[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #2) - One Thumb Up

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18-Volt said:
I expect another Count Dooku in Epsiode VIII to take the "big bad" spot from Kylo.
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In a series that has stopped juuuuuuust short of having everyone involved actually say out loud "we're not going to do what they did on those films," why would you expect they'd adopt one of the worst conventions of that trilogy's storytelling?

Snoke getting mopped by Kylo as he ascends to Supreme Leader plays way better to me. It's something we never got in either of the two previous trilogies: A main bad guy who actually becomes The Main Bad Guy.
 
excelsiorlef said:
Main fighting arm nailed with a lightsaber blow from Finn.
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Excellent shit!

Anything else?

- Killed his father, resulting in even more of an emotional mess
- Clean shot on the waist by a bowcaster (metallic bolts)
- Tired because of the consecutive fights (against Finn, for example)
- Right (main) fighting arm nailed with a lightsaber blow from Finn
- Underestimating Rey and not going in with the purpose of killing her (he mentions teaching her - also, Snoke wants him to bring her to him)
 
Yoshichan said:
Excellent shit!

Anything else?

- Killed his father, resulting in even more of an emotional mess
- Clean shot on the waist by a bowcaster (metallic bolts)
- Tired because of the consecutive fights (against Finn, for example)
- Right (main) fighting arm nailed with a lightsaber blow from Finn
- Underestimating Rey and not going in with the purpose of killing her (he mentions teaching her - also, Snoke wants him to bring her to him)
Click to expand...
The more I think about the duel, the less criticism I have with it. Literally every single factor was against Kylo Ren. The only issue was him stupidly confronting Rey and Finn when he was greviously wounded physically and emotionally. Arrogance, I guess, but..
 
FlyinJ said:
R2 waking up is a mystery? It is explained at the reveal- R2 is in power saving mode and it takes it a while to power on. It was booting that whole time.

The coincidence of it finally finishing booting when it did is a bit goofy, but I don't see how there is confusion as to why it happened.
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It's silly to have a world where the decades-dormant Falcon boots up and gets airborne like nothing but R2 takes however many hours to boot up. Plus we've seen "low power mode" in A New Hope. Threepio takes a nap while Obi-Wan explains about light sabers and then he reboots at a command.

BB-8 hitting his head against R2 was adorable, I don't know why they didn't do that scene as precipitating the wake up. There's no reason to delay R2's wake-up, you know?

The Adder said:
Don't have the fuilm in front of me to rereference, but I recall lots of heavy swings from above, whereas the swings from below were quicker and less forceful (the only reason Ben's still alive) and very few from the side.

In addition, there were many pokes forward after being blocked (one of which she caught Ben in the shoulder with) which isn't something often seen in sword to sword combat, but is a staple with staves (to bust your opponent's face open).
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Oh yeah she does do several thrusts. I guess I was thinking of those more as "[sword] stabs" than "[pole] pokes". Damn now I'm going to have to go again, I kind of like this.
 
Meowster said:
The more I think about the duel, the less criticism I have with it. Literally every single factor was against Kylo Ren. The only issue was him stupidly confronting Rey and Finn when he was greviously wounded physically and emotionally. Arrogance, I guess, but..
Click to expand...

To be fair, he took the force sensitive out of the fight immediately and didn't know they were armed.
 
Yoshichan said:
Excellent shit!

Anything else?

- Killed his father, resulting in even more of an emotional mess
- Clean shot on the waist by a bowcaster (metallic bolts)
- Tired because of the consecutive fights (against Finn, for example)
- Right (main) fighting arm nailed with a lightsaber blow from Finn
- Underestimating Rey and not going in with the purpose of killing her (he mentions teaching her - also, Snoke wants him to bring her to him)
Click to expand...

I've always felt the complaints towards him were silly. I guess some people want cookie cutter, I'm ard, meat head, unrealistic villains, but I'm glad JJ went for something a bit more grounded and layered.
 
Bobby Roberts said:
In a series that has stopped juuuuuuust short of having everyone involved actually say out loud "we're not going to do what they did on those films," why would you expect they'd adopt one of the worst conventions of that trilogy's storytelling?

Snoke getting mopped by Kylo as he ascends to Supreme Leader plays way better to me. It's something we never got in either of the two previous trilogies: A main bad guy who actually becomes The Main Bad Guy.
Click to expand...
So much this.

