which I do not have any issues with. In addition, being an Eastern European myself, it would be very easy to play the "underrepresented" or "incorrectly depicted" card when talking about videogame characters. Because, first of all, it's a bloody videogame and second, there are things called "artistic vision" and "design choices", which are commonly ruined by trying to appease everyone.

We're talking about a game where customization was a major feature talked about before release. It wasn't far off to expect the option. Other games with non-customizable player characters aren't the issue. No one is saying they want Nathan Drake to be black, or Lara Croft to be Hispanic just because, I don't know, maybe some are. But to relegate the discussion to the extreme of folks wanting to shoehorn characters of different a races into every single game out there is off base from my personal issues with this specific game.

There was no point in even allowing the option if it was going to be this limited.

Yeah, don't push customization too much if it's just going to be 2 white people with a small number of haircuts and tanning options.

The author though... kind of lazy when you can't be bothered to double check a claim on Advanced Warfare. "According to some ... " it's pretty easy to confirm if a feature exists or not in a video game. It's not exactly something up for debate, lol.

This! This is the issue(well, mine at least). I'm not asking for every character in every game to look like me. I'm not even all that pissed about it in this game, but it was annoying when I went to customize my character and it was nine variations of a white guy. I looked at my wife and was like "what the fuck? What's the point?".

 

[Principate]

Just to play devil advocate a bit. Since they're all variants on the same two actors, and use full performance capture meaning for a good result they can't stray too far, they might've run into another controversy altogether, there would've been a lot more clean up as well and/or less polish animation wise since I don't think they'd suddenly been given more time in development. I certainly wouldn't consider this 1 step forward and a ton of steps back, especially since the multiplayer is quite diverse.

You don't need to change anything about the animation, while certain more intensive changes would probably be better received, I can imagine the majority of people would be perfectly happy with a simple skin tone change which really isn't all that difficult to implement even on Mo cap, in comparison to well nothing.

 

[GrayChild]

It's not an indie game we're talking about. It's ATVI's biggest release of the year, if there's one game where that change would have a minimal impact on the whole project it's this one.

Using your logic, I would also expect CoD to be a bit more technologically advanced compared to some of the other AAA shooters out there, rather than constantly updating its old engine with new features.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

He's picked the wrong game to take up his moral crusade with.

It's 2 characters. One male, one female, who are both effectively white characters. You can then slightly modify their look. So yeah, calling it create is probably the wrong terminology.

Secondly, he throws up advanced warfare as a bastion of racial diversity. Um, Advance Warfare doesn't let you customise your single player character.

 

[Kalentan]

Just to play devil advocate a bit. Since they're all variants on the same two actors, and use full performance capture meaning for a good result they can't stray too far, they might've run into another controversy altogether if it was just the same actor's faces with much darker skin. there would've been a lot more clean up as well and/or less polish animation wise since I don't think they'd suddenly been given more time in development. I certainly wouldn't consider this 1 step forward and a ton of steps back, especially since the multiplayer is quite diverse.

Honestly this is an argument that many seem to be ignoring.

 

[roninwarrior92]

this entire thread....

 

[Mael]

Using your logic, I would also expect CoD to be a bit more technologically advanced compared to some of the other AAA shooters out there, rather than constantly updating its old engine with new features.

Yes and ?

 

[Dominator]

They should have just not let you choose the face. Generic white guy, generic white girl, and pick a bandana.

The only thing that bothered me was the illusion of choice. "Will I be this white guy, or this white guy?". It really highlighted it.

Can't give them too much grief though; they do have a female character and its nice to see the rapid progress made on that front in the last 5 years or so.

They are they same face though.

 

[Yaphett Kotto]

so is the first example not acceptable just due to bad writing/lack of character development?

The player character is arguably a blank slate with the only option being white. is that what the problem is? (maybe not the "problem", but the reason for discussion, to use a less inflammatory term.)

If the character was better developed and had a backstory that was meaningful and being white was relevant to that (previous characters kid or some explanation) would that be okay, or would it be "why do I have to play as this white idiot who was the daughter of asshole guy from last game?"

When does "the character is well written and is white for a reason" become acceptable, vs "they made the character white for a reason but the writing is shit and its not conveyed appropriately"

I'm not trying to diminish the argument, I'm trying to understand the argument.

If the people you play as were a son/daughter of Woods or Mason, or any other major character from BO2 or BO1, it would be understandable, but they went with a blank slate and opened up the opportunity for diversity with the different faces they let you choose from. Because of that, you have threads like these which question why did they do this and why it is not tolerated.

