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[MrHoot]

I would say Luke is not really in the same field as Rey. In A New Hope, he has competent flying skills (with small ships/fighters) and somewhat competent shooting, but in most situation he has to be saved by someone else or rely a lot on others, there's barely a moment where you think he could've done it by himself.

Rey doesn't just have good combat skills, she's just good at ...everything she enterprises, and is almost instantly liked or trusted by everyone in the movie, including Han Solo who maybe should know better after all these years of smuggling

 

[jett]

So did Luke and he barely knew how to hold a lightsaber let alone get out of a simple bar fight in ANH...

Luke really isn't a Mary Sue. He gets saved multiple times by Obi-Wan, Han, gets his ass kicked (and spared) by Vader, and Vader saves him again at the very end. He doesn't really get the win there.

Rey is just too good. I think people are hung up on the name "Mary Sue", maybe they hear that and think it's misogynistic, but that's what she is. She's good at everything she does and overpowered everyone. Even before anyone brought those two words up, the biggest complaint from most people about her was how she steamrolled through Kylo Ren and how suddenly and quickly she's so good at using the force.

 

[eyeball_kid]

So did Luke and he barely knew how to hold a lightsaber let alone get out of a simple bar fight in ANH...

Luke also lived on a farm with foster parents. Rey had no family and survived (assumedly) on her own, as a female. She had no choice but to get tough. Luke farmed and shot at wamprats in his spare time.

 

[Anth0ny]

It's his age. Anakin in II and III is a cocky show-off, too. By the OT Vader realizes coolness comes from restraint.

Exactly. It's the same reason why Kylo does some spinny, fancy, prequel-esque light saber stuff in the snow forest at the end. He's a try hard. That's his whole character!

 

[heliosRAzi]

I think the general gist was more "We let male characters get away with this a lot more, and the amount of criticism she is going to get is going to be fairly disproportional due to her being a woman."

We put up with Gary Stus?

 

[Servbot #42]

I watched the whole movie except the opening five minutes and these dudes only briefly appeared for one scene, so did they shorten their scene or what?

 

[Shaanyboi]

I feel that they played it backwards. Have the planet breaking Save Rey not Ren.

The only reason they separate them like that is to prevent Rey from killing him in anger like she was about to. Her offensive push was her tapping into her darkside potential. Han died, Finn (for all we know) had died. And Rey, with zero actual guidance about how she should be tapping into the Force, lashes out against Ren, drawing from her anger. The only time we saw Luke go through this was at the end of RotJ against Vader, but after he'd already had Obi-Wan and Yoda to guide him.

With Rey, she's now had a taste of what she can do with her anger, and whatever happens next, she's going to go into her next battle well aware of what she's capable of by tapping into her rage. The question will be if Luke's teachings will let her overcome that temptation or if she'll give in out of desperation.

 

[jman2050]

We put up with Gary Stus?

All the time.

 

[Frog-fu]

http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/19/10626896/star-wars-the-force-awakens-rey-mary-sue-feminist

"Yeah she's totally a flawless character but let's enjoy it."

Nah, I want and expect better out of Star Wars.

Princess Leia is a strong female character not in spite of her being flawed or vulnerabile but because of it.

Rey - and bless Daisy Ridley for being so great and the writing for giving her such a great demeanour - doesn't need to be a Mary Sue to work. In fact she would work much better without being one because then she would at least invoke tension when the stakes are high.

She doesn't have to be good at everything. She doesn't need to be invulnerable. It should be OK for her to need help or rely on others around her. She needs to be more than just a strong female. She actually needs to be a strong character as well.

 

[Ghostmaster]

I watched the whole movie except the opening five minutes and these dudes only briefly appeared for one scene, so did they shorten their scene or what?

They are saving them for the next movie, that was their entire screentime in this one.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

Naw, I like that they basically showed Kylo was not all powerful. He's the first Sith character that doesnt come of as being "totally in control super cool bad guy". But once he kills Han, not only is powerful, he has the potential to surpass Vader.

