Dragon Ball Super |OT| 28 Episodes Later

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When it showed the flashback of Freiza killing Krillin, I half expected the Krillin owned count to pop up. Hard to keep in mind what's the actual thing and what's parody when you watch the official release and Abridged side by side, lol.
 
INST said:
Gohan, Jesus Christ. Just stop it Toriyama, it feels like he is doing it on purpose to hurt us Gohan fans. (unless it was different in the manga). First of all, how could such a blast just go right through him? Shouldn't his body be able just to shrug it off like nothing at this point?
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Tagoma at this point is as strong as Gohan according to the words in the episode preview. He's actually shown beating up everybody (including Gohan) in a direct battle and also easily ripping off Piccolo's arm.

"Letting down" his guard is how Goku was snipped by a weakened Piccolo in the 23rd Budokai after previously tanking his strongest attack or Vegeta got his tail cut by Yajirobi while being more than a hundred times stronger than him.
 
When was the last time Krillin was in a serious fight that he won, the saibamen? Dude's been on a losing streak for over a decade, and the entire reason he got serious about fighting was to deal with his massive inferiority complex.

Kagari said:
Now they just seem to be around for comedy relief.
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Business as usual for them, then.
 
What's the problemm with with people getting caught of guard by weaker opponents? It makes the series a bit boring if stuff like that or personalities and special techniques don't have any impact just because someone is 'stronger'
 
The Gohan stuff makes perfect sense. He was in control before Tagoma did his thing. It's not like he was struggling.

Krillin being scared isn't that weird either. He thought he had retired from fighting for good. It could also be all the bad memories from Namek affecting him.
 
Really appreciate all the answers. I''ll go with Krillins trauma, him having a family etc. For me personally it was not needed, just because the difference in power levels is so huge and what he already experienced (as shown later on). Certainly did not need him to actually cry, Gohan crying in the Saiyan saga was real. I bought into that, this...not so much. Ohh well. I'll go with it.

But Tagoma is just as strong as Gohan now? The fuck...that I refuse to buy. How, just...I know it is Dragonball and powerups and whatnot have always been bullshit, but this must be the worst one I've seen in the entire series.

And can someone explain the letting your guard down thing? Still don't get that, isn't their skin/body incredibly tough at this point that you'll need a pretty powerfull blast like the Kamehameha to pierce through it? How is this guard up/down? Is it like armor from their energy they concentrate around their body to protect themselves? So when Goku/Gohan let their guard down they don't do that? That is just dumb, and even if they did. Like I said, their bodies are out of this world strong. You need more than a simple ki blast for Gohan or an energy gun for Goku to take them out so easily...
 
Krillin went flying at Perfect Cell so I don't know why he's crying in front of Frieza. Should've thrown a Destructo Disk at him, then Frieza would be the one crying.
 
Wait. So is Mystic Gohan still a thing or what lol. So confused by the power levels nowadays. Is Master Roshi swole like that damn
 
INST said:
Really appreciate all the answers. I''ll go with Krillins trauma, him having a family etc. For me personally it was not needed, just because the difference in power levels is so huge and what he already experienced (as shown later on). Certainly did not need him to actually cry, Gohan crying in the Saiyan saga was real. I bought into that, this...not so much. Ohh well. I'll go with it.

But Tagoma is just as strong as Gohan now? The fuck...that I refuse to buy. How, just...I know it is Dragonball and powerups and whatnot have always been bullshit, but this must be the worst one I've seen in the entire series.

And can someone explain the letting your guard down thing? Still don't get that, isn't their skin/body incredibly tough at this point that you'll need a pretty powerfull blast like the Kamehameha to pierce through it? How is this guard up/down? Is it like armor from their energy they concentrate around their body to protect themselves? So when Goku/Gohan let their guard down they don't do that? That is just dumb, and even if they did. Like I said, their bodies are out of this world strong. You need more than a simple ki blast for Gohan or an energy gun for Goku to take them out so easily...
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For the last 4 months Tagoma has been beaten to near death and then regenerated so it could happen again the next day, every day. That's how he got so strong.

