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[Deleted member 1159]

I believe that Sith are a specific order, much like the Jedi are. There is training involved, rituals, and legacy. If Supreme Leader Snorke is not a Sith, and has never had any Sith training, then he is simply manipulating Kylo Ren into being a bad force user. It seems like the "dark side" stuff Ren does is mostly self-indoctrination from his obsession with Vader. It'll be interesting to see where this goes in the sequels.

Snoke does say he's going to complete Ren's training though. Not specifically Sith training, but it sounds like he's got some sort of structure.

 

[Kieli]

Yep I loved that little tidbit.

It showed how he wanted to be a tough dark side bad ass, but still was green and a newbie on the inside.

I actually really liked his characterization. You hit the head on the wanna-be part. But he's really still a kid throwing temper tantrums.

It'll be interesting to see the evolution of his character over the next 2 movies.

 

[TheSlySoul]

It is funny when Kylo revealed himself, all I could think about was Harry Styles from One Direction. Was expecting him to break out in song. Hopefully if the actor returns, he gets a better haircut.

Edit: Also Sith is an order who believes in the dark side. The dark side now is like a belief.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

Finn won't be involved, but I do think Rey will end up on the dark side.

She is likely Luke's daughter, and is thus incredibly powerful. After training with Luke, she'll start to become more cognizant of her incredible abilities. The thing is, though, she has what Kylo doesn't - conviction. She's passionate and strong, as she displayed throughout TFA. And in the final battle with Kylo, after she meditates, she menacingly comes out swinging in fury at Kylo, and after knocking him down repeatedly, she hovers over him with a face filled with rage. It was very much like a Sith.

Kylo, on the other hand, was tormented and conflicted throughout the entire film. Killing his father, I predict, will finally ruin him. He won't be able to persevere knowing what he has done, and he will seek out Leia for comfort and familial support and profess to never use the force again.

Unitl, of course, he finds out that Snoke has gone after Rey and succeeded in converting her. Kylo will then seek out his uncle, make amends, and they will both set out to save the girl that has become the most powerful member of the Skywalker family.

Just like a Skywalker. Honestly of Rey isn't a Skywalker I will be a bit disappointed.

 

[Chamber]

Finn won't be involved, but I do think Rey will end up on the dark side.

Uh, that's not the dark side he's referring to.

 

[Sylas]

I know JJ made the point of saying Kylo isn't a Sith, but I don't recall if the word "Sith" is ever uttered in TFA.

I also don't know how one becomes classified as a Sith. Is there an application process? Do you need to be approved? Does it come with tenure? Are the Lords of the Sith an equal opportunity employer? Why are they limiting themselves to two employees, is it to avoid some galactic employment regulations?

While I know this post is mostly joking, I'm gonna answer it seriously anyway! NYEH.

Sith have a very specific set of teachings and ideals. They're the other side of the Jedi coin, basically. You can be a Dark Side user and not be a Sith, just like you can be a Light Side user and not be a Jedi.

As for the two thing--it was basically thought that allowing only two individuals to channel the knowledge of the Sith they'd be stronger for it. More concentrated badness, basically. It's like using the same amount of kool-aid powder but only making 2 cups instead of a pitcher.

 

[Tookay]

yup, star wars is a million times better if you pretend they don't exist or they happened in some other way.

I'm fine with them being ignored forever. Hell, I'd love it if someone redid them entirely, saying the lucas ones weren't canon.

Best case is we never go back, though.

This is some vindictive ass shit.

They're a part of SW. They made integral changes and additions to the universe. Handwaving them away isn't going to solve anything.

And fetishizing the OT isn't helping either.

 

[Blizzard]

Man, talking to some of my black friends about this movie is like stepping into a minefield.

Finn is still an elephant in the room. Many of them straight up pissed off, and it totally destroys their liking of the movie.

Personally, I really liked Finn, and thought he helped carry numerous parts along with his overall charisma and heart. But the incompetency, in conjunction with the sanitation reveal (never mind the not Jedi stuff) is a huge point of anger.

One of my friends is a black woman who liked it for both Finn AND Rey, so I guess mileage varies. Are your friends who disliked it women?

Finn won't be involved, but I do think Rey will end up on the dark side.

