[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens - It's True. All of it.

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How is that true though? Rey is someone who is strong and independent because her situation forced her to be in order to survive. But deep down she was clearly just hoping for her parents to come back and make it all okay, basically telling herself that if she just hung on, one day everything is will magically fixed.

After meeting Finn, she is forced to confront that false hope she was clinging to, several characters interact with her specifically to move her along that path. First Han offers her a job with him, then Maz tells her about the saber calling to her and the ways of the force, and even Ren contributes by reading her emotions and putting them in context as a stranger, telling her that she knows deep down that what she wants is not going to happen. All of this happens over the course of the film, and in the end when she finally accepts her destiny, it leads her to Luke. Whatever happens after this, I don't think we can say that she didn't have that sort of journey where others influenced her and eventually she made a choice that put her on a new path in her life.

This isn't deep stuff or whatever, but it is clearly there.

She doesn't have a moment though where she confronts that on an internal level. Maz talking to her is the closest to that. I guess you can say because she decides to go to Luke's that is resolution enough but unlike Finn who has a clear reason as to why he stops running, she doesn't have that sort of moment. Up until the Starkiller base assault, she wants to go back to Jakku. So what made her decide to let go?
 
You want a real fuckin Mary Sue, baby Anakin for one. Hell, even Jedi Anakin. "Obi-Wan doesn't believe in me!"

Rey isn't insufferable. That's a big part of not being a Mary Sue, guys. Whatever that je ne se quois is, it's important.
 
No, it's not, because his body language and discipline in fighting doesn't suggest it all.

You really think Ren is the type to doubt his ability to beat a girl he knows has no training? One he has on the edge of chasm and a mere push away from death?

Jesus.

The dude was beating his wound to keep himself focused and it wasn't working very well. I think his abilities make him arrogant (it rhymes!) so when someone actually has the ability to go toe-to-toe with him it rattles him and he resorts to temptation instead of brute forcing the fight. He knew Rey could potentially kill him, so he offers to train her.
 
Lol all the people talking about Finn's lack of lightsaber experience

How much does Luke have when he fights Vader in Empire?

At that point he had:

Deflected 3 shots from a training droid in ANH
Cut off a yeti arm
Swung it at a hallucination in some rocks

So Luke didn't exactly get extensive combat training either before he took on one of the most revered warriors in the Galaxy. In fact Finn could have very been trained in multiple hand to hand combat scenarios (including swords) as a trooper. And he was fighting some Jedi school dropout reject who couldn't even build a proper lightsaber
 
Lol @ the Ren defense force. Perfect mental focus? That version of Ren only exists in the trailers and fan fantasies. Dude is a ragelord choker. Search your feelings and you will know it to be true.
 
You want a real fuckin Mary Sue, baby Anakin for one. Hell, even Jedi Anakin. "Obi-Wan doesn't believe in me!"

Rey isn't insufferable. That's a big part of not being a Mary Sue, guys. Whatever that je ne se quois is, it's important.

Personally, I hate the term mary sue. It's has no fixed definition and I've seen people literally define it as just "Character I dislike." The real thing it actually boils down to is "I don't believe in this character as presented", which can happen for a number of reasons, so it's always more productive to frame the discussion like that instead.

Lol @ the Ren defense force. Perfect mental focus? That version of Ren only exists in the trailers and fan fantasies. Dude is a ragelord choker. Search your feelings and you will know it to be true.

What, did you miss the scene where Ren accepts the news that where that one general dude tells him they lost the droid because of Finn and some random woman and simply accepted the news with stoic consideration, afterwards the messenger simply went back to his job?
 
he doesn't.

This will likely become way more obvious to you on second viewing.

I've already seen in it twice. Maybe you should give it another viewing yourself.

Ren maintains his disciplined swordplay. He doesn't try to swing aimlessly or widely. He doesn't outpace himself. He maintains the discipline through the pain and still tries to recruit Rey despite having her on an edge.

How on earth are you justifying he was mentally compromised to the point of being unhinged?

Okay, this is just willful denial of the events of the film.

Guy looks that he's barely holding himself together, beating his grevious wound in a self flagilating gesture, and just killed his father who he outright states he still had feelings of love for.

YUP, THIS GUY'S MIND IS STRAIGHT AS AN ARROW, NO MENTAL COMPROMISE HERE

He was in physical pain. That's what you're tauting as evidence of a mental break down.

Please.

The recruitment effort was among Driver's most blatantly unhinged performances.

Explain this.
 
There is supposed to be an intense vibration and gyration when ignited I believe.

