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[Brakke]

"it could take five minutes" is pretty limp, man. C'mon. "He just got his ass whipped pretty badly, and our star-destroying solar system killer is going to blow up - let's get him in there for that five minute Jazzercise course that turns him into uber-Vader."

There's more to these villains than just boilerplate super-competency and cold efficiency. They're sloppy, overeager, ambitious maniacs. They're radicals (they're fuckin radicals kill people burn shit fuck school), and there's more to them than just "I got everything planned to the nth degree"

They're chaotic.

Lol I know I was being flip about that. But really, what his "completion" entails is totally undefined. If we wanna say Ren isn't up to his potential -- and I think we should say that -- then we shouldn't put stock by Snoke's assessment of his "training's" "completeness". We should say things like "well Kylo is sloppy and over-ambitious, he's maybe never been really tested against another Force user". Or "Kylo has a real weak clarity of purpose, he seems to have desires to follow in Vader's steps but he waffles on the fortitude to commit".

"Training" is such a weird way to capture those ideas. "Training" connotes practice and drills. Kylo's got tons of practice Force choking fools and Force-freezing them at least.

 

[ginger ninja]

There, there... it's okay. We still have Leia. Everybody loves Leia.

That's the worst part, if you gonna kill a main character for impact, you should have fucking killed chewie, leia even Luke.Han was and is one of the essential things about star wars.

I swear that even when Rey was flying to meet Luke and chewie kept looking at her, I really wished chewie would full of his mask and it would turn out to be Han inside. But the moment Han walked on that bridge, I knew what was gonna happen. Fuck you JJ Abraham.

Someone give the tinfoil theories how Han is still alive so I can go to sleep.

 

[watershed]

Yes, obviously the Resistance is there to fight the First Order. But it's really weird to talk about this as a "resistance" while presenting the First Order as not the dominant power in the galaxy. Why does the Republic not care about the people who seem to have them outgunned? Where are the Republic's version of Star Destroyers? The movie seems to need the Empire to still be alive and kicking and for the Republic to have created a space for Luke to train Jedi and feel unnecessary enough to go Yoda, for Han and Leia to raise a kid, and for Stormtroopers to not control what I assume is Coruscant but which is at least no Tatooine.

It's definitely poorly explained in the movie in that it isn't explained at all. Basically, the First Order is the cobbled remnants of the Empire. A long time ago the First Order and the New Republic signed an armistice type agreement to cease hostilities and leave each other alone. Starkiller base was built in secret, somewhere far off and hidden. It's supposed to be a weapon that uses technology never seen before. We see it used for the first and only time in the movie. The New Republic is peaceful and only has a small fleet. But there are some within the New Republic who do fear the First Order and are suspicious of them. Those people fund The Resistance. Why are they called the First Order and the Resistance? No idea.

 

[excelsiorlef]

What gets me is that this resistance, clearly built a top the remains of the rebels from the OT, are still a rag tag bunch. Rag tag for like 70 years total dating back to the end of the PT? After taking down the entire empire, you'd expect them to advance at least somewhat up the totem pole.

All of them could have if they were willing to drop their warfaring and become politicians.

 

[FZZ]

http://io9.gizmodo.com/kylo-ren-is-everything-that-anakin-skywalker-should-hav-1749606647

Those guys got it, you don't.

I don't need to explain.

Anakin =/= Vader

 

[LookAtMeGo]

What gets me is that this resistance, clearly built a top the remains of the rebels from the OT, are still a rag tag bunch. Rag tag for like 70 years total dating back to the end of the PT? After taking down the entire empire, you'd expect them to advance at least somewhat up the totem pole.

Well they did pretty much get their asses handed to them in the OT. Almost lost the war. Aside from Vader killing Palpatine, they got smooshed.

Its like Germany after WW1. How did they get so powerful between the end of WW1 and the begining of WW2? Why did it take the rest of the world to stand up to them?

The First Order is a war machine.


And no, your comparison to Kylo being thrown in this movie like Maul was is wack as fuck.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Please, pretending that Kylo Ren is a brilliant, troubled character is laughable. The guy has the angst of a linkin park album. He's paperthin evil simply for the sake of the movie having a big bad.

