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[Brakke]

Yo I love KOTOR II but calling out "Meetra Surik" (fucking who is that, I played "Roscoe Gax") as a female protagonist is weak. I didn't even know she was "canon" female until like six years after I played that game, in the run-up to The Old Republic.

Vader didn't lose except ROTJ and only then because he was going easy on Luke. At best, you could run from him but you sure as fuck weren't winning a fight.

Vader loses in New Hope breh. Han blasts his ass spinning off into space.

Nobody can resist the Power Of Space Friendship.

 

[BocoDragon]

Not to this extent. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the movie is automatically good because it makes a ton of money. But there is something to be said for the level at which it's connecting with people, and the sheer NUMBER of people it's connecting with means that arguing pre-existing familiarity is the sole reason for that enjoyment is a bad argument, as there's more people who don't really give a fuck about Star Wars than do.

There was an early good critical buzz that has augmented it's box office to a small extent.

I do believe this critical excitement is a fleeting first week phenomenon of critics and geeks being relieved that it's decent, not a lasting indication of its top quality.

 

[Aselith]

Obi Wan gives up, Vader does lose the space battle, Luke is untrained and unstable in Empire.

Obiwan was gonna los anyways though and Rey is untrained in TFA also and Luke was more trained in ROTJ and Vader was still playing with his ass.

Vader loses in New Hope breh. Han blasts his ass spinning off into space.

Nobody can resist the Power Of Space Friendship.

Different kinda fight and Vader was whooping ass until Han stealthed and backstabbed. Hard to beat a guaranteed crit when distracted.

 

[Freyjadour]

Obiwan was gonna los anyways though and Rey is untrained in TFA also and Luke was more trained in ROTJ and Vader was still playing with his ass.



Different kinda fight and Vader was whooping ass until Han stealthed and backstabbed. Hard to beat a guaranteed crit when distracted.

He refuses to fight. Ben chopped his legs off once, he could have done it again.

 

[Brakke]

Vader was still playing with [Luke's] ass.

This is a very unfortunate phrase for a father-son encounter lmfao. How deep does the Star Wars incest hole go?

Different kinda fight and Vader was whooping ass until Han stealthed and backstabbed. Hard to beat a guaranteed crit when distracted.

Put an asterisk on there if you want but the scoreboard still says L.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

There was an early good critical buzz that has augmented it's box office to a small extent.

critical buzz didn't have shit to do with that opening weekend, and I say that as one of the print critics contributing a pre-release review. No opening weekend north of say, 50-60 million (realistically, 30-40 mil) can be seriously attributed to critical buzz. It was marketing that got people into the theater for that opening weekend.

Besides which, most critics (and longtime fans) are critical (imagine) of the film's obvious shortcomings, including thematic repetitiveness and rushed pacing/editing. They're positive reviews, but not GLOWING.

We're long past the days of critical reception being a measurable contributor to success on this level. It's primarily word-of-mouth and marketing at that point. Marketing's obviously done it's job. But word-of-mouth amongst regular moviegoers seems to be positive in a way that suggests the film is connecting beyond basic nostalgia bathing.

 

[excelsiorlef]

There was an early good critical buzz that has augmented it's box office to a small extent.

I do believe this critical excitement is a fleeting first week phenomenon of critics and geeks being relieved that it's decent, not a lasting indication of its top quality.

So your argument is that people many whom were extremely ready to hate this movie because it was coming off the PT and frankly seemed necessary at the time it was announced didn't actually think the movie was good but were just happy it didn't suck?

That's a stretch. Is it not possible that critics and audience alike just happened to have enjoyed it and thought it was a good movie.

 

[Slime]

KOTOR II is an incomplete, self-serious, fanwanky-to-the-extreme, pseudo-intellectual mess. I'll never get why a tryhard deconstruction of a fairy tale is seen as the holy grail of Star Wars storytelling by so many.

 

[BouncyFrag]

So whats the story with how Anakin's lightsaber shows up in that unattended, unlocked box in some random cellar?

 

[Aselith]

Put an asterisk on there if you want but the scoreboard still says L.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHH6YVHGh90 - 1

https://youtu.be/Lbjru5CQIW4?t=67 - 1

https://youtu.be/8kpHK4YIwY4?t=115 - 1

3 - 1 Vader

He refuses to fight. Ben chopped his legs off once, he could have done it again.

As Brakke said, Ben still takes the L

 

[Bobby Roberts]

So whats the story with how Anakin's lightsaber shows up in that unattended, unlocked box in some random cellar?

Someone on Cloud City found it in the installation's bowels.