The naiveness of the new cast is clearly there to allow them to grow. Kylo is progressing just as much as the good guys are. In OG Star Wars Luke was building up to fight Vader, in the new trilogy, Rey/Kylo/Fin are all growing together, making it not clear who is more powerful right off the bat.

But breaking his force hold and proceeding to whip his ass once she remembers to use the force does make it clear who is more powerful right off the bat. Ren has been at this for years and gets bested by somebody who just tried using the force for the first time like 15 minutes ago.


Sidebar: the theory that Kylo's sword play is weak because there are no Jedi for him to go against gets thrown out the window by him losing the force hold battle with Rey. At first I thought well maybe Kylo is stronger in force holds and chokes because he likes to torment people but Rey even broke his holds like it was nothing.

 

[PeterLegend]

When Kylo Ren took the helmet off, the first thought I had was to put it back on. Dude was straight up ugly

AMIRITE?

 

[brandonh83]

And I'll keep saying it, take those future films out of any discussion of this film. This film must stand on it's own, you cannot say "but they might explain this later." Now, I'm not saying you can't leave anything to the sequels or set anything else up for the future but main character motivations and main plot details can't just be left hanging with, "just wait for the next movie."

Rey had a standalone arc in this film. I'm saying we don't have the full picture yet.

 

[Tom Nook Sawyer]

I think the general gist was more "We let male characters get away with this a lot more, and the amount of criticism she is going to get is going to be fairly disproportional due to her being a woman."

Because the leads in the prequels never got any shit...

 

[Toa TAK]

She's in episode 8 so not completely thrown away.

Ah cool. Glad that's the case as that would make waste for a killer design and potential nemesis.

 

[heliosRAzi]

All the time.

Which ones?

 

[Forkball]

Why didn't they just kill Phasma? They blast stormtroopers by the dozen yet let her roam free.

 

[OricWindstar]

"Yeah she's totally a flawless character but let's enjoy it."

Nah, I want and expect better out of Star Wars.

Princess Leia is a strong female character not in spite of her being flawed or vulnerabile but because of it.

Rey - and bless Daisy Ridley for being so great and the writing for giving her such a great demeanour - doesn't need to be a Mary Sue to work. In fact she would work much better without being one because then she would at least invoke tension when the stakes are high.

She doesn't have to be good at everything. She doesn't need to be invulnerable. It should be OK for her to need help or rely on others around her. She needs to be more than just a strong female. She actually needs to be a strong character as well.

I think having her get caught by one of the Rathtars and having Finn save her on the freighter would have helped tremendously.

 

[EroticSushi]

Why didn't they just kill Phasma? They blast stormtroopers by the dozen yet let her roam free.

They paid top dollar to get that armor chromed up.

 

[Charcoal]

When Kylo Ren took the helmet off, the first thought I had was to put it back on. Dude was straight up ugly

AMIRITE?

Stop.

 

[foxtrot3d]

She seemed kinda bleh. Not the fault of Daisy but the character seemed boring to me. I'd say the best characters were Finn, Poe then Han. Rey seemed to be there and was kinda interesting but I really didn't. Care about anything she did as it really didn't have much effect on the story. Yea she finds bb8 but besides the fact that's she's a Jedi, she's not really central imo

Eh, the only new character I liked was Finn since he had an actual arc and the audience could relate to him. Poe is a dud because he just reappears out of nowhere after having spent about a total of 5 minutes with his character in the opening. And, of course, with Rey we basically have nothing to latch onto with her other than a BIG "?" so it's hard to relate to her character or feel much tensions when she can do everything.

Finn was just this everyman character thrust into this crazy world and trying to get way the hell away from it all. He meets a chic' (in a kinda forced romance angle, but whatever) who sees him for something he is not and eventually decides to stop trying to run and fight for something. In the end, after suffering a few losses and setbacks he manages to defeat the forces of evil and help save the chic' he really digs. A classic arc.

Other than Finn, Han Solo is the only other character I liked and could relate to even if at times he fell too hard on the "wise sage" role.

 

[blakep267]

When I say Max and Furiosa I just simply mean that Furiosa is the kinda the lead in that movie but it doesn't diminish max at all. They're both badass as fuck and at the top by the end, in their own way.