Darth Vader was ruined in the PT. But in the OT he was precisely what needed to be. Kylo Ren was just a second rate retread, simply because Star Wars needs a clearly defined Darth Vader. Much in the same way Phantom Menace had to shove Darth Maul into the picture for no real reason.



That he was seduced to the dark side because he imagines himself talking to "grammpa" simply for the sake of giving the film an antagonist.

This is like the opposite of why he;s there. The whole Star Wars needs a Darth Vader stand in is completely subverted in TFA, Kylo isn't Darth Vader and that's the fucking point.

LOL your analysis is so dead set on dismissing everything as meaningless and poor writing that it's almost not worth discussing it.

Anakin =/= Vader

Uhh ok what does that have to do with the article?

 

[Einchy]

That he was seduced to the dark side because he imagines himself talking to "grammpa" simply for the sake of giving the film an antagonist.

If you want non-wussy dark side, go look at the KOTOR games.

We've no idea why he went to the dark side, it's one of the film's mysterious.

So the only reason he's a wuss is because of your misconceptions of the movie?

 

[Brakke]

What about Kylo Ren makes him a wuss? Dude murdered a whole village at the start of the movie, killed billions when he blew up multiple planets while giving no fucks and then he murdered his own dad.

Yes and no. He only ordered the villagers killed after Phasma asked him. He was walking away, as if he hadn't even considered that murdering them was helpful or necessary or fun. He is complicit in Starkiller's firing but he doesn't order it and he didn't build it. Right after he kills Han and Han strokes his chin there's some regret there.

 

[FZZ]

Uhh ok what does that have to do with the article?

The original post said wussier Vader not wussier Anakin.

Kylo is much more of a reserved and less evil character than Vader ever was. Then again not many characters are as evil as Vader, but my point still stands. The article is irrelevant to the initial post made, because they are discussing Vader NOT Anakin which is the main talking point of the io9 article.

 

[Einchy]

Yes and no. He only ordered the villagers killed after Phasma asked him. He was walking away, as if he hadn't even considered that murdering them was helpful or necessary or fun. He is complicit in Starkiller's firing but he doesn't order it and he didn't build it. Right after he kills Han and Han strokes his chin there's some regret there.

Those were in comparison to Vader.

Like, how do those things make him a wuss but somehow make Vader this total badass?

 

[Krejlooc]

This is like the opposite of why he;s there. The whole Star Wars needs a Darth Vader stand in is completely subverted in TFA, Kylo isn't Darth Vader and that's the fucking point.

LOL your analysis is so dead set on dismissing everything as meaningless and poor writing that it's almost not worth discussing it.

They use him as a direct analog for vader in every capacity. That you've managed to over think "he's a shitty vader" into being "he's a subverted vader" is tripe. He is the movies Vader. And a poor one at that. An intentionally shitty character is still a shitty character.

And just because you love the new angsty vader doesn't do anything to dispel my notion that the movie is framed entirely around planned callbacks and nods and winks. Literally all the dramatic beats in the movie are call backs to things or events from the OT.

Take away the glee star wars fans feel about seeing characters return to the screen, and there's little substance to the film. If this movie wasn't star wars, and all the characters and space ships were just generic stand ins, do you expect people would be praising this the way it is?

 

[ginger ninja]

So I just read how Ford hates playing Han solo now. This pain is getting worse all the time.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

They use him as a direct analog for vader in every capacity. That you've managed to over think "he's a shitty vader" into being "he's a subverted vader" is tripe. He is the movies Vader. And a poor one at that. An intentionally shitty character is still a shitty character.

And just because you love the new angsty vader doesn't do anything to dispel my notion that the movie is framed entirely around planned callbacks and nods and winks. Literally all the dramatic beats in the movie are call backs to things or events from the OT.

Take away the glee star wars fans feel about seeing characters return to the screen, and there's little substance to the film. If this movie wasn't star wars, and all the characters and space ships were just generic stand ins, do you expect people would be praising this the way it is?

Thats some weak argument dude. Its the 7th Star Wars movie. If it wasnt a Star Wars movie it would have been called something else and would have been a completely different movie.