From there it went on some weird journey through the hands of various collectors and fanatics until Maz Kanata wound up with it.

 

[excelsiorlef]

So whats the story with how Anakin's lightsaber shows up in that unattended, unlocked box in some random cellar?

It's a story for another time.

 

[WanderingWind]

KOTOR II is an incomplete, self-serious, fanwanky-to-the-extreme, pseudo-intellectual mess. I'll never get why a tryhard deconstruction of a fairy tale is seen as the holy grail of Star Wars storytelling by so many.

Nostalgia and relief that it wasn't as bad as KOTOR.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Yo I love KOTOR II but calling out "Meetra Surik" (fucking who is that, I played "Roscoe Gax") as a female protagonist is weak. I didn't even know she was "canon" female until like six years after I played that game, in the run-up to The Old Republic.



Vader loses in New Hope breh. Han blasts his ass spinning off into space.

Nobody can resist the Power Of Space Friendship.

I'll try spinning that's a good trick

 

[BocoDragon]

critical buzz didn't have shit to do with that opening weekend, and I say that as one of the print critics contributing a pre-release review. No opening weekend north of say, 60 million can be seriously attributed to critical buzz. It was marketing that got people into the theater for that opening weekend.

You're agreeing with me. I said it augmented the box office to a minuscule extent.

SO your argument is that people many whom were extremely ready to hate this movie because it was coming of the PT and frankly seemed necessary at the time it was announced didn't actually like the movie but were just happy it didn't suck?

Saying "didn't actually like the movie" is a wrong way to look at what I'm saying. More that the fact that a movie that looks like OT Star Wars and doesn't suck as much as PT Star Wars might dazzle people in the short term... But it has no bearing on how this film will be regarded in the long term, after the honeymoon period has worn off.

It could be a Bioshock Infinite.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Obiwan was gonna los anyways though and Rey is untrained in TFA also and Luke was more trained in ROTJ and Vader was still playing with his ass.

I don't know about that actually. Obi Wan has been shown to be a better straight duelist than Anakin/Vader. As far as I can remember, the only time Obi Wan loses duels in the movies at least (I say that as I haven't seen all of TCW) is when his opponent utilizes strong Force tactics during the duel. Which isn't characteristic of OT Vader and didn't seem to make a difference in RotS.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

You're agreeing with me. I said it augmented the box office to a minuscule extent.

"Small" != "miniscule"

I'm not agreeing with you. You disagreed with me. Specifically, with the idea that the film's outlandish popularity might signal an ability for people to connect to its contents outside of basic nostalgia.

The whole "The critics are fronting/fooling themselves" angle was yours, as a response to what I was arguing. Which doesn't even matter, as my argument didn't depend on critical reception at all, but viewer word-of-mouth.

 

[Aselith]

I don't know about that actually. Obi Wan has been shown to be a better straight duelist than Anakin/Vader. As far as I can remember, the only time Obi Wan loses duels in the movies at least (I say that as I haven't seen all of TCW) is when his opponent utilizes strong Force tactics during the duel. Which isn't characteristic of OT Vader and didn't seem to make a difference in RotS.

No high ground exploits in Death Stars.

 

[BlastProcessing]

You're agreeing with me. I said it augmented the box office to a minuscule extent.



Saying "didn't actually like the movie" is a wrong way to look at what I'm saying. More that the fact that a movie that looks like OT Star Wars and doesn't suck as much as PT Star Wars might dazzle people in the short term... But it has no bearing on how this film will be regarded in the long term, after the honeymoon period has worn off.

It could be a Bioshock Infinite.

It's still Star Wars. Even the Prequels have persisted through adversity due to their general Star Warsiness. I get your general point that people might cool on the film, but it ain't going the way of Bioshock Infinite.

 

[WanderingWind]

Bioshock Infinite is still very well-beloved. Most relooks at the game outside this board still call it a "flawed masterpiece." Nobody has said that about The Phantom Menace. Well, nobody that isn't Lucas.

 

[excelsiorlef]

You're agreeing with me. I said it augmented the box office to a minuscule extent.



Saying "didn't actually like the movie" is a wrong way to look at what I'm saying. More that the fact that a movie that looks like OT Star Wars and doesn't suck as much as PT Star Wars might dazzle people in the short term... But it has no bearing on how this film will be regarded in the long term, after the honeymoon period has worn off.

It could be a Bioshock Infinite.

I reworded and the reality is its got amazing word of mouth too as people are flocking to it on off days.

This is trouncing all winter records, and that was by no means a guaranteed thing.

It is so unfathomable to yo that people have found connections to it and that it might actually be a good movie?

