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[Messofanego]

You'd have to be working on some unrealistic idealogy where you think enforcing a gender split (or trying to hire more minority people) that is representative of the actual audience is unfair. Companies, corporations, industries work on enforcing that split. Or what you call "tokenism" and quotas. And you know what, that diversity makes businesses better automatically because diverse people makes the company familiar with different problems and how to address them.

Do we really want the gaming awards bodies to be as pathetically ultra conservative as the Academy Awards?

This frustrates me that it's being pinned on the game awards. Here's the deal: Yes there may be some sexism in the hiring process for female journalists in the game industry (I haven't heard of that but let's say it's possible). But ultimately, it wouldn't have been until recently that many women at all would apply for the job, and it's not a field that is full of opportunities. The fact is that the majority of games press is male. And I don't think any of the current female journalists hold the highest editor positions on the sites they work for, thus wouldn't be the natural pick for the jury.

If you have to point fingers, do it to the press for not having enough female journalists I guess, not the game awards.

Blame has to be passed onto the outlets, but there are other outlets that have a better gender split and they could be contacted, as Lime mentioned:

1. Go through the different sites listed and check if there are any women regularly employed (yes there are)
2. Look towards other sites/publications that could improve things or help you out making sure that you're doing this correctly. Sites such as Offworld, US Gamer, The Mary Sue, FemHype, FemFrequency, Bitchmedia, SpawnOnMe, Not Your Mama's Gamer, Justice Points, etc.

Geoff could in the future enforce the bigger outlets to pick a woman critic as jurist. Considering the women hired to be on the outlets would have to be already really qualified, anyway, seems like a win-win. Diversity has many net benefits to outweigh potential negatives.

 

[Htown]

I was going to post something along these lines. Best person for the job, gender doesn't matter. Why make exceptions or stop a more qualified from having the job just to seem non-sexist.

And as we all know, there's always a more qualified white man.

 

[MrS]

Does it matter?
Are the judges good judges?
If yes then there should be no issue.

If they were all women I would also have no problem with it as long as they were good judges.

I agree with this too.

This is a storm in a teacup because TGA is a shitshow anyway.

 

[vin-buc]

This isn't some momentous collection of people whose decisions matter. Did people even watch last year's? It's an advertisement for next year's games with some half-assed awards throw in.

This is what makes this whole "issue" even more ludicrous to me.

 

[ArjanN]

People missing the point. The reason this should be brought up and discussed isn't because Geoff or TGA people are sexist. It speaks to a greater issue of gender inequality in the industry. Why is there seemingly only 2 women out of 32 people in games media available?

Well sure, but that also means that this really doesn't have anything to do with TGA or Geoff and Killscreen withdrawing just seems counterproductive,

 

[Mesoian]

It seems like it would depend on what the categories are, right? I mean, in categories like "Best Graphics," or "Best PS4 Game," what would racial or gender diversity accomplish in helping more accurately deliver the awards to those who most deserve it?

I'm obviously not saying diversity is a bad thing, and it's a shame that games journalism is mostly white males, but I guess I just don't see what is wrong with it in this specific context.

Because if you admit it doesn't matter, why do it at all?

You have to add a human element to it in order for it not to be just another GOTY list, of which there will be HUNDREDS UPON HUNDREDS.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

Considering the selection process probably reflects worse on the sites themselves than Geoff who would've just approached each site to send someone. Not sure what boycotting TGA does when it comes down to each website not choosing a woman to represent them rather than the show only wanting men. At the same time I'm not really sure why a name has to be attached to each site's selections either?

e-Sports thing with Brietbart seems more like they would've approached each person individually (given you have people there representing 'youtube' and 'twitch'), but I'm not going to deny it's a bad look. I mean, I think it's easier to see the immediate issue there more easily than the jurors thing to me, especially when any other remotely GG-related site seems to be passed on and then a site that just a little over a year ago was still blaming gaming for mass shootings gets some representation.

 

[Zornack]

I'm talking about the corporate world, because anybody that's been following how board makeup impacts performance would see that decision making bodies that are more diverse perform better than ones that aren't. Consequently, I would argue that a group of judges- a decision making body would similarly perform better had TGAs pushed for more diversity in its decision making body.

This isn't a decision making body, there aren't rigorous debates about what deserves what where a minority's voice is important - if what I remember Gerstmann said about last year's awards is correct the outlets pick someone who writes down some winners of a category and mail it in. Boom, done.

I think people are putting way to much important on this jury.

I literally don't care about the makeup of the jury one bit. Get some more woman in there, fine, it doesn't matter to me because this jury means nothing. Fight for better representation in media and then in ten years when the industry isn't recovering from being such a boy's club, as it is now/has been for the past decades, the presentation of juries will reflect that change.