 

[excelsiorlef]

They use him as a direct analog for vader in every capacity. That you've managed to over think "he's a shitty vader" into being "he's a subverted vader" is tripe. He is the movies Vader. And a poor one at that. An intentionally shitty character is still a shitty character.

And just because you love the new angsty vader doesn't do anything to dispel my notion that the movie is framed entirely around planned callbacks and nods and winks. Literally all the dramatic beats in the movie are call backs to things or events from the OT.

Take away the glee star wars fans feel about seeing characters return to the screen, and there's little substance to the film. If this movie wasn't star wars, and all the characters and space ships were just generic stand ins, do you expect people would be praising this the way it is?

I mean he is a subverted trope that's completely undeniable, you can dislike it but that's exactly what he is. I;m not over thinking it they literally show it on screen repeatedly, dude fucks up all the time, Hux is a better leader than him, again all by design.

I mean you can't say pretend it's not Star Wars and everyone was generic and then say that's proof it's a bad movie.

 

[Einchy]

They use him as a direct analog for vader in every capacity. That you've managed to over think "he's a shitty vader" into being "he's a subverted vader" is tripe. He is the movies Vader. And a poor one at that. An intentionally shitty character is still a shitty character.

And just because you love the new angsty vader doesn't do anything to dispel my notion that the movie is framed entirely around planned callbacks and nods and winks. Literally all the dramatic beats in the movie are call backs to things or events from the OT.

Take away the glee star wars fans feel about seeing characters return to the screen, and there's little substance to the film. If this movie wasn't star wars, and all the characters and space ships were just generic stand ins, do you expect people would be praising this the way it is?

*looks at the success of Star Trek 09 when 99% percent of people watching it had never seen the 1960s show*

Why yes, I do think people would have liked this movie regardless of it being Star Wars or not.

[edit]

Look people said above, that's a dumb argument anyway.

"Would this movie still be good if you removed all the parts that make people like it?"

 

[Bobby Roberts]

They use him as a direct analog for vader in every capacity.

Nah, man. They call direct comparisons to Vader constantly and constantly show a) how he's falling short and b) how desperate he is to close that gap.

There is a scene in his bedroom where he has a conversation with the burnt mask of his dead grandpa. That's not a "direct analog" for anything but a disturbed individual flailing in his aspirations to be more than he is.

People seem to land at varying points along the line of acceptance at the idea such a villain (or villains, really: Hux and Snoke both seem to be fronting pretty hard in their own ways as well) could exist in Star Wars. Some accept this new angle, this new run at villainy, and some are inclined to reject it because it doesn't slot into their ideas of what "Cool" Star Wars villains need to act and look like.

 

[WanderingWind]

If this movie wasn't star wars, and all the characters and space ships were just generic stand ins, do you expect people would be praising this the way it is?

Because Star Wars is a sacred cow, right?

 

[Krejlooc]

Thats some weak argument dude. Its the 7th Star Wars movie. If it wasnt a Star Wars movie it would have been called something else and would have been a completely different movie.

I mean he is a subverted trope that's completely undeniable, you can dislike it but that's exactly what he is. I;m not over thinking it they literally show it on screen repeatedly, dude fucks up all the time, Hux is a better leader than him, again all by design.

I mean you can't say pretend it's not Star Wars and everyone was generic and then say that's proof it's a bad movie.

Well, when the crux of your enjoyment of a film comes from emotional call backs, don't be surprised when people who don't share any emotional attachment to the source material aren't moved.

*looks at the success of Star Trek 09 when 99% percent of people watching it had never seen the 1960s show*

Why yes, I do think people would have liked this movie regardless of it being Star Wars or not.

Star Trek 09 is still filled with superficial call backs. Like are you going to tell me 99% of people had no idea who spock or kirk was? They are character archetypes by now, and fixtures of pop culture.

And I hated Star Trek 09, too.

Because Star Wars is a sacred cow, right?

Yes? One of the criticisms of movies like The Phantom Menace was their use of non-classic ships. "nobody cares about the naboo thing, I want the X-wing!"

 

[excelsiorlef]

The original post said wussier Vader not wussier Anakin.

