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[Dice//]

I find it telling that posters here are citing competency as a defence when the issue of poor representation is brought up, while automatically assuming all the white guys involved are competent.

Very succinctly put.
I'm surprised "merit" is the best defence, maybe to the uninformed I guess.

 

[Hip Hop]

Are you implying that there aren't 16 capable women with actual game knowledge?

that edit

 

[Acerac]

No, I get it. You tried to project sexist beliefs onto me in an attempt to assassinate my character so you wouldn't have to address the arguments. Too bad, you failed and I had some fun


That's easy, how many in this thread are women? How many complaining on Twitter about this are women? It's mostly men because it's mostly men who care about this show.

Your post history dates are very strange.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Didn't know I was supposed too.


Do you watch the WNBA?

This guy is clowning

 

[norm9]

There's plenty of foreigners on the list. That's pretty good.

 

[entremet]

I don't think average citizens boycotting would have much effect anyway because the money's going to be coming from people generally unconcerned with this type of thing but yeah, sensible feedback is good.

I'm just saying that people wanted an awards show that was not an embarrassment and Geoff delivered last year, with very little resources.

Are The Game Awards perfect? No. I think the feedback is valid, but let's forgot the good Geoff has done to bring some respectability to these shows.

It's just the 2nd show too. It will get better.

 

[ExVicis]

if I'm reading this right some would rather have females for females sake, than males with actual game knowledge judge games?

No people are asking for more females with actual knowledge. Shocking that they exist right?

Seriously though this thread I getting ridiculous. People blaming Geoff as if he had a hand in this. This is not his fault, he didn't decide who those publications would send and he is also not the one who decided those organizations should hire more men than women.

I feel like people just come in here to be outraged but then don't take the time to actually care and learn about what they're outraged at.

 

[Resident_UA]

Are you implying that there aren't 16 capable women with actual game knowledge?

There are thousands of women with "actual game knowledge". I don't think that's what's being discussed here

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

Are you implying that there aren't 16 capable women with actual game knowledge?

No one is saying that. Just that there are fewer capable women than men in this field, and thus equal representation doesn't mean 50/50.

 

[Mael]

From what I can infer from his post, he was saying that him not finding female podcasters has more to do with the fact that industry itself has far fewer females than males rather than it just being due to his personal tastes. I don't think he's wrong.

If he doesn't find female podcasters or journalists because of his interests, that's fine.
he implied that because he didn't know any, it meant that it was normal that there weren't many represented in the panel.
That's different.

 

[Vault Dweller 111]

This guy is clowning

How so?

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

We're all qualified to state our opinions, obviously, but are you really arguing that experience doesn't generally make you a better reviewer?

Should my Uncle Soren be on the panel then? He doesn't really play games, but he does watch movies from time to time, and is an expert on the stock market. He's also part of the not-at-all represented +60 demography. I'm sure he'd have a unique perspective on the VGA's.

I'm arguing that your statement is screaming "Women are less qualified so would you feel better that we add then to fill a quota instead of taking into consideration their lack of qualification and possibly quality."

Because imo, you are essentially questioning a women's ability and work qualifications to join a panel but do not have that same reservation for a man thus unconstitutiously eluding that it would be insulting if women were just there without any skills that makes them equal to the male judge.

In smaller words...


... There are women
.... There are just as many qualified women panel nominees that should not have been a second thought..
... This industry doesn't allow those women who are out there to get the exposure thus making it seem like they are less than their male counterparts because you can't name drop them at the dime of a hat like you can with Ben Kutchera or whomever.

All of what you are saying isn't even about if women are equal to them.. But questioning if they are essentially good enough when that's a lie. There are and it's very disappointed that they are looked over or even worse, compared on quantity rather than quality.

I doubt that the women in this industry are drastically worst than the men in this industry. And because there are so few of them, that all of a sudden, the small minority they are within is very hard to choose from. They are qualified and if they had the exposure, we would be able to see how much more they can contribute.

 

[StoveOven]

There's plenty of foreigners on the list. That's pretty good.

I noticed that too. I was actually pleasantly surprised when I saw how international the list was.