This was changed in The Clone Wars. It used to be that you had to be a Force user or General Grevious to be able to weild a Lightsaber effectively. Then The Clone Wars happened and you just had to be a cool enough character.

I don't know why people are so desperately reaching in arguing Ren was mentally compromised.

He wasn't.

If he were, why would he be trying to recruit Rey? That makes no sense.

Recruiting an apprentice is what every Sith or Wanna-be Sith does. Vader does it even while conflicted with Luke. Being emotionally unstable doesn't preclude Kylo trying to do it as well.

Why are you so intent on ignoring the precedent set forth in the previous movies, which are the only thing that governs not only how things work in the SWU but also the character motivations?
 
Personally, I hate the term mary sue. It's has no fixed definition and I've seen people literally define it as just "Character I dislike." The real thing it actually boils down to is "I don't believe in this character as presented", which can happen for a number of reasons, so it's always more productive to frame the discussion like that instead.
It means a self-insert fanfiction character AFAIK.
 
She doesn't have a moment though where she confronts that on an internal level. Maz talking to her is the closest to that. I guess you can say because she decides to go to Luke's that is resolution enough but unlike Finn who has a clear reason as to why he stops running, she doesn't have that sort of moment. Up until the Starkiller base assault, she wants to go back to Jakku. So what made her decide to let go?

Again, I think this comes down to pacing. The plot is moving faster than the characters can think, and so the plot seems to be leading the characters and not the other way around.
 
Personally, I hate the term mary sue. It's has no fixed definition and I've seen people literally define it as just "Character I dislike." The real thing it actually boils down to is "I don't believe in this character as presented", which can happen for a number of reasons, so it's always more productive to frame the discussion like that instead.

Yeah, you're probably right
 
Lol @ the Ren defense force. Perfect mental focus? That version of Ren only exists in the trailers and fan fantasies. Dude is a ragelord choker. Search your feelings and you will know it to be true.

I don't know if it is a defense force so much as a need to rewatch the movie. He's very unhinged and I look forward to seeing where things go for him from here.

I get the impression that you're less enthused, but yeah.
 
You want a real fuckin Mary Sue, baby Anakin for one. Hell, even Jedi Anakin. "Obi-Wan doesn't believe in me!"

Rey isn't insufferable. That's a big part of not being a Mary Sue, guys. Whatever that je ne se quois is, it's important.

Rey screws up. Crashing the Falcon around when escaping, messing with the wrong doors on Han's Freighter, running away and putting her friends in danger, fails at force mind control the first couple times, etc.

Pretty much everything she does she fails at a few times before she finally gets it to work.
 
I don't know why people are so desperately reaching in arguing Ren was mentally compromised.

He wasn't.

If he were, why would he be trying to recruit Rey? That makes no sense.

I don't know why you wouldn't think he wasn't going through mental strife/anguish. His explosive and destructive temper, obsessions with Darth Vader, desire for power / affirmation from Snoke, conversation with Han, so many of his scenes are devoted to setting up this great internal conflict he has.

When he begs for Rey to let him teach her, it's an allegory for his own journey and decisions. He wants her to validate his own decision to follow Snoke instead of Luke, to kill his Father, to join the Dark Side. Driver really does a great job acting here and expressing that he's really talking about himself.
 
Star Wars wasn't even original in 1957, let alone 1977.

This is the exact movie people have been asking for since 1983, maybe even 1980. Oh nooo, it's too similar to the movies we criticized the prequels for not being similar enough to.
Just because people want something similar doesn't they want it beat for beat
 
Where did I say it was?

But to the original's credit, at least they packaged it in a new way. Can't saw the same for Force Awakens, aside from its breakneck pace

Look, I agree it could've been something more different. In fact that's what I wanted when I saw the trailers, the obvious ANH parallels.

But I loved the movie. I felt it managed a perfect balance betwen new characters and old ones, which needed to be there.

It wasn't beat for beat.
 
If you were to pick up a katana now and someone who knew how to use one swung at you twice, you would get hit twice. You would not be able to block/parry the way Finn (never used a lightsaber) does against Kylo (trained by the greatest jedi, even if for 10 mins).
You keep bringing up being combat trained by Luke, but you forget that Light side jedi primarily use weapons as a means of defense.
 
Wow I thought the movie was amazing . After 3 shit prequels I am so glad it feels like the originals .

I thought the jakku scenes were a real highlight . Loved seeing the downed at-at and the crashed ships.

Han was fantastic , you can tell he really loved being back in the role . Was sad to see him go (and poor chewie)

Also loved Kylo ren . Such a badass presence , excited to see where they go with him next .
 