She is likely Luke's daughter, and is thus incredibly powerful. After training with Luke, she'll start to become more cognizant of her incredible abilities. The thing is, though, she has what Kylo doesn't - conviction. She's passionate and strong, as she displayed throughout TFA. And in the final battle with Kylo, after she meditates, she menacingly comes out swinging in fury at Kylo, and after knocking him down repeatedly, she hovers over him with a face filled with rage. It was very much like a Sith.

Kylo, on the other hand, was tormented and conflicted throughout the entire film. Killing his father, I predict, will finally ruin him. He won't be able to persevere knowing what he has done, and he will seek out Leia for comfort and familial support and profess to never use the force again.

Unitl, of course, he finds out that Snoke has gone after Rey and succeeded in converting her. Kylo will then seek out his uncle, make amends, and they will both set out to save the girl that has become the most powerful member of the Skywalker family.

The problem with this for me is that Kylo murdered one of the favorite Star Wars characters ever, right to his face, AND is very unlikable. Sure Darth Vader "turned" back, but it was his last action ever before dying. If they turn my absolute favorite character from the new movie evil, and the obnoxious dad-murderer good, that would make me quite sad.

Rey could be TEMPTED by the dark side, sure, Luke-style.

 

[JeffZero]

Okay, the more I'm thinking about this "Maybe she's a Kenobi" thing, the more I'm seeing possibilities for it happening. Not that I think it'll happen (it's probably a lot more narratively simple/cleaner to just have her be Luke's daughter, if only so that the final confrontation is Luke's daughter vs. Leia's son) but...

1) We know that the production had been, at one point, looking for someone to specifically play a Kenobi relation. At the time, that news was attached to casting rumors around Lupita Nyong'o, but considering people also thought she'd be playing a sith or something back then, I think it's possible the Kenobi-relation tidbit was misinterpreted the wrong way and attached to the wrong actress. But that's kind of a leap, I know.

2) That RHYMING POETRY bullshit that we ALL LOVE SOOOOO MUCH in Star Wars could be applied here pretty easily, honestly. If she's a Kenobi Granddaughter somehow/someway (man, wouldn't it be nice if this was some part of a spinoff story about ol' Ben on Tattooine), then you have a scenario wherein Luke takes in Ben's offspring, watches over her, basically adopts her as his own and then has to stash her on a backwater planet while he goes into exile, to keep her safe from the imminent threat that is his failed apprentice. Which would sorta kinda explain

3) his look at the end of the movie, where he seems uncomprehending, unsure, and not entirely happy. More bittersweet than anything. Because he's seen this before. It's looping back in on him. Whether she wanted it or not, his failed apprentice has affected her life, and just like Anakin's saber started him on his journey to becoming a Jedi, here she is, holding the same saber, wordlessly asking him to do the same for her, so she can do the same thing he set out to do all those years ago.

It's like poetry.

It rhymes.

I dig it.

 

[Jellycrackers]

None of that actually happened though (unless I'm having a huge mind blank). It was just alluded to. The way it was handled though gave zero weight to his choice in the first place. There was no "Oh Finn I'm so glad you chose to stay.", or even any acknowledgment of him coming back at all.

It was just....poof Finn's back.

I don't know what you mean by "None of that actually happened"... When everyone came outside and looked up to see Starkiller base being fired, you could see that Finn was in the process of boarding that ship, but they stopped to look up and watch the fireworks.

Finn never actually really left. He was just about to, but then things went sideways and he ended up being stuck there fighting the First Order forces that arrived. Once Finn saw Rey get taken, he decided to stay so he could help get her back. Next time they saw each other was when Rey hugged him for coming to rescue her.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Uh, that's not the dark side he's referring to.

I know this is a spoiler thread, but let him figure it out.

 

[Blader]

I pretty much hate the PT, but I think the concepts, lore and imagery are pretty strong. It's just the execution of the films that sucks. So I kind of wish he hadn't ignored them so completely. There was ZERO reference to anything from them.

Why would there be any reference to them? They're much further removed.

The world of VII is informed by the events of IV, V and VI.