 

[BocoDragon]

I'm not agreeing with you. You disagreed with me. Specifically, with the idea that the film's outlandish popularity might signal an ability for people to connect to its contents outside of basic nostalgia.

If you insist.

Even a middle of the road and surprisingly competent Star Wars would trigger as "great word of mouth", considering that exceedingly mediocre Star Wars films were already box-office darlings and certainly culturally significant.

The implication that TFA is some great untouchable classic beyond reproach that everyone loves is a short term illusion. You'll see.

 

[brandonh83]

The implication that TFA is some great untouchable classic beyond reproach that everyone loves is a short term illusion. You'll see.

Who is saying that? It's been out a week.

 

[Brakke]

KOTOR II is an incomplete, self-serious, fanwanky-to-the-extreme, pseudo-intellectual mess. I'll never get why a tryhard deconstruction of a fairy tale is seen as the holy grail of Star Wars storytelling by so many.

"Incomplete, self-serious,
pseudo-intellectual mess" succinctly describes a phase that a whole lot of people go through at some point in their lives. If that phase and that game hit together, go figure it sticks in a craw or two.

I'll try spinning that's a good trick

HOLY. SHIT. I never even thought of that wowowow.

 

[BouncyFrag]

I don't know about that actually. Obi Wan has been shown to be a better straight duelist than Anakin/Vader. As far as I can remember, the only time Obi Wan loses duels in the movies at least (I say that as I haven't seen all of TCW) is when his opponent utilizes strong Force tactics during the duel. Which isn't characteristic of OT Vader and didn't seem to make a difference in RotS.

Here's a neat passage from the Revenge of Sith novel with Mace and Obi Wan discussing their respective lightsaber forms:
www.comicvine.com/profile/silver2467/blog/mace-windu-vs-darth-sidious-what-really-happened/77247/

Before Obi-Wan had left Coruscant, Mace Windu had told him of facing Grievous in single combat atop a mag-lev train during the general's daring raid to capture Palpatine. Mace had told him how the computers slaved to Grievous's brain had apparently analyzed even Mace's unconventionally lethal Vaapad and had been able to respond in kind after a single exchange.

"He must have been trained by Count Dooku," Mace had said, "so you can expect Makashi as well; given the number of Jedi he has fought and slain, you must expect that he can attack in any style, or all of them. In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him."

This pronouncement had startled Obi-Wan, and he had protested. After all, the only form in which he was truly even proficient was Soresu, which was the most common lightsaber form in the Jedi Order. Founded upon the basic deflection principles all Padawans were taught—to enable them to protect themselves from blaster bolts—Soresu was very simple, and so restrained and defense-oriented that it was very nearly downright passive.

"But surely, Master Windu," Obi-Wan had said, "you, with the power of Vaapad—or Yoda's mastery of Ataro—"

Mace Windu had almost smiled. "I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light. Master Yoda's Ataro is also an answer to weakness: the limitations of reach and mobility imposed by his stature and his age. But for you? What weakness does Soresu answer?"

Blinking, Obi-Wan had been forced to admit he'd never actually thought of it that way.

 

[brandonh83]

HOLY. SHIT. I never even thought of that wowowow.

It's not worth thinking about

 

[Jest Chillin]

No high ground exploits in Death Stars.

Even without High Ground, Obi Wan had dueled Anakin successfully. It wasn't necessary.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

The implication that TFA is some great untouchable classic beyond reproach that everyone loves is a short term illusion. You'll see.

It's not an illusion that exists, period. Nobody of any note is (much less large groups of people) calling it the bolded at all.

What are you even doing right now.

 

[excelsiorlef]

If you insist.

Even a middle of the road and surprisingly competent Star Wars would trigger as "great word of mouth", considering that exceedingly mediocre Star Wars films were already box-office darlings and certainly culturally significant.

The implication that TFA is some great untouchable classic beyond reproach that everyone loves is a short term illusion. You'll see.

We called it a good movie that connected with people and you accuse us of calling it an untouchable classic.

So I guess the answer is no you can't imagine that people just enjoyed the movie and thought it was good

 

[Brakke]

[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) -

It's not worth thinking about

[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) -

What are you even doing right now.

[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's not how the Force works!

Star Wars Episode VIII Preproduction - I know about waiting.

 

[BocoDragon]

It's not an illusion that exists, period. Nobody's calling it the bolded at all.

What are you even doing right now.

You invoked its word of mouth as evidence against Krejlooc's critical assessment.

I'm saying that this "word of mouth" is useless first week hype-bubble chatter.

