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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #2) - One Thumb Up

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excelsiorlef said:
Oh see there I disagree, this kid is a little shit, and some of these little shits don't grow out of it.

He killed Han Solo in cold blood on screen, this kid deserves nothing but a cold grave. I mean that;s why I love him, he;s so uncool I want him to die eventually, unlike literally any other Star Wars villain,
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Sure, I can totally see that angle too. Personally I'm hoping for some sort of pivotal enlightenment or sacrifice that doesn't outright redeem him, but shows growth and change.

I mean he has the blood of likely millions of people on his hands, so I don't expect or want to see him picking up a blue lightsaber anytime soon, but something similar to Darth Vader's change of heart would be fitting I think. Especially considering the core irony of his character right now is his ignorance (earnest or willful) of his idol Darth Vader's final act. He worships the darkness Vader embraced and turns to him in a moment of crisis when he feels "the light coming in," but clearly Vader let the light win in the end, so...
 
excelsiorlef said:
Yeah but they were faceless kids and it took 30 years for him to redeem himself.

This is Han Solo, his father and iconic character, killing him needs to be the thing that closed the door in retrospect from him ever coming back.

Hell I want him to want redemption but not get it. Like a fucking child who thinks sorry can get you out of anything only to find out in the real world sometimes sorry doesn't cut it.
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Well I certainly don't want Kylo to get the bullshit Sasuke treatment. But I wouldn't mind a redemption through the force.
 
I'm sure it's been mentioned before, but part of what was compelling to me about Kylo's dysfunction were the addiction vibes coming from his being torn between both sides. Especially since it's an inversion of what one would expect: the light is his temptation, and he's desperately trying to sever all connections with it and rehabilitate himself.
 
injurai said:
Well I certainly don't want Kylo to get the bullshit Sasuke treatment. But I wouldn't mind a redemption through the force.
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I mean I'll probably be ok with it, but I'd love to see the little shit begging to be forgiven and get denied in someway.

We'll see :), that's what makes it exciting both ways are interesting and fulfilling.
 
XANDER CAGE said:
Sure, I can totally see that angle too. Personally I'm hoping for some sort of pivotal enlightenment or sacrifice that doesn't outright redeem him, but shows growth and change.

I mean he has the blood of likely millions of people on his hands, so I don't expect or want to see him picking up a blue lightsaber anytime soon, but something similar to Darth Vader's change of heart would be fitting I think. Especially considering the core irony of his character right now is his ignorance (earnest or willful) of his idol Darth Vader's final act. He worships the darkness Vader embraced and turns to him in a moment of crisis when he feels "the light coming in," but clearly Vader let the light win in the end, so...
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Kylo Ren is not ignorant of Vader's final choice. In the film, Snoke and him allude to it, some line about not having a moment of weakness like Vader. The novelization makes this extra clear by clarifying that Kylo Ren is totally aware of that but considers it a momentary lapse, not a true reversal.
 
injurai said:
Well I certainly don't want Kylo to get the bullshit Sasuke treatment. But I wouldn't mind a redemption through the force.
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Yeah I honestly think there's no real way out of this for him without self sacrifice. Killing his father sealed the deal. I think that if he does have a change of heart, he'll sacrifice himself to allow others to live/allow Rey to defeat Snoke/the big bad.

I can't see him living past episode IX. But who knows.
 
ridley182 said:
The more I think about the movie the less I like it. BUT, at the same time I still feel it's a good enough foundation for the sequels. I'm just happy it wasn't prequel-bad.
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I'd rather it be prequel "bad" than be what we got which was the franchise buying time for the next movie to actually be original. Still liked it but it feels like a remastered greatest hits album.
 
excelsiorlef said:
I mean I'll probably be ok with it, but I'd love to see the little shit begging to be forgiven and get denied in someway.

We'll see :), that's what makes it exciting both ways are interesting and fulfilling.
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Yeah, I see no reason why another character should need to grant him forgiveness. But I could be open to it, especially if the act has some greater weight that it carries through the force itself.

I'm so strapped in and stoked for where Rian takes us all.
 
Inferno313 said:
Kylo Ren is not ignorant of Vader's final choice. In the film, Snoke and him allude to it, some line about not having a moment of weakness like Vader. The novelization makes this extra clear by clarifying that Kylo Ren is totally aware of that but considers it a momentary lapse, not a true reversal.
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Cool, thanks for clearing that up - hadn't read the novelization. I think that makes it extra interesting, personally.
 
excelsiorlef said:
That was literally me through out it. The new characters were just awesome and the chemistry between them is unreal, I hope Poe becomes the third part of the Sequel Trilogy Trio, those 3 have chemistry more so honestly than the original trio.
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GhaleonEB said:
One of my worries going in was the new cast would be over shadowed by the old. Instead we got a remarkably strong core cast with Rey, Kylo, Finn and Poe. For all the retreads in the film, they really nailed the new characters and the casting of them. Genuinely excited to see these characters again. In particular, the Rey/Finn/Poe love triangle.
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Agreed on all counts. I loved space battles and everything, but I really got invested in the characters in this film. Can't wait for the next one!
 
zethren said:
Yeah I honestly think there's no real way out of this for him without self sacrifice. Killing his father sealed the deal. I think that if he does have a change of heart, he'll sacrifice himself to allow others to live/allow Rey to defeat Snoke/the big bad.