Rey screws up. Crashing the Falcon around when escaping, messing with the wrong doors on Han's Freighter, running away and putting her friends in danger, fails at force mind control the first couple times, etc.

Pretty much everything she does she fails at a few times before she finally gets it to work.

Rey flew the Falcon better than Han after like five minutes. That was ridiculous.
 
Also Phasma is in this movie for literally 45 seconds. I feel bad they made the actress go on the media tour. She is barely in the movie.

She will likely play a pivotal role in the next movie. The purpose of her scenes is to give her real motivation to chase down Boyega. She's been humiliated, and now she wants some payback.
 
I don't know why people are so desperately reaching in arguing Ren was mentally compromised.

He wasn't.

If he were, why would he be trying to recruit Rey? That makes no sense.

Reaching?? Come on, it's pretty obvious that he's unhinged. Dude's talking to his dead grandfather's helmet. Also, he just killed his dad, and has a big ol hole at the side of his stomach.
 
She doesn't have a moment though where she confronts that on an internal level. Maz talking to her is the closest to that. I guess you can say because she decides to go to Luke's that is resolution enough but unlike Finn who has a clear reason as to why he stops running, she doesn't have that sort of moment. Up until the Starkiller base assault, she wants to go back to Jakku. So what made her decide to let go?

Realizing that by accepting her affinity to the force she can really make a difference and protect those who have helped her. I feel her beating Ren and saving Finn is that moment for her. There wasn't any down time so it wasn't internalized as a personal reflection moment but I didn't feel it was out of place for her character.
 
Lol @ the Ren defense force. Perfect mental focus? That version of Ren only exists in the trailers and fan fantasies. Dude is a ragelord choker. Search your feelings and you will know it to be true.

I know right?

The people that think Ren had a clear mind or was straight as an arrow in this film is on some weird shit. The guy was pretty much an emo if anything. He even cries about how he's "being seduced by the light side".

The guy is in constant emotional conflict. It was shown when he killed Han, and after when he screamed at Finn "TRAITORRRRRRR!" when Finn as a storm trooper, was just a nobody and hardly warranted such a rage inducing scream like that. Which as someone else indicated, that it was more of a scream of Ren's own shame for his own betrayal.

Ren in a clear state of mind? Yeah....no.
 
You don't really have any excuse then, I guess.

You've misread basic visual cues pretty badly.



I watched the movie.

This is the second time you've cut out and completely disregarded points backing up my argument. It's transparent and irritating.

I don't know why you wouldn't think he wasn't going through mental strife/anguish. His explosive and destructive temper, obsessions with Darth Vader, desire for power / affirmation, conversation with Han, so many of his scenes are devoted to setting up this great internal conflict he has.

When he begs for Rey to let him teach her, it's an allegory for his own journey and decisions. He wants her to validate his own decision to follow Snoke instead of Luke.

Ren's conflict is with his alignment to the Dark Side is established earlier on in the film when he confessed privately that he feels the lure to the Light Side. In killing Han he committed to the Dark Side. Nothing suggests that he is conflicted after that. He made his choice.

Ren didn't beg Rey for shit. He had her teethering on the edge. It was ESB Vader v Luke all over again.
 
Just because people want something similar doesn't they want it beat for beat

People saying they want something similar is just shorthand for saying they want something as good. That's why fan service is always a bad thing. Giving the audience what they want is fine, giving them something they didn't know they wanted is great storytelling.

At the end of the day creating something from scratch that creates the same response in the audience is a lot harder than replaying the old story beats. Disney didn't want to take any chances on this franchise and so this is the result.
 
No, he thinks she's a BioWare blank slate protagonist. And since those can be used for power fantasies, I suppose the link is there.

Hmmm... it rubs me the wrong way. I guess it's just because I like Rey so much, though. Obviously I'm going to disagree with people who don't.
 
I don't know if it is a defense force so much as a need to rewatch the movie. He's very unhinged and I look forward to seeing where things go for him from here.

I get the impression that you're less enthused, but yeah.

????

I love the character of Ren. Most exciting thing in the new movies. I just think people who try to pretend he's the villain he wants to be rather than the one he is to be hilarious.
 
Lol all the people talking about Finn's lack of lightsaber experience

How much does Luke have when he fights Vader in Empire?

At that point he had:

Deflected 3 shots from a training droid in ANH
Cut off a yeti arm
Swung it at a hallucination in some rocks

So Luke didn't exactly get extensive combat training either before he took on one of the most revered warriors in the Galaxy. In fact Finn could have very been trained in multiple hand to hand combat scenarios (including swords) as a trooper. And he was fighting some Jedi school dropout reject who couldn't even build a proper lightsaber
Say what you will about Kylo. But leave his lightsaber out of this.
 
