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[Sephzilla]

How about we critique the actual movie rather than a gif, that bit is like half a second on loop

I love how people just try to hand wave this away saying "it's only a second" like that somehow makes this moment any less stupid.

Obi-Wan vs Anakin in Episode 3 is basically the prequels in a nutshell. It's a fight that's entirely about flash and visual eye candy in order to mask the fact that there's almost no emotional investment in the conflict. It's Lucas devolving into a 5 year old playing with action figures going "first they start fighting in this room and then they're swinging on ropes fighting each other and then they're fighting on robots in the lava".

Why didn't the Empire carpet bomb the rebel base on Hoth with Tie Bombers instead of sending slow ass AT-ATs? Because drama.

So much of Star Wars doesn't hold up if you try to "but why didn't they..." it. Movies in general, actually.

Because there was a giant shield around the rebel base that required a ground force to go in first. The movie sort of makes a big deal about one of the AT-ATs going after it.

 

[Davey Cakes]

Are the lightsaber fights good or not?

If they are bad, I'll wait for bluray to watch this.

They were perfect.

 

[Toxi]

Are the lightsaber fights good or not?

If they are bad, I'll wait for bluray to watch this.

The last lightsaber battle is absolutely amazing and among the best ever done for Star Wars, with lots of cool touches involving the environment.

 

[Ophelion]

Given the whole notion for JJ taking on this whole project was "Who is Luke Skywalker" and given how much he has been through (Just what we know of) I do not think it will be as simple as "Luke will train her"

I think his arc will be alot darker.

Oh yeah, I wouldn't even be surprised if Luke's first words to her were something closer to, "Get off this planet, you idiot. And get that haunted lightsaber out of my face." Rather than being all like, "Come right this way, my child, let me show you the ways of the force!"

I think after Kylo, he's not exactly in the market for students, if you know what I mean.

 

[Jarmel]

I just felt like the extent that Force Powers were used, not only in the series in general, but completely self-contained in TFA would make it implausible that Finn could take Kylo Ren on in lightsaber combat for any amount of time at all if Finn had no ability to use the force's precognition ability.

There's stuff in the film that hints toward him being Force Sensitive and stuff that doesn't. It's just in this ambiguous state for the time being where it's better to assume that Finn isn't until proven otherwise.

Stuff like Kylo's interest in Finn would make more sense if he picked up that Finn was 'awakening' but again the film doesn't either heavily state or confirm either way.

 

[Syf]

Are the lightsaber fights good or not?

If they are bad, I'll wait for bluray to watch this.

My favorite of the saga (talking just the fights and not the emotion behind them, where Luke/Vader would still win). The dancing of the prequels is long gone. These fights feel brutal and have weight.

 

[Pandy]

If one really wants to play mental gymnastics with the PT's saber fights, you could reason that at the time of the Republic the primary threat against Jedi peacekeepers was blaster fire from multiple angles. So they trained primarily in lightsaber forms that emphasized deflection meaning they had very active sword styles.

By the time of the OT the biggest threat to a saber user is another saber user so they used more direct attacks with thrusts and parries.

That sounds plausible right..?

In the PT all combatants have had extensive training in both the force and lightsabre use. It would be daft for them to be as slow as in the OT.

OT lightsabre fights involve an old man, a slighty less old half-man half-machine, and a young man who hasn't had any significant combat training (even by ROTJ Luke's had little practical experience compared to the PT Jedi).

The EP7 fight was between inexperienced/wounded fighters, and so the sloppy nature of it makes sense, and puts it closer in style to the OT. (It seemed daft that Ren didn't wreck shit up without much trouble given how familiar he was with a lightsabre, especially against Finn, but maybe when they actually fill in his backstory properly it'll make more sense.)

EDIT:

The last lightsaber battle is absolutely amazing and among the best ever done for Star Wars, with lots of cool touches involving the environment.

I prefer the crazy fast combat of the PT fights, but from an effects perspective the forest fight was indeed brilliant.

