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[FZZ]

Man I really want Finn to be a Jedi

 

[soxxx]

The Original trilogy fans had envisioned that was vader was always "vader":

Im pretty thats what they expected him to look like in the phantom menace.

 

[Toxi]

Snoke's title is Supreme Leader. The try-hard line has already been crossed.

Honestly, I don't know why some people are so against Plagueis = Snoke. Is it because everything prequel related really scorched Earth? Snoke being the mentor to Palpatine and cheating death is about the easiest way to establish him as a higher tier threat.

For me, it's because the Darth Plageuis the Wise scene works best when it's ambiguous as to which parts of the story are myth and which are truth.

 

[Jarmel]

For me, it's because the Darth Plageuis the Wise scene works best when it's ambiguous as to which parts of the story are myth and which are truth.

But it's generally all true and there is little reason to doubt Palpatine on this.

 

[AtomnayaKlubnika]

Why, though?

Aside from the tie back to Palpatine's bullshit story, what does it actually add to this one? How would dragging that bullshit into this trilogy do anything but help that one?

The storytelling purpose of pulling him into this trilogy is completely misplaced. Which is another good reason why it'll never happen.

Besides which, it seems much more likely to me that Snoke's getting waxed in the next movie anyway so as to allow for Ren's rise to Supreme Leader for the third movie.

I think it's him, or a version of him, but they'll never call him out clearly. It will be one of these unanswerable questions that surround the new trilogy and that will keep us nerds typing.
I am wondering if Darth Plagueis was an idea that GL had in his mind when he was making the OT, he could have shared the idea of the character with Kasdan. Knowing that would clear the question.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

What does it add? Er a scary Sith lord who can cheat/manipulate death and was Sidious' master.

So what's Kylo Ren, then?

Kylo just murdered Han Solo. We're supposed to backseat this dude (maybe one of the more interesting portrayals of a bad guy in Star Wars, period) so we can dive deeper down the dumb Prequel rabbit hole so as to beef up a bad guy for the sake of what - making Palpatine weaker/dumber? Retroactively making the Prequels seem more important?

Prequels are already important. They don't need the boost. And this trilogy doesn't need to borrow a big bad built entirely out of hearsay from one of the galaxy's most notorious liars to pump up its threat level. Especially when that bad guy would essentially be nothing more than Palpatine 2.0, the same sort of long-term puppetmaster/schemer whose long-range plans fall to shit anyway?

Again, what would Plagueis actually add to this story (especially the first chapter as we've seen) that would make his resurrection from being mentioned in one Episode III scene so much better than simply developing Snoke as a unique character?

 

[Carn82]

I think I would have preferred if Phasma had been the trooper Finn fights with the lightsaber (obviously just have her be wounded not kill her). Kylo could just say "bring back the traitor alive," so the shock baton still makes sense. The person who lowers the shields could be a no name first order officer.

Agreed. But they couldve used phasma for basically every stormtrooper that speaks, it would ground her character more. She couldve been the mind controlled trooper as well. Would be funny if she went from kicking Finns ass to being manipulated by a force rookie, and then being ordered at gunpoint to lower the shields, and ending with a trip to the garbage compactor. She would be totally pissed in episode 8.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

if snoke is anyone else it's not going to be someone who nobody knows.

The idea of Darth Plagueis is a very exciting one, with his ability to resuscitate people with the force. But the general audience, and even most fan have no idea who the guy is. There has been only two novels about him in the EU.

I don't get this particular argument... Plagueis was the Emperor's former master. That all the audience needs to know and that's all there IS to know. This would be stated in literally one line and it would be enough.

 

[WayneMorse]

Why are the Sith considered "evil"?

Are we supposed to just assume that? Yes they do asshole things but in terms of assholeness it's pretty tame compared to shit done in the real world that people justify.

 

[soxxx]

So what's Kylo Ren, then?

Kylo just murdered Han Solo. We're supposed to backseat this dude (maybe one of the more interesting portrayals of a bad guy in Star Wars, period) so we can dive deeper down the dumb Prequel rabbit hole so as to beef up a bad guy for the sake of what - making Palpatine weaker/dumber? Retroactively making the Prequels seem more important?

