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[Ether_Snake]

Tempted if she even was (and there was not much if any of it in the movie itself) is hardly setting up full dark, let alone in the next movie.

There is fucking nothing in this film that says look out folks Rey is going to be the villain and Ren the hero in the next movie.

Why on earth some people want to see the guy who killed Han Solo become the hero of this series boggles my mind, especially at the expense of all the character development of Rey and Finn.

I don't believe Ben will ever go light except if he dies. Rey falling to the dark side to use that power to kill Kylo or go after Snoke? I think so. No need to get worked up over it.

BTW we never found out who that was? An early Snoke test?

Also Rey's stick really looks too much like a fricking light saber. I was gonna say maybe it is one and she doesn't even know, could be only force-activated, but you'd think she would have tinkered with it and found out anyway.

 

[Boke1879]

Honestly, the only coincidence that bothers me is R2 waking up. The rest I can easily explain away.

The only way I can explain R2 waking up is having something to do with Rey and MAYBE her connection to Luke. Other than that I have nothing.

 

[prag16]

Not sure if this was discussed yet. Verdict on the reports of Ford returning for VIII?

Flashback sequence at most? No way he survived that.

I guess there were two parts of it. Some casting website that Hidalgo said is bs. But also a comment by Kathleen Kennedy.

 

[excelsiorlef]

*sigh*

I wish so many people weren't making every post about Rey about her sex.

You can't ignore it. She's the one of two significant proactive female protagonist this series has ever had (and frankly Leia was a damse in distress for most of the OT). She's the first signigicant female force user/Jedi in the movie series.

There's a million ways she can go that are interesting that don't result in her going evil so Ren can become Ben Solo hero.

 

[Ether_Snake]

You can't ignore it. She's the one of two significant proactive female protagonist this series has ever had (and frankly Leia was a damse in distress for most of the OT). She's the first signigicant female force user/Jedi in the movie series.

There's a million ways she can go that are interesting that don't result in her going evil so Ren can become Ben Solo hero.

She can go to the dark side and kill Ben too while he never goes light

 

[The Librarian]

The only way I can explain R2 waking up is having something to do with Rey and MAYBE her connection to Luke. Other than that I have nothing.

Can't link to it now, but the writers have said it was actually because, after BB8 bumped into R2, it took him a while to wake up.

Yeah...

 

[Tawpgun]

If Han comes back its going to be incredibly minimal. Like a few shots for a flashback if need be.

He clearly wanted to die. Didn't want to play Han anymore.

 

[18-Volt]

*last female protagonist in the last, previously released Star Wars film, Revenge of the Sith, spent the entire time sitting around while pregnant*
*first awesome, female Jedi protagonist in the newest film*

many male fans: lol lets have her go to the dark side

Actually that would be the best thing that could happen for her. Otherwise she'll be another Luke, and as we all know, Luke sucks.

Luke really does suck. He's not that smart, he let his plan to rescue Han fail, he didn't complete his training with Yoda and he let one of his apprentice, his own nephew to go dark side on his watch. He's so pure and naïve, a perfect light side jedi. Unlike Rey.

 

[excelsiorlef]

It would be much more interesting

Why? How on earth would that be more interesting. It'd make TFA absolutely pointless. It'd make Han's death cheap and worthless.

 

[The Adder]

Didn't he hold it so he could release it when they were done wiping out the villagers to blow shit up?

He didn't actually blow anything significant up. The villagers were already dead and the only thing it hit was what it would have hit anyway if it had just been plain old dodged.

 

[Kettch]

I never made the connection that Hux is the same guy as Andrew Henry from The Revenant. Hux should have had a beard. Andrew Henry was a way better character than Hux.

The only purpose for Hux in the film that I could see was to flesh out Kylo. He had no problems talking back to or being derisive of him. He clearly saw through Kylo's intended badass Vader image to the real petulant man-child inside. There was no respect there at all. No one would have treated Vader like that without getting the life choked out of them.

 

[-griffy-]

Not sure if this was discussed yet. Verdict on the reports of Ford returning for VIII?

Flashback sequence at most? No way he survived that.

I guess there were two parts of it. Some casting website that Hidalgo said is bs. But also a comment by Kathleen Kennedy.

Isn't the Kathleen Kennedy comment just her, before the premiere, on stage with most of the cast saying essentially "This cast will be back for VIII." She's not going to say "Well, everyone except Harrison Ford, because Han Solo dies in the movie" in that context. I don't think that can be taken as a confirmation.