But I totally agree with what you're saying and that's why I'm so concerned. I liked Finn's character more than Rey (and again, I love her) and I'm worried that he will always be the marginal sidekick while she takes all the jedi glory.

I hope I'm wrong but it's concerning.

yeah. I'd be very disappointed if Finn is relegated to side kick. Imo this movie and the story is as much his as it is Rey's. Like he's just as invested in this conflict as she is. Just because she may be likes daughter and the Jedi I don't wanna see him left behind

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

I think the final paragraph sums it up nicely:



I agree, I would have preferred she been a bit less great at everything, but she's not a poorly written character because of it.

Well I disagree. Also, the characters she used completely invalidate her argument. Like in what why is Captain America a Gary Stu?

I think the general gist was more "We let male characters get away with this a lot more, and the amount of criticism she is going to get is going to be fairly disproportional due to her being a woman."

Sure, but that shouldn't stop people from making that criticism. It's unfortunate but that's how it is.

 

[Ghostmaster]

"Yeah she's totally a flawless character but let's enjoy it."

Nah, I want and expect better out of Star Wars.

Princess Leia is a strong female character not in spite of her being flawed or vulnerabile but because of it.

Rey - and bless Daisy Ridley for being so great and the writing for giving her such a great demeanour - doesn't need to be a Mary Sue to work. In fact she would work much better without being one because then she would at least invoke tension when the stakes are high.

She doesn't have to be good at everything. She doesn't need to be invulnerable. It should be OK for her to need help or rely on others around her. She needs to be more than just a strong female. She actually needs to be a strong character as well.

Doesn't Finn technically save her when he tells her to run because he heard the TIE fighters, and she presumably doesn't know what they sound like at that distance or hasn't heard them at all?

 

[Servbot #42]

They are saving them for the next movie, that was their entire screentime in this one.

oh i see makes sense, it's just too bad because they looked super cool.

 

[Shaanyboi]

When Kylo Ren took the helmet off, the first thought I had was to put it back on. Dude was straight up ugly

AMIRITE?

for fuck's sake

 

[shield]

The visual dictionary mentions that 3PO's new arm is a "memento of another droid's sacrifice", which makes me somewhat excited for that one-shot comic.

 

[PBalfredo]

I think having her get caught by one of the Rathtars and having Finn save her on the freighter would have helped tremendously.

BWEEP! BWEEP!

Oh no, it's the Strong Female Character Alarm! Quick, we better damsel her!

Ah, there. Much better. Now she's acceptable.

 

[OricWindstar]

Well I disagree. Also, the characters she used completely invalidate her argument. Like in what why is Captain America a Gary Stu?

Sure, but that shouldn't stop people from making that criticism. It's unfortunate but that's how it is.

I'm actually stepping out, so I can't really respond to this. Sorry, didn't want you to think I just ignored you.

BWEEP! BWEEP!

Oh no, it's the Strong Female Character Alarm! Quick, we better damsel her!

Ah, there. Much better. Now she's acceptable.

What? I think it's awesome she's strong, I just wish Finn and her had helped each other out more, rather than Rey doing most of it.

 

[MMarston]

More and more I'm starting to think Rey is becoming the Jar Jar Binks of this film but for an incredibly unexpected reasoning.

 

[duckroll]

We put up with Gary Stus?

How else does Tom Cruise have a career?

 

[golem]

I watched the whole movie except the opening five minutes and these dudes only briefly appeared for one scene, so did they shorten their scene or what?

They'll probably get more screen time in the next films? Assuming they're alive of course

 

[Ghostmaster]

How else does Tom Cruise have a career?

Edge of Tomorrow? He is like the antithesis of Gary Stue there, albeit thanks to plot convenience

 

[The Librarian]

She doesn't have to be good at everything. She doesn't need to be invulnerable.

Nobody, including the movie, is saying this.

 

[GaimeGuy]

If it weren't for Rey saying "Luke Skywalker? I thought he was a myth!" I'd be convinced that Rey was one of the children being trained by Luke to become a Jedi, perhaps even the only survivor of Kylo Ren's massacre. And because of the trauma, she suppressed her knowledge of the Force, until the events of TFA, where it "awakened" within her out of a need to survive.