I can't see him living past episode IX. But who knows.
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I hope Han's ghost/hallucination haunts him through VIII and IX. A visible sign of the light dragging him home.
 
Also I really enjoy Kylo Ren because he is allowing us to witness the repercussions of the influence an evil descendant can have on the family line.

It's not like "oh, Anakin was that one crazy grandpa that turned evil for a bit... Let's not talk about that at dinner!". Anakin's choices have real consequences on his family for generations, and I find that fascinating.
 
XANDER CAGE said:
Cool, thanks for clearing that up - hadn't read the novelization. I think that makes it extra interesting, personally.
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It does because... well, is it wrong?

Anakin spent maybe twenty years as a Jedi? Not a full on Jedi either, dude was only made a Jedi Knight in ROTS. Then he went full Sith, with all privileges, for the next twenty five years. Dude was more Sith than he ever was a Jedi, and five minutes near the end of ROTJ is a lapse - and that's less 'I am a Jedi again' and more 'don't hurt my boy.'
 
XANDER CAGE said:
Cool, thanks for clearing that up - hadn't read the novelization. I think that makes it extra interesting, personally.
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The novelization doesn't seem to be extraordinarily written or anything, but this is a good page:
“Kylo Ren, I watched the Galactic Empire rise, and then fall. The gullible prattle on about the triumph of truth and justice, of individualism and free will. As if such things were solid and real instead of simple subjective judgments. The historians have it all wrong. It was neither poor strategy nor arrogance that brought down the Empire. You know too well what did.”
Ren nodded once. “Sentiment.”
“Yes. Such a simple thing. Such a foolish error of judgment. A momentary lapse in an otherwise exemplary life. Had Lord Vader not succumbed to emotion at the crucial moment—had the father killed the son—the Empire would have prevailed. And there would be no threat of Skywalker’s return today.”
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I think it's cool Kylo Ren knows at least most of the truth about what happened and is trying to rationalize it. I bet he worries about doing something eerily similar.
 
injurai said:
Yeah, I see no reason why another character should need to grant him forgiveness. But I could be open to it, especially if the act has some greater weight that it carries through the force itself.

I'm so strapped in and stoked for where Rian takes us all.
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Me too. Flat out I went into TFA with no expectations, I had heard good things but people also loved Star Trek 09 and to a lesser extend ST: ID and both of those were abysmal to me as a Trek fan, so I was floored by how awesome it was and how much I loved the new characters, all four main newbies are now in my like top 10 fav Star Wars characters with Rey and Finn being top 3 right now actually.

Awesome new characters, an engaging little shit for a villain, and Luke Skywalker, what's not to be excited for.
 
GhaleonEB said:
One of my worries going in was the new cast would be over shadowed by the old. Instead we got a remarkably strong core cast with Rey, Kylo, Finn and Poe. For all the retreads in the film, they really nailed the new characters and the casting of them. Genuinely excited to see these characters again. In particular, the Rey/Finn/Poe love triangle.
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As JJ put it, he felt they needed to go backwards in order to go forwards. In doing so they set up this incredibly strong foundation in the characters and put them right into the wringer. The New Order up to the old (and best tricks) of the empire. It makes perfectly good sense that they would also create some super weapon, that's just where the arms race has taken the world of Star Wars, and they aren't enacting a policy of disarmament any time soon.

Can't wait to see all the new plot elements that they can now focus on. The Republic and New Order have been crippled. The Knights of Ren and "Luke and friends" will probably shaping the course of events on the battleground of the force. So exciting.
 
I hope kylo goes full asshole. More interesting than trying to redeem yet another mass murdering megalomaniac. Make his journey to be greater than Vader parallel Rey's path through the light.
 
Inorigo said:
I think it's assume Risn Johnson is going to want to dodge something that obvious. If she is Luke's, it won't be that simple. The mother will be someone of key significance.
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I think we'll be getting a non-connected Jedi sooner rather than later, but the point of these films is to use the old to ease people into the new. Having Rey be Luke's kid does that, and then from there they can rebuild the Jedi Temples etc.,
 
Inorigo said:
I think it's assume Risn Johnson is going to want to dodge something that obvious. If she is Luke's, it won't be that simple. The mother will be someone of key significance.
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leiaponcho.jpg
 
Morrigan Stark said:
Uh, I haven't watched Ep2 in years and chased most of it from my memory, but I do remember him talking heatedly about how he murdered women and children.
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Tusken Raiders who kidnapped and tortured his mom to death, yeah. They're animals to most people but he was surprised that he hacked all of them down out of revenge.
 
DeathyBoy said:
It does because... well, is it wrong?