 

[WJD]

Found a lot of the discussion in here a bit weird at first - I came out of my showing last night (which I really, really enjoyed for what it's worth) almost convinced that Rey and Ren were brother and sister, then checked this thread and found most of the arguments centring around the question of Rey's lineage.

I think my interpretation was mostly based on the (seemingly) obvious Han-is-like-a-father-figure-oh-wait-he's-actually-my-father cues, plus Ren's anger at the mention of "a girl", and the way they're both positioned in all the marketing material. Just seemed like the narrative was quite explicitly setting them both up as different sides of the same Solo-shaped coin.

Is there something crucial I'm missing that quashes this line of thinking, other than it being a bit of a lame reveal?

 

[TheOctodad]

Yeah, Black Series ain't bad. Here is mine. But I also have the Hot Toy preordered.

I hate you If my wife wasn't in school full-time I would blow my wad on action figures from these right now. Unfortunately, not gonna happen.

Black series it is for me.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Are the lightsaber fights good or not?

If they are bad, I'll wait for bluray to watch this.

My opinion: they were the best lightsaber fights in the entire series. A nice mix between Luke selling the lightsaber like it weighs 30 pounds and crazy flippy stuff from the prequels.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

I hope they don't shat up the sequels with rainbow lightsabers. Keep them blue and red. No need for fucking yellow and purple. Green is allowed as an exception, but only for Luke.

I don't know why but for Rey's own saber I instantly picture her with a yellow double-bladed saber.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

Seeing it as a kid was one thing. The hero beating the villian because of the love he has for his sister. It's inspiring.

Except for when you're old enough to understand that this is Luke very nearly losing, and giving Palpatine exactly what he wants. That emotion you're seeing is anger and hate.

Not saying you shouldn't see it that way...you should. The whole trilogy built up to Luke beating Vader. It's just that it's very, very close.

Yeah I think its so much more powerful when your an adult because it becomes so tragic. Luke fighting his father and not wanting to. Vader fighting his son and not wanting to. Even the music playing during their battle is somber. Its a very emotional scene

 

[Jarmel]

He won't outdo Rey. It's Rey's story. She is the lead.

This film was very much Finn's story as much as it was Rey's, if not moreso. Finn had a much stronger connection to Ren for example than Rey did.

 

[-griffy-]

I thought every creature in the film, be they a costume, prosthetic, CGI, or some combination thereof was incredible aside from Snoke (I thought Maz was great). Crappy design, even worse CGI.

Snoke is definitely the outlier in the film, but the reveal of him being a giant hologram almost makes me think there's a Wizard of Oz situation going on with him. Like with Kylo and his de-masking reveal, Snoke is just trying really hard to be this big, imposing presence to lord over Kylo and the First Order, but he's really some frail figure. Can't really know if that's the case until we see more about him though.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

I love how people just try to hand wave this away saying "it's only a second" like that somehow makes this moment any less stupid.

Obi-Wan vs Anakin in Episode 3 is basically the prequels in a nutshell. It's a fight that's entirely about flash and visual eye candy in order to mask the fact that there's almost no emotional investment in the conflict. It's Lucas devolving into a 5 year old playing with action figures going "first they start fighting in this room and then they're swinging on ropes fighting each other and then they're fighting on robots in the lava".

It is overly flashy and long but it's basically the only fight in the prequels since the climax of the Darth Maul battle that has any emotional investment. I have to disagree with you there.

But there's no point arguing it really, I completely agree that the prequel fights are dumb and over the top. I just really don't take any issue with that one particular moment, its blown way out of proportion by most people because they've only seen that gif in recent years rather than the actual fight.

There are way worse examples of overzealous choreography in that fight alone, let alone pretty much every other lightsaber battle in the PT.

 

[Mr Cola]

I thought the fight was functional and grounded but not particularly memorable outside of Rey picking up the lightsaber, ive never been a huge fan of JJ's fight choreography

 

[thecouncil]

I think they gave them both very much equal billing.

