[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #2) - One Thumb Up
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The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Rey being Luke from A New Hope (and only ANH, by the time of Empire its very much about him getting his ass kicked) is...not a great standard to hold characters in 2015 to. Yes, I suppose you can argue that they're hewing so close to ANH in every respect that having similar protagonists who everything works out for is just more homage, but Luke is not a particularly great character in that movie either and its especially jarring when juxtaposed right next to Finn and Kylo Ren
I really think the legit criticisms leveled at TFA will be taken seriously. I wouldn't be surprised if Snoke gets an upgrade as well.
The characters were the stand outs of TFA so I don't think a shift in style will be jarring or unwelcome.
minimumhippo
Member
Yeah I think this was it and, considering this, I'm pleasantly surprised at the performance he gave.
Randolph Freelander
Member
I'm totally going to have to google "Mary Sue," aren't I.
Bingo. We already had a trilogy where the bad guys were at the height of their power and Luke had to train up to beat them.
This time we'll see both characters developing at the same time. Like rivals in Pokémon
I mostly meant, JJ's visual design, and his style of editting. It's pretty unique and distinguishable.
Discotheque
Banned
This is such a Gary Stu post
(Yes that term is actually real, dear God these trope terms are terrible)
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Its just a term for a character who is so perfect and awesome at everything that they're assumed to be designed as nothing more than an audience insert. Rey isn't a Mary Sue I don't think, I think she's just underdeveloped, and I'm blaming JJ Abrams specifically for this, because its not that she's underdeveloped due to them not knowing how (again, see Finn and Kylo Ren who are already two of the better characters in the entire film series) but because she was clearly held back on so that her story could be the "mystery" of the next one or two films
Cool, here's to keeping hope alive then.
shortsFortallPeople
Banned
I give them the benefit of the doubt regarding Rey's sudden full on Jedi force shenanigans. They're obviously heavily hinting at her being dropped off at jakku playing a big role and we don't know if she was trained before then and had her memory wiped for her own protection.
This is the problem with TFA that ANH and TPM didn't have: there's backstory here that isn't fleshed out because it's part of a trilogy from the get-go. ANH was a one off thing that could've stood on its own so it didn't have these issues and TPM was a prequel to which we knew what the end game was. No one sat around scratching their head at story details because we knew that all of it was a build up to anakin breaking bad.
With TFA, there are bits and pieces we won't get for another 2-4 years. So now we have to sit here complaining that Rey is OP out of nowhere -a legit criticism- but it could very well be that it's all answered in the next film or two.
This is the problem with TFA that ANH and TPM didn't have: there's backstory here that isn't fleshed out because it's part of a trilogy from the get-go. ANH was a one off thing that could've stood on its own so it didn't have these issues and TPM was a prequel to which we knew what the end game was. No one sat around scratching their head at story details because we knew that all of it was a build up to anakin breaking bad.
With TFA, there are bits and pieces we won't get for another 2-4 years. So now we have to sit here complaining that Rey is OP out of nowhere -a legit criticism- but it could very well be that it's all answered in the next film or two.
Nostremitus
Member
Maz Kanata in a Jedi robe?
OricWindstar
Member
...Maz Kanata?
She's seen that little shit Anakin's eyes
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
kopitarrulez_11
Member
"You got any family or boyfriend.
You got a boyfriend."
Hahahahah if that wasn't ad-libbed I'd be shocked he was great when he was Harrison Ford
Monocle
Member
And all of that will no doubt resonate even better with future events, the more Kylo is developed in Ep. 8 and 9. He's clearly a work in progress in TFA. It's going to be interesting to see where his character goes from here.
Yep.Bingo. We already had a trilogy where the bad guys were at the height of their power and Luke had to train up to beat them.
This time we'll see both characters developing at the same time. Like rivals in Pokémon
How do we feel the hardening of Kylo Ren will play out in VIII?. I expect Snoke will compelete his training, and his arc will end with him thrashing Rey and, possibly, him killing Luke and/or Snoke.
It's been an interesting argument to see, though I do vehemently disagree with it. At this point I've put a few dozen posts and probably a few thousand words rebutting it, so won't regurgitate it here, other than to note how very similar her power curve was to Luke's, and the importance of their different backgrounds playing into it (farmer vs. scavenger/survivor).I more or less agree with you on the "argue the merits, not trying to claim the person is a bad dude". The Mary Sue argument gets used a lot, and the number one example (and easily the most cited) is actually a male character - Wesley Crusher from Star Trek. While as there are probably angry sexists bitching about Rey - the argument that she is being poorly served by not getting a full journey (because she's Mary Sue-ish) is a legitimate one. I actually think it's unfair to Rey to start so powerful, because it makes the (probable) ass kicking coming in Episode VIII even wonkier. That said; a lot of it comes down to her background. If they have her past be that she was a student of Luke at some point and that her powers were hidden after the Knights of Ren attack to protect her, then in retrospect she's fine IMO.
Heck, I really like Rey and I didn't like Furiosa at all; but I suspect that Furiosa isn't designed to appeal to me (minority male), so it doesn't really matter if I like her or not.Rey works much better as an every-person character then Furiosa. I personally think Finn does it better, but I think that's Finn's specific point - to be the POV character / normal person going "WTF IS THIS CRAZYPANTS SHENANIGANS" versus Rey being the super powered hero / main protagonist. One of the things the prequels lacked was that sense of humor and character everyone could relate to as a normal person.