As for the off guard thing Goku was off guard in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai and had his body pierced by a shot from Piccolo, Vegeta was off guard and had his tail cut off by Yajirobe and Majin Vegeta was able to knock an off guard SSJ2 Goku out cold with one hit. Being off guard has always worked this way in Dragon Ball. They withstand powerful attacks by concentrating their power.
 
Art and animation are weak at points (though that's nothing new for Super) but overall I thought this was a great episode. Much better than the movie version. I could appreciate Krillin's self doubt and Gohan was treated MUCH better here. Not enough of Jaco actually showing he can fight in this version though which is a shame. I was a big fan of the lack of the super shitty CGI that was such an eyesore in the movie (though there was still a lot of copy & paste for the crowd). It's a shame Tagoma basically "dies" next episode. I'd rather see more of him than Ginyu, I got my fill of Ginyu during the Namek arc.
 
Kyzer said:
Wait. So is Mystic Gohan still a thing or what lol. So confused by the power levels nowadays. Is Master Roshi swole like that damn
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I don't even know.

'Mystic' Gohan is just base Gohan. It's just the Elder-Kai removing the need to transform to unleash his potential. He could access all of his power with suffering a power-drain. Logically, his fighting technique should decrease but his power-out should relatively remain the same. Apparently not though.
 
People are expecting Krillin to be strong based on shit that happened 10 years ago while completely ignoring that within this one season of dbs its explained that he has long since given up on fighting in general for a life of peace and became a family man.

Ultra Numb said:
I don't even know.

'Mystic' Gohan is just base Gohan. It's just the Elder-Kai removing the need to transform to unleash his potential. He could access all of his power with suffering a power-drain. Logically, his fighting technique should decrease but his power-out should relatively remain the same. Apparently not though.
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Yeah looks like hes gonna go super saiyan. And here I was excited for Toriyama to be more consistent than GT :/
 
Kyzer said:
Wait. So is Mystic Gohan still a thing or what lol. So confused by the power levels nowadays. Is Master Roshi swole like that damn
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I'm under the impression he lost the power due to not keeping up with his training. He can probably get it back if he wants to and puts time into it.
 
INST said:
And can someone explain the letting your guard down thing? Still don't get that, isn't their skin/body incredibly tough at this point that you'll need a pretty powerfull blast like the Kamehameha to pierce through it? How is this guard up/down? Is it like armor from their energy they concentrate around their body to protect themselves? So when Goku/Gohan let their guard down they don't do that? That is just dumb, and even if they did. Like I said, their bodies are out of this world strong. You need more than a simple ki blast for Gohan or an energy gun for Goku to take them out so easily...
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These characters have gone down with a single neck chop from behind, so yeah.
 
INST said:
Really appreciate all the answers. I''ll go with Krillins trauma, him having a family etc. For me personally it was not needed, just because the difference in power levels is so huge and what he already experienced (as shown later on). Certainly did not need him to actually cry, Gohan crying in the Saiyan saga was real. I bought into that, this...not so much. Ohh well. I'll go with it.

But Tagoma is just as strong as Gohan now? The fuck...that I refuse to buy. How, just...I know it is Dragonball and powerups and whatnot have always been bullshit, but this must be the worst one I've seen in the entire series.

And can someone explain the letting your guard down thing? Still don't get that, isn't their skin/body incredibly tough at this point that you'll need a pretty powerfull blast like the Kamehameha to pierce through it? How is this guard up/down? Is it like armor from their energy they concentrate around their body to protect themselves? So when Goku/Gohan let their guard down they don't do that? That is just dumb, and even if they did. Like I said, their bodies are out of this world strong. You need more than a simple ki blast for Gohan or an energy gun for Goku to take them out so easily...
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You do know their strong bodies are a case of ki control? It's how Goku blocked all of Trunks' sword slicing with just his index finger. Yes, Goku has an inherently tough body. However, for his finger to stay straight and solid against all of those blows, it was reinforced with ki. Ki usage is what separates someone like Mr. Satan, bound by human limits, from say Tenshinhan.
 