Kylo is much more of a reserved and less evil character than Vader ever was. Then again not many characters are as evil as Vader, but my point still stands. The article is irrelevant to the initial post made, because they are discussing Vader NOT Anakin which is the main talking point of the io9 article.

Yeah but Kylo =/= Vader so again what's your point.

Kylo is closer to a well acted/written just gone Dark Anakin than a Vader and that's the point. o the article is a perfect answer to anyone claiming he's just a wussier Vader because no involved creating that movie ever intended for anyone to think he's supposed to be a Vader stand-in.

 

[Brakke]

Those were in comparison to Vader.

Like, how do those things make him a wuss but somehow make Vader this total badass?

What? You attributed a bunch of things to Kylo (especially wiping out the village) that the movie kind of undermines the savageness of.

Of course Vader is more "badass". Vader never takes his mask off until his dying breath. Vader basically never hesitates.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Well, when the crux of your enjoyment of a film comes from emotional call backs

Is it really though? You think that word of mouth going on, that box-office success that's unprecedented in ways even Avatar hasn't achieved, you think that's entirely due to "emotional callbacks?"

There are people connecting with this film who have never seen a Star Wars before, and even MORE people who have, but didn't give that much of a shit. You think it's solely nostalgia that's making this thing work for them?

Which is funny because your argument against the movie isn't so much that it's relying on nostalgia, it's that it isn't correctly aping the parts of the old movies YOU LIKED.

 

[JediLink]

Every time I read this thread it makes me mad. It's just a nonstop back and forth of "____ sucks" --> "No it doesn't" --> "Yes it does" and of course there's nothing you can do because neither side is right or wrong. I want to join in and say "No, ____ is brilliant and you're just dumb" but I stop myself because I know how pointless it is.

...

Damnit I can't help it. Kylo Ren is brilliant and you're just dumb.

 

[WanderingWind]

Vader had 3 movies. Ren has had one. How about we stop treating "one movie out of a planned trilogy can't possible answer every question or flesh out every aspect of a large cast" as some sort of flaw?

Yes? One of the criticisms of movies like The Phantom Menace was their use of non-classic ships. "nobody cares about the naboo thing, I want the X-wing!"

"Yes, it's a sacred cow, except for the past three movies." That's not how that works. Star Wars pre-sequels fit your narrative, not now. The shine got thoroughly and fully knocked off the series since. Few would be praising TFA if they stunk like the prequels. The franchise has been a laughing stock (critically and fan-reaction wise; we all know it prints money regardless) for more than a decade.

 

[Krejlooc]

Is it really though? You think that word of mouth going on, that box-office success that's unprecedented in ways even Avatar hasn't achieved, you think that's entirely due to "emotional callbacks?"

Yes? Like Star Wars isn't some global phenomenon?

There are people connecting with this film who have never seen a Star Wars before, and even MORE people who have, but didn't give that much of a shit. You think it's solely nostalgia that's making this thing work for them?

Which is funny because your argument against the movie isn't so much that it's relying on nostalgia, it's that it isn't correctly aping the parts of the old movies YOU LIKED.

My favorite piece of star wars is KoToR II, which is the most unlike anything in the entire series. I'm not a huge fan or anything of the OT, which is why I have such a problem with what I just saw. I felt like it was the OT repackaged into a single, less effective movie.

 

[FZZ]

Yeah but Kylo =/= Vader so again what's your point.

Kylo is closer to a well acted/written just gone Dark Anakin than a Vader and that's the point. o the article is a perfect answer to anyone claiming he's just a wussier Vader because no involved creating that movie ever intended for anyone to think he's supposed to be a Vader stand-in.

I'm not going to argue the original poster's point, because I do not agree with it. My response was only made to tell the other poster that the original post was talking about Vader and not Anakin.

Again they still made a clear indication of comparing and contrasting Vader and Kylo, as opposed to Anakin and Kylo. I am not saying Kylo = Vader nor did I every imply that.

I simply said Vader =/= Anakin.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Well, when the crux of your enjoyment of a film comes from emotional call backs, don't be surprised when people who don't share any emotional attachment to the source material aren't moved.
.

Dude the cruzx of my enjoyment came from 4 things, the 4 new characters.

