Live from New Hampshire, it's the 3rd Democratic Primary Debate!

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tarius1210 said:
Who cares? It's the same thing.

Talk about the actually issues instead of nitpicking dumb shit.
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That's their job to analyze what was said. You're attempting to demonize Fox News for nothing. This isn't O'Reilly or Hannity on right now. Shannon Bream is pretty effing tame bruh.
 
This was a good debate and I'm sad that the Republican circus debates get more attention and more viewers and more discussion and a better OT.
 
Who do you think won the debate? Reading over the transcripts and everything, I think Bernie was definitely saying the right things out there.
 
ItIsOkBro said:
This was a good debate and I'm sad that the Republican circus debates get more attention and more viewers and more discussion and a better OT.
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I wish the Republicans only had a few serious candidates like the Dems so they could have an honest debate. There are good ideas in that pool, it is just the Trump media circus for the time being.
 
SolidSnakeUS said:
Who do you think won the debate? Reading over the transcripts and everything, I think Bernie was definitely saying the right things out there.
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In terms of the debate:

Hillary won foreign policy.

Sanders won the economy and healthcare.

O'Malley started out swinging then came crashing down.

Overall, I would say Hillary won due to fact that so much of the debate focused on foreign policy and the fact that she didn't outright lose economy and healthcare compared to Sanders tripping with foreign policy.
 
Retro4ever said:
I wish the Republicans only had a few serious candidates like the Dems so they could have an honest debate. There are good ideas in that pool, it is just the Trump media circus for the time being.
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If you don't think Rubio-Cruz-Paul had substantive exchanges then I just don't know. Just about every time they spoke was full of real issues. People are blind to that though because they just want blood from the Trump, Jeb!, and Kasich feud.
 
SourShoes said:
If you don't think Rubio-Cruz-Paul had substantive exchanges then I just don't know. Just about every time they spoke was full of real issues. People are blind to that though because they just want blood from the Trump, Jeb!, and Kasich feud.
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There are really good moments. I see that. The problem is that Trump still leads polls and he keeps getting most of the media attention. I like that Ted Cruz is pushing up the ladder but the first two weeks of February will be telling.
 
Volimar said:
Yep. Bernie had a few strong points but he mostly didn't do so great. Pretty disheartening.
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I've accepted he's the man with the right answers to some of the domestic problems - he's the guy for healthcare and college of the ones running - but not the person to promote them. He has the ideas, but not the oration to explain them to the masses for them to get it.

It also doesn't help he has the problem most Brooklynites do when it comes to oration itself. We tend to yell. Like I said somewhere else here today, Carl Sagan was a fluke in this regard.
 
Retro4ever said:
There are really good moments. I see that. The problem is that Trump still leads polls and he keeps getting most of the media attention. I like that Ted Cruz is pushing up the ladder but the first two weeks of February will be telling.
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Agreed. This is a very stressful time for moderate Republicans. This Trump support is very scary. I wish more people would actually follow him in the news and listen to what he's saying. A lot of conservatives don't keep up with news and just go with the person they hear most about. Very unfortunate in this case.
 
Foffy said:
I've accepted he's the man with the right answers to some of the domestic problems - he's the guy for healthcare and college of the ones running - but not the person to promote them. He has the ideas, but not the oration to explain them to the masses for them to get it.

It also doesn't help he has the problem most Brooklynites do when it comes to oration itself. We tend to yell. Like I said somewhere else here today, Carl Sagan was a fluke in this regard.
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Bernie's greatest achievement during this election cycle will be pulling the next president farther to the left then she would have otherwise
 
So what's the point of adding more debates at this point? The hope that there's as increased chance of some big Clinton gaffe that gives the win to someone else?
 
googleplex said:
Bernie's greatest achievement during this election cycle will be pulling the next president farther to the left then she would have otherwise
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Indeed. That's a great plus here. He's moving ideas, and that's the key.

Not as fast enough as it should be, but that speaks volumes to how bad everything already is.

Bam Bam Baklava said:
So what's the point of more debates at this point? The hope that there's as increased chance of some big Clinton gaffe that gives the win to someone else?
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That's exactly why DWS made so few debates, and two of them were on days and times most people don't care about.
 