 

[Alienous]

Just to play devil advocate a bit. Since they're all variants on the same two actors, and use full performance capture meaning for a good result they can't stray too far, they might've run into another controversy altogether, there would've been a lot more clean up as well and/or less polish animation wise since I don't think they'd suddenly been given more time in development. I certainly wouldn't consider this 1 step forward and a ton of steps back, especially since the multiplayer is quite diverse.

Playing the split-screen CO-OP for some missions, with the two played characters being male and female, it did seem like individual facial performance for the two.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was a logistical thing. It's not like they had an array of diverse white faces to choose from, just minor variations of the same base face. So it's more of an under-representation of everyone but those two faces.

The question then is why they didn't question having a more ethnically diverse two characters as the default. You could still have a more diverse restricted choice.

 

[Johndoey]

artistic vision in a call of duty game

where's :lol when you need it???

All games have some sort of artistic vision behind them some focus.

 

[Opto]

Just to play devil advocate a bit. Since they're all variants on the same two actors, and use full performance capture meaning for a good result they can't stray too far, they might've run into another controversy altogether if it was just the same actor's faces with much darker skin. there would've been a lot more clean up as well and/or less polish animation wise since I don't think they'd suddenly been given more time in development. I certainly wouldn't consider this 1 step forward and a ton of steps back, especially since the multiplayer is quite diverse.

Given my experience with the game so far, there's not much screen time of the main character speaking. Mostly when you're in first person or other times where the player character's mouth is not seen do you hear them talk

 

[Principate]

Using your logic, I would also expect CoD to be a bit more technologically advanced compared to some of the other AAA shooters out there, rather than constantly updating its old engine with new features.

We're talking about the skin tone, bro skin tone, too arguably less complex than a piece of armour/clothing. An extremely old "feature".

It's pretty hilarious that Kotor 1 has far, far, far superior racial options, than most "customizable", games today. Complete changes to model as your character becomes dark side. I was actually surprised when I played the game fairly recently it was quite frankly embarrassing. That game is more than a decade old.

 

[Lime]

No one is saying they want [...] Lara Croft to be Hispanic

Funny you mention it, because Eidos actually changed Toby Gard's original vision of "a tough South American woman with a braid named Laura Cruz. Eidos management preferred a more "UK friendly" name, and selected Lara Croft from similar-sounding British names found in an English telephone directory. Along with the name change, the character's backstory was altered to incorporate a British origin"

 

[R3TRO]

That was the first thing I noticed tbh and I haven't went back to play the campaign because it bothers me.

 

[Venom Fox]

I don't even see why this is a problem. If the Dev didn't give you the option to change your race then so what, it's tough luck. Not every game has to offer the options to select race.

What's next, is everyone going to call out Rockstar for not having male prostitutes in GTA?

 

[Mael]

All games have some sort of artistic vision behind them some focus.

And the publishers are some of the most destructive forces of that artistic vision.
Let's be fair, no one really gives a shit about artistic vision.
If the artistic vision means that the game must be 900p to reach the 60 fps, you will see people whine about it.
If it means that the music use midi instead of orchestral, you will see people whine about it.
It's not less valid because we're talking about gender or race.

 

[Yaphett Kotto]

All games have some sort of artistic vision behind them some focus.

So there is a artistic vision behind customization of faces?

 

[Alienous]

They are they same face though.

No, I meant let you pick male or female then just jumped into the game.

It's the illusion of having an option that makes it stand out.

 

[Eidan]

I don't even see why this is a problem. If the Dev didn't give you the option to change your race then so what, it's tough luck. Not every game has to offer the options to select race. What's next, is everyone going to call out Rockstar for not having male prostitutes in GTA?

I wouldn't be mad if someone did. Would you?

 

[Kinyou]

You don't need to change anything about the animation, while certain more intensive changes would probably be better received, I can imagine the majority of people would be perfectly happy with a simple skin tone change which really isn't all that difficult to implement even on Mo cap, in comparison to well nothing.

I do wonder how people would react. From what I know is it kind of unprecedented to change the race of someone who was performance captured. Ben Browder could end up looking like Ben Browder in blackface makeup.

On the other hand, in the world of animation white voice actors voicing black characters and vice versa has been accepted with no problem, though those characters are also not based on their real life appearence

 

[Kalentan]

The question then is why they didn't question having a more ethnically diverse two characters as the default. You could still have a more diverse restricted choice.

I feel like this is a bit of a rabbit hole though as you can begin to apply this to a lot of stuff.

 

[Principate]

I don't even see why this is a problem. If the Dev didn't give you the option to change your race then so what, it's tough luck. Not every game has to offer the options to select race.

What's next, is everyone going to call out Rockstar for not having male prostitutes in GTA?

Right never make complaints about things you don't like in a video game ever gotcha.