Prequels are already important. They don't need the boost. And this trilogy doesn't need to borrow a big bad built entirely out of hearsay from one of the galaxy's most notorious liars to pump up its threat level.

Again, what would Plagueis actually add to this story (especially the first chapter as we've seen) that would make his resurrection from being mentioned in one Episode III scene so much better than simply developing Snoke as a unique character?

Ok if Snoke is not Plagueis, explain how you think they will explain who Snoke, he is obviously very old, was around during the empire, but never revealed himself?

 

[DrForester]

The Original trilogy fans had envisioned that was vader was always "vader":

Im pretty thats what they expected him to look like in the phantom menace.

I envisioned a friend of Obi-Won Kenobi's who was seduced by the Dark Side.

We ended up getting neither of those things.

 

[Ape Gone Insane]

So what's Kylo Ren, then?

Kylo just murdered Han Solo. We're supposed to backseat this dude (maybe one of the more interesting portrayals of a bad guy in Star Wars, period) so we can dive deeper down the dumb Prequel rabbit hole so as to beef up a bad guy for the sake of what - making Palpatine more badass? Retroactively making the Prequels seem more important?

Prequels are already important. They don't need the boost. And this trilogy doesn't need to borrow a big bad built entirely out of hearsay from one of the galaxy's most notorious liars to pump up its threat level.

Again, what would Plagueis actually add to this story (especially the first chapter as we've seen) that would make his resurrection from being mentioned in one Episode III scene so much better than simply developing Snoke as a unique character?

What are you talking about? I've said twice now they could just go down the route of introducing him for the first time by borrowing from the now non-canon without any tie-back to Sidious in the prequels. They've already done this with other characters.

 

[Toxi]

But it's generally all true and there is little reason to doubt Palpatine on this.

Palpatine literally calls the story of Darth Plageuis a legend. Why on Earth would you assume it's all true?

 

[mariachi507]

Not true, there's also the trip to Bespin.

Yep, that just popped in my head, figured somebody would've commented already. Good job gaf.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Ok if Snoke is not Plagueis, explain how you think they will explain who Snoke, he is obviously very old, was around during the empire, but never revealed himself?

I think they're going to explain that he's an opportunistic asshole who has some proficiency with the Force (as does Maz, who is ALSO really fucking old) and has manipulated a bunch of people (one of whom is likely stronger than he is) into securing power for him.

There's something to the fact a ton of people keyed in on a Wizard of Oz vibe with the guy, where they didn't with Palpatine in Empire.

He didn't reveal himself likely because if he had, he would have gotten his ass whipped.

What are you talking about? I've said twice now they could just go down the route of introducing him for the first time by borrowing from the now non-canon without any tie-back to Sidious in the prequels.

I didn't address that because there's even LESS point to bringing him in if you proceed from there. The only thing that makes Plagueis even remotely tempting as a name (because he's not even a character) is the tie to Palpatine and his past. Erasing that tie means you might as well come up with a new character. Which they did. And again, Abrams/Kasdan didn't even reference the old EU. They're not looking at it for inspiration at all. Strongly doubt Johnson is, either.

 

[soxxx]

I don't get this particular argument... Plagueis was the Emperor's former master. That all the audience needs to know and that's all there IS to know. This would be stated in literally one line and it would be enough.

Exactly, if they come out and say Snoke was some sith lord that basically hid during the Clone Wars and the Empire, etc, it just wouldnt make sense. The guy is clearly old, older than the emperor.

 

[Jarmel]

Palpatine literally calls it a legend. Why on Earth would you assume it's all true?

Because he didn't want to say that he was a Sith Lord until he absolutely had to.

 

[bodyofanamerican]

I think they're going to explain that he's an opportunistic asshole who has some proficiency with the Force (as does Maz, who is ALSO really fucking old) and has manipulated a bunch of people (one of whom is likely stronger than he is) into securing power for him.

There's something to the fact a ton of people keyed in on a Wizard of Oz vibe with the guy, where they didn't with Palpatine in Empire.

He didn't reveal himself likely because if he had, he would have gotten his ass whipped.

Never thought of this, but this makes a ton of sense.