 

[jmood88]

And as we all know, there's always a more qualified white man.

Behind every black man, there's a more qualified white man who's angrily complaining about affirmative action.

 

[diaspora]

This isn't a decision making body, there aren't rigorous debates about what deserves what where a minority's voice is important - if what I remember Gerstmann said about last year's awards is correct the outlets pick someone who writes down some winners of a category and mail it in. Boom, done.

I think people are putting way to much important on this jury.

It's almost as though they're making decisions on what they believe are the best games for each respective category.

You'd have to be working on some unrealistic idealogy where you think enforcing a gender split (or trying to hire more minority people) that is representative of the actual audience is unfair. Companies, corporations, industries work on enforcing that split. Or what you call "tokenism" and quotas. And you know what, that diversity makes businesses better automatically because diverse people makes the company familiar with different problems and how to address them.

Do we really want the gaming awards bodies to be as pathetically ultra conservative as the Academy Awards?



Blame has to be passed onto the outlets, but there are other outlets that have a better gender split and they could be contacted, as Lime mentioned:



Geoff could in the future enforce the bigger outlets to pick a woman critic as jurist. Considering the women hired to be on the outlets would have to be already really qualified, anyway, seems like a win-win. Diversity has many net benefits to outweigh potential negatives.

Get Gerald Butts and/or Katie Telford on the case!

 

[TheSpoiler]

Looking at it from a more simple point of view; Gamers buying and playing these games are a diverse set of people. Men, women, white, black, latino, etc. So, if you're running an Game Awards show that celebrates games, with a jury who decides these awards, it should be as diverse as the people playing these games.

It's pretty simple in my view. If it's not, something is wrong somewhere. These outlets should be looking at themselves as well and asking themselves "do we represent our audience?" If you're 90% men, 10% women and lacking in diversity? They have their answer.

To add to this, a lot of people are saying "why does it matter its an awards show lol" etc and etc, but despite about how goofy this shit is, the reach is pretty vast. Imagine wanting to get into the industry, and seeing a panel of people, diverse as fuck with the same qualifications as the white dudes beside them.

Those people exist, it's not hard to find them, and it's not hard to spend the extra effort looking at your staff and saying "we should send this person, their qualifications are pretty good anyway".

Hell, I used to work for a bunch of smaller websites with female writers just as good if not better than the male ones at times. If your site doesn't have a small bit of diversity and you exist as a larger scale operation, ya dun fucked up.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Well sure, but that also means that this really doesn't have anything to do with TGA or Geoff and Killscreen withdrawing just seems counterproductive,

It's them using their platform to raise awareness to the issue, which is a good thing.

 

[Mesoian]

This isn't some momentous collection of people whose decisions matter. Did people even watch last year's? It's an advertisement for next year's games with some half-assed awards throw in.

But it could be more than that, and ultimately making it more than just that is the only way this thing is going to stay relevant. Because real talk, who cares?

 

[VanWinkle]

So why not have it then?

Its like people dont see an inherent worth in including others just because they are also people. Every discussion on this board about gender or race in gaming is always met with, well what would it accomplish. How about so we recognize other genders amd races play games and want to be included in the disucssion?

Oh I have no doubt they do. Everyone should have a say. I just wonder if it's a problem in this specific context that the majority of the panel are white males, where the categories (I'm assuming) don't hinge on gender and race views. It stems from most game journalists being white males, so I'm not surprised that the majority in the panel are the same.

 

[Mr. RHC]

What is the political and religious representation of the jury?

Ask them, maybe the will respond nicely. I'd rather look at what's not there than what's there.

 

[Moonlight]

By asking websites to nominate 2 people each instead of one? Hmmm... That could work I guess.



Yeah was thinking the same

There are plenty of ways to handle it. There could have been a diverse pool of candidates that each site supplied that Geoff or whoever he delegated this to could appoint from. The point is that this is not really 'tricky' to solve as some people have suggested.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

The outlets choose who to send. Ensuring a 50/50 split means going to a site and saying "give me a woman." Is that what you want?

Yeah, they couldn't do that; think of the responses they'd get. "I don't think we should send one of our women; I mean, all the women reviewers we hire are just TERRIBLE. But we do have another white guy!"

/s

It's not unusual for awards presentations to cherry-pick members from various organizations rather than accepting random representatives, and they often do that specifically with an eye for diversity. It's not some outlandish idea to think that this awards show could go to IGN (for example) and ask for someone by name, rather than just "whoever you want." How is that a bad thing?

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Why not have each site send a male and a female if we're worried about equality?