I think there's a reason Snoke was a nothing hologram in this film . He's a red herring. He was so ill defined in this film and I can't imagine that was not intentional (like not even hints). He has to be the "Emperor" for Ren to usurp.

Plus what a story there. Because Ren would do what Vader didn't and still not be the Vader he wants to be.

Ren needs to be the main villain, his rise to power is fascinating and interesting any reversal on that makes him so much less interesting.
 
Just saw it again in 3d. As my first 3d movie I'm kinda disappointed. Most of the scenes where's 3d was used look like they're against a green screen. The lightsaber battles and tie fighter battles looked much better in 3d though. Beyond that, I don't think Rey is Luke's daughter anymore. After that second viewing I'm starting to think Kylo and her were the top two students or at she might have been at the bottom and Kylo didn't or couldn't kill her when he massacred everyone else.
 
I don't think Snoke is even supposed to be powerful. He is referred to as wise, he was designed with the idea of looking very old, frail and damaged. I think his position is a result of knowledge, not strength. His knights are there to protect him. He might be able to fire lightning bolts and such, but I don't expect him to be able to put up much of a fight.

That's why I think he's going to look for someone to replace Kylo after finishing his training. He'll make Kylo stronger to serve some purpose (maybe kill Luke), only to try to have him taken down by another afterwards.
 
Bobby Roberts said:
Snoke getting mopped by Kylo as he ascends to Supreme Leader plays way better to me. It's something we never got in either of the two previous trilogies: A main bad guy who actually becomes The Main Bad Guy.
Click to expand...

Yea we didn't have anything like that before but it paves the way for another cliche: The Main Bad Guy vs The Main Good Girl climax duel, which would mean nothing as Rey and Kylo have no personal connection. They have already had a duel, an encore would be absolutely meaningless if there isn't more to that.

Plus, Kylo turning into complete darkness would render Leia complete useless as she's there for having his conflict to go even deeper. He will never be the "Ultimate bad guy" as long as his -force sensitive- mother lives.
 
jwk94 said:
Just saw it again in 3d. As my first 3d movie I'm kinda disappointed. Most of the scenes where's 3d was used look like they're against a green screen. The lightsaber battles and tie fighter battles looked much better in 3d though. Beyond that, I don't think Rey is Luke's daughter anymore. After that second viewing I'm starting to think Kylo and her were the top two students or at she might have been at the bottom and Kylo didn't or couldn't kill her when he massacred everyone else.
Click to expand...

This was on the whole a very pedestrian example of 3D cinema. I wouldn't take it as a benchmark for the technology.

Although that opening shot with the star destroyer moving into the screen has AMAZING depth.
 
18-Volt said:
Yea we didn't have anything like that before but it paves the way for another cliche: The Main Bad Guy vs The Main Good Girl
Click to expand...

So?

Also how do you know Ren & Rey won't have a connection by the time Episode 9 rolls around? She fucked him up once already. What's he gonna do in response? What history might or might not be revealed? How would his becoming the main bad guy render Leia useless? Leia's DEATH is going to render Leia useless. The idea that two of the three main characters fighting each other for the stakes of freedom/peace in the entire Galaxy being "absolutely meaningless" doesn't even make any sense, really.

There's like FIVE hours of trilogy left.

excelsiorlef said:
Plus what a story there. Because Ren would do what Vader didn't and still not be the Vader he wants to be.

Ren needs to be the main villain, his rise to power is fascinating and interesting any reversal on that makes him so much less interesting.
Click to expand...

Yuuuuuuuuup.
 
Ether_Snake said:
I don't think Snoke is even supposed to be powerful. He is referred to as wise, he was designed with the idea of looking very old, frail and damaged. I think his position is a result of knowledge, not strength. His knights are there to protect him. He might be able to fire lightning bolts and such, but I don't expect him to be able to put up much of a fight.

That's why I think he's going to look for someone to replace Kylo after finishing his training. He'll make Kylo stronger to serve some purpose, only to try to have him taken down by another.
Click to expand...

I think fundamentally who we got in TFA are going to be the focus for the trilogy. Much like who we got in the OT and PT were the focus (Emperor was mentioned in ANH).

I can't imagine some new big bad is going to emerge.
 
Yoshichan said:
Excellent shit!

Anything else?

- Killed his father, resulting in even more of an emotional mess
- Clean shot on the waist by a bowcaster (metallic bolts)
- Tired because of the consecutive fights (against Finn, for example)
- Right (main) fighting arm nailed with a lightsaber blow from Finn
- Underestimating Rey and not going in with the purpose of killing her (he mentions teaching her - also, Snoke wants him to bring her to him)
Click to expand...

