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[Atomic Playboy]

Unless you think Geoff was purposely being sexist when picking the judges (which I don't) I just can't feign outrage over this.

I don't think it was intentional. It sounds like he targeted major media outlets and asked them to submit representatives and virtually every one of them chose a man. It's understandable; it's also predictable, and a reason why a lot of professional awards organizations will cherry-pick members to serve on juries, not just leave it up to the various outlets they work with. I work in a non-profit, and when one of my co-workers was selected to serve on a jury for a national non-profit award group, she was hand-selected by the committee. They weren't going to call up a non-profit and just say "pick an employee to represent you"; they wanted to pick individuals they knew would bring a diversity of opinion. Geoff could have deliberately selected individuals and insured a diverse panel; he didn't, and the result underscored the general lack of diversity in the gaming media. That still falls back on the person in charge of the process.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

No, it's not equally bad. It's worse.

You'd prefer a world in which this group was mandated by law to represent the current diversity percentages? Do we use worldwide statistics or local statistics for your ideal? While we're putting in gender quotas, we should also add ethnicity/race quotas as well, right? Religion? Eye color? At what point do we stop enforcing diversity once we begin? When it suits you?

Or, on the other hand, we can allow free societies filled with free individuals to freely choose who panels some relatively meaningless competition. They might not always choose a group that meets your preferred criteria, but at least we're not enforcing diversity for the sake of diversity.

The world isn't always going to look like you want it to. Forcing others to obey your mandate is not the solution. There are many other avenues to pursue. Using force to mandate something as meaningless as a judging panel is the realm of bureaucrats and fascists.

Jesus fucking christ, I honestly didn't expect people on GAF to be this dense, but here we are.

Let me explain in the clearest possible terms; these decisions were not and never were freely made in a vacuum. They are 'freely' made insofar as they have been unconsciously influenced by society and culture. Unwritten assumptions we generally are not consciously aware of.

One of those is our historical devaluing of female opinions. Look at how society treats female experts and academics. There is a reason why female academics are almost always only credited by media as co-authors of studies even if they were the team leader. There are reasons why media refer to husband/wife research teams with the male as the researcher and female as his wife.

There are reasons why chief justices in nearly every country are majority male despite the number of female law graduates eclipsing male grads. There are reasons why women CEOs are far fewer in number. There are reasons why female candidates for political office are asked bizarre questions about whether others will perceive them as weak or if they smile enough.

And here's the hint; the answer isn't qualification or merit.

 

[Royal Rainbow]

No, but most don't care as much about the industry itself.

Maybe that's because there aren't many women in the industry to identify with?

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

No, but most don't care as much about the industry itself.


My guess is different priorities in life.

And you know this exactly how?

 

[Mael]

My guess is different priorities in life.

Of course, if only they scheduled the awards at another time than during a cooking contest on a popular channel...
Wtf am I reading?

 

[Vault Dweller 111]

Your loss. There are plenty of interesting women writing about games. Not nearly enough, but if you view gaming medias as 100% male, that's sad. Broaden your horizons.

I sometimes listen to Giant Bomb/Beastcast. I'm aware of Kinda Funny Games. And I think Jim Sterling is an excellent reviewer. I don't fucking dedicate my life to this shit.

 

[Lime]

In all actuality, I'd be surprised if Keighley had much direct involvement with the selection process.

Yeah I mostly just consider him to be apathetic pawn who mostly thinks about the business aspects of these things rather than being cognizant on the political aspects of what he is doing and reproducing.

I wish he and his team could / would do better, but this is the Game Awards, so my expectations are already low.

I also wish the publications would do better. But they are part of the system already so they don't know or really care.

 

[Mael]

I sometimes listen to Giant Bomb/Beastcast. I'm aware of Kinda Funny Games. And I think Jim Sterling is an excellent reviewer. I don't fucking dedicate my life to this shit.

So now, you're not the representative of all gamers out there that knows who to listen and who to avoid?

 

[TheStruggler]

Mr. Trudeau would like a word with you...

 

[-=::[Eagle-Vision]::=-]

Maybe that's because there aren't many women in the industry to identify with?

Maybe, but I don't think so.

And you know this exactly how?

Look at how many female videogame critics exist in comparison to male critics.

Of course, if only they scheduled the awards at another time than during a cooking contest on a popular channel...
Wtf am I reading?

Do you believe women belong in the kitchen? You disgust me.

 

[Vault Dweller 111]

So now, you're not the representative of all gamers out there that knows who to listen and who to avoid?

Oh, I said that?