It was really funny and that part of the scene really works because of the way Rey kept popping up and down.
Finn really shines when he's bouncing off other characters. Boyega just does it so effortlessly, it seems like.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue
Mwahaha. TVTropes links for the win.
Note; my use of the term Mary Sue falls under one of the variations of its usage. I could see a pretty strong argument that the genre "sci-fi fantasy" more or less makes it immune in most respects. Reading TVTropes; I'll probably switch to using as idealized character / power fantasy moreso than anything. I also wonder whether the major cuts to the movie exacerbate the feeling many times over (perhaps sections about Rey using her force powers more and more were cut out).
Eh, different strokes for different folks. The more I read about the major cuts to the movie (hour+!) and the fact that I only had a problem with one single thing (the force persuasion) that was...99% a throwaway joke - the more I think she was just a victim of a rushed movie and that Mary Sue's probably too harsh of a term.
chicko1983
Member
She specifically says - "Im not a jedi but I know the ways of the force".
I think its more likely an idol of Snoke, when he was on the light side of the force...
My only complaint with the movie was that Kylo Ren was a bit too immature/whiny. I get that that's kind of how he's supposed to be, but I think you can convey inner turmoil/struggle without turning him into a whiny little shit with daddy issues.
I definitely liked that he was a loose cannon, though.
I definitely liked that he was a loose cannon, though.
Im willing to wait on the Mary Sue title for Rey until I see where they go from here. I like the term used earlier as her just being a "thin" character since she basically went from 0 to 100. I think it would be a interesting if they actually leaned into that in the next one. Ego tripping and shit. Could be a fun plot point if they can pull it off
Watching any interview with Boyega, and it makes total sense. Dude is charismatic as hell.
Ragnorok64
Member
This thread is just going in circles as more people see the movie and come in with the same reactions and then the same refutations and so on and so forth. Lets talk about this amazing BB-8 toy and how I wish I had an extra $150 laying around to buy one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSxTIcD8D58
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSxTIcD8D58
Just incidentally, I got the idea that Maz was at some point a Jedi but has been around so long that she has long since taken her own path.
The Jedi aren't perfect or the paragons of purity; They're overly dogmatic and flawed as you might imagine. A wise independent thinker would probably eventually drift away from them.
Nostremitus
Member
Well didn't Lucas refer to Yoda as an intergalactic warrior instead of a Jedi when the prequels came out?
CloudyTuba
Member
Fantastic, thank you. Ive listened to the OST twice now and was disappointed that it was missing some bits. Glad I can catch a few here.
dancrane212
Member
Loved the movie. Worth all the pain of self-censoring my internet for the past 18 months to satisfy a media blackout.
Felt like every 10 minutes there was something that got me choking up. Really amazing stuff.
Felt like every 10 minutes there was something that got me choking up. Really amazing stuff.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
This thread is just going in circles as more people see the movie and come in with the same reactions and then the same refutations and so on and so forth. Lets talk about this amazing BB-8 toy and how I wish I had an extra $150 laying around to buy one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSxTIcD8D58
I got to hang out with the folks who designed these and drive them around like a warehouse floor and send it off of jumps and stuff, its ridiculously fun to control
Finn and Rey are undeniably adorable together, but she's going to be busy and Finn is probably going hang around the Resistance for a hile longer, and that is why we need more Finn and Poe bromance.
If it doesn't come with the flipping the bird/fire threat feature I'll pass!
Bog
Junior Ace
With Han out of the way, I get the feeling Bo and Chewie will finally be able to partner up and have their own space adventures.
"If Han ever dies, you give Bo a call. I already have the astronaut outfit."
BigJonsson
Member
chicko1983
Member
"she has owned this wateringhole for over a thousand years", so if she was a jedi, it was a long, long time ago.
I honestly just want Ren to straight up off him in the next one."Student surpass the teacher" type thing but like worse
Thawn ain't canon -- But remember those anti-force animals he kept around him? I forget what they're called, but he kept with him these creatures that would nullify the force in an area around them. I think those would be a cool thing to have in an SW movie (as long as it's not overly relied on for plot points).
The Shadow
Member
I really wonder if he'll be force sensitive too, considering he didn't do all that bad with the saber given his first and second time using it, plus his change of heart at killing the villagers at the beginning unlike the rest of the stormtrooper horde.
I mean, he grew up into service and somehow still knew it was wrong.
I have a sneaking suspicion Benicio Del Toro's character will be the endgame villain. I have no reason to suspect this other than my gut.
Randolph Freelander
Member
Del Toro can't fit into a Jar Jar suit.
Bobba at least caught Han
nephilimdj
Member
Heh, will 9 lead right into 10 or will there be another time jump
I kinda hope 9 has ren finding lukes other students near the end then a jump, I find it weird everyone wants this ren vs kylo 1on1 thing.
I mean kylo most likely will be pikachu with lightning next time we see him, nice to have some teamwork.
Plasticine
Member
At least Boba Fett managed to look cool for a movie. Phasma couldn't even achieve that.
OricWindstar
Member
Yo guys, made a quick edit of The Ways of The Force to include the Burning Homestead callback when Rey catches the lightsaber. I'm not much of a producer and I'm going off memory alone, so it's not perfect, but hopefully it can hold us over until we get something more official.
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