This project is sort of beside the point, no? It gets messy fast. Rey is presumably also distressed about Han; Rey is freshly-concussed; Rey could be tired from spelunking around the sheer cliff inside the base. Somehow these things affect Kylo but not Rey? When we add in that it's Rey's first time with a lightsaber it's tough to go down some checklist.

If you're trying to marshal points for an argument I don't know that these are necessarily persuasive. It's easy to acknowledge that Kylo goes into the fight hobbled and also be disappointed that that's the direction the script decided to take. And we can take two frames on it: "it sucks that Kylo lost like that" or "it sucks that Rey had to win like that[, why didn't they let her win it clean?]". I think it kinda sucks that Kylo jobs out both because it does Kylo dirty and because it does Rey dirty.
 
Saw it for a second time today with a friend who hadn't seen it yet. He loved it. BB-8's thumbs up once again got a huge pop in the theater, which was completely full by the way. Man, that duel at the end is so, so GOOD.
 
excelsiorlef said:
I think fundamentally who we got in TFA are going to be the focus for the trilogy. Much like who we got in the OT and PT were the focus (Emperor was mentioned in ANH).

I can't imagine some new big bad is going to emerge.
Click to expand...

Oh I'm not saying there will be a new bad guy, just that Snoke and Kylo will kill one or the other. Snoke could use Rey to kill Kylo, that kind of stuff. I do think it makes more sense for Kylo to stay till the end than Snoke. I don't think Kylo could die in VIII and then have us left with the bad CG dude, unless Rey replaces Kylo.
 
18-Volt said:
Yea we didn't have anything like that before but it paves the way for another cliche: The Main Bad Guy vs The Main Good Girl climax duel, which would mean nothing as Rey and Kylo have no personal connection. They have already had a duel, an encore would be absolutely meaningless if there isn't more to that.

Plus, Kylo turning into complete darkness would render Leia complete useless as she's there for having his conflict to go even deeper. He will never be the "Ultimate bad guy" as long as his -force sensitive- mother lives.
Click to expand...

Even if Rey and Kylo have no previous connection they do now. She mopped his shit up and he's not as strong as he thought he was. Ren has a personal grudge with Rey and Finn. Because of them. All his plans go to shit.

That said I do think there is more to the overall struggle. Luke went to the first Jedi temple to find information I believe.
 
Brakke said:
I think it kinda sucks that Kylo jobs out both because it does Kylo dirty and because it does Rey dirty.
Click to expand...

He doesn't "job out."

The insistence on using professional wrestling terminology and standards to judge Star Wars by is one of the more irritating aspects of these threads. This isn't Vince McMahon's Star Wars.
 
Boke1879 said:
Even if Rey and Kylo have no previous connection they do now. She mopped his shit up and he's not as strong as he thought he was. Ren has a personal grudge with Rey and Finn. Because of them. All his plans go to shit.

That said I do think there is more to the overall struggle. Luke went to the first Jedi temple to find information I believe.
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His name is not Ren x)
 
Brakke said:
Uhh how? What moves were "staffly"?
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The thrusts followed by overhead strikes are quarterstaff techniques.

Yoshichan said:
Help me point out how hurt Kylo really was in the battle against Rey.

- Killed his father, resulting in even more of an emotional mess
- Clean shot on the waist by a bowcaster (metallic bolts)
- Tired because of the consecutive fights (against Finn, for example)

More?
Click to expand...

Ordered to bring her in alive.
 
BlastProcessing said:
Do we know any other names of the Knights of Ren? Where are they?
Click to expand...

We don't know them but Snoke say that Kylo evolve to the Knight of Ren graduation. So i don't think that name "Kylo Ren" is a coincidence.

Leia also said that the dark side choose many form (sith, empire...) so maybe now the title "Ren" will be in it.
 
Hopefully we get the origin story of the original master of the Knights of Ren

aEszifkl.jpg
 
Watch Luke in VIII grab Rey's staff.

Luke: You made that?
Rey: No, I found it years ago on Jakku.
Luke picks at one end with a tool, a cap pops out.
Rey: Hey don't break it!
Luke picks at the other end, another cap pops out.
Luke: You found it uh? You're sure it didn't find you?
Luke holds the staff in front of himself with both hands
*phswwwwwwww*
Two red light saber beams come out of both ends.
 
