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[BigJonsson]

I wonder if Leia uses the force in Ep 8 lol

 

[DrForester]

I wonder if Leia uses the force in Ep 8 lol

I liked how she knew when Han was killed. Was a nice touch.

 

[Divvy]

No, it's a continuing thing through the film. First she won't leave Jakku, then she won't accept the light saber or the force, she continuously brings up wanting to get home. It's not until she realizes Finn and Han came back for her, and seeing them get fucked up by Kylo Ren that she fully accepts her fate.

Yeah but in all those situations, she was forced into leaving by forces out of her control. She only really was given an option at Maw's and promptly chose to leave until the First Order showed up.

 

[minimumhippo]

I highly doubt that. It would do his character a disservice to actually let him become what he wants. Especially when it is so misguided.

I actually really hope you're right. My feeling now is that they will create this trilogy in a very safe way, but what I really want is for the creators to throw us a curveball and completely destroy our expectations.

 

[Randolph Freelander]

I wonder if Leia uses the force in Ep 8 lol

She's totally busting out a lightsaber by 9. It will be the reverse-Palpatine moment. Ren will come for her, but she'll be prepared.

 

[CreepingFear]

She's totally busting out a lightsaber by 9. It will be the reverse-Palpatine moment. Ren will come for her, but she'll be prepared.

I really want a scene with Leia and Ren. Does he hate mommy as much as daddy?

 

[JB1981]

Here's something I've suspected for awhile but having watched the film twice I think more might be the case. This awakening in the force I don't believe is centered only around Rey. But around many individuals throughout the galaxy Finn and Poe included. I'm reminded of a few episodes of the Legend a Kora I saw some months ago and in that series there came a point where people who couldn't bend all of sudden could.

I keep imagining this migration of force sensitives to Luke at the temple. Would be awesome.

 

[zeemumu]

I really want a scene with Leia and Ren. Does he hate mommy as much as daddy?

At this point I'm not entirely sure if he hates them so much as he think they're holding him back.

 

[Steel]

The first time I saw TFA and Kylo took off his helmet, there was this delicious silence where you could tell the audience knew something had shifted and was trying to process how to react. From that point on, he spends most of the film unmasked and his dialogue gets a lot more personal. What a great way to add real complexity a character who easily could have been another Darth Maul.

"As you wish master. Something something revenge. *lightsaber noises*"

Darth Maul was pretty bad too. Something more like Dooku was more interesting without going full wimp. Or, better yet, take any of the Sith in KOTOR 2 other than Nihilius.

 

[CreepingFear]

At this point I'm not entirely sure if he hates them so much as he think they're holding him back.

He did tell Rey that Han would disappoint her as a father.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I keep thinking of random little things I want to talk about.

Like Kylo's interrogation of Rey. When he first starts mind probing her, he says something along the lines of, "You see an ocean. I see the island." When I first saw the film, I thought that was a tie in to the later reveal of where Luke has been hiding. But beyond that I think it also works as a metaphor for isolation (Kylo) and possibility (Rey).

 

[The Technomancer]

Nah, Rey's got stuff going on. In many ways she's the Anti-Luke. He was all about getting off Tattooine and doing somethings but doesn't get a chance until he learns that he has this crazy newfound potential.

Rey already has potential, tons of it, but she doesn't want to go anywhere. She wants to stay put and reject her fate. Whereas Luke was all about getting away, and becoming a Jedi, Rey rejects her fate until she finally finds a surrogate family like the one she's been waiting for.

Yeah, but that was an issue for all of like, 2 minutes

No, it's a continuing thing through the film. First she won't leave Jakku, then she won't accept the light saber or the force, she continuously brings up wanting to get home. It's not until she realizes Finn and Han came back for her, and seeing them get fucked up by Kylo Ren that she fully accepts her fate.

