Thanks for making an appearance. Adding this to the OP.
CoD: Black Ops 3's campaign doesn't allow you to change race
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Thanks for making an appearance. Adding this to the OP.
User 73706
Banned
I agree, and thanks for the video. I'm subscribing to your channel.
Chû Totoro
Member
Well in a way if it's not racism it's that they are dumb so it's not the same problem... even if I agree that the feature asked is clearly a reasonable demand of course.
But for me the risk is to try too hard to go for the politically correct while it serves as an excuse to put the "not racist" or "best society ever" sticker. See in the US you have quotas for minorities in movies or TV shows yet a lot of these roles are just caricatures or insulting representations of minorities... I don't find it constructive and it doesn't change the fact that minorities get treated badly by cops and that high level jobs are not accessible to minorities easily too.
It's a very large topic and I'm just giving my opinion here so I'll try not to say too stupid things and not to derail the thread too much... so regarding CoD and CoD only I agree that they could have put the feature even if it had been done with some compromises (like not as perfect mocap since the traits of the black version of the character may be a little different but I'm sure it wouldn't have been too noticeable.
Again I'm curious to read their official reason for not doing it but I'm not feeling insulted or anything.
Confidence Man
Member
Matchmaking down (PC)? Can't find any games.
Great points all around. And thanks for doing what you do - I highly appreciate all the great videos that you put out there!
RichiRamjag
Member
Lol, wrong thread mate.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Chû Totoro;184953254 said:
Time and money are probably the reason. Most linear, narrative-focused, cinematic heavy single player games like this only have one character for you to be, so they probably felt they were going the extra mile already having two.
Prototype Viktor
Member
Those dots they put on thier face not only give x,y coordinates but send out skin tone to the capture programs.
/s but people seem to comment like that actually happens and not just wire frames that are purposely filled in later/default to a skin tone of "normal white skin
Cheers man! Just watched the video and I agree with you on basically everything.
Well I played as a black male commander Shepard all through Mass Effect and I'm pretty sure his voice actor is white? That didn't detract at all to my experience but sure as hell helped me feel more involved with my character and overall story.
I mean if CoD campaign is selling it's campaign touting character customisation this way I would like the option to choose even if there's only one voice actor.
Devs should just select a talented one who can work across the board.
User 73706
Banned
Chû Totoro;184953254 said:
"i'm not from the backwards-ass land of politically correct minority quotas, so i'm pretty confident in saying that when black people get thrown into the mix you need additional mocap to cover all of those animalistic nuances, i know what i'm talking about"
test_account
XP-39C²
I'm glad that they made it so that you can choose gender. Thought that was really cool done.
I'm pretty sure they do create the face textures by taking actual pictures.
Chû Totoro;184953254 said:
I dont think anyone is feeling like Activision has slighted them in some way, if anything the part that people find insulting is the unwillingness of the fans and the industry to have a discussion on inclusiveness, the very idea of mentioning it is enough to get people mad enough to send death threats or certain devs to capitalize on that. The industry is progressing but certain things need to be fixed and people should demand more, or at the very least people demanding more should not be silenced by those that are content.
This board gets into controversies about shit I dont care about like FPS, resolutions or VR, yet I never get into those threads to complain about "outrage brigade", whinne about quotas or say that people should not care about this, thats rude and bannable, yet people wanna bring up their imaginary minority friends so the real ones can shut up.
robertlebrone
Member
I'm used to protagonists in games predominantly being white people so whatever. Business as usual. That said if you are going to bother putting creation tools in a game then put them in the game. Whatever BO3 has going on with its character creator shouldn't have even bothered to be in the game. It's a joke.
Chû Totoro
Member
Yeah I've read beefyreef's post and now I understand better the process... they may have think about it but too late during the making of the game and they decided that it wasn't worth it (like you said vs. time and money).
I didn't comment on the VO I just feel recoloring Ben Bowder's face is insufficient and absolutely not a good substitute for designing an African American character from the get go.
Chû Totoro
Member
Do you try to say that I'm saying this? I may have phrased badly my post or you may not have read it properly but my points (the two you're addressing) were:
1- even if mocap is better (I don't know it's not my job) they may have still do it (again we need someone who knows mocap to be sure but I don't see why my face would move that differently from a white or a black guy. For the record my mother is white and my father is black.. so am I bad mocaped since birth?)
2- I'm saying that quotas were a good try to make things better but this examples shows (imo) that when you try too hard and when you focus only on a rule here, a rule there, you just loose the main concern: equality ! In the US (and in a lot of countries) minorities are not treated the same way as others. It's a fact and more minorities in games won't change that if it's the same as movies and if we end up only with GTA like black characters everywhere).