 

[-=::[Eagle-Vision]::=-]

Nice try.
Only Gaf Gold have access to the gender icon on Gaf
and Juniors don't have access to this.
And it's mostly conjecture on your part really.

Don't take my word for it. Take a look for yourself. The evidence is pretty clear. No rhetoric on your part will change it.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

Is it not possible that the editors of these media outlets went to their staff, and said, hey, Geoff Keighley is looking for jurors for the game awards. Any volunteers?

Some people here are all disgusted like there was some deliberate lack of inclusion of women, when the truth may be much more innocent. Sure there are plenty of ELIGIBLE female journalists who COULD participate, but what if they didn't want to?

Without knowing the details, I think the vitriol in this thread is a bit much.

Whether it's deliberate or not doesn't change much. I don't think the goal was to consciously push women away from the event, yet look at the result.

A lot of people here need to understand that sexism is often a lot more subtle than caricatural women-haters.

 

[WickedLaharl]

Your post history dates are very strange.

it's a pretty blatant alt account lol

 

[Ogodei]

We all have an obligation to try to make things better. Even something as banal and irrelevant as The Game Awards should at least strive to make a better industry by demanding diversity in the body which is presumably reflecting the audience. So if not 50/50, they should at least try to exceed viewership demos for the previous TGA (so say, if previous demos were 30% female, they should have at least 12 women on the jury now).

 

[Goldenroad]

I think a simple solution would be for Geoff to just add more jurors. Just go out and ask another dozen or so women to join. I don't think it's fair to ask Geoff to pull anyone who's already on the jury, but he could ask some of the sites who have multiple female reviewers (Polygon, Gamespot, etc.) to consider allowing a couple from each site to join on. 64 juror's is way too many, and rounding up 32 female reviewers, who could actually find the time to do this on short notice, would be difficult, but would 12 suffice for everyone for this year, and next year work toward a more equal split? I'm not saying that this is THE solution, but it seems a like reasonable and inoffensive solution.

 

[AlimNassor]

Is it not possible that the editors of these media outlets went to their staff, and said, hey, Geoff Keighley is looking for jurors for the game awards. Any volunteers?

Some people here are all disgusted like there was some deliberate lack of inclusion of women, when the truth may be much more innocent. Sure there are plenty of ELIGIBLE female journalists who COULD participate, but what if they didn't want to?

Without knowing the details, I think the vitriol in this thread is a bit much.

Many of us are fucking sick of the way people brush off any discussion about women or POCs.

Just to be clear, if anyone has a hobby it is their duty to make sure that women are equally represented in that industry?

I shouldn't be looking for content I enjoy, the only think that matters is me doing my best to get women more involved in the industry?

Every NBA game I watch, I must also watch a WNBA game. And I shouldn't rest until there is a women in the NFL?

What is this shit?

Yes why can't there be an equal representation in every fucking industry?

If you had a shred of empathy in you then yes you would. Accepting things the way they are is a sad state of affairs.

 

[Brazil]

Everyone is to blame despite not intending anything harmful. From Geoff choosing who to contact to the employees writing the e-mails, to the publications selecting their representatives to hiring practices to internal company culture. We all need to do better.

And yet people are going to boycott The Game Awards, a show that recognized the importance of Roberta Williams in its very first edition, because of this?

Promptly boycott every single website and game released, then, if that's the case.

We should definitely talk about this, but the pointing of fingers thing is such an infantile way to react to this. It will make you feel better right now and fix absolutely nothing.

 

[-=::[Eagle-Vision]::=-]

Your post history dates are very strange.

I was banned long ago for posting some Metroid Prime 2 scans I think and I moved on to other forums. Only recently did I remember I had an account here lol.

 

[Vault Dweller 111]

If he doesn't find female podcasters or journalists because of his interests, that's fine.
he implied that because he didn't know any, it meant that it was normal that there weren't many represented in the panel.
That's different.

Actually I said that number didn't surprise ME.

The chart was posted. If Geoff asked every major outlet to send over one representative the chances were very good that each individual outlet would pick a man, simply because of who works there.

 

[Royal Rainbow]

No, I get it. You tried to project sexist beliefs onto me in an attempt to assassinate my character so you wouldn't have to address the arguments. Too bad, you failed and I had some fun

Talk about projection...