This is literally what I instantly thought of. Fixes the issie completely

 

[dose]

I agree with this wholeheartedly, The "diversity for the sake of diversity" business never sat well with me.

Yep, this PC stuff is getting ridiculous. Making it 50/50 just for the sake of it is stupid.

 

[Mesoian]

Why not have each site send a male and a female if we're worried about equality?

Because there are a lot of places that literally cannot do that. Because no women work there in an editorial compacity.

 

[vin-buc]

We don't need proof of malice to prove that there is an issue with sexism in the industry. This is not the first time that a collection of white men have been the sole representatives at a gaming event. Literally no one is saying that a woman should be forced to participate in something against her will, either.

Wrong and wrong. You do need proof of malice if you're making accusations of sexism. Sexism (or discrimination of any type) is cause for litigation/legal action. Larger publications have HR groups that monitor these claims.

Also - killscreen saying that if it's not 50/50 they want to be withdrawn. So if they're (for example) the most qualified to fill the role of judge - they've just handicapped the event since they are demanding a 50/50 split (forcing).

 

[D4Danger]

Yep, this PC stuff is getting ridiculous. Making it 50/50 just for the sake of it is stupid.

pssst the audience is 50/50

but just ignore that

 

[jmood88]

Yep, this PC stuff is getting ridiculous. Making it 50/50 just for the sake of it is stupid.

What does any of this have to do with being politically correct?

 

[Htown]

Yep, this PC stuff is getting ridiculous. Making it 50/50 just for the sake of it is stupid.

It's a lot less stupid than making it 93-7 just for the sake of it.

 

[Zornack]

pssst the audience is 50/50

but just ignore that

You really believe that?

 

[jmizzal]

I would gladly be happy with more females and more diversity if it means that that the top games doesnt have to be M rated bloody games.

I still cant get over the year Mario Galaxy was the highest rated game of the year but none of the same people who reviewed it giving it those ratings voted it to even be nominated for GOTY, made no sense.

Almost like they were like this is not mature enough to be GOTY

 

[diaspora]

You really believe that?

He doesn't need to, it's true.

 

[viveks86]

There are plenty of ways to handle it. There could have been a diverse pool of candidates that each site supplied that Geoff or whoever he delegated this to could appoint from. The point is that this is not really 'tricky' to solve as some people have suggested.

Agreed. Was just thinking out loud.

It seems like it would depend on what the categories are, right? I mean, in categories like "Best Graphics," or "Best PS4 Game," what would racial or gender diversity accomplish in helping more accurately deliver the awards to those who most deserve it?

I'm obviously not saying diversity is a bad thing, and it's a shame that games journalism is mostly white males, but I guess I just don't see what is wrong with it in this specific context.

"Best graphics" may not require diversity, but "Best PS4 game" certainly does. How a game is received by both genders is an important factor in judging its merits (and demerits), right? Race too is a factor, but not as significant an issue as gender (imo). So it's important that people start recognizing the gender problem first.

Geoff probably hadn't given enough thought about the issue. People raising it now might persuade him to reconsider

 

[spyroflame0487]

I literally have no idea who even these people are and i dont really care about that. Tell me who wins the games and some reasons why.

When are the computers gonna take over so we can stop worrying about shit like this.

 

[JDSN]

Obviously the picks are the most qualified person for the job, I cant think of a single woman or minority that would replace the worthy contribution of the likes of Tal Beblings.

 

[jmood88]

Wrong and wrong. You do need proof of malice if you're making accusations of sexism. Sexism (or discrimination of any type) is cause for litigation/legal action. Larger publications have HR groups that monitor these claims.

Also - killscreen saying that if it's not 50/50 they want to be withdrawn. So if they're (for example) the most qualified to fill the role of judge - they've just handicapped the event since they are demanding a 50/50 split (forcing).

I'm not suing anyone so discussions of what you need for litigation are completely irrelevant.

 

[D i Z]

If even Breitbart has an issue with a low number of women represented then you know you fucked up.

Spitting hot fire!

 

[Moonlight]

You really believe that?

Uh

Yes.

 

[diaspora]

Has the argument against gender and racial representation changed from "muh qualifications" to "it doesn't matter they just mail votes in"?

 

[Mesoian]

You really believe that?

There's more evidence for numbers around those margins (45/55 skewing down) than otherwise.

 

[donutzsick]

I normally hate polygon, but instead of bitching and complaining about others and pushing their idealogy onto others, they actually DID something about it THEMSELVES. Maybe if more people who supposedly care about diversity took action instead of bitching at others to take action for them, things would be different

 

[Atomic Playboy]

You really believe that?

Do you think it's more likely the audience is 97% men?

 

[Zornack]

He doesn't need to, it's true.