My bad, must've blacked out.

 

[Lord of Ostia]

No, but most don't care as much about the industry itself.


My guess is different priorities in life.

This is complete conjecture, you cannot prove this. They are tons of women who are interested in the gaming industry. Nothing about gender indicates whether or not you will have interest in the gaming industry.

 

[Mael]

Do you believe women belong in the kitchen? You disgust me.

How about you provide something to show that you didn't talk out of your ass instead of missing obvious irony?

Oh, I said that?

My bad, must've blacked out.

When you said

Every person in the gaming media that I follow be it podcast, show, article, etc. is a guy. I couldn't name one female in the gaming industry media. Maybe that speaks to a bigger issue. But when it comes to the judges for this award show, the number does not surprise me even a little bit.

Unless you think Geoff was purposely being sexist when picking the judges (which I don't) I just can't feign outrage over this.

I assumed you talked about a position of authority or something.
I know literally no one in the boxing scene, I would be surprised if a similar panel only had men or women.

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

Are you honestly suggesting female journalists are so comically incompetent the only way for their views to heard is by quota?

I'm not the one arguing for quotas, you know. I'm arguing against them. But it seems like this is the result we get without them at this time.

The insulting part is you assuming having more women means they'd likely be less skilled, IMO.

Have you read any of my other posts? I just pointed out, on this very page, that ~86% of reviewers are male. Well, we need to choose 32 people from this pool(it's less, actually, but let's just go with that for now.). 32 is ~14.5% of 220, which is the number of journalists employed at the outlets listed earlier. That means our panel should consist of 5 women and 27 men, if we were to only pick people from these outlets, and they were the only ones represented on the panel.

Considering the uncertainty in these numbers, and the fact that other outlets, as well as developers, are also represented, I'd say that gets pretty close to the actual representation.

 

[AlimNassor]

Yep. I'm a sexist pig who actively avoids all females in the industry.

You certainly aren't helping them now are you?

 

[-=::[Eagle-Vision]::=-]

This is complete conjecture, you cannot prove this. They are tons of women who are interested in the gaming industry. Nothing about gender indicates whether or not you will have interest in the gaming industry.

Are there? Where?

How you provide something to show that you didn't talk out of your ass instead of missing obvious irony?

Yeah, don't try to weasel out of your sexist remarks. Own your words and apologize.

 

[Vault Dweller 111]

You certainly aren't helping them now are you?

Didn't know I was supposed too.


Do you watch the WNBA?

 

[cheesekao]

So now, you're not the representative of all gamers out there that knows who to listen and who to avoid?

Holy shit you're making a mountain out of a mole hill here. That poster doesn't actively avoid women podcasters because he chooses to. It's just that the chances of stumbling into a male podcaster rather than a female one is just higher, generally speaking.

 

[shoryukens]

1. this is not a good thing. just because it exists in A does not mean it should be reproduced in B.
2. Something should be done about sexism and racism and other forms of exclusion/oppression in video games.

1. I agree, but in this case A and B are very much related to each other so why expect them to be different?

2. I wholeheartedly agree, I'm not defending this by any means.

 

[StoveOven]

I just want to come to the defense of Geoff Keighly and the event as a whole for a minute. Last year they gave a lifetime achievement award to Roberta Williams, and this year one of the music groups is lead by a very outspoken feminist. Both of these are going to inspire more girls/women watching the show than a list of names on a website of people who emailed in a list of their favorite games.

 

[AlimNassor]

Didn't know I was supposed too.


Do you watch the WNBA?

if you had any shred of empathy you would.

no, I dont watch sports but, I would support them still if needed.

 

[Royal Rainbow]

Do you believe women belong in the kitchen? You disgust me.

Of course not, they just care more about kitchens.

Spoiler

I am obviously being sarcastic, don't try to accuse me of being sexist too

 

[Goldenroad]

These major video game outlets are the major ones for a reason. If you really want to take a stand on this issue, then stop visiting Giant Bomb and IGN, and for that matter delete your Neogaf account. You can't honestly think there is a 50/50 split between men and women on this site. I assume anyone having a problem with the ratio for this awards show will be withholding from GAF's GOTY 2015 voting.

I'm not trying to be facetious or condescending here either. I honestly believe that if I had a stronger will I could probably stay away from this nonsense, but unfortunately I seem to enjoy video games more than I really want to take a stand on women's rights, and that's pretty sad.