Sibersk Esto said:
These characters have gone down with a single neck chop from behind, so yeah.
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Yeah, I guess. It's just parts like that I just don't buy. Vegeta was slapping the shit out of Goku during the Buu saga, then suddenly while getting a senzu bean he is able to knock him out just because guard down? Uhh. Dunno, just annoys me.

ArchedThunder said:
For the last 4 months Tagoma has been beaten to near death and then regenerated so it could happen again the next day, every day. That's how he got so strong.

As for the off guard thing Goku was off guard in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai and had his body pierced by a shot from Piccolo, Vegeta was off guard and had his tail cut off by Yajirobe and Majin Vegeta was able to knock an off guard SSJ2 Goku out cold with one hit. Being off guard has always worked this way in Dragon Ball. They withstand powerful attacks by concentrating their power.
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Yeah that part I got, but some Freeza goon is able to become stronger than the legendary Majin Buu/SSJ3 Goku/Mystic Gohan just by 'training' for 4 months? Freeza okay, but come on....I'd rather have Gohan just gut punched by Freeza than this shit. It's just so stupid.

As for the bolded part, sure. Why not, makes some sense I guess. Why the hell they would lower it when they did is beyond me but ohh well. All of this is also just the writers/Toriyama's choice so yeah.
 
INST said:
Yeah that part I got, but some Freeza goon is able to become stronger than the legendary Majin Buu/SSJ3 Goku/Mystic Gohan just by 'training' for 4 months? Freeza okay, but come on....I'd rather have Gohan just gut punched by Freeza than this shit. It's just so stupid.
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Dragon Ball is a series where a 4 year old went from being a normal 4 year old unless he was mad (he even had a power level reading of 1 at one point, but to be fair that was after he had just attacked, I still doubt his base power level was much higher than that.) to having a base power level of 981 in just one year. That's stronger than his father was before he died and trained with Kaio. Gohan got much stronger than Goku did over the entirety of the original Dragon Ball in just one year, and at a much younger age.
Ridiculous strength increases are the name of the game in Dragon Ball.

Tagoma is a powerful alien, a powerful alien who just underwent a kind of training no one else ever has. Welcome to Dragon Ball.
INST said:
As for the bolded part, sure. Why not, makes some sense I guess. Why the hell they would lower it when they did is beyond me but ohh well. All of this is also just the writers/Toriyama's choice so yeah.
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Gohan wasn't having any trouble fighting Freeza's army, and he was getting bear hugged by some big dude and it was doing nothing, Gohan was cocky and didn't think he needed to keep his guard up and then he was blind sided.
 
INST said:
And can someone explain the letting your guard down thing? Still don't get that, isn't their skin/body incredibly tough at this point that you'll need a pretty powerfull blast like the Kamehameha to pierce through it? How is this guard up/down? Is it like armor from their energy they concentrate around their body to protect themselves? So when Goku/Gohan let their guard down they don't do that? That is just dumb, and even if they did. Like I said, their bodies are out of this world strong. You need more than a simple ki blast for Gohan or an energy gun for Goku to take them out so easily...
Click to expand...

Yes, it's not their skin that's incredibly though, it's the ki that protects them from attacks (although the aliens might have some boosted defense too, like Kid Goku just getting a light wound from a gun shot, that's not their main defense at all at this point). That's why in the Freeza Saga, when Vegeta lowered his power level Kuririn could blast a hole through him.

And, yes, it means they relaxed and didn't focus on their defense. I agree that it's a pretty weird scene in Gohan's case though, considering how Shisami had just attempted to crush him and was still holding him.
 