 

[sphagnum]

Why are the Sith considered "evil"?

Are we supposed to just assume that? Yes they do asshole things but in terms of assholeness it's pretty tame compared to shit done in the real world that people justify.

They murder people to further their own power. They're not just "jerks who don't subscribe to Jedi dogma".

 

[Toxi]

Because he didn't want to say that he was a Sith Lord until he absolutely had to.

What does that have to do with it?

The entire story is told in such a way that it's deliberately ambiguous if Plageuis actually existed, and if he did if Palpatine is speaking from personal experience.

 

[AtomnayaKlubnika]

I don't get this particular argument... Plagueis was the Emperor's former master. That all the audience needs to know and that's all there IS to know. This would be stated in literally one line and it would be enough.

No, I meant that if he were to be revealed as Snoke in the upcoming episodes, nobody would know who he is. Hence, what would be the interest to hold the mystery about his identity?
But they could have inspired themselves with his concept as a character and created a new one.

 

[soxxx]

I think they're going to explain that he's an opportunistic asshole who has some proficiency with the Force (as does Maz, who is ALSO really fucking old) and has manipulated a bunch of people (one of whom is likely stronger than he is) into securing power for him.

There's something to the fact a ton of people keyed in on a Wizard of Oz vibe with the guy, where they didn't with Palpatine in Empire.

He didn't reveal himself likely because if he had, he would have gotten his ass whipped.

So do you respect the quote "always two there are, no more, no less", or are we throwing that away because it was said in the prequels.

And lets be serious, the emperor wouldnt have let another dark force capable being live when he was the emperor. It goes against everything. And if he wasnt as powerful as the emperor, he wouldnt have been able to remain hidden.

 

[soxxx]

And in terms of power, IMO

Plagueis > Palpatine

Palpatine even states Plagueis had so much knowledge of the force, thats why Palpatine could only "kill" him while he was asleep. If Plagueis is the main enemy, it would be pretty epic because in terms of power, he is the ultimate Sith Lord .

 

[Ape Gone Insane]

I think they're going to explain that he's an opportunistic asshole who has some proficiency with the Force (as does Maz, who is ALSO really fucking old) and has manipulated a bunch of people (one of whom is likely stronger than he is) into securing power for him.

There's something to the fact a ton of people keyed in on a Wizard of Oz vibe with the guy, where they didn't with Palpatine in Empire.

He didn't reveal himself likely because if he had, he would have gotten his ass whipped.

I don't think he has 'some proficiency' with the force. He had the ability to sense what was happening thousands/millions of miles/light years away with Rey being with Solo and with the level of training he is giving Ren and will give him to complete his training and how he was able to follow Ren around and manipulate him as a child. Seems like some pretty high level stuff.

Agree about the Wizard of Oz thing. Things don't seem as they come across with him.

 

[Jarmel]

What does that have to do with it?

The entire story is told in such a way that it's deliberately ambiguous if Plageuis actually existed, and if he did if Palpatine is speaking from personal experience.

Anakin:"Wait how do you know these details if you weren't a Sith apprentice?"

It's much easier to brush aside how Palpatine gained the knowledge if he just said it was a legend as he could have heard it from third parties.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

No, I meant that if he were to be revealed as Snoke in the upcoming episodes, nobody would know who he is. Hence, what would be the interest to hold the mystery about his identity?
But they could have inspired themselves with his concept as a character and created a new one.

The interest would be that he's an even more dangerous threat that the Emperor was. And there would also be very far reaching implications regarding the Skywalker family since Plagueis created Anakin.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

So do you respect the quote "always two there are, no more, no less", or are we throwing that away because it was said in the prequels.

That's not even the argument I'm making. That's not even in the zip code of the argument I'm making.

Besides which, Snoke isn't even a Sith. The sith are dead. The whole M.O. of the First Order is that the Empire & the Sith didn't do it right, so they need to do it bigger and better. So why would Snoke be a secret Sith? The heart of your theory depends on the character you want to be in the movie "disrespecting the quote always two there are."

And lets be serious, the emperor wouldnt have let another dark force capable being live when he was the emperor. It goes against everything.