...but not equal screen time.

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

I really liked how Kylo Ren's lightsaber seemed to be unfocused and rather slapdash.

Like he didn't really know how to properly construct a lightsaber so it's not really working properly.

 

[JB1981]

Found a lot of the discussion in here a bit weird at first - I came out of my showing last night (which I really, really enjoyed for what it's worth) almost convinced that Rey and Ren were brother and sister, then checked this thread and found most of the arguments centring around the question of Rey's lineage.

I think my interpretation was mostly based on the (seemingly) obvious Han-is-like-a-father-figure-oh-wait-he's-actually-my-father cues, plus Ren's anger at the mention of "a girl", and the way they're both positioned in all the marketing material. Just seemed like the narrative was quite explicitly setting them both up as different sides of the same Solo-shaped coin.

Is there something crucial I'm missing that quashes this line of thinking, other than it being a bit of a lame reveal?

I guess mostly that Han and Leia mention never mention a thing to her about it and it would be pretty fucked up of them to continue that lie now seeing that she is starting to live her life around them.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I was also disappointed Leia apparently never bothered to learn any Force abilities. Like apparelty at some point a conversation occurred where Luke tells her "you can move shit with your mind" and she's like "not interested that's dumb."

...but not equal screen time.

Well that's completely impossible from a practical standpoint but they were both very much the stars of the film. I don't really think its a debatable point that Finn and Rey were the co-leads.

I really liked how Kylo Ren's lightsaber seemed to be unfocused and rather slapdash.

Like he didn't really know how to properly construct a lightsaber so it's not really working properly.

I found it a little jarring how Kylo Ren randomly turned into a bumbling Sith-wannabe an hour into the movie. I totally get that failing to explain any of Kylo Ren's motivations was an intentional draw to sequels, but still, it was kind of random that his competence level went down the drain half way through.

 

[MMarston]

I really liked how Kylo Ren's lightsaber seemed to be unfocused and rather slapdash.

Like he didn't really know how to properly construct a lightsaber so it's not really working properly.

I'm beginning to realize that half the reason I like the character is due to schadenfreude

 

[LAUGHTREY]

Why didn't the Empire carpet bomb the rebel base on Hoth with Tie Bombers instead of sending slow ass AT-ATs? Because drama.

So much of Star Wars doesn't hold up if you try to "but why didn't they..." it. Movies in general, actually.

They...they had a shield generator and a gigantic anti-aircraft ion cannon.

 

[Sephzilla]

I really liked how Kylo Ren's lightsaber seemed to be unfocused and rather slapdash.

Like he didn't really know how to properly construct a lightsaber so it's not really working properly.

Kylo's lightsaber, like his training, is apparently incomplete. Like his character, it looks unstable.

 

[Monocle]

Are the lightsaber fights good or not?

If they are bad, I'll wait for bluray to watch this.

They're great. Much more like the OT than the PT fights, where the sabers have a real sense of weight. Only, well, faster and more intense. Definitely better than the prequels' outrageously flashy battles that don't really give you the sense of people fighting for their lives.

 

[OricWindstar]

And....?

Haha, touche.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

It is overly flashy and long but it's basically the only fight in the prequels since the climax of the Darth Maul battle that has any emotional investment. I have to disagree with you there.

But there's no point arguing it really, I completely agree that the prequel fights are dumb and over the top. I just really don't take any issue with that one particular moment, its blown way out of proportion by most people because they've only seen that gif in recent years rather than the actual fight.

There are way worse examples of overzealous choreography in that fight alone, let alone pretty much every other lightsaber battle in the PT.

There's one moment where they pretend to grapple and one guy flips the other. It's not a fight, it's sparring.

 

[LegendofLex]

A lot of these are stretches ("Force user and droid meet up with someone who professes to be able to take them to Rebel base" is not a parallel) or are just plain wrong (Han didn't sacrifice himself, Vader didn't leave the ending battle wounded, Luke didn't recoil from his destiny like Daisy does - he starts training on the Falcon asap).