ArchedThunder said:
Dragon Ball is a series where a 4 year old went from being a normal 4 year old unless he was mad (he even had a power level reading of 1 at one point, but to be fair that was after he had just attacked, I still doubt his base power level was much higher than that.) to having a base power level of 981 in just one year. That's stronger than his father was before he died and trained with Kaio. Gohan got much stronger than Goku did over the entirety of the original Dragon Ball in just one year, and at a much younger age.
Ridiculous strength increases are the name of the game in Dragon Ball.

Tagoma is a powerful alien, a powerful alien who just underwent a kind of training no one else ever has. Welcome to Dragon Ball.

Gohan wasn't having any trouble fighting Freeza's army, and he was getting bear hugged by some big dude and it was doing nothing, Gohan was cocky and didn't think he needed to keep his guard up and then he was blind sided.
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Yeah I guess, as a kid I loved it: omg Goku is so strong now because of King Kai! He can take Vegeta and Nappa! Even more so with Gohan becoming the strongest during the Cell saga. Don't know why this one bothers me so much, maybe because I'm just a fan of Gohan and secretly keep hoping he'll make a comeback and don't want him to be beaten by some alien we just met. Or maybe because I'm older now (tho DBZ powerups still don't bother me were I to watch it again).

Was it ever explained Tagoma has also this potential or something like that? Was he already really powerful? Because no matter what, that is some powerboost. He couldn't be stronger than OG Freeza right?

NeonZ said:
Yes, it's not their skin that's incredibly though, it's the ki that protects them from attacks (although the aliens might have some boosted defense too, like Kid Goku just getting a light wound from a gun shot, that's not their main defense at all at this point). That's why in the Freeza Saga, when Vegeta lowered his power level Kuririn could blast a hole through him.

And, yes, it means they relaxed and didn't focus on their defense. I agree that it's a pretty weird scene in Gohan's case though, considering how Shisami had just attempted to crush him and was still holding him.
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Got it, thanks. I never got the lowering your guard, so that's it. Makes sense. Him lowering it at that point was dumb tho, he really is Goku's son. Without the will to train. Damnit.
 
NeonZ said:
And, yes, it means they relaxed and didn't focus on their defense. I agree that it's a pretty weird scene in Gohan's case though, considering how Shisami had just attempted to crush him and was still holding him.
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He didn't seem phased by it all though.
 
ArchedThunder said:
I hope that instead of Gohan getting one shotted by Freeza that Freeza takes Gotenks out and they defuse and he gets really confused as to why "Goku" and Trunks are tiny now.
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That'd be awesome to see that. But before that, I do actually want some SSJ3 and Gotenks love. Gotenks is a solid fighter and needs to be considered top tier minus the God powered fighters. Its hard to say where first form Frieza stands. As strong as Majin Buu or a SSJ3? I'm not so sure.
 
Kyzer said:
People are expecting Krillin to be strong based on shit that happened 10 years ago while completely ignoring that within this one season of dbs its explained that he has long since given up on fighting in general for a life of peace and became a family man.



Yeah looks like hes gonna go super saiyan. And here I was excited for Toriyama to be more consistent than GT :/
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The Daizenshuu's state Gohan is capable of transforming into a SS, even after the potential unlock from Elder kai IIRC. We discussed it in this thread several pages back.
 
Kagari said:
He didn't seem phased by it all though.
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His face had kind of a "Is this all you can do?" look on it.

shadowsdarknes said:
That'd be awesome to see that. But before that, I do actually want some SSJ3 and Gotenks love. Gotenks is a solid fighter and needs to be considered top tier minus the God powered fighters. Its hard to say where first form Frieza stands. As strong as Majin Buu or a SSJ3? I'm not so sure.
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True, it'd also be fun to see Freeza's reaction to how SSJ3 looks.
 