 

[Ragnorok64]

The only way I can explain R2 waking up is having something to do with Rey and MAYBE her connection to Luke. Other than that I have nothing.

It's been posted in these thread before at some point, but the official answer is that it took R2 from the time that BB-8 first asked him about the other part of the map, until when he woke up to actually come out of low power mode.

Guess it was like he was in a coma with knowledge of what was happening around him but too a while to wake up.

Yeah...

 

[excelsiorlef]

Actually that would be the best thing that could happen for her. Otherwise she'll be another Luke, and as we all know, Luke sucks.

Luke really does suck. He's not that smart, he let his plan to rescue Han fail, he didn't complete his training with Yoda and he let one of his apprentice, his own nephew to go dark side on his watch. He's so pure and naïve, a perfect light side jedi. Unlike Rey.

So then maybe she learns to balance the force within her. That'd be hell of a lot more interesting than killing Finn, and turning Rey dark so that the murderer of Han Solo can be the big hero.

 

[Digital-Hero]

You can't ignore it. She's the one of two significant proactive female protagonist this series has ever had (and frankly Leia was a damse in distress for most of the OT). She's the first signigicant female force user/Jedi in the movie series.

There's a million ways she can go that are interesting that don't result in her going evil so Ren can become Ben Solo hero.

If find it hard to redeem Kylo. Even if he does good, he will be arrested by the Republic for countless murders. And if he was good, he'll submit to that arrest.

 

[The Adder]

I really noticed this on my 3rd watch. Her swings were wild. Very reminiscent of Luke in Jedi.

No, she was swinging it like half a staff (a weapon she knew how to use) instead of a sword (a weapon she doesn't)

 

[Madchad]

Got to see it at last tonight can get back to being on the internet in peace. Got there without any spoilers thank god.

Went with my parents i loved it and so did they. Seemed like it shaved years off my old man during the film lol.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

It would be much more interesting

Exactly, Anakin didn't have to try to live with what he did as Vader, he got a sacrificial death free pass to good guy land. Ben Solo having to live with killing his own father and actively working to redeem himself is a much more interesting arc.

 

[Starsailor]

Isn't the Kathleen Kennedy comment just her, before the premiere, on stage with most of the cast saying essentially "This cast will be back for VIII." She's not going to say "Well, everyone except Harrison Ford, because Han Solo dies in the movie" in that context. I don't think that can be taken as a confirmation.

+1000

 

[The Librarian]

Actually that would be the best thing that could happen for her. Otherwise she'll be another Luke, and as we all know, Luke sucks.

I honestly can't fathom the mental gymnastics one has to go through to say that the *only* way for Rey to be interesting is if she is seduced by the dark side.

 

[Ether_Snake]

So then maybe she learns to balance the force within her. That'd be hell of a lot more interesting than killing Finn, and turning Rey dark so that the murderer of Han Solo can be the big hero.

Don't confuse everything .

Rey could fall to the dark side as in try to get more power to beat Kylo/Snoke. Doesn't mean she kills Finn, doesn't mean she becomes another Vader, etc. Just that she doesn't follow what Luke says, she goes rogue after killing Ben or whatever. Ultimately can still come back level-headed.

 

[ProfessorLobo]

Why did Luke need a treasure map and why did he split it up. I feel like this conflict central to the movie should have been explained more.

 

[Grover Cleveland]

30 years. And his redemption was death.

Why are so many people obsessed with Rey going evil. There is absolutely nothing in the movie that points to that.

They're absolutely there, as has been pointed out above.

I'm inclined to agree with those that say that Disney/Lucasfilm (and particularly Kathleen Kennedy) are not going to send their first female Jedi protagonist down the path of Darth before her.

I see a lot of people arguing that Rey going evil would add complexity and depth to her character, which I don't necessarily disagree with, but at the same time, I think the dueling parallel journeys of Kylo being seduced by the light and Rey being seduced by the dark are interesting enough on their own, even if they stay with the same moral alignments throughout the trilogy. You can introduce trials and challenges into Rey's story without needing a turn/redemption arc.

Anyone else read Ben stopping that blaster bolt as a sign of weakness, real or imagined.

Vader gets shot at, he raises a hand and bounces the shots away.