PS: sorry if I answered while your post wasn't to try to resume my post
ViewtifulJC
Banned
I think this is really where the contention is coming from. People see "character creator" and they think, "ooh like Mass Effect/Fallout 3". When in reality..its not really a character creator at all. You can pick This Guy or That Girl. The slightly different hair/beard/skin tone is basically like the different colors you could pick for a character in a fighting game. Ryu can have a red headband or a yellow headband, but its not a Character Creator. He's always Ryu.
The problem here is the character in this game is in a kinda weird spot between being generic enough that he/she could get some Commander Shepard esque variation(I mean I'm not even sure the protagonist is ever named they're that generic), but at the same time they are the protagonist in a narrative-focused, very controlled and cinematic single player shooter, which really don't have character creators at all? Even when they're generic avatars that you never see in-game like Gordon Freeman, he's still a defined character in all the official art. Bioshock, Halo, No One Lives Forever, Doom, Serious Sam, no matter how generic or ungeneric the protagonist, they are who they are. You can't make them black or latino.
So its weird. I think they need to either commit to a real protagonist like Soap or Mason, or just go full-blown character creation. Either way, it would have to change the format of the campaign they're doing, or at least the kind of story they're trying to tell.
I had no idea it was an actual actor, maybe there is a clause in his contract that his image cannot be modified in a big way?
I see what you're getting at but it's still quite a weak excuse imo.
Using Mass Effect again as an example, the new game uses mocap but I bet you we'll be able to have a variety of skin options. If Bioware can figure it out I'm sure Treyarch could to. Maybe they decided on all this very late or the budget became tight so none of that was possible.
Anyway these developers are very skilled so I hope for better variety in their next game if they stick with customisation.
That's not Ben Browder's face. That's Ben Browder 20 years and 60 lbs ago. Work and care was done to enhance the cosmetics and to fit the narrative of him being fit. And it's not like the dude has the facial animations of a wookie. The same effort could have been done with very little overhead to include another feature packet.
Prototype Viktor
Member
Those pictures make thier Maya/Unity/etc programs crumble as those puny programs can only create everything in existence and imagination only
not picking on ya but responding to possible things said those that can't talk in this thread anymore
Darryl M R
Member
I appreciate the conversations people are willing to have wether there is an issue with how Black Ops 3 handled racial diversity. I enjoy making my character black (African-American) and I appreciate it when my fiancee can make her character a Latina and can identify herself with the game she is playing.
When I reflect on gaming I think it is dated to have all protagonists be white males. I grew up playing as a white male, and even though I am confident in my identity, I always felt weird going online in a forum or game chat and having my racial identity be known since gaming felt like a white guy only activity unless it's a sport game (another conversation).
And just because it is easier and cheaper to make a main character white does not mean a dev team should do it. Bringing diversity into anything that lacks it (gaming, tech, etc.) is hard, and it is hard for a reason: because people have been (un)consciously excluded to the point that it seems like common law.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this issue and I agree with holding media accountable.
When I reflect on gaming I think it is dated to have all protagonists be white males. I grew up playing as a white male, and even though I am confident in my identity, I always felt weird going online in a forum or game chat and having my racial identity be known since gaming felt like a white guy only activity unless it's a sport game (another conversation).
And just because it is easier and cheaper to make a main character white does not mean a dev team should do it. Bringing diversity into anything that lacks it (gaming, tech, etc.) is hard, and it is hard for a reason: because people have been (un)consciously excluded to the point that it seems like common law.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this issue and I agree with holding media accountable.
Shadoken
Member
I dont get it , the character screens just look like the same dude with different facial features like hair or bandanas and shit.
It doesn't even seem like a fully fledged character creator. That would require way more changes than just adding a Skin color shader , you would need different facial features and character models for each race.
It doesn't even seem like a fully fledged character creator. That would require way more changes than just adding a Skin color shader , you would need different facial features and character models for each race.
I think your confused i'm not making an excuse for anyone merely stating my opinion on the matter. I have no interest in justifying the choices of a large studio.
Big props man, keep up the good fight
Yeah sorry if I came off as not understanding man.
I see you mean you just want the best representation of other skin options that match VO, facial structure etc and not some half assed implementation.
Psychoward
Banned
At the very least would it hurt to throw in some darker skin shaders?
Dictator93
Member
So it is the exact same facial scan but with different seocondary features: hair, eye colour, and facial hair for female and male character?
It could end up looking rather unconvincing given how it is based off of a scan and performance capture, but it obviously hurts no feelings making the albedo texture some other base colour.
It could end up looking rather unconvincing given how it is based off of a scan and performance capture, but it obviously hurts no feelings making the albedo texture some other base colour.
shiftplusone
Member
the 9 options are a combination of beard, no beard, goatee, shaved or not shaved head, beanie or no beanie iirc
for the males, anyway.
It's not a character creator under any stretch of the phrase
having even less options (read: none) would be a better thing than what they gave
Dictator93
Member
Well then I kind of get it.