Eh, it just feels like its the thinnest of the main three characters. Her opening scenes are great, but I feel like they were counting on that one flashback sequence when she touches the lightsaber to flesh out her character in a way that it...didn't for me. She's pulled in a few different directions as a character. I was asking myself why she cared about getting the droid to the resistance so much before realizing that its because she's such a fangirl for the OG characters and the legends of the past, but even that didn't feel like a complete throughline.

Or, put it this way: her desire to get home and her desire to aid the resistance never seem to come into conflict with each other, they just ping pong between being what she cares about at any given moment

 

[ryutaro's mama]

She's totally busting out a lightsaber by 9. It will be the reverse-Palpatine moment. Ren will come for her, but she'll be prepared.

I would pay all the money to see Carrie Fisher scream, "ULTIMATE POWAAAAAAAH!!!"

 

[aliengmr]

I believe it took Luke until the 3rd movie when he was a full fledged Jedi knight to pull mind tricks. Rey does it to a target that was actively hostile to her with no previous training or anything. It's pretty outstanding even by old EU standards.

Exactly but Luke had trouble with letting go and believing that he could do it. Rey, on the other hand, is put in to a situation where she has to defend herself from Ren's interrogation and is so determined to that she discovers that she can use the force*. Then without questioning how or why she starts to push back. The force presents it self and she uses it and gets in to Ren's head. That is all mind trick is. You could say the act of Ren interrogating her was all the training she needed. Could it have been presented in a less "wink-wink" way? Sure, but its not out of bounds.


* Like I said, all Rey did was do the very thing Yoda and Kenobi tried teach Luke. Focus, clear your mind, let go, etc.

 

[JB1981]

I actually really hope you're right. My feeling now is that they will create this trilogy in a very safe way, but what I really want is for the creators to throw us a curveball and completely destroy our expectations.

I think Rian Johnson will take the story in a new direction. This film was the safe bet. Sequels will take more chances, forge their own path.

 

[duckroll]

Probably. It felt like that's what they were pitching him as from the trailers. Maybe it's like how people were expecting a horror film in Crimson Peak.

Maybe Ren will go in reverse from emotional and frustrated force user to emotionless.

The trailer pitches were all pretty "deceptive".

- The Luke voiceover teaser made it seem like Luke (or Leia) handing his lightsaber down to Rey from father to daughter was going to be a thing. Instead her parentage isn't even touched on, and Luke only shows up at the end.

- Kylo Ren was made to seem like a badass Sith lord. He turned out to be a bad edgelord instead.

- Finn was the lightsaber dude in the trailers and it seemed like he was going to have an epic fight with Ren. Instead he's just a dude with a lightsaber who gets epic rekt'd by Ren.

 

[zeemumu]

He did tell Rey that Han would disappoint her as a father.

Yeah, but I think he assumed that they were disappointed in him so he'd be preemptively disappointed in them.

- Kylo Ren was made to seem like a badass Sith lord. He turned out to be a bad edgelord instead.

Maybe this is why I have a problem with him taking off the helmet. I was expecting Maul with more screentime and legitimate motivations and I got Anakin with good acting and writing.

 

[Alcoremortis]

I really want a scene with Leia and Ren. Does he hate mommy as much as daddy?

I hope that if they do that, Leia busts out a lightsaber or alternatively just uses force powers.

 

[Mistle]

Just read about how they used both Alec Guinness and Ewan McGregor , Yoda, and Luke's screams from the end of Empire in the flashback sequence.. That's pretty awesome. Need to see the film again to catch it all.

 

[Demy]

Kylo's hair was indeed pretty luxurious in spite of being contained in that helmet. I wonder what he uses.

I asked myself this way too often while watching the film.

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

How is the 3D? I don't care for 3D and have already seen it in 2d but I am going to the 3D imax tomorrow since that's what a friend wanted. Haven't seen a 3D movie since UP.

not good in 3d in my opinion. i originally saw this in 3d and it was a bit jarring and some of the action scenes are more blurry and honestly the movie just didnt feel right in 3d. i watched it again in 2d and it was such a better movie

 

[JB1981]

The trailer pitches were all pretty "deceptive".