No it's not. Name a single mobile game that has had a big showing at one of Geoff's award shows.

Do you think it's more likely the audience is 97% men?

No, not at all, and I'm not defending the jury's makeup.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Oh I have no doubt they do. Everyone should have a say. I just wonder if it's a problem in this specific context that the majority of the panel are white males, where the categories (I'm assuming) don't hinge on gender and race views. It stems from most game journalists being white males, so I'm not surprised that the majority in the panel are the same.

Are the majority of game players white males? (No) So why should the judges picking the games for the be all white males? In this context it is entirely a problem.

 

[Htown]

He doesn't need to, it's true.

last numbers I saw were 55-45, but close enough.

 

[igordennis]

You really believe that?

Do you believe in statistics? If yes then there should be no question.

 

[Mr. RHC]

I'll say again that I think that even if it was more evenly split the games chosen would be the same. Doesn't matter imo.

There still should be more women on that list.

 

[Mesoian]

No it's not. Name a single mobile game that has had a big showing at one of Geoff's award shows.



No, not at all, and I'm not defending the jury's makeup.

Real talk, 80 Days should have been there last year

And wasn't Monument Valley there two year ago?

 

[NinjamicWZ]

What?

Andrea Rene is one of the worst journalists. There are bad journalists on both sides.

You'll have to link me to some examples.

Even so, if there's any women in games journalism with terrible opinions it's because men with terrible opinions and taste run games journalism, so women would have to be even more cynical, jaded, uninformed, egotistical and biased in order to compete and be heard. Whatever men do poorly, women have to do twice as bad.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

Putting "women" in a thread title in the gaming section is always enough to get dozens of pages of shameful "I'm not sexist but [sexist remark]" posts. I think this in itself is a pretty big proof that the gaming community as a pretty big problem with sexism...

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Yep, this PC stuff is getting ridiculous. Making it 50/50 just for the sake of it is stupid.

A lot of times it's the only way to actually have some semblance of diversity. Yes it's shitty that organizations have to resort to that, but it's a response to the core of an even shittier issue. The world is not a level playing field and the sooner we stop pretending it is and offer these kinds of naive, utopian responses the sooner we can answer some meaningful questions, such as, why is there seemingly only 2 out of 32 capable women in games journalism. Either the people picking/sending the nominations are sexist, which I don't necessarily believe, or there simply are so few women journalists available or getting any type of real attention to merit them being chosen. Both scenarios are a problem.

If your stance is "well as long as they are choosing the best 32 people for the job..." Then my response would be "well then what is the deal with this industry where there are so few women who are "best for the job"?

 

[Mesoian]

You'll have to link me to some examples.

Even so, if there's any women in games journalism with terrible opinions it's because men with terrible opinions and taste run games journalism, so women would have to be even more cynical, jaded, uninformed, egotistical and biased in order to compete and be heard. Whatever men do poorly, women have to do twice as bad.

Eh, I don't know if a gender fueled race to the bottom really a good excuse.

 

[diaspora]

No it's not. Name a single mobile game that has had a big showing at one of Geoff's award shows.



No, not at all, and I'm not defending the jury's makeup.

Blow it out your ass:

It is true that 58% of mobile gamers in the U.S. are women. But it is also true that just over 50% of American PC gamers are women. In fact, women are the largest gaming demographic for PC role-playing games (54%) and they represent almost 40% of MMO and digital console gamers. So to say that women are just casual gamers is empirically false.

 

[Zaph]

This is disappointing, but haven't Geoff Keighley's award shows always invited the EiC or most senior editor at each publication? If the individual publications want to sub out that invite for somebody else, that's really cool of them (gj Polygon), but blaming the award show itself for doing a pretty basic, and not unusual, professional courtesy seems silly.

Being of colour, I'm really glad this industry is starting to spread its wings after so, so long, but it's unrealistic to expect that to be reflected in the most senior positions within publications already.

I suppose other ways would be for the award show to directly hand-pick minorities/women from each publication or politely request some EiC's to nominate a minority/woman from their team instead. But both options there seem to come with a whole host of their own issues, besides being in poor taste and presumptuous.

 

[pantsmith]

Also - killscreen saying that if it's not 50/50 they want to be withdrawn. So if they're (for example) the most qualified to fill the role of judge - they've just handicapped the event since they are demanding a 50/50 split (forcing).

They aren't demanding or forcing anything, they just don't want to be a part of it.

Taking a step back and trying to plan a more diverse panel is likely a way better route than just arbitrary choosing the "most qualified" judge, when what does that even mean when it comes to judging the arbitrary "game of the year"?

"Best Video Game" means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. It would seem to me that better representation of diverse opinions will only ever be a good thing.