Star Wars has always been pulpy and archetypal. But it's always been pulpy and fun and not unsettlingly awkward where we're supposed to empathize with some creepy raper murderer man.
[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #2) - One Thumb Up
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Star Wars has always been pulpy and archetypal. But it's always been pulpy and fun and not unsettlingly awkward where we're supposed to empathize with some creepy raper murderer man.
TheOctodad
Member
People couldn't possibly disagree with you? Maybe it actually is good and. A lot of people really like it.
You are enlightened and we are all marketing sheeple?
Come on man.
Already Torn
Banned
Funnily enough in this movie you actually sympathize with the creepy murderer man, even when he murders your favorite character.
Holy crap 2 threads of spoiler discussion already?
I just saw the film earlier today and really enjoyed it. It had some deep flaws but it was an entertaining reboot of the franchise that I think largely succeeded.
After the prequels suffering from too much world building and backstory, I can understand why the filmmakers would have wanted to go in the opposite direction with this film, with little to none of it, but as a result I felt some things felt weird and didn't make much sense.
For example there's a Resistance, but the Republic still exists so it seemed weird to me for them to be called that unless the New Order has conquered significant parts of the Republic, however that wasn't mentioned.
The Han death scene felt very odd, because there's no real explanation for why Kylo Ren hates Han so much that he'd kill him. There's a huge difference between being estranged from your family and wanting to murder them. Hand waving "dark side" is not enough for me. Did I get distracted for a moment and miss some huge plot point here...?
It somewhat felt like there was a missing scene that would have explained better why Rey wanted to go find Luke. She went from wanting to go back to that Tatooine lookalike the whole film to changing her mind. I get that everyone was telling her the whole film to drop the idea, but this decision deserved a scene.
So basically if this is a reboot where this film is somewhat of a reimagining of A New Hope, does this mean that Luke is going to be Yoda in the 2nd film?
I just saw the film earlier today and really enjoyed it. It had some deep flaws but it was an entertaining reboot of the franchise that I think largely succeeded.
After the prequels suffering from too much world building and backstory, I can understand why the filmmakers would have wanted to go in the opposite direction with this film, with little to none of it, but as a result I felt some things felt weird and didn't make much sense.
For example there's a Resistance, but the Republic still exists so it seemed weird to me for them to be called that unless the New Order has conquered significant parts of the Republic, however that wasn't mentioned.
The Han death scene felt very odd, because there's no real explanation for why Kylo Ren hates Han so much that he'd kill him. There's a huge difference between being estranged from your family and wanting to murder them. Hand waving "dark side" is not enough for me. Did I get distracted for a moment and miss some huge plot point here...?
It somewhat felt like there was a missing scene that would have explained better why Rey wanted to go find Luke. She went from wanting to go back to that Tatooine lookalike the whole film to changing her mind. I get that everyone was telling her the whole film to drop the idea, but this decision deserved a scene.
So basically if this is a reboot where this film is somewhat of a reimagining of A New Hope, does this mean that Luke is going to be Yoda in the 2nd film?
What..? What makes you think the Anakin character was written to empathize with him? We were meant to hate that dude and to think he was a pathetic, arrogant, overconfident whiny beotch who constantly made terrible decisions.
I think some people do like it and will continue to like it just like they liked and still like the prequels. it just wont be as many as you think, not nearly as many as there are right now.
let the hype die down then there will be more balanced discussion of the merits of this film.
WadiumArcadium
Member
The Kylo spin is my new favourite move. I like how he almost takes Finn's head off beforehand.
Yes it is.
The same people whooping and hollering still like the films. The people critiquing it now we're critiquing it then. The films were huge, they have a large fan base, that doesn't mean anything.
The prequels had much more backlash at the time, and much less positive critic and user reviews.
IdreamofHIME
Member
Who the fuck was whooping and hollering in a cinema? Jesus Christ.
What I do remember of that particular experience was the whole place erupting into laughter when Anakin talked about killing the sand people. Just the worst delivery of awful dialogue. The perfect storm of shit.
Your opinions seem woefully misplaced. It almost feels like you don't know the meanings behind the things you're talking about, instead insisting on blaming the movie for your own lack of perception.
At the end of the day, it is all subjective, but there is a reason this film is 95% on RT with nearly 300 professional reviews, at an average rating of 8.3, as well as having a rating of 81 over at metacritic. Movies with "zero story development", "no pacing" etc, tend not to get those sorts of reviews, or that sort of consistent critical acclaim, even Star Wars, as made abundantly clear from the reception of the prequels.
Starsailor
Banned
J.J.Abrams killed Han solo by Kylo Ren because he need Kylo to be a great villain after the infamous darth vader.