 

[Brazil]

I just want to come to the defense of Geoff Keighly and the event as a whole for a minute. Last year they gave a lifetime achievement award to Roberta Williams, and this year one of the music groups is lead by a very outspoken feminist. Both of these are going to inspire more girls/women watching the show than a list of names on a website of people who emailed in a list of their favorite games.

It's really saddening that people are trying to portray Geoff as the one to blame for an entire industry's problem, as if he was the one who chose editors for each website and vehicle in the media.

 

[Lime]

2. I wholeheartedly agree, I'm not defending this by any means.

Cool, that is what this thread is about, i.e. the question "how could this have been avoided" instead of both Geoff and the publications in question sit on their hands? And why ignore/overlook the other critics and publications in video games that actually do have more awareness about women?

 

[Mael]

Yeah, don't try to weasel out of your sexist remarks. Own your words and apologize.

You're either new here or your sarcasm detector is busted.
Now how about something that would point to showing that the award is mostly watched by white men?

Holy shit you're making a mountain out of a mole hill here. He doesn't actively avoid women podcasters because he chooses to. It's just that the chances of stumbling into a male podcaster rather than a female one is just higher.

I get that, that doesn't mean that there's so little women in the field that a panel of that size would be so lopsided.

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

You are saying this as if there aren't women who are more than qualified in the industry to state their opinion which is bs. Another thing that is also grating is this quantity over everything that's also argued. Just because a male journalist had 100+ articles to his resume doesn't mean 95% of them were of actual quality. And just because a women has 75, doesn't mean hers are automatically less qualified and crap.

Women who play games and have reviewed them are qualified to state their opinion, especially in an industry where half the journalist do not make games but critique them. This sounds like women are less capable of "understanding" video games than men when that's just not the case. They exist and it's insulting that with everything they do, they still are jumped over because they are at a serious disadvantage due to exposure.

We're all qualified to state our opinions, obviously, but are you really arguing that experience doesn't generally make you a better reviewer?

Should my Uncle Soren be on the panel then? He doesn't really play games, but he does watch movies from time to time, and is an expert on the stock market. He's also part of the not-at-all represented +60 demography. I'm sure he'd have a unique perspective on the VGA's.

 

[Resident_UA]

This sucks, but it looks to me that Polygon is just looking for attention again. There's probably some good article that could be written about this topic, but I'm really not sure what they are getting by "removing themselves" aside from publicity...

 

[Deleted member 126221]

Are there? Where?


Yeah, don't try to weasel out of your sexist remarks. Own your words and apologize.

Oh boy... These threads are always so sad...

 

[entremet]

Geoff is a great guy. He finances these shows on his own to great risk.

He lost money last year.

It's only it's 2nd year. Please consider that for those who are boycotting. Could it been done better? Yes.

But that's why feedback is important. I don't think he will ignore these concerns.

 

[Haunted]

we need to be careful, there are a lot of straw men in here and sparks are starting to fly

 

[Faenix1]

if I'm reading this right some would rather have females for females sake, than males with actual game knowledge judge games?

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

What does a 50/50 gender split mean?

Is 50% of the gaming media female?
Or is it because 50% of the population is female?
Or 50% of gamers are female..?

At the very least, it shouldn't be 1/32... but I don't know what an appropriate number would be.

Come on, dude. 50/50 means 16 each gender.

Don't try to make this a thing.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

You need to chug Mountain Dew.

I wish I had a gif w/ subtitles of the girl in the beginning of Zombieland that says "Is this Mountain Dew?!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBTKHusTFjk

 

[Hip Hop]

Geoff is a great guy. He finances these shows on his own to great risk.

He lost money last year.

It's only it's 2nd year. Please consider that for those who are boycotting. Could it been done better? Yes.

But that's why feedback is important. I don't think he will ignore these concerns.

There's people boycotting? lol

 

[cheesekao]

I get that, that doesn't mean that there's so little women in the field that a panel of that size would be so lopsided.

It kinda is, at least for these sites.

Here are the gender breakdowns for each site (at least of those I can find)

AusGamers - 12 men/1 woman
Electric Playground - 6 men/2 women
Game Informer - 16 men/1 woman
Gamespot - 29 men/10 women
Gamesradar - 15 men/6 women
GiantBomb - 9 men/0 women
IGN - 62 men/9 women
PC Gamer - 13 men/0 women
Polygon - 17 men/5 women
US Gamer - 6 men/1 woman

 

[Macka]

This social justice stuff is really getting ridiculous.

What is the ratio of men:women in professional games journalism? I'd imagine the Jury likely reflects a skewed gender balance in the industry itself.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

if I'm reading this right some would rather have females for females sake, than males with actual game knowledge judge games?