 

[Neoweee]

I believe that Sith are a specific order, much like the Jedi are. There is training involved, rituals, and legacy. If Supreme Leader Snorke is not a Sith, and has never had any Sith training, then he is simply manipulating Kylo Ren into being a bad force user. It seems like the "dark side" stuff Ren does is mostly self-indoctrination from his obsession with Vader. It'll be interesting to see where this goes in the sequels.

If he is Plageuis, he may not want to have a proper apprentice or Sith order after his last apprentice tried to murder him.

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

One of my friends is a black woman who liked it for both Finn AND Rey, so I guess mileage varies. Were your friends who disliked it women?

Haven't talked to any of my black female friends. That would be quite a test.

 

[Randdalf]

I found it interesting how Kylo Ren was conflicted about not being dark enough, was killing his father the tipping point?

 

[Tesseract]

guys, what if incest

what if

https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video/CWUKbS1XAAAwxCQ.mp4

 

[TangoAlphaLima]

I believe that Sith are a specific order, much like the Jedi are. There is training involved, rituals, and legacy. If Supreme Leader Snorke is not a Sith, and has never had any Sith training, then he is simply manipulating Kylo Ren into being a bad force user. It seems like the "dark side" stuff Ren does is mostly self-indoctrination from his obsession with Vader. It'll be interesting to see where this goes in the sequels.

They definitely need to make some kind of distinction to explain why Snoke and any cohorts aren't Sith. I'm guessing they will too, given that JJ made the "Kylo is not a Sith" statement. There's no point in making that assertion if there's zero relevance to it, or to make the decision that Kylo is not a Sith if it doesn't actually matter.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

I can imagine at the end of Episode IX Rey and Ben (again called such) take on Snoke and the Knights of Ren in a final battle.

 

[El Topo]

If he is Plageuis, he may not want to have a proper apprentice or Sith order after his last apprentice tried to murder him.

Well, maybe he finally lived up to his name.

 

[duckroll]

Snoke does say he's going to complete Ren's training though. Not specifically Sith training, but it sounds like he's got some sort of structure.

Yes, there is clearly training involved, as in how to use a lightsaber, how to use his powers, etc. But keep in mind these are things anyone with enough knowledge of how the force -works- can also "teach". Just like.... how Moz taught Rey about the basics of how to harness the force. That doesn't make her a Jedi. When she trains under Luke though, that will. So the question is really who and what Snoke is, and what his aims are.

 

[Sephzilla]

Okay, the more I'm thinking about this "Maybe she's a Kenobi" thing, the more I'm seeing possibilities for it happening. Not that I think it'll happen (it's probably a lot more narratively simple/cleaner to just have her be Luke's daughter, if only so that the final confrontation is Luke's daughter vs. Leia's son) but...

1) We know that the production had been, at one point, looking for someone to specifically play a Kenobi relation. At the time, that news was attached to casting rumors around Lupita Nyong'o, but considering people also thought she'd be playing a sith or something back then, I think it's possible the Kenobi-relation tidbit was misinterpreted the wrong way and attached to the wrong actress. But that's kind of a leap, I know.

2) That RHYMING POETRY bullshit that we ALL LOVE SOOOOO MUCH in Star Wars could be applied here pretty easily, honestly. If she's a Kenobi Granddaughter somehow/someway (man, wouldn't it be nice if this was some part of a spinoff story about ol' Ben on Tattooine), then you have a scenario wherein Luke takes in Ben's offspring, watches over her, basically adopts her as his own and then has to stash her on a backwater planet while he goes into exile, to keep her safe from the imminent threat that is his failed apprentice. Which would sorta kinda explain

3) his look at the end of the movie, where he seems uncomprehending, unsure, and not entirely happy. More bittersweet than anything. Because he's seen this before. It's looping back in on him. Whether she wanted it or not, his failed apprentice has affected her life, and just like Anakin's saber started him on his journey to becoming a Jedi, here she is, holding the same saber, wordlessly asking him to do the same for her, so she can do the same thing he set out to do all those years ago.

It's like poetry.

It rhymes.

 

[rrc1594]

I hope she isn't a Kenobi

 

[3N16MA]

It is funny when Kylo revealed himself, all I could think about was Harry Styles from One Direction. Was expecting him to break out in song. Hopefully if the actor returns, he gets a better haircut.

Edit: Also Sith is an order who believes in the dark side. The dark side now is like a belief.