- The Luke voiceover teaser made it seem like Luke (or Leia) handing his lightsaber down to Rey from father to daughter was going to be a thing. Instead her parentage isn't even touched on, and Luke only shows up at the end.

- Kylo Ren was made to seem like a badass Sith lord. He turned out to be a bad edgelord instead.

- Finn was the lightsaber dude in the trailers and it seemed like he was going to have an epic fight with Ren. Instead he's just a dude with a lightsaber who gets epic rekt'd by Ren.

Yea and I was very appreciate of this approach. Also the trailers made it seem like Poe was going to double cross the rebellion.

 

[TheOctodad]

Boyega blew me away, as did Ridley and Isaac. But Boyega especially...

 

[The One and Done™]

Rey not struggling with the force is not necessarily a problem. Her not struggling with anything is a problem. I don't think she's a Mary Sue, I think she's just thin as a character, there's not much to latch onto other than "she's great at a lot of stuff"

You must have watched a different movie. She struggled with Ren in the first encounter and struggled with her initial interaction with Vaders Saber. She was a good pilot and good fighter. That doesn't make her Mary Sue or thin.

It's so obvious there is more to her than what we have seen. The same with all the characters. I think a lot of people are just butthurt that she can use the force pretty well and beat Ren. It's somehow waaaaaay to unbelievable. Like, how are people so sure? There is so much more to learn about Rey and Ren, same with Luke and Han in the originals.

People are ridiculous sometimes.

 

[GhaleonEB]

The trailer pitches were all pretty "deceptive".

- The Luke voiceover teaser made it seem like Luke (or Leia) handing his lightsaber down to Rey from father to daughter was going to be a thing. Instead her parentage isn't even touched on, and Luke only shows up at the end.

- Kylo Ren was made to seem like a badass Sith lord. He turned out to be a bad edgelord instead.

- Finn was the lightsaber dude in the trailers and it seemed like he was going to have an epic fight with Ren. Instead he's just a dude with a lightsaber who gets epic rekt'd by Ren.

They even put Finn with the saber on the poster, while Rey has her staff. It might be may favorite marketing fake out ever.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

- Finn was the lightsaber dude in the trailers and it seemed like he was going to have an epic fight with Ren. Instead he's just a dude with a lightsaber who gets epic rekt'd by Ren.

Finn with the saber screamed red herring, tho.

 

[minimumhippo]

I think Rian Johnson will take the story in a new direction. This film was the safe bet. Sequels will take more chances, forge their own path.

This is why I'm so glad they are using different directors for each episode. I appreciate what Abrams has done but someone else is needed to really push these movies forward.

 

[Brakke]

- Kylo Ren was made to seem like a badass Sith lord. He turned out to be a bad edgelord instead.

I'm at Disneyland right now and there's a whole Star Wars merch store at Downtown Disney. There are like three Kylo shirts of him looking menacing with the word FEAR on the shirt.

It doesn't help that the first thing in the movie is actually him being badass an intimidating. The edge lord / fan boy transition is definitely jarring. Easy to see why it confused people / put them off.

 

[zeemumu]

So is it true that Daniel Craig was that stormtrooper that got force persuaded?

 

[duckroll]

Finn with the saber screamed red herring, tho.

Yes, I know, but that doesn't mean the marketing wasn't trying to create a false impression!

Maybe this is why I have a problem with him taking off the helmet. I was expecting Maul with more screentime and legitimate motivations and I got Anakin with good acting and writing.

Don't you think in the long run that's good though? The movie already tried too hard to give fans "what they want" out of Star Wars, having something that is unexpected and different while still well done is something to be happy for I think.

 

[Toa TAK]

So are they going to release the full soundtrack, or is this website the only way they're going to dispense it all (even though it's missing some ques)?

 

[Brakke]

It's so obvious there is more to her than what we have seen.

But see that's like. The problem lol. There's clearly more to her but nobody knows what, so as presented she's thin.