Like I say though above, adding in different skin tones I guess does not hurt, although it could look rather odd being the same facial scan.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Psychoward
Banned
yeah like I said earlier in the thread, I had to deal with playing nba2k whatever with a white guy who was clearly modeled after a black guy and had a black voice but at least i had that option to get the skin color to resemble mine
RichiRamjag
Member
It still bugs me. In NBA 2K15, I couldn't stand the voice. Even as a black guy I don't talk like that, but I didn't mind because they had a couple of options at least. In 2K16, I've gotta be this cornball with all these goofball phrases. I hope they go back to 2K15 style stories and nothing like this "freq" nonsense. Couldn't even make decisions.
Bro, Japanese character creators are really bad at making black characters.
Japan's population is usually really stereotypical about black people.
What's not to get?????
User 73706
Banned
That's institutionally racist, not understandable.
Someone needs to go fix Japanese game dev's shit then. I didn't say it was a good thing, but it logically makes sense.
Western char. creators are usually great with this.
And Bloodborne's was okay. I made a great dark Arabic style character.
EatinOlives
Member
There's an important distinction here that people seem to miss: games with Create-A-Character vs. games with character customization options.
The former essentially lets you create "your own" character from scratch. It's silly to say you can make a character and then turn around and only provide the bare minimum (and in the case of race, not even the bare minimum. Think GTA Online.
The latter is a set character with a set personality and characteristics. You can change their appearance such as their clothes or hairstyles, but you can't change their innately physical aspects. The character remains the same. Think any of the three GTA V single-player protagonists.
To the people saying "this is just outrage PC culture!!!" you miss the distinction between something presented as a "Create-A-Character" vs. being given a set character and you being able to customize said character. The very fact they give you a gender option for the same character takes it strictly into the Create-A-Character category, and within that category not being able to change race is abhorrent. Once you give players the choice to change gender, you're making the overt statement that this character you're creating is not bound to a strict continuity that dictates that your playable character is a pre-written, pre-defined character.
This is why people are cool with Skyrim's character creator while simultaneously being cool with Witcher 3 restricting you to Geralt and his small assortment of hairstyles/beardstyles. It's because it's understood that the former is a Create-A-Character, while the latter is clearly just customization options on a pre-constructed character who has a defined personality and presence within the game's universe.
The former essentially lets you create "your own" character from scratch. It's silly to say you can make a character and then turn around and only provide the bare minimum (and in the case of race, not even the bare minimum. Think GTA Online.
The latter is a set character with a set personality and characteristics. You can change their appearance such as their clothes or hairstyles, but you can't change their innately physical aspects. The character remains the same. Think any of the three GTA V single-player protagonists.
To the people saying "this is just outrage PC culture!!!" you miss the distinction between something presented as a "Create-A-Character" vs. being given a set character and you being able to customize said character. The very fact they give you a gender option for the same character takes it strictly into the Create-A-Character category, and within that category not being able to change race is abhorrent. Once you give players the choice to change gender, you're making the overt statement that this character you're creating is not bound to a strict continuity that dictates that your playable character is a pre-written, pre-defined character.
This is why people are cool with Skyrim's character creator while simultaneously being cool with Witcher 3 restricting you to Geralt and his small assortment of hairstyles/beardstyles. It's because it's understood that the former is a Create-A-Character, while the latter is clearly just customization options on a pre-constructed character who has a defined personality and presence within the game's universe.
This is a character customisation option, not "create a character".
Two different things.
One has predetermined characters which the creators envisioned, the other is player determined.
Witcher 3 vs fallout 4.
Also Blops 3 DOES have a variety of races, it's just in the multiplayer if anyone bothered to look.
I'm not too sure how treyarch advertised the character customisation, but maybe there was just some miscommunication. But also, maybe players should have their expectations checked.
Two different things.
One has predetermined characters which the creators envisioned, the other is player determined.
Witcher 3 vs fallout 4.
Also Blops 3 DOES have a variety of races, it's just in the multiplayer if anyone bothered to look.
I'm not too sure how treyarch advertised the character customisation, but maybe there was just some miscommunication. But also, maybe players should have their expectations checked.
FlutterPuffs
Member
I don't really mind that the characters are all white. I see it as having different options on how the protagonist would look like.
I do think it could have been done better. Make the character the same from the start, but with an option to change your appearance AFTER he's introduced.
I do think it could have been done better. Make the character the same from the start, but with an option to change your appearance AFTER he's introduced.
I have an expectation that our games are as diverse as the player base, and the world, that consumes the media. That shouldn't be "checked".
Also, did you watch my video? I specifically talk about the relationship between the multiplayer and the singleplayer.
This is it, as both of them are based in appearance on their voice actors. Don't think this is an intentional omission, as really this is meant to tweak a general appearance, rather than actually creating your own character.
After checking again, there is some difference in the race of the multiplayer specialists with a pretty healthy mix of male and female and race.