Kylo has glorious hair.

 

[damidu]

Man, talking to some of my black friends about this movie is like stepping into a minefield.

Finn is still an elephant in the room. Many of them straight up pissed off, and it totally destroys their liking of the movie.

Personally, I really liked Finn, and thought he helped carry numerous parts along with his overall charisma and heart. But the incompetency, in conjunction with the sanitation reveal (never mind the not Jedi stuff) is a huge point of anger.

i also felt like he was insta-friendzoned by rey.
some sexual tension between them would work better i think.

 

[Liquidsnake]

I dunno if I really care that much to stick around in the spoiler thread talking about plot points in the movie because most of it is so obvious in intent that there really isn't much analysis required, but I will say that I loved the characterization of Kylo Ren. It's the one clever thing in the entire movie which is otherwise just ANH for the current generation with more diversity and gender equality. Taking a Darth Vader stand in character and making him a try-hard young punk who WANTS to be a Darth Vader stand in instead worked great. The casting was amazing too. He reminded me so much of a young Snape from Harry Potter. He would have been a great Anakin in the PT.

I don't think him losing at the end was particularly weird either, because they did a good job of showing that he wasn't really a great Sith warrior like Vader was throughout the film. Every time anything went wrong, he would lose his cool and just rage out and everyone around him would be rolling their eyes. He has no real respect from the First Order, and they just tolerate him because of his force affinity and because he's Snorke's disciple. So it comes as no surprise that when push comes to shove and he has to actually fight another force user, he just chokes hard.

I haven't seen it yet, I have to wait till tomorrow night, but everything you wrote makes me so excited..

 

[Seventy_X_Seven]

I pretty much hate the PT, but I think the concepts, lore and imagery are pretty strong. It's just the execution of the films that sucks. So I kind of wish he hadn't ignored them so completely. There was ZERO reference to anything from them.

References to prequels:

Kylo suggesting using a clone army instead. Just a reminder that those exist.

Kylo himself being very PT Anakin like. From his tantrums to his hair resembling RotS Anakin.

Kylo and Rey's duel where they lock arms exactly like this:

Kaz's place having all the pod racer flags.

Perhaps missing some others. As much as some people love to hate the prequels, I imagine the lack of references is moreso because it took place well over 50 years ago.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

Man, talking to some of my black friends about this movie is like stepping into a minefield.

Finn is still an elephant in the room. Many of them straight up pissed off, and it totally destroys their liking of the movie.

Personally, I really liked Finn, and thought he helped carry numerous parts along with his overall charisma and heart. But the incompetency, in conjunction with the sanitation reveal (never mind the not Jedi stuff) is a huge point of anger.

I think he will probably grow a lot as the movies progress.

I think they also made Rey a little too good at everything. It made Finn look worse in comparison.

I think that there will be a moment in the second movie where Rey gets knocked down a few pegs, because she was way too powerful by the end of the first movie.

 

[Briarios]

Man, talking to some of my black friends about this movie is like stepping into a minefield.

Finn is still an elephant in the room. Many of them straight up pissed off, and it totally destroys their liking of the movie.

Personally, I really liked Finn, and thought he helped carry numerous parts along with his overall charisma and heart. But the incompetency, in conjunction with the sanitation reveal (never mind the not Jedi stuff) is a huge point of anger.

I don't really get that. I mean, I'm a white guy, so I'm clearly coming from a different point of view, but I liked Finn a lot. Got his Infinity figure today. I mean, in terms of a military, the sanitation role makes perfect sense. You've brainwashed these kids, you're going to use their manpower until they're ready for the battlfield. And, while he sucked with the saber, he was a pretty damn good shot with a blaster. He got Poe out. He shot down one of the missles. He shot down two tie fighters on the Falcon. I mean, he's straight up big time action hero ... But, they gotta leave him some room for growth.

 

[TM94]

Just be Luke's daughter.

Please.

 

[Frog-fu]

Now I don't have to avoid spoiler comments I've been going over soem of press junkets and talk show interviews with the cast.

My man crush on John Boyega is growing stronger by the day. The dude is hilarious. His bit on Kimmel was gold.