 

[Monocle]

Didn't miss anything you're talking about. I just don't think that's interesting or really adds much to the narrative. Something subverting expectations does not always mean it's good, and in this case I feel like it actively degraded the threat that he presented, to the point where the story had to compensate with a "Gigantic super-duper deathstar" to make up for it.

He might be a more interesting character if we were shown how he got to that point, I'll give it that much.

All it changed was his image of an unstoppable badass. His powers and skills stayed the same. He was never any less of a threat to the heroes. I prefer a flawed villain with countless connections to important characters and events over a bland brute who's cool and scary but not much else.

The Starkiller Base wasn't made necessary by Kylo's character development. It has other story functions. Namely continuing Star Wars' tradition of superweapons, centralizing the bad guys, and bringing most of the major players to one place for the final act.

 

[Divvy]

I wonder if Rian will be pressured to emulate JJ's style or if he'll be allowed to go his down direction. TFA is swimming with JJ's aesthetic, and it will be weird to jump from that to a sequel that lacks it.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

So are they going to release the full soundtrack, or is this website the only way they're going to dispense it all (even though it's missing some ques)?

Abrams has said there's about a half hour that's going to be released at some point, but he never specified how.

So there's another 15 minutes somewhere we haven't gotten yet.

 

[The Technomancer]

You must have watched a different movie. She struggled with Ren in the first encounter and struggled with her initial interaction with Vaders Saber. She was a good pilot and good fighter. That doesn't make her Mary Sue or thin.

I mean, can you name a single mistake she made in the entire film? Makes all the right decisions around BB8. Makes no mistakes when it comes to piloting or mechanics. Decides to run away from the Resistance for all of about a minute and a half after the flashback freaks her out. Makes basically a flawless escape from inside the Starkiller until she meets up with the others. Beats down Ren at the end without any difficulty or injury herself. "Struggle" applies in the most technical since, insomuch as she's not One Punch Man, but nothing really seems to challenge her, which is what I think people are picking up on

 

[d1rtn4p]

I'm at Disneyland right now and there's a whole Star Wars merch store at Downtown Disney. There are like three Kylo shirts of him looking menacing with the word FEAR on the shirt.

It doesn't help that the first thing in the movie is actually him being badass an intimidating. The edge lord / fan boy transition is definitely jarring. Easy to see why it confused people / put them off.

Seeing him without his mask and listening to him talk kills any badassness about him.

 

[greatgeek]

Seeing him without his mask and listening to him talk kills any badassness about him.

Yeah, he's not a badass - not yet, anyway - that's the point.

 

[zeemumu]

Don't you think in the long run that's good though? The movie already tried too hard to give fans "what they want" out of Star Wars, having something that is unexpected and different while still well done is something to be happy for I think.

Yeah, but I'm going to be needlessly upset about being duped for a bit and I just got out of the theater a few hours ago so I might need a little time before I accept Kylo. In the long run I'll eventually accept it as not being what I expected but still a good character as long as he's well written and doesn't go kill some tusken raiders. All of them. And not just the men. The women and children.


So will Boba come back and train Rey to fight Ren like he did with Jaina in the EU?

 

[That Dude John]

They even put Finn with the saber on the poster, while Rey has her staff. It might be may favorite marketing fake out ever.

I suppose it is a fake-out on the sense of finding out who the force-user was, but he did actually use the saber more in the film even if he caught the bop on every occasion lol. I did appreciate his effort, tho. He honestly tried.

 

[kopitarrulez_11]

The first time I saw TFA and Kylo took off his helmet, there was this delicious silence where you could tell the audience knew something had shifted and was trying to process how to react. From that point on, he spends most of the film unmasked and his dialogue gets a lot more personal. What a great way to add real complexity a character who easily could have been another Darth Maul.