You're not reading this right.

 

[AlimNassor]

We're all qualified to state our opinions, obviously, but are you really arguing that experience doesn't generally make you a better reviewer?

Should my Uncle Soren be on the panel then? He doesn't really play games, but he does watch movies from time to time, and is an expert on the stock market. He's also part of the not-at-all represented +60 demography. I'm sure he'd have a unique perspective on the VGA's.

There are dozens of women reviewers out there that are more qualified then many of these men. The fact they aren't white straight males means they'll never get that chance with the way the industry is now.

 

[Mael]

if I'm reading this right some would rather have females for females sake, than males with actual game knowledge judge games?

Of course, you can't possibly find more than 2 women who knows anything about games.
They should have included people from Sewing magazines because clearly you can never find women who know anything about games.

It kinda is.

You misunderstand.
There's not so little representation that the fact that he knows no ones means that there should be none.

 

[Vault Dweller 111]

if you had any shred of empathy you would.

no, I dont watch sports but, I would support them still if needed.

Just to be clear, if anyone has a hobby it is their duty to make sure that women are equally represented in that industry?

I shouldn't be looking for content I enjoy, the only think that matters is me doing my best to get women more involved in the industry?

Every NBA game I watch, I must also watch a WNBA game. And I shouldn't rest until there is a women in the NFL?

What is this shit?

 

[-=::[Eagle-Vision]::=-]

You're either new here or your sarcasm detector is busted.

No, I get it. You tried to project sexist beliefs onto me in an attempt to assassinate my character so you wouldn't have to address the arguments. Too bad, you failed and I had some fun

Now how about something that would point to showing that the award is mostly watched by white men?

That's easy, how many in this thread are women? How many complaining on Twitter about this are women? It's mostly men because it's mostly men who care about this show.

 

[Lime]

It's really saddening that people are trying to portray Geoff as the one to blame for an entire industry's problem, as if he was the one who chose editors for each website and vehicle in the media.

Everyone is to blame despite not intending anything harmful. From Geoff choosing who to contact to the employees writing the e-mails, to the publications selecting their representatives to hiring practices to internal company culture. We all need to do better.

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

There are dozens of women reviewers out there that are more qualified then many of these men. The fact they aren't white straight males means they'll never get that chance with the way the industry is now.

Who? Where? Why?

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Geoff is a great guy. He finances these shows on his own to great risk.

He lost money last year.

It's only it's 2nd year. Please consider that for those who are boycotting. Could it been done better? Yes.

But that's why feedback is important. I don't think he will ignore these concerns.

I don't think average citizens boycotting would have much effect anyway because the money's going to be coming from people generally unconcerned with this type of thing but yeah, sensible feedback is good.

 

[Bluenoser]

Is it not possible that the editors of these media outlets went to their staff, and said, hey, Geoff Keighley is looking for jurors for the game awards. Any volunteers?

Some people here are all disgusted like there was some deliberate lack of inclusion of women, when the truth may be much more innocent. Sure there are plenty of ELIGIBLE female journalists who COULD participate, but what if they didn't want to?

Without knowing the details, I think the vitriol in this thread is a bit much.

 

[Mael]

No, I get it. You tried to project sexist beliefs onto me in an attempt to assassinate my character so you wouldn't have to address the arguments. Too bad, you failed and I had some fun

Your post is more sad than anything.

That's easy, how many in this thread are women? How many complaining on Twitter about this are women? It's mostly men because it's mostly men who care about this show.

Nice try.
Only Gaf Gold have access to the gender icon on Gaf
and Juniors don't have access to this.
And it's mostly conjecture on your part really.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

This social justice stuff is really getting ridiculous.

I really wonder if people, especially those that understand inequality, stop and think before using the term "social justice" or "social justice warrior". It's like when people think their racism isn't racism because it's "more intelligent". If you're trying to argue that trying to fill juror spots with women for a video game awards show isn't directly tied to the issue of the portrayal of women involved in the industry, you're fooling yourself hardcore.

 

[Haunted]

if I'm reading this right some would rather have females for females sake, than males with actual game knowledge judge games?

Are you implying that there aren't 16 capable women with actual game knowledge?

 

[cheesekao]

You misunderstand.
There's not so little representation that the fact that he knows no ones means that there should be none.

From what I can infer from his post, he was saying that him not finding female podcasters has more to do with the fact that industry itself has far fewer females than males rather than it just being due to his personal tastes. I don't think he's wrong. I don't think he implied the bolded.