Only Roshi, someone who hasn't been combat relevant since Dragon Ball, had the sense that they can easily take all of Frieza's soldiers on with no issue. Krillin who was in a rush to stop the enemies basically freezes in place once he gets there requiring Tien to save him
Who has never even experienced Frieza's evil
. I did like how Big Red was weaker than in the movie as it just seems strange that someone with zero build up or back story can destroy people stronger than Dabura. Which leads me to tagoma power increase. He gets one shot pitifully to a level 1, freshly revived, Frieza. He had to have been weaker than Ginyu at that point, so training with Frieza for four months then becoming stronger than Kid Buu (In the preview he is taking all of the Z fighters at once) really irks me. Outside of those issues, I am glad Goten and Trunks are coming to battle which would be funny to see Frieza's reaction. It was also an interesting note by Whis that he isn't really doing anything to train them anymore and all they are doing is fighting each other. Maybe Whis will decide to stop training them and move on to Piccolo for the tournament?

I dont have a problem with them getting injured by weaker people just because they let their guard down since it has been a common and consistent theme throughout the whole Dragon Ball franchise.
 
Super is getting into its groove.

After the horrendous, drawn out, filler-to-the-max Beerus fight, the show has been steadily growing in terms of pacing and confidence in expanding its own material on top of the source films.

Look, its obvious that the films were chosen to be rehashed because the show was greenlit at the last possible second and the production needed the extra 6 to 8 months to build necessary storyarcs going forward.

We can essentially look at these first 6 to 7 months of the show as filler, but not really at the same time.

When the actual show starts, they will have approximately the same amount of Manga buffer time as the original show did. They also will have 6 months experience if production under their belts, as well as an established time slot.

Best case scenario imo.
 
ArchedThunder said:
For the last 4 months Tagoma has been beaten to near death and then regenerated so it could happen again the next day, every day. That's how he got so strong.

As for the off guard thing Goku was off guard in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai and had his body pierced by a shot from Piccolo, Vegeta was off guard and had his tail cut off by Yajirobe and Majin Vegeta was able to knock an off guard SSJ2 Goku out cold with one hit. Being off guard has always worked this way in Dragon Ball. They withstand powerful attacks by concentrating their power.
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That explanation actually would work well if Tagoma was a Saiyan.
 
OldAsUrSock said:
Only Roshi, someone who hasn't been combat relevant since Dragon Ball, had the sense that they can easily take all of Frieza's soldiers on with no issue. Krillin who was in a rush to stop the enemies basically freezes in place once he gets there requiring Tien to save him
Who has never even experienced Frieza's evil
. I did like how Big Red was weaker than in the movie as it just seems strange that someone with zero build up or back story can destroy people stronger than Dabura. Which leads me to tagoma power increase. He gets one shot pitifully to a level 1, freshly revived, Frieza. He had to have been weaker than Ginyu at that point, so training with Frieza for four months then becoming stronger than Kid Buu (In the preview he is taking all of the Z fighters at once) really irks me. Outside of those issues, I am glad Goten and Trunks are coming to battle which would be funny to see Frieza's reaction. It was also an interesting note by Whis that he isn't really doing anything to train them anymore and all they are doing is fighting each other. Maybe Whis will decide to stop training them and move on to Piccolo for the tournament?

I dont have a problem with them getting injured by weaker people just because they let their guard down since it has been a common and consistent theme throughout the whole Dragon Ball franchise.
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PTSD is one hell of a force. I mean seriously, he hasn't had a shining moment or victory in ages and him being paralyzed by fear is something that has happened before (because of 17 and 18) and has long been retired from martial arts, I don't see what's wrong with him having a mini freakout.
As I said before, crazy power boost are the norm for the franchise, and Tagoma just underwent 4 months of training that was unlike anything any of the main cast has done. Maybe he was also a bit of a prodigy and didn't even know it, or maybe he race has great potential. I don't really see why the power boost is so weird.