That's why. Nothing more, nothing less. He explain that create a new bad guy after THE GREAT bad guy of movies is really really difficult so he need Kylo to be MORE in the dark side than Anakin
That's why. Nothing more, nothing less. He explain that create a new bad guy after THE GREAT bad guy of movies is really really difficult so he need Kylo to be MORE in the dark side than Anakin
Spiritreaver
Member
I love how there's still people seeing the film for the first time. I went again last night and there was a guy next to me who hadn't seen it before. He went nuts when Han died, and was speechless after it was over.
I also just got a text from one of my best friends saying he cried throughout the film after seeing it today.
Feels good.
I also just got a text from one of my best friends saying he cried throughout the film after seeing it today.
Feels good.
A ton of people, actually.
JetBlackPanda
Member
When I saw it a second time some kids next me were destroyed at Solos death one kid screamed noooo Han Solo can't die!!
Dash_Riprock
Member
I'm pretty sure Harrison only wanted to do one last film also played a part.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Man, that fight was some bullshit. I've seen better choreography from LARPers in the ravine.
Disney had 1 job of getting some good jedi vs sith melee going on but all we got was very meh action. Remove the spin flips from the prequel and put that action in this trilogy. This was just embarrassing. They made force users look like jobbers.
TheOctodad
Member
All I know is that as a teenager I watched the prequels once each, was sad and never watched them again.
I watched this one as an adult, had so much fun and am going to see it again soon. I have about 20 friends that feel the same way. On top of dozens of people that have never seen the old ones that have been raving about this one.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
You may have missed it earlier, but the supreme leader or whoever is Kylo Ren's master pretty much tasked him with killing his father, telling him that it would be his greatest test yet.
I don't think Kylo hated Han at all.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Great film. Just got back. Gotta put my thoughts in order.
That said:
Why the hell is Ben Solo/Kylo Ren a tantrum-throwing twat? Like, he's just a dick. What's his motivation? Why's he so obsessed with living up to Vader? Is there any redemption for him? Especially after he murdered his father?
I did like that when he removed his helmet, it was just the dude from Girls. Not some monstrous looking dude.
His fighting was awesome. That last lightsaber duel with Kylo/Rey/Finn was awesome as fuck. Loved the feeling of weight and desperation behind it.
There was a guy in the theater who literally just stood up, left, and did not come back after Han died.
That said:
Why the hell is Ben Solo/Kylo Ren a tantrum-throwing twat? Like, he's just a dick. What's his motivation? Why's he so obsessed with living up to Vader? Is there any redemption for him? Especially after he murdered his father?
I did like that when he removed his helmet, it was just the dude from Girls. Not some monstrous looking dude.
His fighting was awesome. That last lightsaber duel with Kylo/Rey/Finn was awesome as fuck. Loved the feeling of weight and desperation behind it.
There was a guy in the theater who literally just stood up, left, and did not come back after Han died.
Starsailor
Banned
The Kylo spin is my new favourite move. I like how he almost takes Finn's head off beforehand.
holy shit this is so much more powerful than those acrobat gymnatic fucking guys during the prequels
I remember tons of people going crazy when Yoda lit up that lightsaber haha. It's kinda stupid looking back at it now (though I'm a huge fan of Yoda's battle in ROTS) and definitely a "for the fans" moment. People loved that shit.
Already Torn
Banned
Anakin is supposed to be a likable good guy up through the second half of Episode III. That's the whole premise of the prequel trilogy, and why he's a perfect angel child in episode I and why Padme falls in love with him after he murders everyone. And why Obi-Wan says "and he was a good friend".
He honestly believes that following the Dark Side is the "right thing", he is horribly conflicted because his inner light side makes him think of himself as a monster, and he wants to avenge his grandpa because he thinks his Grandpa was a role model until he went bad and went to the light side at the end of Jedi. He's crazy basically.
BlackGhost
Banned
Watched it earlier this morning, by the end of the movie I was really enjoying myself. Maybe one of my favorite Star Wars movies. I kept myself away from most of the pre release stuff besides main trailers, so went in alttile blind. The new characters turned out to be very enjoyable. The last half of the movie was great. That final battle in the snow was amazing. Need to see it again
Kylo: first I wasn't expecting him to be the guy from Girls hahah, caught me off guard. Loved his whole dynamic and conflict. I like that he acknowledged that he wasn't as strong as Vader yet. The tantrums added to the character. I was hoping the whole time he wouldn't die, so we could get more character development.
Finn: like I said before I came in blind, so honestly thought he was gonna turn out to be a Jedi. But I enjoyed the character. Seems to bring a light hearted-ness to the movie too.