No it doesn't. It's a big ass Galaxy. And if Snoke isn't even all that powerful, but bullshitting people, Wizard of Oz style, it's possible Palpatine never even noticed the guy way out at the ass end of the space doing whatever it is he's doing.

There is no tangible advantage to bringing Plagueis outside of that single speech by Palpatine and into the new trilogy that can't be bested by simply having an entirely new character with his own motivations and his own personality not tied to Palpatine as seen in the Prequels. You can do more with this big engineer looking asshole as a unique new character than you can if you tie him to Palpatine in any way.

This trilogy really seems to be about making Kylo Ren as massive a threat as possible. Which means Snoke is there to be a stepping stone, not the final boss. So why bring back Plagueis only to have him just get offed by an apprentice...again?

 

[Carn82]

So do you respect the quote "always two there are, no more, no less", or are we throwing that away because it was said in the prequels.

And lets be serious, the emperor wouldnt have let another dark force capable being live when he was the emperor. It goes against everything. And if he wasnt as powerful as the emperor, he wouldnt have been able to remain hidden.

Or he was wise enough to realise that the Sith wouldnt prosper because of that rule, and needed to remove himself from the playing field for a while.

 

[Fury451]

The Original trilogy fans had envisioned that was vader was always "vader":

Im pretty thats what they expected him to look like in the phantom menace.

I don't think anyone wanted that, but I'm not sure anyone really wanted what they got either. Most of that is on the writing and performances I imagine though.

Clone Wars media redeemed what otherwise was Anakin's generally poor portrayal in the prequels.

Not to mention that prequel Anakin's personality and behavior seem at odds with how Obi-Wan later describes him.

 

[AtomnayaKlubnika]

The interest would be that he's an even more dangerous threat that the Emperor was. And there would also be very far reaching implications regarding the Skywalker family since Plagueis created Anakin.

That's EU tho.

 

[Toxi]

The interest would be that he's an even more dangerous threat that the Emperor was. And there would also be very far reaching implications regarding the Skywalker family since Plagueis created Anakin.

Why? Plagueis was just a random Sith who created life and then got offed. Palpatine destroyed the Jedi and took over the entire Galaxy.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Why? Plagueis was just a random Sith who created life and then got offed. Palpatine destroyed the Jedi and took over the entire Galaxy.

If Plagueis is back then that means he conquered death. Something even the Emperor didn't know how to do.

 

[Astral Dog]

But who is Darth Vaders dad? True they cut a scene wheere Palpatine reveals he is the father?

That would explain a lot of things :O

 

[FZZ]

Anakin was born from the force

It's why he's OP as fuck

Dude is literally Star Wars Jesus

 

[a916]

Why, though?

Aside from the tie back to Palpatine's bullshit story, what does it actually add to this one? How would dragging that bullshit into this trilogy do anything but help that one?

The storytelling purpose of pulling him into this trilogy is completely misplaced. Which is another good reason why it'll never happen.

Besides which, it seems much more likely to me that Snoke's getting waxed in the next movie anyway so as to allow for Ren's rise to Supreme Leader for the third movie.

This is such a weird statement that you didn't explain... in what way is it misplaced? If he shows up and says, I am Plageus, at what point do you go, yeah this is misplaced?

Also you're wrong in saying "BS". The whole idea of Plageus is really different than the other two Sith. He brings with him, a whole different type of Sith. In the EU he was about to abolish the rule of two.

Why? Plagueis was just a random Sith who created life and then got offed. Palpatine destroyed the Jedi and took over the entire Galaxy.

He stood on the shoulders of Plageus.

Or he was wise enough to realise that the Sith wouldnt prosper because of that rule, and needed to remove himself from the playing field for a while.

He actually thinks that (now part of the EU), that he felt the rule of two was archaic and he wanted it to end with him.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

This is such a weird statement that you didn't explain... in what way is it misplaced?

I'd explained it in a previous post, that sentence was a callback to it. It's misplaced because the only actual benefit to including him would be to more tightly tie this trilogy to the prequel trilogy, which doesn't actually help this trilogy from a storytelling perspective, it helps that one.

Also you're wrong in saying "BS".