Sub Boss said:
That explanation actually would work well if Tagoma was a Saiyan.
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Everyone grows stronger from being beaten, and how do you know Tagoma's race doesn't have a similar boost to saiyans? We don't know anything about his race.
 
The question is how strong Tagoma really is, no surprised he could beat Gohan as he was just getting stronger and was overconfident at that moment, Tagoma even says it, but could he beat Piccolo who is supposed to be around Cell level? and Gohan could become angry again and trash him, after all he was alive to eat the senzu bean and get a power boost.

And then Ginyu takes his body, does he become weaker or stronger with this? Maybe Ginyu learned to controñ the bodies of others after getting beaten by Vegeta on Namek.

And then Gotenks...;P
 
Was this last episode for real? Tagoma, a dude with the fighting prowess comparable to the Ginyu Force has risen above Mystic Gohan in terms of fighting ability within 4 months of training. GTFO with that mess man! They've got to stop comparing these baddies to old school baddies because it's a horrible look for them and it's absolutely killing me. Is Tagoma a mutant who harbors unrivaled potential too like Frieza? It's getting out of hand and makes it seem as if Goku and Vegeta have been training the entirely wrong way up until now considering they're comparatively slow progress.

Also I guess Vegeta is essentially confirmed to be stronger than Goku. Oh well, that sucks, hopefully my man Goku reclaims his throne and puts Vegeta back in his place (2nd/maybe 3rd when Gohan seriously trains)!
 
OldAsUrSock said:
Only Roshi, someone who hasn't been combat relevant since Dragon Ball, had the sense that they can easily take all of Frieza's soldiers on with no issue. Krillin who was in a rush to stop the enemies basically freezes in place once he gets there requiring Tien to save him
Who has never even experienced Frieza's evil
. I did like how Big Red was weaker than in the movie as it just seems strange that someone with zero build up or back story can destroy people stronger than Dabura. Which leads me to tagoma power increase. He gets one shot pitifully to a level 1, freshly revived, Frieza. He had to have been weaker than Ginyu at that point, so training with Frieza for four months then becoming stronger than Kid Buu (In the preview he is taking all of the Z fighters at once) really irks me. Outside of those issues, I am glad Goten and Trunks are coming to battle which would be funny to see Frieza's reaction. It was also an interesting note by Whis that he isn't really doing anything to train them anymore and all they are doing is fighting each other. Maybe Whis will decide to stop training them and move on to Piccolo for the tournament?

I dont have a problem with them getting injured by weaker people just because they let their guard down since it has been a common and consistent theme throughout the whole Dragon Ball franchise.
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Kid Buu? Who in the group of Z fighters is anywhere near that level at this point? (that were shown fighting Togama). Gohan was the only one above that and he stopped training.
 
OldAsUrSock said:
Only Roshi, someone who hasn't been combat relevant since Dragon Ball, had the sense that they can easily take all of Frieza's soldiers on with no issue. Krillin who was in a rush to stop the enemies basically freezes in place once he gets there requiring Tien to save him
Who has never even experienced Frieza's evil
. I did like how Big Red was weaker than in the movie as it just seems strange that someone with zero build up or back story can destroy people stronger than Dabura. Which leads me to tagoma power increase. He gets one shot pitifully to a level 1, freshly revived, Frieza. He had to have been weaker than Ginyu at that point, so training with Frieza for four months then becoming stronger than Kid Buu (In the preview he is taking all of the Z fighters at once) really irks me. Outside of those issues, I am glad Goten and Trunks are coming to battle which would be funny to see Frieza's reaction. It was also an interesting note by Whis that he isn't really doing anything to train them anymore and all they are doing is fighting each other. Maybe Whis will decide to stop training them and move on to Piccolo for the tournament?

I dont have a problem with them getting injured by weaker people just because they let their guard down since it has been a common and consistent theme throughout the whole Dragon Ball franchise.
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What makes you think Tagoma is stronger than Kid Buu?
 
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