 

[FF Seraphim]

If I am reading this correctly the individual sites picked a judge from their own business to represent them... So with that understanding how is it anyone's fault that only two women were picked out of 32 judges when each site acted independently from each other? Would it appease everyone if said sites told us how they picked their judge? Arguing for a 50/50 split is kinda hard with them acting as they did. Maybe next time there would be better communication who knows but that doesn't mean we will get a 50/50 next time either. I rather the sites pick who they believe are most qualified.

 

[Vault Dweller 111]

Many of us are fucking sick of the way people brush off any discussion about women or POCs.



Yes why can't there be an equal representation in every fucking industry?

If you had a shred of empathy in you then yes you would. Accepting things the way they are is a sad state of affairs.

You have to be kidding....

You are throwing out all logic and just saying shit that sounds good to you, and that is completely ridiculous.

 

[Trogdor1123]

If they're qualified critics, I see little issue. There could be 32 women and that would be fine.

I agree, does it really matter if they are all capable? The issue should always be skill and ability to fulfill the role.

 

[Mael]

I was banned long ago for posting some Metroid Prime 2 scans I think and I moved on to other forums. Only recently did I remember I had an account here lol.

Junior bans are perma here.

Actually I said that number didn't surprise ME.

The chart was posted. If Geoff asked every major outlet to send over one representative the chances were very good that each individual outlet would pick a man, simply because of who works there.

Considering how the industry works, I don't think anyone is surprised.
I dare say it was expected, that it is something that is a problem or not is the issue here.
That's what I'm discussing anyway.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

i know what to blame if they give the award to fallout

 

[SolicitorPirate]

Just to be clear, if anyone has a hobby it is their duty to make sure that women are equally represented in that industry?

I shouldn't be looking for content I enjoy, the only think that matters is me doing my best to get women more involved in the industry?

Every NBA game I watch, I must also watch a WNBA game. And I shouldn't rest until there is a women in the NFL?

What is this shit?

It's not your duty. It is however in your best interest.

The more points of view and backgrounds we get into gaming, the more varied the industry's output will be. Unless literally all you want is adolescent power fantasies, this is a good thing.

Some people in this thread have been appealing for empathy. I think this is unnecessary. Basic fucking self interest should be enough motivation to push for diversity.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

I agree, does it really matter if they are all capable? The issue should always be skill and ability to fulfill the role.

How does that go against having more women?

 

[Mael]

I agree, does it really matter if they are all capable? The issue should always be skill and ability to fulfill the role.

This is the game awards, what skills do you need?
Is there some rocket science shit I'm missing?

Don't take my word for it. Take a look for yourself. The evidence is pretty clear. No rhetoric on your part will change it.

Provide these evidences instead of dancing around the issue.

 

[Bluenoser]

Whether it's deliberate or not doesn't change much. I don't think the goal was to consciously push women away from the event, yet look at the result.

A lot of people here need to understand that sexism is often a lot more subtle than caricatural women-haters.

In my scenario, I'm suggesting perhaps there was not an overwhelming interest from the female journalist group. Maybe there was and the men got picked over them, but we don't know how the end result came to be.

You can't FORCE women to participate if they don't want to. It was likely easier to find male jurors since there was a much larger pool to choose from, but that's another issue.

 

[AlimNassor]

Actually I said that number didn't surprise ME.

The chart was posted. If Geoff asked every major outlet to send over one representative the chances were very good that each individual outlet would pick a man, simply because of who works there.

You don't see a problem with this? Yet you wonder why you're getting so much shit.

 

[Bluenoser]

Many of us are fucking sick of the way people brush off any discussion about women or POCs.



Yes why can't there be an equal representation in every fucking industry?

If you had a shred of empathy in you then yes you would. Accepting things the way they are is a sad state of affairs.

Calm down? Jesus.

 

[Macka]

I really wonder if people, especially those that understand inequality, stop and think before using the term "social justice" or "social justice warrior". It's like when people think their racism isn't racism because it's "more intelligent".

I didn't really know what to call this tbh, but 'social justice' felt like the best fit. It sure as hell isn't equality, judging from this thread. Most of these sites have far more male than female journalists, yes? Why should any of them be expected to specifically select female representatives rather than the just choosing the best people they have? Which, considering the gender imbalance on the team itself, is more than likely a man.