Kylo was so flawed and fucked up and the exact the opposite of a Vader stand in (which is what I had expected, and was ready to dislike based on proomo material) that I found him incredibly engaging and the first honestly interesting villain the series had had. He wasn't cool and that's what was awesome.

Rey was superbly acted by Daisy and had an interesting story of her own, same goes for Finn and Poe, all three of them had amazing chemistry (well Finn and Rey and Poe and FInn, Rey and Poe didn't reallt interact). None of them were emotional callbacks.

So nah I think I'm cool with liking the new series on it's own merits. This is the first Star Wars film that really truly spoke to me and connect with me. I mean fuck we have a kickass, well-acted female Jedi was our lead.

 

[Krejlooc]

Dude the cruzx of my enjoyment came from 4 things, the 4 new characters.

Kylo was so flawed and fucked up and the exact the opposite of a Vader stand in (which is what I had expected, and was ready to dislike based on proomo material) that I found him incredibly engaging and the first honestly interesting villain the series had had. He wasn't cool and that's what was awesome.

Rey was superbly acted by Daisy and had an interesting story of her own, same goes for Finn and Poe, all three of them had amazing chemistry (well Finn and Rey and Poe and FInn, Rey and Poe didn't reallt interact). None of them were emotional callbacks.

So nah I think I'm cool with liking the new series on it's own merits. This is the first Star Wars film that really truly spoke to me and connect with me. I mean fuck we have a kickass, well-acted female Jedi was our lead.

Finn was the single best thing about the movie, precisely because he wasn't an obvious call back to any other character. Rey is female luke skywalker. Kylo is angsty darth vader. Poe... didn't really have much of a character or screen time, take him or leave him.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I'm not going to argue the original poster's point, because I do not agree with it. My response was only made to tell the other poster that the original post was talking about Vader and not Anakin.

Again they still made a clear indication of comparing and contrasting Vader and Kylo, as opposed to Anakin and Kylo. I am not saying Kylo = Vader nor did I every imply that.

I simply said Vader =/= Anakin.

But again so what, the point of the article was to say why Ren works as a character. It's an absolutely valid reason to post the article.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Yes? Like Star Wars isn't some global phenomenon?

Actually, it isn't that global a phenomenon. It's MASSIVE domestic. Not as much internationally.

My favorite piece of star wars is KoToR II

Oh, so you're a GIANT fuckin' outlier, then.

 

[FZZ]

But again so what, the point of the article was to say why Ren works as a character. It's an absolutely valid reason to post the article.

Ahh then I didn't understand what the post I responded to was going for.

I thought they were trying to post how Kylo is a better Anakin which I thought was obvious, but completely irrelevant to the comparison between Vader and Kylo which is much more nuanced and complex.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Finn was the single best thing about the movie, precisely because he wasn't an obvious call back to any other character. Rey is female luke skywalker. Kylo is angsty darth vader. Poe... didn't really have much of a character or screen time, take him or leave him.

See it shows you cant understand me, because even if she was femaleLuke (and she's a completely different person with a completely different background) even just being the female Luke is a big fucking deal for me.

A woman is the lead of a fucking STar Wars film, and her performance was great, that's fucking huge. And Finn is the male lead, a black man being the co-lead of a Star Wars film and his performance was great. This is such a huge deal all on it's own.

Ahh then I didn't understand what the post I responded to was going for.

I thought they were trying to post how Kylo is a better Anakin which I thought was obvious, but completely irrelevant to the comparison between Vader and Kylo which is much more nuanced and complex.

Yeah nah the argument was that the original poster was arguing that Ren was just a wussy Vader and thus a bad character and the response was a) that's not even what he was trying to be and here's a reason why he's actually a great character,

 

[LookAtMeGo]

Well, when the crux of your enjoyment of a film comes from emotional call backs, don't be surprised when people who don't share any emotional attachment to the source material aren't moved.

Of course fans of Star Wars, for the most part, are going to like the callbacks and stuff. There is a lot of history here, Star Wars is huge. JJ needed to do that for the fans. He brought back the original characters from one of the biggest movies of all time 30 years later. Of course there is going to be some fan service.