Meowster said:
The more I think about the duel, the less criticism I have with it. Literally every single factor was against Kylo Ren. The only issue was him stupidly confronting Rey and Finn when he was greviously wounded physically and emotionally. Arrogance, I guess, but..
Click to expand...
It wasn't arrogance. He was on orders from Snoke to capture Rey. Then once he saw (or realized from his force mind-meld with Rey), that they had his grandfather's lightsaber....
 
Bobby Roberts said:
So?

Also how do you know Ren & Rey won't have a connection by the time Episode 9 rolls around? She fucked him up once already? What's he gonna do in response? What history might or might not be revealed? How would his becoming the main bad guy render Leia useless? Leia's DEATH is going to render Leia useless. The idea that two of the three main characters fighting each other for the stakes of freedom/peace in the entire Galaxy being "absolutely meaningless" doesn't even make any sense, really.

There's like FIVE hours of trilogy left.
Click to expand...

There might be a connection between them but I don't think it would matter as much as connection between Rey & Luke or Rey & Finn. If Luke is really Rey's father as everything (flashbacks of Luke when touching lightsaber, leaving her on a planet to "protect" her) points, Rey & Kylo would be cousins. The rage that was present during duel of Anakin and Obi-Wan in Ep 3 and Sidious and Vader in Ep 6 wouldn't be there... Unless Kylo hurts Rey really bad in future episodes. Like, killing Finn?

I still think additional characters would do good. They didn't say that next two episodes have exact same cast and no more and we know that Kylo isn't the only Knight of Ren, he is just their leader. They will take the stage at some point.
 
Bobby Roberts said:
In a series that has stopped juuuuuuust short of having everyone involved actually say out loud "we're not going to do what they did on those films," why would you expect they'd adopt one of the worst conventions of that trilogy's storytelling?

Snoke getting mopped by Kylo as he ascends to Supreme Leader plays way better to me. It's something we never got in either of the two previous trilogies: A main bad guy who actually becomes The Main Bad Guy.
Click to expand...

Except Kylo has done nothing to earn it. In TFA he started out as an amazing bad guy, taking no prisoners. But as soon as he took his helmet off IMO he devolved into another anakin - petulant youth with strong powers but no real foundation to it.

I think that will be fair enough, as he needs to be malleable to have a redemption arc. But the second half of TFA weakened him as a 'big bad' character IMO
 
The Librarian said:
It wasn't arrogance. He was on orders from Snoke to capture Rey. Then once he saw (or realized from his force mind-meld with Rey), that they had his grandfather's lightsaber....
Click to expand...

There was a hint of arrogance. Him telling her she needed a teacher and that he could teach her the ways of the force. As if he's in some position to do that with his own training incomplete.
 
I wish Han didn't smoosh Leia's head when they hugged.

And speaking of that, their joint scenes fell flat for me. I couldn't imagine their relationship once it became an actual relationship, maybe that's on me but the movie didn't seem to help, and I'm sorry but I have extra trouble drawing the link from Princess Leia to General Leia. It just doesn't seem like the same character and I don't think Fischer does the best job nowadays. Am I the only one?
 
Majine said:
I bet Leia dies in VIII and Luke in IX.
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Leia won't die. Luke possibly, especially if he's gone full Ben and thinks he'll be more powerful if cut down. i wouldnt mind if she did die though. I think Kylo killing her in TFA would have been stronger than killing Han because then Han would be hunting him down.

Just leave R2D2 alone. You can kill everyone else now (I used to want to leave chewie but now that Han is dead I don't think it would have such an impact if chewie died now)
 
18-Volt said:
Best possible story. We know he's not the sole apprentice of Snoke, there are more "Knights" under him. I expect another Count Dooku in Epsiode VIII to take the "big bad" spot from Kylo.
Click to expand...

The novelization hints that part of his force talents is extreme empathy, he's effectively an Emo-Jedi. I think all of that inferred suffering and internal conflict would be a waste if he turns into the true big bad. It's better if he gets dropped by Snoke, exactly like Han predicted, and that's what wakes him up.

There is a nice dark/light nature to the Skywalkers, Rey getting to wear the white hat, while Kylo rides shotgun as anti-hero black sheep in third movie would be a potentially awesome dynamic. I also don't think it would step on Finn's growth as a character or status as co-lead, and the Finn/Kylo interactions would be fun.
 
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