Ray: holy shit she turned out super cool by the the end of the movie. Already like her as a lead Jedi, I look forward to her in the future.
Want to see a Kylo vs Luke fight eventually
Kylo: first I wasn't expecting him to be the guy from Girls hahah, caught me off guard. Loved his whole dynamic and conflict. I like that he acknowledged that he wasn't as strong as Vader yet. The tantrums added to the character. I was hoping the whole time he wouldn't die, so we could get more character development.
Finn: like I said before I came in blind, so honestly thought he was gonna turn out to be a Jedi. But I enjoyed the character. Seems to bring a light hearted-ness to the movie too.
Ray: holy shit she turned out super cool by the the end of the movie. Already like her as a lead Jedi, I look forward to her in the future.
Want to see a Kylo vs Luke fight eventually
Loved this whole fight. It didn't top the ESB or ROTJ fights, but that still puts it at 3rd best lightsaber duel of all time so that's okay. Visually it was glorious and there was lots going on with the characters.The Kylo spin is my new favourite move. I like how he almost takes Finn's head off beforehand.
PHOENIXZERO
Member
Maybe I missed a post but I'm sure you weren't serious with this but...
And I know there were probably earlier references to it.
That's kind of weird.
TheOctodad
Member
What point are you trying to make?
I disagree. The character is written to be annoying, childish and cocky.
JetBlackPanda
Member
Kylo was injured and an emotional mess and Rey had never used a saber before.
The fight was brutal and has real weight to it.
They aren't masters
Biggest-Geek-Ever
Member
Hahahahahahaha
this is a joke right? Anakin was sold as heroic and entry-point for the kid audience from moment one. In the second film, he's a central figure in all the marketing, and it sure as hell isn't made to make him look like anything but a hero. And if we're not supposed to empathize with him, then who? Obi-Wan? The character who has the bare minimum of an arc in the first movie, simply exists to move the plot forward in the second, and keep himself occupied in the third until he's supposed to be all upset about Anakin by the end? That emotional powerhouse of a character? I like Ewan Mcgregor but he was given nothing to work with in these movies.
Pretty much.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Happens all the time in America at least.
Even today, four or five days after release, in a 12:00 p.m. showing with a half empty theater showing the normal non-IMAX, non-3D version of the film, I encountered a decent number of people cheering at the appearance of Han Solo and Chewbacca.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Arrogant, yes. The childishness was all Hayden. Have you ever seen any of his other movies?
This still makes them jobbers. Arguably the third and forth strongest jedi/sith in the galaxy are two jobbers. He can do cool things with the force but he swings like a jobber. At this point how do the sith and jedi pose any threat to anyone? They better see a massive power upgrade because any one who is competent in melee can stomp them both. A beat cop from Indonesia would take down their academy.
Wrong. He was sold as an arrogant, reckless dumbass who kept wanting more and more power.
Yes, I have. And it was written into his character for Anakin.
The Kylo spin is my new favourite move. I like how he almost takes Finn's head off beforehand.
This will soon be gifed into Kylo spinning by himself and will prove to anyone that the fight sucked
You know it'll happen
BlastProcessing
Member
When he didn't return I'm sure they sent someone to get him. Not unbelievable that they would have had a contingency plan if things went sideways.
8BitsAtATime
Member
I've seen it 4 times and last night was my favorite. There was a girl crying and sobbing in the theater. Everyone was awwwing over BB8. There was so rad energy in the theater
WadiumArcadium
Member
You're probably right. I will sigh that day.
This drives me crazy. When is the time when more people will agree with you? 5 years? When? Should critics change their reviews?
Do you realize that many more star wars fans are very critical after getting burnt? I could easily say in time you will love this movie. It makes no sense.
Already Torn
Banned
I agree that he's written that way, but not a single character in the movies thinks of him that way. It's just bad writing that doesn't do its job at all. Like notice how in this movie people call Kylo a monster because he's supposed to be unlikable and isn't just the byproduct of a massive failure on the writer's part.
CreepingFear
Member
Kylo Ren becomes very interesting once he takes off the mask. Before that, he was just Maul or Dooku.
Starsailor
Banned
trying to explain how difficult it was for J.J.A to make this movie and seeing many peoples crying "OMG It's just Star Wars 4 no innovation" make me sad for him.
Like Zelda Twillight Princess 9 years ago
Obi Wan certainly does. He thinks he is a good person, but you can be arrogant and childish while still being a good person.