Ben gets shot at and he has to stop it cold. At first that seems like an impressive feat, but on further examination, doesn't that seem like a huge waste of effort.

It gave me the sense, upon second viewing, that he either lacked the power to so easily deflect Poe's shot, or at the very least, lacked the confidence to try.

Nah that was absolutely a show of power. Not only to Poe (look at his face as he's dragged by it, he's stupefied by it), but to the audience as well. That was the first time we've seen something like that put to film. It shows us that Kylo as a force user means business.

On the other hand, you might be right that that projection of power might be him compensating for a lack of confidence (he has to prove that he's the ultimate badass to himself just as much as he does to everyone else), but I don't think that's because he's afraid of not being able to deflect the bolt normally.

Watch how casually he deflected shots from Rey's blaster in the forest.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Why did Luke need a treasure map and why did he split it up. I feel like this conflict central to the movie should have been explained more.

Luke didn't make any map.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Don't confuse everything .

Rey could fall to the dark side as in try to get more power to beat Kylo/Snoke. Doesn't mean she kills Finn, doesn't mean she becomes another Vader, etc. Just that she doesn't follow what Luke says, she goes rogue after killing Ben or whatever. Ultimately can still come back level-headed.

I have no problems with a struggle but the person I was mostly engaging with wants her to be the villain so Ben can be the hero. That is what I'm mostly engaging with.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Why? How on earth would that be more interesting. It'd make TFA absolutely pointless. It'd make Han's death cheap and worthless.

I think it's much more interesting then the good and bad guys stay the same with no complex motivations. Along with seeing what would make someone like Kylo Ren turn.
In what way would it make TFA "absolutely pointless"? Han's death is already like that for me.

 

[18-Volt]

If find it hard to redeem Kylo. Even if he does good, he will be arrested by the Republic for countless murders. And if he was good, he'll submit to that arrest.

His mother believes in him and feels the conflict in him. Also he's been manipulated by Snoke, which explains his "conflict". When Snoke is no more, it'll be much easier to change Ren's personality.

I see a lot of people arguing that Rey going evil would add complexity and depth to her character, which I don't necessarily disagree with, but at the same time, I think the dueling parallel journeys of Kylo being seduced by the light and Rey being seduced by the dark are interesting enough on their own, even if they stay with the same moral alignments throughout the trilogy. You can introduce trials and challenges into Rey's story without needing a turn/redemption arc.

I don't think turning to dark side and becoming evil is the same thing. Rey probably will be more like Ahsoka/Qui Gonn instead of Anakin. Anakin had a stupid character development: I need to save my wife. Oh, she's dead, I should kill everybody. Rey's development will be much interesting because there is no other jedi to compare her "darkness". With (hopefully) First Order and Republic is no more, it'll be best if Rey takes no sides.

 

[The Adder]

Nah that was absolutely a show of power. Not only to Poe (look at his face as he's dragged by it, he's stupefied by it), but to the audience as well. That was the first time we've seen something like that put to film. It shows us that Kylo as a force user means business.

On the other hand, you might be right that that projection of power might be him compensating for a lack of confidence (he has to prove that he's the ultimate badass to himself just as much as he does to everyone else), but I don't think that's because he's afraid of not being able to deflect the bolt normally.

Watch how casually he deflected shots from Rey's blaster in the forest.

He deflected those with his saber. I'm comparing what Ben did against Poe to what Vader did in Cloud city. Han shot at him and he bounced the blaster bolts with his hand and raw force.

 

[ProfessorLobo]

Can't link to it now, but the writers have said it was actually because, after BB8 bumped into R2, it took him a while to wake up.

Yeah...

Haha

 

[Brakke]

No, she was swinging it like half a staff (a weapon she knew how to use) instead of a sword (a weapon she doesn't)

Uhh how? What moves were "staffly"?

 

[Boke1879]

So then maybe she learns to balance the force within her. That'd be hell of a lot more interesting than killing Finn, and turning Rey dark so that the murderer of Han Solo can be the big hero.

Just because people entertain the idea of Rey turning dark doesn't mean Ren has to turn light. It's certainly not what I'm thinking when I entertain that idea. She doesn't even have to kill Finn.

Like it was posted earlier in the thread. She was tempted by the darkside in that last fight. Although it's not made completely clear in the film you can make an argument for it. Why does she have to kill Finn?

We have no idea about her past or what information that could be revealed to her that could make her flip the fuck out.