Anakin spent maybe twenty years as a Jedi? Not a full on Jedi either, dude was only made a Jedi Knight in ROTS. Then he went full Sith, with all privileges, for the next twenty five years. Dude was more Sith than he ever was a Jedi, and five minutes near the end of ROTJ is a lapse - and that's less 'I am a Jedi again' and more 'don't hurt my boy.'
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True, although Vader/Anakin's final words to Luke are very remorseful and clearly inspired by a greater sense of good. I mean,

"I'm not leaving you here, I've got to save you."
"You already have, Luke. You were right. You were right about me. Tell your sister, you were right."
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A small act compared to the evils he had helped commit at the Emperor's side, but still. A moment of earnest repentance.
 
brandonh83 said:
Tusken Raiders who kidnapped and tortured his mom to death, yeah. They're animals to most people but he was surprised that he hacked all of them down out of revenge.
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Wait, are you seriously saying that Anakin killing the entire camp, women and children included, was justified, or not villainous?
 
zethren said:
Yeah I honestly think there's no real way out of this for him without self sacrifice. Killing his father sealed the deal. I think that if he does have a change of heart, he'll sacrifice himself to allow others to live/allow Rey to defeat Snoke/the big bad.

I can't see him living past episode IX. But who knows.
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So almost the same thing as the original trilogy? No thanks.
 
Morrigan Stark said:
Wait, are you seriously saying that Anakin killing the entire camp, women and children included, was justified, or not villainous?
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I think it's a gray area. Like I said in the SW universe they're considered to be vicious creatures. They did, again, kidnap and brutally torture his mom to death. I can't say I sympathize much.
 
DeathyBoy said:
I think we'll be getting a non-connected Jedi sooner rather than later, but the point of these films is to use the old to ease people into the new. Having Rey be Luke's kid does that, and then from there they can rebuild the Jedi Temples etc.,
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Yes, but it's also everyone's first guess. Everyone expects Johnson to shake things up and people involved with the movie seem to say that's indeed what's happening. That's why I say, Luke can be the father, but it's not going to be a simple open/shut thing. There's going to be actwist, liof that is indeed the case.

We're all guessing about the father, but the identity of her mother is probably the better question.
 
Morrigan Stark said:
Uh, I haven't watched Ep2 in years and chased most of it from my memory, but I do remember him talking heatedly about how he murdered women and children.
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The Tusken raiders who killed his mother? I mean he's still not the villain there, he literally is paling around with Obi-Wan and marries Padme later. A single bad act does not make you a villain.

He kills kids in Ep III but that's in the last hour when he turns to the dark side.

I mean that's the biggest problem with Anakin's story he goes from confused teenager to child murderer in 5 seconds flat, like helping kill Mace Windu made him go yep killing kids is cool now.

He was still a "hero" in Ep II
 
Inorigo said:
Yes, but it's also everyone's first guess. Everyone expects Johnson to shake things up and people involved with the movie seem to say that's indeed what's happening. That's why I say, Luke can be the father, but it's not going to be a simple open/shut thing. There's going to be actwist, liof that is indeed the case.

We're all guessing about the father, but the identity of her mother is probably the better question.
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Shit, I'd be down for them just revealing Luke's her father in the title crawl. Just make it a non-thing. And then as you said, the issue of her Mother and what happened to her prior to Jakku is the focus of the sequel.

I mean, we're all assuming there'll be a time skip. If that's the case, and Luke is her father, stands to reason they'll bring that shit up relatively quickly after they meet.
 
Bobby Roberts said:
Yeah, I think I've seen you post this before, and I particularly like this aspect of it. Especially the possibility that Luke sacrifices himself at some point to make sure Rey's victory is secured.

I like the idea that this "generational saga" could continue forward with Rey claiming the name of her adoptive father, while the actual bloodline itself dies out.
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I just thought of the downright incredibly cheesiest but clever way to end the trilogy based on this.

We find Rey at the end of Episode IX back in the Lars household in the middle of the dark. It's completely empty, nothing left but dust. Yet she wanders around the place, sensing the history of Luke's presence there, and maybe even Anakin's brief time there as well.

When she finishes, she leaves the house. It's slightly brighter outside and she sees Finn waiting.

F: "Heard the stories about this place...this is where it all ended for him, huh."

R: "No. This is where it all began."

Both smile at each other, and start walking in the direction Luke was facing in ANH. The camera then turns towards their opposite direction to see



...A binary sunrise.
 
XANDER CAGE said:
I've seen a lot of complaints about Kylo but yeah, I really felt engaged with his character. He's a little shit, but his fits of rage and his performative evil-badass persona are oddly relatable. He's got a lot going on inside and it's coming out all wrong. He's the most immediately human villain the series has had, I think.
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Again sure its been mentioned many times, many ways but even small things like beating his chest at the end of the film was engaging in terms of his rage

Beautiful.

I loved his sabre outbursts on the ship and midway through too. Pure rage but almost comical, near Spaceballs type levels. Had more kind of 'yeah that's pent up angst' relateability than anything in the PT.
 
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