"As you wish master. Something something revenge. *lightsaber noises*"

Same with han dying just pure dead silence

 

[Volimar]

Just saw it. Han, nooooooo

 

[opoth]

All the accusations of Rey being a Mary Sue and "leveling up" are just disappointing. Maybe things came a little too easy to her at times but it's not really very different than it was for Luke and it was never played for cuteness like it was with Anakin in TPM. I don't think she was ever portrayed as being OP in terms of piloting/mechanics (two skills I'm sure she honed as a scavenger on Jakku) and her quick learn of Jedi technique and lightsaber combat can be chalked up to her being experienced at melee with her staff, and her likely repressed Jedi training, which was heavily hinted at in her vision.

I'd love to see a thread titled "post like its 1977 and you just saw Star Wars for the first time" I think ultimately we're living in a time when the audience itself in general is overstimulated and overexposed to the various storytelling tropes that all movies lean on from time to time and possession of that knowledge is paradoxical in terms of their enjoyment of what's going on.

In order for some of us to properly enjoy these popcorn fantasies and lose ourselves, which I think is probably the intention of the creators, maybe we need to unlearn what we have learned.

 

[minimumhippo]

Seeing him without his mask and listening to him talk kills any badassness about him.

And to me, this is such a good thing.

 

[GhaleonEB]

All it changed was his image of an unstoppable badass. His powers and skills stayed the same. He was never any less of a threat to the heroes. I prefer a flawed villain with countless connections to important characters and events over a bland brute who's cool and scary but not much else.

The Starkiller Base wasn't made necessary by Kylo's character development. It has other story functions. Namely continuing Star Wars' tradition of superweapons, centralizing the bad guys, and bringing most of the major players to one place for the final act.

Yeah. Kylo wasn't any less dangerous or powerful after we learn more about him. His helmet and outfit was meant to terrify and convey power, and he had plenty to back that up. What we didn't know until later is that he was also using the helmet to compensate for things less easily hidden - his temperament, youth and lack of conviction. All of which come into play later.

I suppose it is a fake-out on the sense of finding out who the force-user was, but he did actually use the saber more in the film even if he caught the bop on every occasion lol. I did appreciate his effort, tho. He honestly tried.

I did like that he lost badly each time. It kind of made it that much more noble, and made his terror at facing Kylo that much more real. He got beat by stormtrooper, here comes a force user. Have fun!

 

[zeemumu]

Just saw it. Han, nooooooo

I wonder if Harrison Ford asked for them to kill him like Jamie Lee Curtis did in Halloween.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

I wonder if Harrison Ford asked for them to kill him like Jamie Lee Curtis did in Halloween.

Ford wanted out by death in ROTJ, man.

 

[Ragnorok64]

Exactly but Luke had trouble with letting go and believing that he could do it. Rey, on the other hand, is put in to a situation where she has to defend herself from Ren's interrogation and is so determined to that she discovers that she can use the force*. Then without questioning how or why she starts to push back. The force presents it self and she uses it and gets in to Ren's head. That is all mind trick is. You could say the act of Ren interrogating her was all the training she needed. Could it have been presented in a less "wink-wink" way? Sure, but its not out of bounds.


* Like I said, all Rey did was do the very thing Yoda and Kenobi tried teach Luke. Focus, clear your mind, let go, etc.

Wait what? Resisting a mind probe was enough to teach her how to straight up dominate mind on a Storm Trooper later that same day? It's literally unprecedented.

 

[Cybit]

When Luke does it no body says anything, but Rey is suddenly a master jedi because she mind tricked a guard on her third try.

Its the same with people expecting Ren to VaderSuperSith 2.0 only to cry foul because they missed the point.

All Rey did that was amazing, was do the thing Yoda and Kenobi tried to beat in to Luke's head for 2 movies.