1) Han walked up to his son and allowed himself to die without any attempt at resistance with the hope that his son would make the right decision. That's a straight-up sacrifice.

2) The last time we see Vader in ANH, his ship is damaged and he's retreating from the destroyed Death Star.

3) So, what, when Luke said "I'm not going to Alderaan" we're supposed to believe what he really meant was "I'm going to Alderaan, let me pack"?

 

[thecouncil]

I guess mostly that Han and Leia mention never mention a thing to her about it and it would be pretty fucked up of them to continue that lie now seeing that she is starting to live her life around them.

And, in private, they also never talk about her. Kind of weird if it's their daughter...

 

[Ragnorok64]

Why didn't the Empire carpet bomb the rebel base on Hoth with Tie Bombers instead of sending slow ass AT-ATs? Because drama.

So much of Star Wars doesn't hold up if you try to "but why didn't they..." it. Movies in general, actually.

Does no one remember that the Rebels had shield generators that specifically prevented an orbital bombardment?

 

[RyanW]

To the people debating the lightsaber duels, I recommend watching the "Evolution of the Lightsaber Duel" that played on ESPN recently. Short and pretty cool to watch.

 

[Real Hero]

The fight reminded me of the fight in Empire just before Vader starts chucking stuff at Luke and Vader is walking towards the screen easily overpowering Luke. The Kylo/Finn fight had the same feel to it.

 

[SuperStiltzkin]

Are the lightsaber fights good or not?

If they are bad, I'll wait for bluray to watch this.

Lightsaber fights are amazing. I'd rank the lightsaber fights in TFA second best in the series after Luke Vs Vader in RotJ. The fights have more weight to them compared to the prequels and each time the sabers clash, you really feel it. Kylo Ren's faux saber is goddamn loud and scary.

 

[Maedhros]

My opinion: they were the best lightsaber fights in the entire series. A nice mix between Luke selling the lightsaber like it weighs 30 pounds and crazy flippy stuff from the prequels.

Thanks for the answers guys. This guy convinced me.

I actually like the fights from the prequels more than the stupid original ones (mostly because of the acting). So if it's a mix of both, I'll definitely see it.

 

[Ishida]

Thanks for the answers guys. This guy convinced me.

I actually like the fights from the prequels more than the stupid original ones (mostly because of the acting). So if it's a mix of both, I'll definitely see it.

I absolutely LOVE the fights in the prequels. And I LOVED the one in Episode VII. So I guess you will love it too.

 

[Sephzilla]

The fights in Episode 7 are the best lightsaber fights in the franchise that aren't Luke vs Vader.

1) Vader/Luke ROTJ
2) Vader/Luke ESB
3) Finn/Rey vs Kylo Ren TFA
4) Maul vs Obi-Won/Qui-Gon TPM
5) Obi-Wan vs Anakin ROTS
6) Obi-Wan vs Grevious ROTS
7) Obi-Wan vs Vader ANH
8) Obi-Wan/Anakin vs Dooku AOTC
9) Yoda vs Dooku AOTC
10) Yoda vs Palpatine ROTS

Honorable mention: Finn vs FN-B4D455 (since it's not a lightsaber vs lightsaber fight I didn't include it)

 

[Solo]

The lightsaber fights are definitely lifted from the OT, just with some modern finesse and intensity thrown in. They are great.

 

[Carbonox]

The fights in Episode 7 are the best lightsaber fights in the franchise that aren't Luke vs Vader.

Easily by a country mile. I really enjoy the fights in TFA.

 

[Monocle]

My opinion: they were the best lightsaber fights in the entire series. A nice mix between Luke selling the lightsaber like it weighs 30 pounds and crazy flippy stuff from the prequels.

Yep, that's a good way to summarize them.

 

[WJD]

I guess mostly that Han and Leia mention never mention a thing to her about it and it would be pretty fucked up of them to continue that lie now seeing that she is starting to live her life around them.