Would it be good if there was more than two women on this Jury? Of course, but I wouldn't immediately point to sexism as the cause of this.

 

[inky]

if I'm reading this right some would rather have females for females sake, than males with actual game knowledge judge games?

Read again because you couldn't be more wrong

 

[Gotdatmoney]

This thread is literally why I am embarassed of gamers. "Forced Diversity", "Why does having different gender view points matter?", "why is everything about equality", "Reverse Sexism".

If anyone can actually read the posts in this thread and not recognize that gamers have a boys club mentality they are probably to far gone to matter.

 

[Zaph]

These major video game outlets are the major ones for a reason. If you really want to take a stand on this issue, then stop visiting Giant Bomb and IGN, and for that matter delete your Neogaf account. You can't honestly think there is a 50/50 split between men and women on this site. I assume anyone having a problem with the ratio for this awards show will be withholding from GAF's GOTY 2015 voting.

I'm not trying to be facetious or condescending here either. I honestly believe that if I had a stronger will I could probably stay away from this nonsense, but unfortunately I seem to enjoy video games more than I really want to take a stand on women's rights, and that's pretty sad.

I think the big problem is that people expect/want grassroots progress to affect change throughout all echelons of the industry simultainiously. That's just not realistic and it can't happen - this (very young) industry started as predominantly white and male, so it's no surprise that's reflected in the most senior positions. There isn't many other places for them to go, unless we expect them to all quit out of the kindness of their heart.

Take a look at the Oscar voting process. That is an industry which is far older than gaming, is much more respected than gaming, and has more women and minorities creating content and fighting for change for than gaming. The voters are still 94% white, 77% male.

I've worked in two of the most classically racists, sexist, classist industries, and it's exhausting and I'm sick of it. But change is happening, I've seen it, I've been part of it. But it just never happens as fast and you want it to. By all means people should highlight this, but they shouldn't beat each other up about it.

 

[Fehyd]

The more points of view and backgrounds we get into gaming, the more varied the industry's output will be. Unless literally all you want is adolescent power fantasies, this is a good thing..

I can't even. Pack it up everyone, gaming right now is trash, everything is for man babies. Nothing appeals to anyone else. We're done here. No use gaming now.

 

[Lime]

And yet people are going to boycott The Game Awards, a show that recognized the importance of Roberta Williams in its very first edition, because of this?

Promptly boycott every single website and game released, then, if that's the case.

We should definitely talk about this, but the pointing of fingers thing is such an infantile way to react to this. It will make you feel better right now and fix absolutely nothing.

I think you are over-reading what people are saying. A systemic problem is being pointed out in this thread and the intent is to talk about how to do better (but mostly detractors are spouting sexist bullshit). That's all there is to it. Saying no one is to blame just make people sit on their hands and the status quo continues.

Something needs to be done. Someone needs to do something. Everyone involved in the decisionmaking process need to realize this and do something. This apathetic status quo bullshit just perpetuates the same systematic white dude magic we see again and again.

 

[Skux]

So what's the point of arguing about the gender of the jury if is a settled show , just enjoy it and do not care about the jury or wich game won an award....

This is NeoGAF, we've argued over much less haha

 

[Deleted member 126221]

I can't even. Pack it up everyone, gaming right now is trash, everything is for man babies. Nothing appeals to anyone else. We're done here. No use gaming now.

Wow, now that's extrapolation.

 

[Trogdor1123]

How does that go against having more women?

Never once said it did, in fact I agreed that it would be fine if they are all women. As long as they do a good job I could care less if they are purple people eaters.

 

[Vault Dweller 111]

You don't see a problem with this? Yet you wonder why you're getting so much shit.

Im not sure if you are talking about the industry in general or just this show.

But if Geoff went out of his way to send 16 of those invitations saying "send someone to be a judge, but it has to be a women." That'd be worse to me.

 

[-=::[Eagle-Vision]::=-]

Junior bans are perma here.

Clearly the rules were different back in the day

Provide these evidences instead of dancing around the issue.

This thread is evidence. Twitter comments are evidence. You're free to ignore it, though.