Foffy said:
I've accepted he's the man with the right answers to some of the domestic problems - he's the guy for healthcare and college of the ones running - but not the person to promote them. He has the ideas, but not the oration to explain them to the masses for them to get it.

It also doesn't help he has the problem most Brooklynites do when it comes to oration itself. We tend to yell. Like I said somewhere else here today, Carl Sagan was a fluke in this regard.
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As a guy who lived in a Brooklyn apartment for a few months, this is true. Queens is much quieter.

Bam Bam Baklava said:
So what's the point of adding more debates at this point? The hope that there's as increased chance of some big Clinton gaffe that gives the win to someone else?
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Pretty much. Given the size of the field they don't really need 22 debates this time around, it just gives the GOP more ammo to use and the candidates more time to screw up. The big issue has been the time of the debates, I mean the fucking weekend? Really?
 
Foffy said:
I've accepted he's the man with the right answers to some of the domestic problems - he's the guy for healthcare and college of the ones running - but not the person to promote them. He has the ideas, but not the oration to explain them to the masses for them to get it.

It also doesn't help he has the problem most Brooklynites do when it comes to oration itself. We tend to yell. Like I said somewhere else here today, Carl Sagan was a fluke in this regard.
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When he speaks I feel like I'm being lectured.

I like his stance on the economy though.
 
tarius1210 said:
When he speaks I feel like I'm being lectured.
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Many Americans actually have to be lectured at how bad our society is. That's how ignore-ant many people have become.

For example, many people think most developed nations have waiting lists for medical care, which is why we have, somehow, a better system despite being one where people can't even afford seeing a doctor..
 
Jonm1010 said:
No you can't.

You absolutely do need to raise taxes across the board to pay for some of the actual meaningful reforms Democrats want at the core of their party like UHC.

Bernie is just more willing to come out and admit the truth and break this stupid vicious cycle democrats have gotten themselves into by playing into the hands of the GOP by universally demonizing tax raises to anyone but the richest of the rich.

I really wish Hillary would of used a bit of that momentum to nudge the breaking of that cycle. Instead of doubling down.
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It's extremely sad when tax increases kill reforms like UHC as seen in places like Vermont and probably soon Colorado. But it's even worse at the federal level. The US just passed a major spending/tax package yet instead of demanding lawmakers run a deficit that works for you...you'd rather raise taxes for a misinformed reason. Ignorance is killing the US in so many ways.
 
Foffy said:
Many Americans actually have to be lectured at how bad our society is. That's how ignore-ant many people have become.

For example, many people most developed nations have waiting lists for medical care, which is why we have, somehow, a better system despite being one where people can't even afford seeing a doctor..
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The problem is that people don't like to be lectured to. You've got to find another way to reach them.
 
B-Dubs said:
The problem is that people don't like to be lectured to. You've got to find another way to reach them.
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That only goes so far. Anecdotally, and fairly enough this is a high level topic so it and my speaking abilities can perhaps be a negative role here, but people don't get the illusion of free will when I speak to others on the topic in person. Even with reason, they'll just combat with illusory norms to justify their stance. Making with attempts at being "at level" with the other, that's grounds for making the claim of equal worthiness to views, which is absolutely not fucking true at all, especially of this example. This is especially so when it comes to social norms and ideas, for we tend to assume our social symbolisms are innate and objective. Almost all debates on topics have to deal with unscrewing that problem first, and that's a damn fine mess to work with.

To make a better example, look at the minimum wage model and how people complain the "lowly" McDonalds worker is getting $15 an hour. They will use their views - that such a position is "less than" and "unworthy" - to actually fight for similar aspects of systemic disempowerment to happen to that person as well, because they need someone worse off than themselves to feel "well off" in comparison. But using reason to show this usually amounts to "well, I deserve it first!" or "well, that job just isn't worth living off of" which even people on GAF are perfect offenders of. Do you see how it could be spun? Sometimes you have to outright confront people on their bullshit, and the average American, by and large, believes in a super size portion of bullshit. That doesn't come from looking at the other as an equal as they naturally are, but being confrontational to the ideas, which are very clearly inferior and unaccountable.