Still might be possible if Luke used the force to suppress her memories.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

How else does Tom Cruise have a career?

Anti-ageing remedies.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Luke really isn't a Mary Sue. He gets saved multiple times by Obi-Wan, Han, gets his ass kicked (and spared) by Vader, and Vader saves him again at the very end. He doesn't really get the win there.

Rey is just too good. I think people are hung up on the name "Mary Sue", maybe they hear that and think it's misogynistic, but that's what she is. She's good at everything she does and overpowered everyone. Even before anyone brought those two words up, the biggest complaint from most people about her was how she steamrolled through Kylo Ren and how suddenly and quickly she's so good at using the force.

I think you're misunderstanding me, I agree, read my posts from some pages back.

Luke also lived on a farm with foster parents. Rey had no family and survived (assumedly) on her own, as a female. She had no choice but to get tough. Luke farmed and shot at wamprats in his spare time.

You're inferring things that are never shown in either film. How do you know Luke never went past the bubble of his farm? When he goes after R2 he specifically grabs a blaster rifle because they've been having problems with the sand people. Thus, one can infer that he's been in scrapes with at least the sand people a few times. Second, getting in quick skirmishes with Jakku riff raff does not make one a Lightsaber Expert.

Rey had a standalone arc in this film. I'm saying we don't have the full picture yet.

Which was what, learning to "let the Force in?" She had no arc besides, "hmm maybe I should figure these powers out now? Which comes at the very end, very suddenly."

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

I'm actually stepping out, so I can't really respond to this. Sorry, didn't want you to think I just ignored you.

What? I think it's awesome she's strong, I just wish Finn and her had helped each other out more, rather than Rey doing most of it.

It's fine.

 

[brandonh83]

BWEEP! BWEEP!

Oh no, it's the Strong Female Character Alarm! Quick, we better damsel her!

Ah, there. Much better. Now she's acceptable.

Yeah I don't see how this would help or make anything better. Oh of course she needs help because she's female lol

No matter what they did some camps are gonna take issue. This is why that article said to just chill and enjoy it because not everyone will be satisfied regardless.

 

[Tom Nook Sawyer]

Edge of Tomorrow? He is like the antithesis of Gary Stue there, albeit thanks to plot convenience

Now that's a great sci-fi movie with a strong female lead

 

[MMarston]

Edge of Tomorrow?

Eh, the fleshing out in that film doesn't hold a candle to his constant perfect Cruise-missilery in the Mission Impossible films which are way more popular.

 

[Brakke]

The Knights of Ren include Luke's padawans or nah? Did Kyle kill all the apprentices or turn all of them or turn any of them?

She's in episode 8 so not completely thrown away.

Lol is this true? Before I saw his one I would've said "Phasma is in episode 7" but like... was she tho?

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

So here's a thought...the First Order's Death Star-Essie weapon seems poorly conceived.

The neat thing about the Death Star was that it was mobile...it could move around the galaxy as necessary to attack its targets.

Does the First Order's weapon do that? It seems to me like it's a planet locked in orbit.

 

[Good Job Bob]

If it weren't for Rey saying "Luke Skywalker? I thought he was a myth!" I'd be convinced that Rey was one of the children being trained by Luke to become a Jedi, perhaps even the only survivor of Kylo Ren's massacre. And because of the trauma, she suppressed her knowledge of the Force, until the events of TFA, where it "awakened" within her out of a need to survive.

Still might be possible if Luke used the force to suppress her memories.

This is one of the theories floating around about her now and its what I hope is the case, it would go a long way in explaining how she is so seemingly absurdly naturally gifted with the Force.

 

[MrHoot]

More and more I'm starting to think Rey is becoming the Jar Jar Binks of this film but for an incredibly unexpected reasoning.

Well let's not go THAT far.
She's far from cringy or annoying. She's perfectly acceptable. It's just that, for a big colourful cast, she hogs a lot of spotlight

BWEEP! BWEEP!

Oh no, it's the Strong Female Character Alarm! Quick, we better damsel her!

Ah, there. Much better. Now she's acceptable.