It is not until Episode III when Anakin turns downright evil.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
Just saw it. Don't have much love for Star Wars---as a kid I loved the toys, especially the monsters and such, and saw the Phantom Menace and Clone Wars in theaters but even when I was young I thought they were pretty dull and non-too interesting. Basically haven't touched any EU stuff beyond watching a bit of the CG Clone Wars show which was pretty fun honestly. Kind of interested in checking out some EU stuff though that seems like a confusing and time-hogging endeavor.
I thought Finn was a fun character, but what was up with his character being like that? It felt really odd how suddenly he switched sides, and how much personality he had considering he was basically a child soldier. Then there's the weirdness of him being shaken up at seeing a fellow Trooper killed in the first battle, yet then he's blasting them to pieces without any problem. Him being a former Storm Trooper honestly didn't matter much till the end really, or so it felt that way. The scene where the other Storm Trooper calls him a traitor and then gets all personal with that battering ram weapon felt really off because everywhere else it didn't feel like there was any consequences for his actions, like everyone in the Resistance trusts him immediately when it feels like there should've been at least one person who questioned his loyalty.
This movie really had that "Marvel" vibe at parts---you know what I mean by that, right? How there's sort of an undercurrent of subversive humor throughout the movie that sometimes makes it hard to guess what tone a scene is going for? Perfect example of this in my opinion was when Rey first manifested her mind control powers and used it on the Trooper---that scene felt like it was trying to be funny even though it was a major event. Plus, honestly, it really bugged me how easy that power came to her---Rey throughout the film had gotten through with her tech knowhow and such, and it seems getting out of that chair would involve putting that to good use, just giving her such a great power felt tonally odd. There's lots of other moments where I thought the film wanted me to laugh, even though it was a serious scene. I haven't watched the originals in years, and I know they juxtaposed drama and comedy as well, but it felt a bit obnoxious here and definitely inspired by what Marvel tends to do in all their movies.
The effects were pretty cool overall, and I liked a lot of the background alien designs, but it's odd they went with CG for Snoke and the Bar Owner, the two most important alien characters, and it really stood out in a bad way I thought. Both of them kind of felt like they were from another movie, Snoke like a dude from Marvel as people have mentioned and the Bar Owner gave me an Avatar vibe.
I thought Finn was a fun character, but what was up with his character being like that? It felt really odd how suddenly he switched sides, and how much personality he had considering he was basically a child soldier. Then there's the weirdness of him being shaken up at seeing a fellow Trooper killed in the first battle, yet then he's blasting them to pieces without any problem. Him being a former Storm Trooper honestly didn't matter much till the end really, or so it felt that way. The scene where the other Storm Trooper calls him a traitor and then gets all personal with that battering ram weapon felt really off because everywhere else it didn't feel like there was any consequences for his actions, like everyone in the Resistance trusts him immediately when it feels like there should've been at least one person who questioned his loyalty.
This movie really had that "Marvel" vibe at parts---you know what I mean by that, right? How there's sort of an undercurrent of subversive humor throughout the movie that sometimes makes it hard to guess what tone a scene is going for? Perfect example of this in my opinion was when Rey first manifested her mind control powers and used it on the Trooper---that scene felt like it was trying to be funny even though it was a major event. Plus, honestly, it really bugged me how easy that power came to her---Rey throughout the film had gotten through with her tech knowhow and such, and it seems getting out of that chair would involve putting that to good use, just giving her such a great power felt tonally odd. There's lots of other moments where I thought the film wanted me to laugh, even though it was a serious scene. I haven't watched the originals in years, and I know they juxtaposed drama and comedy as well, but it felt a bit obnoxious here and definitely inspired by what Marvel tends to do in all their movies.
The effects were pretty cool overall, and I liked a lot of the background alien designs, but it's odd they went with CG for Snoke and the Bar Owner, the two most important alien characters, and it really stood out in a bad way I thought. Both of them kind of felt like they were from another movie, Snoke like a dude from Marvel as people have mentioned and the Bar Owner gave me an Avatar vibe.
hipsterpants
Member
I forgot to mention a lot of of the clear "humor" beats in the film fell pretty flat with me and the audience I was with. It's always uncomfortable watching something you know you're supposed to laugh at but don't lol
The movie is a paint by numbers affair. It's safe, playful, but utterly forgettable. J.J is a capable director, but hardly anything to gush over.
All his movies share this very mechanical quality to them. It's like pop music. Play the right notes, don't deviate from the formula and you'll please people. This is exactly that.
The amp up to this movie is unlike anything in a long time. That's the difference here and why these initial reactions need to be gauged differently. You have some critics completely and utterly fanboying this shit. It's obvious as hell when you actually think about the movie....
Dash_Riprock
Member
I must say you're ever better at revisionist history than Lucas himself. Well done.
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