I hate to break it to you but its not just fans of Star Wars that are enjoying the movie. Its got some good acting, good characters, humor and action sequences. He had to reintroduce all the old characters, introduce the new ones, set up some stuff that happened in between, set up for the sequels and tell a decent story on its own. All while making long time fans happy and bringing enough new stuff to pass on the torch to a new generation. Thats no easy feat to accomplish in a little over 2 hours. Its not a perfect movie by any means but the franchise has been handled well and has had new life givin to it.

 

[Krejlooc]

See it shows you cant understand me, because even if she was femaleLuke (and she's a completely different person with a completely different background) even just being the female Luke is a big fucking deal for me.

A woman is the lead of a fucking STar Wars film, and her performance was great, that's fucking huge. And Finn is the male lead, a black man being the co-lead of a Star Wars film and his performance was great. This is such a huge deal all on it's own.

I don't care that she's female. Her gender isn't why I enjoy or don't enjoy the movie. As a character, she's someone I already traveled with. Were Finn a black woman instead of a black man, but the same exact character, I would like her just as much.

Sure, it's great that females in star wars aren't being regulated to literal prostitutes anymore... but the series had great female protagonists before. Meetra Surik from KoToR II is a great example of a female protagonist who isn't female Luke Skywalker. And the series had great black supporting characters before as well - Lando and Mace Windu being the obvious examples. I enjoyed Finn more than both, though.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I hate to break it to you but its not just fans of Star Wars that are enjoying the movie. Its got some good acting, good characters, humor and action sequences. He had to reintroduce all the old characters, introduce the new ones, set up some stuff that happened in between, set up for the sequels and tell a decent story on its own. All while making long time fans happy and bringing enough new stuff to pass on the torch to a new generation. Thats no easy feat to accomplish in a little over 2 hours. Its not a perfect movie by any means but the franchise has been handled well and has had new life givin to it.

Can you imagine if he hadn't cut that 20 minutes out of the film that contained all the political connective tissue that's confusing people about the climax and stealing some of that impact?

 

[BocoDragon]

Is it really though? You think that word of mouth going on, that box-office success that's unprecedented in ways even Avatar hasn't achieved, you think that's entirely due to "emotional callbacks?"

There are people connecting with this film who have never seen a Star Wars before, and even MORE people who have, but didn't give that much of a shit. You think it's solely nostalgia that's making this thing work for them?

Which is funny because your argument against the movie isn't so much that it's relying on nostalgia, it's that it isn't correctly aping the parts of the old movies YOU LIKED.

Box office is utterly irrelevant when discussing the content of this film. The prequels were all box office powerhouses and they are widely acknowledged to be critically dubious.

I really do suggest that people dispense with any idea that the quality of this movie is so good that it's driving a significant % of ticket sales. It's wrong.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Meetra Surik from KoToR II is a great example of a female protagonist who isn't female Luke Skywalker.

So basically, this is going to become a discussion where the point isn't so much "TFA is a disappointing movie" but "KOTOR II is awesome Star Wars."

Nah. It isn't.

The prequels were all box office powerhouses

Not to this extent. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the movie is automatically good because it makes a ton of money. But there is something to be said for the level at which it's connecting with people, and the sheer NUMBER of people it's connecting with means that arguing pre-existing familiarity is the sole reason for that enjoyment is a bad argument, as there's more people who don't really give a fuck about Star Wars than do.

I don't think the idea that word of mouth is contributing to the film's success is out of bounds at all.

 

[Freyjadour]

The Force Awakens wasn't as good as the video game guys, pack it up go home.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I don't care that she's female. Her gender isn't why I enjoy or don't enjoy the movie. As a character, she's someone I already traveled with. Were Finn a black woman instead of a black man, but the same exact character, I would like her just as much.

Sure, it's great that females in star wars aren't being regulated to literal prostitutes anymore... but the series had great female protagonists before. Meetra Surik from KoToR II is a great example of a female protagonist who isn't female Luke Skywalker. And the series had great black supporting characters before as well - Lando and Mace Windu being the obvious examples. I enjoyed Finn more than both, though.