 

[Blizzard]

guys, what if incest

what if

https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video/CWUKbS1XAAAwxCQ.mp4

I prefer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQDvsf5lAp0.

 

[Branduil]

I dunno if I really care that much to stick around in the spoiler thread talking about plot points in the movie because most of it is so obvious in intent that there really isn't much analysis required, but I will say that I loved the characterization of Kylo Ren. It's the one clever thing in the entire movie which is otherwise just ANH for the current generation with more diversity and gender equality. Taking a Darth Vader stand in character and making him a try-hard young punk who WANTS to be a Darth Vader stand in instead worked great. The casting was amazing too. He reminded me so much of a young Snape from Harry Potter. He would have been a great Anakin in the PT.

I don't think him losing at the end was particularly weird either, because they did a good job of showing that he wasn't really a great Sith warrior like Vader was throughout the film. Every time anything went wrong, he would lose his cool and just rage out and everyone around him would be rolling their eyes. He has no real respect from the First Order, and they just tolerate him because of his force affinity and because he's Snorke's disciple. So it comes as no surprise that when push comes to shove and he has to actually fight another force user, he just chokes hard.

Yeah, I love Ren. I think the next big Sith disciple being a Vader fanboy makes sense, too. Idolization and veneration of previous heroes is a real thing, and it would be especially so in a fascist civilization like The New Order.

Based on what he said to Han about being foolish and weak, I'm betting he was actually one of Luke's lamer disciples, and possibly mocked/ostracized by his peers. Snoke offered him real power and he took it.

 

[Dartastic]

Seriously though, Jacen should have been Kylo's real name. It really should have.

 

[Tesseract]

Just be Luke's daughter.

Please.

who's the mommy?

 

[Magwik]

Okay, the more I'm thinking about this "Maybe she's a Kenobi" thing, the more I'm seeing possibilities for it happening. Not that I think it'll happen (it's probably a lot more narratively simple/cleaner to just have her be Luke's daughter, if only so that the final confrontation is Luke's daughter vs. Leia's son) but...

1) We know that the production had been, at one point, looking for someone to specifically play a Kenobi relation. At the time, that news was attached to casting rumors around Lupita Nyong'o, but considering people also thought she'd be playing a sith or something back then, I think it's possible the Kenobi-relation tidbit was misinterpreted the wrong way and attached to the wrong actress. But that's kind of a leap, I know.

2) That RHYMING POETRY bullshit that we ALL LOVE SOOOOO MUCH in Star Wars could be applied here pretty easily, honestly. If she's a Kenobi Granddaughter somehow/someway (man, wouldn't it be nice if this was some part of a spinoff story about ol' Ben on Tattooine), then you have a scenario wherein Luke takes in Ben's offspring, watches over her, basically adopts her as his own and then has to stash her on a backwater planet while he goes into exile, to keep her safe from the imminent threat that is his failed apprentice. Which would sorta kinda explain

3) his look at the end of the movie, where he seems uncomprehending, unsure, and not entirely happy. More bittersweet than anything. Because he's seen this before. It's looping back in on him. Whether she wanted it or not, his failed apprentice has affected her life, and just like Anakin's saber started him on his journey to becoming a Jedi, here she is, holding the same saber, wordlessly asking him to do the same for her, so she can do the same thing he set out to do all those years ago.

It's like poetry.

It rhymes.

Didn't know I wanted this until I read it.

 

[HUELEN10]

What I like about Ben is how much of a whiny little piece of emo shit he is; he is JUST like Anakin in episodes 2-3 with a better actor.

He is just like grand dad, but more evil.

 

[Blunoise]

Does anyone have the Star Wars: Before the Awakening book yet? I can't find it

 

[Randdalf]

That part where he just straight up chokes the guy instead of force choking him though.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

References to prequels:

Kylo suggesting using a clone army instead. Just a reminder that those exist.

Kylo himself being very PT Anakin like. From his tantrums to his hair resembling RotS Anakin.

Kylo and Rey's duel where they lock arms exactly like this:


Kaz's place having ask the pod racer flags.

Perhaps missing some others. As much as some people love to hate the prequels, I imagine the lack of references is moreso because it took place well over 50 years ago.

Don't forget that the lightsaber Anakin uses in the prequels is a central part of the plot.