Yeah, that makes sense. Part of my still thinks Leia revealing some sort of "we had to keep this secret for your own sake" justification isn't completely beyond the realms of possibility.

Again, I hope that's not the case.

 

[Jarmel]

My opinion: they were the best lightsaber fights in the entire series. A nice mix between Luke selling the lightsaber like it weighs 30 pounds and crazy flippy stuff from the prequels.

I totally missed this. lol what

This didn't touch either ESB or RotJ.

 

[CoolOff]

I don't know why but for Rey's own saber I instantly picture her with a yellow double-bladed saber.

Needs to happen.

 

[Arkeband]

I didn't like Maz much either, I admit. She was acceptable.

I just have this thing against full-CGI characters. They look unnatural even when done well.

For a movie filled to the brim with lively practical effects and designs, it was just weird that they went with Snoke as he appears in the film.

I'm actually imagining Snoke is very short, like an Asshole Yoda.

That would make his unnecessarily large hologram kind of comedic, but the fact is they need to feature this guy in a future movie as a non-hologram. Are they really going to have a fully CGI dude fight people? It was OK for us when Yoda did it, or something inhuman like Grievous, but I dunno...

 

[Ragnorok64]

In the PT all combatants have had extensive training in both the force and lightsabre use. It would be daft for them to be as slow as in the OT.

OT lightsabre fights involve an old man, a slighty less old half-man half-machine, and a young man who hasn't had any significant combat training (even by ROTJ Luke's had little practical experience compared to the PT Jedi).

The EP7 fight was between inexperienced/wounded fighters, and so the sloppy nature of it makes sense, and puts it closer in style to the OT. (It seemed daft that Ren didn't wreck shit up without much trouble given how familiar he was with a lightsabre, especially against Finn, but maybe when they actually fill in his backstory properly it'll make more sense.)

EDIT:

I prefer the crazy fast combat of the PT fights, but from an effects perspective the forest fight was indeed brilliant.

You know after writing that post I remembered that I didn't just pull that reasoning out if nowhere. It was the legit official explanation for a while. Not sure if the different lightsaber forms survived the EU nuking but most PT Jedi did train in a more blaster defensive form. While someone like Dooku actually focused on a more saber to saber combat oriented style. I can't remember what all the 7(?) forms specialized in anymore.

 

[ReAxion]

Does no one remember that the Rebels had shield generators that specifically prevented an orbital bombardment?

It's also kind of hard to see the lights & engines going dark on the star destroyer after it gets hit by the ion cannon because it's falling out of frame as the shot tracks the escaping rebel transport.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

This shit right here.

Versus this:

 

[Solo]

The ROTJ lightsaber duel between Vader and Luke will never be topped though. How could it? They'll never have that emotional heft to a final duel again. Or at least, not that I can fathom.

 

[Monocle]

I totally missed this. lol what

This didn't touch either ESB or RotJ.

The ESB fights were memorable more for their drama than the choreography. TFA delivers both in spades, without actually feeling choreographed.

 

[shortsFortallPeople]

The fights in Episode 7 are the best lightsaber fights in the franchise that aren't Luke vs Vader.

Even though im not big on the prequels, there's more tension in the Darth Maul fight than anything in VII.

Just that one scene alone with Maul pacing back and worth while Qui-Gon kneels to mediate makes watching that dreadful thing a bit easier to do.

I really liked Rey getting the lightsaber and it felt like such a badass moment but I have major issues with her force usage as it stands. I hope the next couple of films details her having had some sort of light jedi training before Luke exiled himself because otherwise it's going to kinda bother me. The fight itself felt a bit hard to follow but that might have been because the screen was kinda dark in my theater

 

[Jarmel]

The ESB fights were memorable more for their drama than the choreography. TFA delivers both in spades.

WHAT?

The choreography in the ESB fight was top tier. What the hell.

 

[Ether_Snake]

There is no way in hell that Rey is Leia/Han's daughter. Come on.