I believe that Rey had extensive Jedi training from Luke at a very young age. Kylo/Ben got jealous as she is so much more powerful and faster to learn than he was and the jealousy and thirst to become more powerful turns him to the Dark Side/Snoke.

After Kylo kills/turns Luke's remaining disciples Rey is sent into hiding so that Kylo cant turn or kill her. For her own protection Luke probably does some kind of mind block trick on her so that she doesn't remember her early childhood and tells her that he will come back for her soon.

Touching the lightsaber 'awakens' the force within Rey and she begins to remember the training she once had under Luke. She probably remembers all the pain, suffering and pain too which is why she wants no part of it and initially rejects the weapon.

If both Rey and Kylo are former students of Luke and Rey is naturally more powerful (maybe because both her parents are force users rather than just one, like Kylo) then the final fight isn't as much of a stretch considering Kylo is mortally wounded at that point and bleeding to death.
 
It means a self-insert fanfiction character AFAIK.

Which is inherently an unprovable accusation, unless you know the author personally. It's a term that can't even be applied to Anakin. What parts of his personality were applied from Lucas? What parts of Edward were taken from Meyer? And even if you somehow know the author, what about well written characters that are also greatly similar to the writer? Are they mary sue's by default as well? What about EVERY other character ever? Any writer will tell you that they put pieces of themselves into their characters, so how is a mary sue any different from a regular character beyond the fact that you don't like them?

It's a shitty, shitty term for a problem that is more complex than any framing of it that I've seen. Call something a mary sue, you have 10 different people thinking 10 different things, often for non-supportable reasons. Say it's a character justification issue and explain why you don't buy it, everyone knows exactly what your problem with the character is.

He was in physical pain. That's what you're tauting as evidence of a mental break down.

Please.

Okay, dude. Like I said before, at this point, you're just not giving the film the narrative affordance you give the other star wars films. If you want to insist on motives and events that don't make sense, then yeah, that's exactly what your going to see. We've offered you interpretations that work within the film and work to make it a better product. But if you want to take the worst possible interpertation, that's your choice, but all your going to end up with is a movie you've made bad by putting it into the most impractical perspective impossible.

????

I love the character of Ren. Most exciting thing in the new movies. I just think people who try to pretend he's the villain he wants to be rather than the one he is to be hilarious.

Kind of like how Lucas reinvisioned Vader as the most epic Jedi evar with the highest respect, when the Empire generals gave Vader crap all day.
 
Ren didn't beg Rey for shit. He had her teethering on the edge. It was ESB Vader v Luke all over again.

Dude, Ren is almost pleading with Rey when he brings up the teaching. Driver is giving a completely unhinged performance, I don't understand how you didn't catch that after seeing it twice. It was a last ditch effort to salvage a fight that was quickly going against him.
 
I've only just skimmed the thread cause I had sleep then a double at work right after seeing it last night but I LOVED it. I was worried the similarities between it and a New Hope would bog it down for me but coming out of it I thought it was the perfect choice after having been so alienated by the prequels. I also felt there was enough different to set it apart.

Your whole post was a good read but I cut it down to this because I think it's something that should be acknowledged.

The parrallels between this movie and the OT were definitely needed for this movie to win back the trust of the fans. While it may make for a less interesting plot arc it brings the viewer back to their memories of the Star Wars movies that manifested a cultural phenomenon. Now that they've done that, they can take new or different direction but hitting that nostalgia button absolutely had to happen given the bad taste the PT left in the fanbases mouth.
 
Dude, Ren is almost pleading with Rey when he brings up the teaching. Driver is giving a completely unhinged performance, I don't understand how you didn't catch that after seeing it twice. It was a last ditch effort to salvage a fight that was quickly going against him.

How the fuck was the fight going against him? He had Rey on the run and on the edge. She didn't get her magical Force power up until after that sentence.

Ren had her where he wanted her. How about you go see the film again? Driver was acting out physical pain and agony from getting gut shot.
 
Realizing that by accepting her affinity to the force she can really make a difference and protect those who have helped her. I feel her beating Ren and saving Finn is that moment for her. There wasn't any down time so it wasn't internalized as a personal reflection moment but I didn't feel it was out of place for her character.
I feel like they didn't convey that clearly then at the end as she beats Ren then it's off to find Luke with no sort of reflection on her part. Maybe if they had a funeral scene for Han, something like that might have come through better but it just skips from them blowing up the Death Star Mk.3 to Luke's entry.
 
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