Sometimes you have to be assertive to point to things, and that sometimes is done by acting with a presence that evokes assuredness, and for politics that is often by acting as if you're yelling at someone. Otherwise you come off as "weak" and "unsure". And as I said before, Brooklynites are very bad at this because when we usually argue, it sounds like we're going to punch you in the face. I often joke to people that people in New York typically greet one another by saying "go fuck yourself" because we're a very hostile bunch, in a sense.
 
Foffy said:
That only goes so far. Anecdotally, and fairly enough this is a high level topic so it and my speaking abilities can perhaps be a negative role here, but people don't get the illusion of free will when I speak to others on the topic in person. Even with reason, they'll just combat with illusory norms to justify their stance. Making with attempts at being "at level" with the other, that's grounds for making the claim of equal worthiness to views, which is absolutely not fucking true at all, especially of this example. This is especially so when it comes to social norms and ideas, for we tend to assume our social symbolisms are innate and objective. Almost all debates on topics have to deal with unscrewing that problem first, and that's a damn fine mess to work with.

To make a better example, look at the minimum wage model and how people complain the "lowly" McDonalds worker is getting $15 an hour. They will use their views - that such a position is "less than" and "unworthy" - to actually fight for similar aspects of systemic disempowerment to happen to that person as well, because they need someone worse off than themselves to feel "well off" in comparison. But using reason to show this usually amounts to "well, I deserve it first!" or "well, that job just isn't worth living off of" which even people on GAF are perfect offenders of. Do you see how it could be spun? Sometimes you have to outright confront people on their bullshit, and the average American, by and large, believes in a super size portion of bullshit. That doesn't come from looking at the other as an equal as they naturally are, but being confrontational to the ideas, which are very clearly inferior and unaccountable.

Sometimes you have to be assertive to point to things, and that sometimes is done by acting with a presence that evokes assuredness, and for politics that is often by acting as if you're yelling at someone. Otherwise you come off as "weak" and "unsure". And as I said before, Brooklynites are very bad at this because when we usually argue, it sounds like we're going to punch you in the face.
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There's ways to be forcefull without coming off as lecturing. Remember campaign Obama? Passionate and forceful as fuck, but never felt like he was giving a lecture. People don't like to be talked down to, even when they're wrong. You have to talk to them as people.
 
B-Dubs said:
There's ways to be forcefull without coming off as lecturing. Remember campaign Obama? Passionate and forceful as fuck, but never felt like he was giving a lecture.
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True, but he was also a powerful orator. That skill plays a role, and most don't have it. Most people in politics don't have it. Hillary doesn't have it. Bernie obviously doesn't, either.
 
Foffy said:
True, but he was also a powerful orator. That skill plays a role, and most don't have it. Most people in politics don't have it. Hillary doesn't have it. Bernie obviously doesn't, either.
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That's true. In my experience the best way to convince people you're right isn't to lecture them though, it's to talk to them as people. Even if they're horribly wrong.
 
ItIsOkBro said:
This was a good debate and I'm sad that the Republican circus debates get more attention and more viewers and more discussion and a better OT.
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That hurts man. Mods told me to keep it simple.

Just got home from the debate. Cliff notes of my experience:
  • The instructions said not to bring cellphones so I left mine in my car, only to find out inside cellphones were allowed; I was pretty peeved for a while but just framed it as allowing me to stay in the moment
  • Bernie and Hillary between breaks always spoke to each other, smiling and soft touching
  • The debate went by fast; breaks were very short of course
  • David Muir is very handsome in person
  • Even though seating was mostly random, I apparently picked a spot where all the Hillary supporters were; Bernie clapping was behind me
  • Audience did not like O'Malley's generation difference comment

I don't know who won, but O'Malley definitely came in last for me. Too aggressive even for the position he's in (called the data breach talk bickering, when it wasn't at all) and the generation comment was in bad taste.

EDIT: I don't know if it was on the telecast, but we had fucking 10 people speak before we started the debate, including DWS (bleh).
 
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