My only issue is the trooper mind control scene, because there's no reference for her to do it. That would be like Luke watching Obi-Wan do it to the stormtroopers in ANH; and then do it to stormtroopers on the Death Star later that movie. It also hurts Rey, because it shortcuts her journey to becoming a hero. She can manipulate minds, does decently with a lightsaber already (though well set up by her using a staff adeptly earlier), is a fantastic pilot, and every main protagonist already loves her off the bat (as opposed to Han snarking at Luke and Leia being unimpressed) (though her and Finn doing the mutual adoration society freakout was an awesome moment)

I agree about the trooper mind control scene. It was the only thing she did in the film where she did not have a point of reference to work from.


Was this directed at me? This isn't an angle I've argued here, because I don't find it helpful.

That said, I have found a lot of the critiques of Rey troubling. We had the MRA freak out over Furiosa over the summer, and then all this arguing about Rey with TFA. I don't think it's a coincidence that two strong female characters in returning franchises were met with resistance. In 15 years of being on GAF, I've never heard the term Mary Sue (I had to google it) and certainly never heard the kind of arguments made against Rey be leveraged against a male action lead. A large proportion, though not all, of the arguments against her I've seen have required double standards to be applied. This is not to say some critiques are not valid. Rather that folks making them need be particularly clear in doing so because they are sharing a position made by more overtly sexist viewpoints, and there's a danger of being lumped in. (Which is another reason folks should not be accusing others of being sexist, but rather argue on the merits.)

Nah, not targeting you beyond you had the closest quoteable post on the topic in general

I more or less agree with you on the "argue the merits, not trying to claim the person is a bad dude". The Mary Sue argument gets used a lot, and the number one example (and easily the most cited) is actually a male character - Wesley Crusher from Star Trek. While as there are probably angry sexists bitching about Rey - the argument that she is being poorly served by not getting a full journey (because she's Mary Sue-ish) is a legitimate one. I actually think it's unfair to Rey to start so powerful, because it makes the (probable) ass kicking coming in Episode VIII even wonkier. That said; a lot of it comes down to her background. If they have her past be that she was a student of Luke at some point and that her powers were hidden after the Knights of Ren attack to protect her, then in retrospect she's fine IMO.

Heck, I really like Rey and I didn't like Furiosa at all; but I suspect that Furiosa isn't designed to appeal to me (minority male), so it doesn't really matter if I like her or not. Rey works much better as an every-person character then Furiosa. I personally think Finn does it better, but I think that's Finn's specific point - to be the POV character / normal person going "WTF IS THIS CRAZYPANTS SHENANIGANS" versus Rey being the super powered hero / main protagonist. One of the things the prequels lacked was that sense of humor and character everyone could relate to as a normal person.

All the accusations of Rey being a Mary Sue and "leveling up" are just disappointing. Maybe things came a little too easy to her at times but it's not really very different than it was for Luke and it was never played for cuteness like it was with Anakin in TPM. I don't think she was ever portrayed as being OP in terms of piloting/mechanics (two skills I'm sure she honed as a scavenger on Jakku) and her quick learn of Jedi technique and lightsaber combat can be chalked up to her being experienced at melee with her staff, and her likely repressed Jedi training, which was heavily hinted at in her vision.

I'd love to see a thread titled "post like its 1977 and you just saw Star Wars for the first time" I think ultimately we're living in a time when the audience itself in general is overstimulated and overexposed to the various storytelling tropes that all movies lean on from time to time and possession of that knowledge is paradoxical in terms of their enjoyment of what's going on.

In order for some of us to properly enjoy these popcorn fantasies and lose ourselves, which I think is probably the intention of the creators, maybe we need to unlearn what we have learned.

This is also true. The meta analysis of entertainment has changed how we look at fandom. Part of Abrams' brilliance was to pander to the 30+ year olds rather than the kids with this movie.

 

[Par Score]

I highly doubt that. It would do his character a disservice to actually let him become what he wants. Especially when it is so misguided.

Exactly, he's a far more interesting character as a Vader-wannabe than Vader Mk.2

Depending how dark they wan't to go, his descent into trying to 'become' Vader could get pretty fucked up.

Becoming Vader checklist:

• Murder children
• Kill wife
• Have multiple limbs cut off
• Be burned alive