 

[Sectorseven]

For Rey to be Kenobi's descendant we'd have to be missing an entire generation of offspring. I could maybe accept it if she were his daughter, but presumably being a granddaughter feels too detached and far fetched at this point.

 

[ryan299]

This is funny. 50 rumors which weren't true. http://screencrush.com/star-wars-force-awakens-false-rumors/

 

[Sylas]

Man, talking to some of my black friends about this movie is like stepping into a minefield.

Finn is still an elephant in the room. Many of them straight up pissed off, and it totally destroys their liking of the movie.

Personally, I really liked Finn, and thought he helped carry numerous parts along with his overall charisma and heart. But the incompetency, in conjunction with the sanitation reveal (never mind the not Jedi stuff) is a huge point of anger.

Yo but Finn wasn't really incompetent at all. The worst that happened is that he wasn't very good with a lightsaber--a weapon he wasn't trained to use. Other than that, dude was firing off rounds and sniping people left and right with his blaster and picked up on the Falcon's ancient-ass targeting system relatively swiftly. He was integral to the resistance knowing how to blow up Starkiller Base. Shit, if anything he was way too competent for having just been a janitor.

Dude pulled his weight even without the sheer charisma and bravery.

 

[MisterHero]

Why would there be any reference to them? They're much further removed.

The world of VII is informed by the events of IV, V and VI.

aybe now that the First Order's army decimated, they'll put battle droids back into service!

believe

 

[JeffZero]

I can imagine at the end of Episode IX Rey and Ben (again called such) take on Snoke and the Knights of Ren in a final battle.

Definitely.

 

[Frustrated_me]

Read this elsewhere, I like it, a lot.

If Rey is Luke's daughter that would explain his look at the end. Imagine the pain and guilt Luke must have felt when Ben turned to the Dark Side. We still don't know how that happens and what involvement Luke has with Snoke. What if Snoke is someone Luke exposed Ben to? But to lose your sister and best friend's son to the Dark Side and then have him destroy everything you have? Woah. Now imagine he also has a young daughter who was spared the carnage and he decides he wants to remove her from all of this, from the lure of the Force, from the burden of being a Skywalker. So he abandons her on Jakku. Far away where her life will be difficult but safe from the struggles of being a Skywalker. Basically, him had he not followed Kenobi. Now imagine after 10-15 years of thinking you succeeding in doing what was best for her, she suddenly is standing in front of you, holding your own lightsaber, very much entrenched in the mess you were trying to protect her from.

 

[Briarios]

who's the mommy?

Phasma, now brainwashed to serve the First Order, which is why the child had to be hidden.

 

[super-heated plasma]

I actually need more space and vehicular combat in it. Also I am confused: There's the republic and the first order. Then there's the Resistance? Why doesn't the republic have its own army? They rely on some outside group to fight their battle for them? And if their not an outside group(but it really seems they are) then why would you call yourselves 'The Resistance' if your part of the legitimate government?

Ah well, I still loved the movie. I knew Han was going to die in this as soon as I learned Ford was reprising the role. Still hit me hard though. The entire theater went silent.

 

[SubiyaCryolite]

Man, talking to some of my black friends about this movie is like stepping into a minefield.

Finn is still an elephant in the room. Many of them straight up pissed off, and it totally destroys their liking of the movie.

Personally, I really liked Finn, and thought he helped carry numerous parts along with his overall charisma and heart. But the incompetency, in conjunction with the sanitation reveal (never mind the not Jedi stuff) is a huge point of anger.

Fail, they need to chill. Not everyone needs to be Captain America, or a Big Deal. I think he turned out much better than I expected. (yeah Im black)

 

[Einchy]

Saw this on Reddit.

 

[Blizzard]

i also felt like he was insta-friendzoned by rey.
some sexual tension between them would work better i think.

It felt like she wasn't interested, or at minimum was focused on the mission, and he was instantly interested (asking about a "cute boyfriend" etc.). It was a bit stalkery, but that almost makes sense if he's a Stormtrooper janitor who basically never talked to women besides his scary Captain Phasma.

I think Abrams sort of left it open. Sequels could push it into a love story where she falls for him, or push it into a Luke and Han situation. The love story is more cliched so maybe that will happen.