Ok good for you? I really don't give a shit that you didn't like the movie (with the exception that your arguments are weak and frankly you've enjoyed insulting those who did), I was telling you why I enjoyed it since you accused me of liking it only for emotional callbacks.

 

[Krejlooc]

So basically, this is going to become a discussion where the point isn't so much "TFA is a disappointing movie" but "KOTOR II is awesome Star Wars."

Nah. It isn't.

KoToR II is hardly the epitome of sci fi space opera.

 

[Krejlooc]

Ok good for you? I really don't give a shit that you didn't like the movie (with the exception that your arguments are weak and frankly you've enjoyed insulting those who did), I was telling you why I enjoyed it since you accused me of liking it only for emotional callbacks.

You don't give a shit yet you've freaked the fuck out for two pages because I didn't enjoy the movie.

And your whole "Female Luke is a HUGE deal because of blah blah blah" really supports your claim that emotional call backs aren't why you enjoyed the movie duder.

 

[Aselith]

Those were in comparison to Vader.

Like, how do those things make him a wuss but somehow make Vader this total badass?

Vader didn't lose except ROTJ and only then because he was going easy on Luke. At best, you could run from him but you sure as fuck weren't winning a fight.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

KoToR II is hardly the epitome of sci fi space opera.

I didn't say "epitome of sci-fi space opera" I said "Awesome Star Wars."

And it isn't that.

You're the one offering it up as a measuring stick.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

Can you imagine if he hadn't cut that 20 minutes out of the film that contained all the political connective tissue that's confusing people about the climax and stealing some of that impact?

I would have loved if it was 20 min longer... You think we might see a directors cut/extended edition?

 

[Krejlooc]

I didn't say "epitome of sci-fi space opera" I said "Awesome Star Wars."

And it isn't that.

Cool opinion, dude. Well argued and reasoned.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Box office is utterly irrelevant when discussing the content of this film. The prequels were all box office powerhouses and they are widely acknowledged to be critically dubious.

I really do suggest that people dispense with any idea that the quality of this movie is so good that it's driving a significant % of ticket sales. It's wrong.

Well I mean it's also a critical success too soooooo.....

Not to this extent. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the movie is automatically good because it makes a ton of money. But there is something to be said for the level at which it's connecting with people, and the sheer NUMBER of people it's connecting with means that arguing pre-existing familiarity is the sole reason for that enjoyment is a bad argument, as there's more people who don't really give a fuck about Star Wars than do.

Despite being a fan of the series, this is the first one that truly connected with me and made me want to see it again right away.

It's just actually a good, fun movie with engaging characters, and look I didn't expect it to be, I hated Star Trek 09, I had low expectations going in and it's ended up being my favorite, largely because they made it about new characters instead of the OT 3

 

[Freyjadour]

Vader didn't lose except ROTJ and only then because he was going easy on Luke. At best, you could run from him but you sure as fuck weren't winning a fight.

Obi Wan gives up, Vader does lose the space battle, Luke is untrained and unstable in Empire.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I would have loved if it was 30 min longer... You think we might see a directors cut/extended edition?

I don't think we're getting a Special Edition. At least not officially. I bet we'll get deleted scenes, and I bet we'll get people willing to try and gin up SFX for whatever those deleted scenes need to be fixed, and someone somewhere will try reinserting them into the film proper.

But Abrams doesn't appear to do Special Editions at all. So I wouldn't hold my breath for a blu-ray version that reincorporates stuff we know was cut out.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

Word. Thats too bad.

 

[excelsiorlef]

You don't give a shit yet you've freaked the fuck out for two pages because I didn't enjoy the movie.

And your whole "Female Luke is a HUGE deal because of blah blah blah" really supports your claim that emotional call backs aren't why you enjoyed the movie duder.

I said I don't give a shit that you didn;t like the movie, I do give a shit that your arguments were cheap and you decided it was best to insult everyone who liked it and tell us all why we liked it.

Also like I said Rey isn't Luke, I just said that if she was I'd still think she was rad because frankly a female lead that was well performed in a major film like this is a huge deal to me.

Really think you're grasping at staraws to prove to me that I only like the movie for the callbacks. Rey isn't a fucking callback. Neither was Poe and Ren is a complete subversion of a callback.