What if I just wanted Finn to have a bit more screentime/high points to make him seem a bit more useful ? However I agree that we shouldn't make her "weak" in return. Just give more purpose to some of the other characters. I realize it's not an easy task though looking at how much happens in the movie, I guess they had to make concessions but it's still a bit of a bummer

 

[duckroll]

Edge of Tomorrow? He is like the antithesis of Gary Stue there, albeit thanks to plot convenience

And the movie bombed. Mission Impossible makes tons of money. People want to see Cruise as an unstoppable super Stu.

 

[blakep267]

As for the Mary Sue thing, the only feats of hers that kinda got to me was the mind control out of nowhere and the final fight. The mind control was just dumb and random and the final fight, I would've kept Finn in it longer and have them both take on Kylo. They both are amateurs and kilo has more experience

How else does Tom Cruise have a career?

Ehh he plays spies a lot and I'd assume that both male and female spies would play into that archetype. It's just that we don't have a ton of female spy type movies. Like what were the last ones, Salt and Colombiana?

 

[DragonSworne]

The only reason they separate them like that is to prevent Rey from killing him in anger like she was about to. Her offensive push was her tapping into her darkside potential. Han died, Finn (for all we know) had died. And Rey, with zero actual guidance about how she should be tapping into the Force, lashes out against Ren, drawing from her anger. The only time we saw Luke go through this was at the end of RotJ against Vader, but after he'd already had Obi-Wan and Yoda to guide him.

With Rey, she's now had a taste of what she can do with her anger, and whatever happens next, she's going to go into her next battle well aware of what she's capable of by tapping into her rage. The question will be if Luke's teachings will let her overcome that temptation or if she'll give in out of desperation.

Good point. This has me thinking about the Light vs Dark themes in this movie.

I have a feeling that JJ wants to break away from the simplistic Light = Good and Dark = Bad theme that George Lucas has clung to and created many plot holes in the movies up to this point.

I hope that this trilogy ends with the insight of balance and control being the key, not absolute dedication to one side of the force. That this eternal fight between dark and light won't end until a balance is embraced.

We see that with this first movies that even defeating the Sith and the Empire has done little to stop the wars. Luke Skywalker teaching only the light side has brought about a new threat. The internal struggle of Kylo ends in the death of one of the most influential characters in the story.

Hopefully these are signs to a balance in the force is what is truly needed, and not the eradication of one side.

 

[brandonh83]

Which was what, learning to "let the Force in?" She had no arc besides, "hmm maybe I should figure these powers out now? Which comes at the very end, very suddenly."

Actually yeah. She goes from being a loner, uncertain of the future to having a chance meeting and gets thrust into a situation that leads to self-discovery. This nobody ends up besting a figure of power and authority in Kylo. Tell me how that's any lesser than Luke's development in ANH. There's a reason why these are considered episodic.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Well, about the flying stuff, he already knew how to fly, and he gets his ass saved by the Millienium Falcon at the end anyway, and manages doing the deed thanks to Ghost Obi-Wan whispering sweet nothings to his ear. His entire crew gets wiped out if I'm not misremembering, he's just left for last.

I don't totally disagree, but I think the term Mary Sue is applied too liberally and isn't really a fit here. I do agree she's great at everything in a surprising way, but they do specifically call that out in the dialogue, and it seems to be part of the story. She doesn't *know* why she's good at these things, she seems to be a Force savant, which we have never seen before.

I'm much more invested in Finn because he doesn't have the Huge Big Destiny to fulfill, but the Big Huge Destiny of the Awesome Potential Person who is Great at Everything is pretty much Star Wars' core. It's just had inflationary pressure over the decades, form Luke (has magic, Best Pilot) to Anakin in the prequels (Most Magic Miticlorians Ever, Virgin Birth, Better Pilot than is Humanly Possible), to now (most of the above, plus powers come with no training).

Ren has similar inflation-- his force powers are better than ever (Now With Mind Reading!) but this is supposed to be him at a middle stage of his training.

So, some is inflation, some is standard Chosen One stuff, which always gets called Mary Sue but is really a much, much older trope dating back to at least the Arthur legend and probably longer than that.