Most people are looking at this because it would be an interesting turn of events storywise. People aren't thinking about it ruining her as the morally strong character or female role model. Rey is still that. Rey would still be the lead and most important character in this trilogy no matter where they take her story.

I have no issues with what the writers want to do with her story. If they don't want her to turn dark. Fine by me. I just don't want the reason that they never explore something like to be simply because it may ruin her image as a moral role model for young women.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I think it's much more interesting then the good and bad guys stay the same with no complex motivations. Along with seeing what would make someone like Kylo Ren turn.
In what way would it make TFA "absolutely pointless"? Han's death is already like that for me.

So basically an arbitrary flip of alignment that is frankly out of character for both is better than characters growing in various other ways, fighting off temptation (be it from light or dark) while fundamentally staying true to their characters.

The first way is cheap and easy. The second has a hell of a lot more potential.

Fuck it you could even have both come to find balancing light and dark within but still have Rey be the hero and Ren the villain. Coming to a sort of conclusion that it is who you are not what side of the force you allign with that makes you a hero or villain.

There's an infinite number of stories that are more interesting than Rey goes villain Ren goes hero.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

So basically an arbitrary flip of alignment that is frankly out of character for both is better than characters growing in various other ways, fighting off temptation (be it from light or dark) while fundamentally staying true to their characters.

The first way is cheap and easy. The second has a hell of a lot more potential.

Fuck it you could even have both come to find balancing light and dark within but still have Rey be the hero and Ren the villain. Coming to a sort of conclusion that it is who you are not what side of the force you allign with that makes you a hero or villain.

There's an infinite number of stories that are more interesting than Rey goes villain Ren goes hero.

Ok.

 

[Ragnorok64]

Can't link to it now, but the writers have said it was actually because, after BB8 bumped into R2, it took him a while to wake up.

Yeah...

It's been posted in these thread before at some point, but the official answer is that it took R2 from the time that BB-8 first asked him about the other part of the map, until when he woke up to actually come out of low power mode.

Guess it was like he was in a coma with knowledge of what was happening around him but too a while to wake up.

Yeah...

Wow, our replies ended up being way too similar.

 

[Boke1879]

So basically an arbitrary flip of alignment that is frankly out of character for both is better than characters growing in various other ways, fighting off temptation (be it from light or dark) while fundamentally staying true to their characters.

The first way is cheap and easy. The second has a hell of a lot more potential.

Fuck it you could even have both come to find balancing light and dark within but still have Rey be the hero and Ren the villain. Coming to a sort of conclusion that it is who you are not what side of the force you allign with that makes you a hero or villain.

There's an infinite number of stories that are more interesting than Rey goes villain Ren goes hero.

many of us aren't even saying Ren will turn light. I find it hard he will after having killed his father. That said. Me saying Rey turning to the dark side doesn't make her a villain either.

It could literally just be her trying to explore that side of the force. The Jedi have always rejected the darkside and don't allow any of it in their teachings. Rey could be the character to bust this whole line of teaching on it's head. By eventually learning to master both sides of the force and using the positives for each for her own use.

 

[Yoshichan]

Help me point out how hurt Kylo really was in the battle against Rey.

- Killed his father, resulting in even more of an emotional mess
- Clean shot on the waist by a bowcaster (metallic bolts)
- Tired because of the consecutive fights (against Finn, for example)

More?

 

[FlyinJ]

R2 waking up is a mystery? It is explained at the reveal- R2 is in power saving mode and it takes it a while to power on. It was booting that whole time.

The coincidence of it finally finishing booting when it did is a bit goofy, but I don't see how there is confusion as to why it happened.

 

[Boke1879]

Help me point out how hurt Kylo really was in the battle against Rey.

- Killed his father, resulting in even more of an emotional mess
- Clean shot on the waist by a bowcaster (metallic bolts)
- Tired because of the consecutive fights (against Finn, for example)

More?

I'd almost say vastly underestimating her. It didn't seem like his intent was to kill. Mentions teaching her. Also Snoke did tell him to bring Rey to him.

 

[Boke1879]

Wow, our replies ended up being way too similar.

R2 waking up is a mystery? It is explained at the reveal- R2 is in power saving mode and it takes it a while to power on. It was booting that whole time.

The coincidence of it finally finishing booting when it did is a bit goofy, but I don't see how there is confusion as to why it happened.