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

I'm arguing that your statement is screaming "Women are less qualified so would you feel better that we add then to fill a quota instead of taking into consideration their lack of qualification and possibly quality."

Because imo, you are essentially questioning a women's ability and work qualifications to join a panel but do not have that same reservation for a man thus unconstitutiously eluding that it would be insulting if women were just there without any skills that makes them equal to the male judge.

That is not what I am saying. I am saying that, if we treat men and women exactly the same, there should be more male reviewers on the panel than female. I say this because of the fact that there are simply more male reviewers in the gaming industry, and logically, there should therefore be more highly qualified and experienced male reviewers than female. I call it picking the best for the job. What it seems a lot of people here want is 16 women and 16 men, even if there are more experienced male reviewers,

I'm smaller words...

???

... There are women

Yes.

.... There are just as many qualified women panel nominees that should not have been a second thought..

Statistically, no.

... This industry doesn't allow those women who are out there to get the exposure thus making it seem like they are less than their male counterparts because you can't name drop them at the dime of a hat like you can with Ben Kutchera or whomever.

A valid point. I just don't think this should be solved by creating an artificially equal panel. It should be solved by attracting more women to the industry. Again, if that is even possible. As a private person, I think the best thing you can do is encourage anyone you know with an interest in games to start blogging, vlogging, or what ever, about games. Sooner or later, someone is bound to make it big. Artifiacially constructing an "equal" panel is just obscuring the issue. The ratio of men to women will still be 9 to 1, and that is the problem we should be looking at.

All of what you are saying isn't even about if women are equal to them.. But questioning if they are essentially good enough when that's a lie. There are and it's very disappointed that they are looked over or even worse, compared on quantity rather than quality.

I really don't think you've understood my posts so far.

 

[Mael]

I think the big problem is that people expect/want grassroots progress to affect change throughout all echelons of the industry simultainiously. That's just not realistic and it can't happen - this (very young) industry started as predominantly white and male, so it's no surprise that's reflected in the most senior positions. There isn't many other places for them to go, unless we expect them to all quit out of the goodness of their heart.

Take a look at the Oscar voting process. That is an industry which is far older than gaming, is much more respected than gaming, and has more women and minorities creating content and fighting for change for than gaming. The voters are still 94% white, 77% male.

I've worked in two of the most classically racists, sexist, classist industries, and it's exhausting and I'm sick of it. But change is happening, I've seen it, I've been part of it. But it just never happens as fast and you want it to. By all means people should highlight this, but they shouldn't beat each other up about it.

the game industry may be young but it moves quickly and as such we kinda expect everything to move much more quickly than other old industries.

 

[Trogdor1123]

This is the game awards, what skills do you need?
Is there some rocket science shit I'm missing?

Haha who knows. I'm sure, or at least hope, there was some kinda of criteria. I'd be all for some rocket science though lol.

 

[Resident_UA]

I think this thread is really weird. People are acting as if this list of judges is some sort of "gold standard". It's just a shitty popularity contest. More popular journalist who are friends with Geoff get put on that list. And you know what? Almost all of them are male. Sure it sucks and it would be great to have more women in the industry, but the Game Awards show is the weirdest place to point out this difference. Why not ask what % of journalists are women, what % of developers, what % of gamers? "What % of judges on a random awards show?" is very specific question to have.

 

[Brazil]

I think you are over-reading what people are saying. A systemic problem is being pointed out in this thread and the intent is to talk about how to do better (but mostly detractors are spouting sexist bullshit). That's all there is to it. Saying no one is to blame just make people sit on their hands and the status quo continues.

Something needs to be done. Someone needs to do something. Everyone involved in the decisionmaking process need to realize this and do something. This apathetic status quo bullshit just perpetuates the same systematic white dude magic we see again and again.

I've skimmed through most of the thread and saw multiple people saying stuff like "Geoff, that's disgusting" and "I'll take no part of this show".

That doesn't help, and it's actually unfair.

We have to change this, though. Where I work, we're in a team of 5 men, with 3 other men acting as kind of free lancers. We had just a single woman in our team until a couple of months ago, when she was moved to another team inside the company.

And this unbalance is clearly bullshit.