No I'm not. Snoke as Plagueis is a bullshit idea. Any sentence trying to push him that contains the words "in the EU" basically voids itself. Abrams & Kasdan aren't looking to those books for anything.

 

[Randdalf]

I totally didn't know that Lucas actually went and messed around with the prequels as well. Frank Oz's puppet Yoda was replaced by CGI in the Blu-Ray release.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxaZxpNTm8A

 

[Lulu23]

Again, what would Plagueis actually add to this story (especially the first chapter as we've seen) that would make his resurrection from being mentioned in one Episode III scene so much better than simply developing Snoke as a unique character?

Personally, it would make me feel as if they didn't just pull a new villian out of their ass just to have one in the sequels, but rather have someone who was in the background of it all from EP I to VI (or even IX).

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Personally, it would make me feel as if they didn't just pull a new villian out of their ass.

One of the primary complaints about this film is that it isn't original enough, but the behind-the-scenes bad guy being a completely new character is an asspull.

 

[Squire]

Basically the PT had its chance and failed. New trilogy needs to do things that'll make it stick in people's minds, not redeem the PT.

In that sense, bringing back Plagueis would be out of step from what they're already doing. They also already have people saying they're just retreading old territory as is.

 

[fastford58]

Half of what makes the Plagueis scene in RotS good (and yes, the scene is really damn good, prequel status be damned) is that you're not sure how much of it is legend and how much of it is truth. Having Snoke be Plagueis would ruin that ambiguity.

What about how the Force is midichlorians? I wouldn't worry so much about the new films ruining ambiguity. The prequels take the crown for that. If anything, the new films are trying to bring some ambiguity back.

That being said, I'd be ok with Snokelagueis. I'd be ok with more prequel ties in general as long as it isn't like a grandpa jar jar or something.

 

[Carn82]

Well the x-wing stuff in this movie wasn't very good.

Didnt Lucas use a lot of ww2 footage during preproduction of A New Hope? Somehow the old stuff looks more real, probably because they didnt fly around like CGI toys.

 

[Randdalf]

Didnt Lucas use a lot of ww2 footage during preproduction of A New Hope? Somehow the old stuff looks more real, probably because they didnt fly around like CGI toys.

He used clips from the Dambusters I think

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Basically the PT had its chance and failed. New trilogy needs to do things that'll make it stick in people's minds, not redeem the PT.

In that sense, bringing back Plagueis would be out of step from what they're already doing. They also already have people saying they're just retreading old territory as is.

Yup!

 

[soxxx]

If Plagueis is back then that means he conquered death. Something even the Emperor didn't know how to do.

EXACTLY. He would in essence be the most powerful entity in the galaxy.

"So powerful and so wise"

"he could use the force to influence the mitclorions to create life"

Its possible Plagueis also created the life that is Anakin Skywalker, to kill the emperor. (but im not going there, because thats a stretch)

 

[Squire]

Yup!

That timing. I didn't even see your post!

 

[soxxx]

Personally, it would make me feel as if they didn't just pull a new villian out of their ass just to have one in the sequels, but rather have someone who was in the background of it all from EP I to VI (or even IX).

Exactly, and so far,everything has made sense, Kylo wasnt pulled out of someones ass despite people suspecting he was before the movie came out. I am confident the same will be said for Snoke and Rey to. Its still part of the Star Wars Saga, and so far everything has made sense.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

That timing. I didn't even see your post!

We both saw a nail needed hammering

 

[Jarmel]

I don't think it matters much either way.

 

[AtomnayaKlubnika]

I'd explained it in a previous post, that sentence was a callback to it. It's misplaced because the only actual benefit to including him would be to more tightly tie this trilogy to the prequel trilogy, which doesn't actually help this trilogy from a storytelling perspective, it helps that one.



No I'm not. Snoke as Plagueis is a bullshit idea. Any sentence trying to push him that contains the words "in the EU" basically voids itself. Abrams & Kasdan aren't looking to those books for anything.

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes", there is no way to know for sure Plagueis would not help the new trilogy storytelling development.
When did the idea of Darth Plagueis was born anyway? Was it during the OT? Did GL share the idea with Kasdan at the time?