If that's what they were going for they could have made a passing mention of that. But I'm kinda glad they made it ambiguous though. Let us speculate about that. In the grand scheme of things. It's not really important. Just convenient.

 

[Yoshichan]

I'd almost say vastly underestimating her. It didn't seem like his intent was to kill. Mentions teaching her. Also Snoke did tell him to bring Rey to him.

Excellent point! More?

 

[CreepingFear]

Help me point out how hurt Kylo really was in the battle against Rey.

- Killed his father, resulting in even more of an emotional mess
- Clean shot on the waist by a bowcaster (metallic bolts)
- Tired because of the consecutive fights (against Finn, for example)

More?

Stop trying to bring logic to this thread when you can just use MARY FUCKING SUE!

 

[The Adder]

Uhh how? What moves were "staffly"?

Don't have the fuilm in front of me to rereference, but I recall lots of heavy swings from above, whereas the swings from below were quicker and less forceful (the only reason Ben's still alive) and very few from the side.

In addition, there were many pokes forward after being blocked (one of which she caught Ben in the shoulder with) which isn't something often seen in sword to sword combat, but is a staple with staves (to bust your opponent's face open).

 

[Ether_Snake]

many of us aren't even saying Ren will turn light. I find it hard he will after having killed his father. That said. Me saying Rey turning to the dark side doesn't make her a villain either.

It could literally just be her trying to explore that side of the force. The Jedi have always rejected the darkside and don't allow any of it in their teachings. Rey could be the character to bust this whole line of teaching on it's head. By eventually learning to master both sides of the force and using the positives for each for her own use.

Which could even be linked to the idea of the force being balanced. What if Luke found out in the first jedi temple that back some time ago, there was no notion of "I'm a jedi, I'm a sith", just people who used the force. There might not even have been any concept of light and dark as opposites where one can use only one or the other.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

How about Ren not being the true series big bad, gets used and disgarded by Snoke, picks himself back up and ends up being the not quite fully redeemable Dark Jedi antihero...the Spike to Rey's Buffy.

 

[Yoshichan]

Stop trying to bring logic to this thread when you can just use MARY FUCKING SUE!

I won't touch that thread with a twenty feet pole. I'm here to defend my man Kylo, while being able to accept Rey as the new heroine.

 

[Toxi]

It would be much more interesting

That's like saying Darth Vader being a column of three Jawas standing on each others' shoulders would be more interesting.

 

[Boke1879]

How about Ren not being the true series big bad, gets used and disgarded by Snoke, picks himself back up and ends up being the not quite fully redeemable Dark Jedi antihero...the Spike to Rey's Buffy.

I go back to Bobby Roberts speculation. I really think at some point Ren will kill Snoke in order to fully darkside. I think in episode 8 he'll be a much more formidable opponent and by 9 he'll be the true series bad guy.

 

[excelsiorlef]

many of us aren't even saying Ren will turn light. I find it hard he will after having killed his father. That said. Me saying Rey turning to the dark side doesn't make her a villain either.

It could literally just be her trying to explore that side of the force. The Jedi have always rejected the darkside and don't allow any of it in their teachings. Rey could be the character to bust this whole line of teaching on it's head. By eventually learning to master both sides of the force and using the positives for each for her own use.

I have no problem with her blending but going full dark has implications with all due respect the dark side basically makes you into among other things a child killer of some sort. Anakin did it, Palpatine ordered it, Kylo ordered it.

There's a distinct correlation with going dark side and going supremely evil. That's kinda how Star Wars works.

Flirtation is fine, even tapping in is fine
Blending/balancing both within is even better but going full dark side is synonymous with going evil.

 

[18-Volt]

How about Ren not being the true series big bad, gets used and disgarded by Snoke, picks himself back up and ends up being the not quite fully redeemable Dark Jedi antihero...the Spike to Rey's Buffy.

Best possible story. We know he's not the sole apprentice of Snoke, there are more "Knights" under him. I expect another Count Dooku in Epsiode VIII to take the "big bad" spot from Kylo.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Help me point out how hurt Kylo really was in the battle against Rey.

- Killed his father, resulting in even more of an emotional mess
- Clean shot on the waist by a bowcaster (metallic bolts)
- Tired because of the consecutive fights (against Finn, for example)

More?

Main fighting arm nailed with a lightsaber blow from Finn.