 

[Discotheque]

kenobi slices anakin up like he's on a cutting board.

rey wields a lightsaber for the first time and sons ben skywalker-organa-severus-solo.
it's like poetry etc. etc.

i'd kill to hear some ewan mcgregor in her head in the next film.

 

[excelsiorlef]

You invoked its word of mouth as evidence against Krejlooc's critical assessment.

I'm saying that this "word of mouth" is useless first week hype-bubble chatter.

Critical assessment like dismissing everyone who liked the movie as being blinded by emotional callbacks?

That's some deep critical assessment.

I love that you are refusing to admit that people might have you know just liked the fucking movie.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #2) - That's not how the Force works!

I'm doing that one.

Critical assessment like dismissing everyone who liked the movie as being blinded by emotional callbacks?

That's some deep critical assessment.

I love that you are refusing to admit that people might have you know just liked the fucking movie.

Thank you.

 

[MMarston]

Star Wars Episode VIII Preproduction - I know about waiting.

This is a more Rian Johnson specific reference but


Star Wars Episode VIII Production Thread - Preparing for the Rey-nmaker.

 

[Aselith]

Here's a neat passage from the Revenge of Sith novel with Mace and Obi Wan discussing their respective lightsaber forms:
www.comicvine.com/profile/silver2467/blog/mace-windu-vs-darth-sidious-what-really-happened/77247/

Before Obi-Wan had left Coruscant, Mace Windu had told him of facing Grievous in single combat atop a mag-lev train during the general's daring raid to capture Palpatine. Mace had told him how the computers slaved to Grievous's brain had apparently analyzed even Mace's unconventionally lethal Vaapad and had been able to respond in kind after a single exchange.

"He must have been trained by Count Dooku," Mace had said, "so you can expect Makashi as well; given the number of Jedi he has fought and slain, you must expect that he can attack in any style, or all of them. In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him."

This pronouncement had startled Obi-Wan, and he had protested. After all, the only form in which he was truly even proficient was Soresu, which was the most common lightsaber form in the Jedi Order. Founded upon the basic deflection principles all Padawans were taught—to enable them to protect themselves from blaster bolts—Soresu was very simple, and so restrained and defense-oriented that it was very nearly downright passive.

"But surely, Master Windu," Obi-Wan had said, "you, with the power of Vaapad—or Yoda's mastery of Ataro—"

Mace Windu had almost smiled. "I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light. Master Yoda's Ataro is also an answer to weakness: the limitations of reach and mobility imposed by his stature and his age. But for you? What weakness does Soresu answer?"

Blinking, Obi-Wan had been forced to admit he'd never actually thought of it that way.

Whaaaattt? This is some Obi-stan propaganda created by a clear racist. If you're gonna trust Mr. Triumph of the Will for your facts, you go right ahead.

 

[BocoDragon]

Critical assessment like dismissing everyone who liked the movie as being blinded by emotional callbacks?

That's some deep critical assessment.

I love that you are refusing to admit that people might have you know just liked the fucking movie.

Of course people like the movie, and if this is about fighting people who like the movie, no one's having that discussion.

It's that people wanting to discuss the quality of the film have a thin leg to stand on using "word of mouth" as evidence against critical objections. In this first week, it's flimsy evidence. Come back when its a culturally accepted long term truth, and I'll listen (i.e. ESB's reception)

 

[Hellwarden]

The movie is a solid 6 or 7 out of 10 to me.

It's alright, albeit very safe as far as Star Wars is concerned. The story doesn't really travel any new ground, the humor didn't work for me, and Finn and Ren were the only characters I enjoyed.

It's an okay way to waste a weekday night.

 

[Brakke]

This is a more Rian Johnson specific reference but


Star Wars Episode VIII Production Thread - Preparing for the Rey-nmaker.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Of course people like the movie

Again - what are you even doing, then

It's that people wanting to discuss the quality of the film have a thin leg to stand on using "word of mouth" as evidence against critical objections.

It was a super-specific critical objection, from a person who considers KOTOR II to be a prime example of great Star Wars storytelling.

Context matters.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Of course people like the movie, and if this is about fighting people who like the movie, no one's having that discussion.

It's that people wanting to discuss the quality of the film have a thin leg to stand on using "word of mouth" as evidence against critical objections. In this first week, it's flimsy evidence. Come back when its a culturally accepted long term truth, and I'll listen (i.e. ESB's reception)

Word of mouth to show that it's connecting with people and that they are enjoying it.

What the shit are you talking about it being used against critical objections?

BTW not all criticism is valid or intelligent.

 

[BocoDragon]

Again - what are you even doing, then

Rebutting something you specifically said. This "lol what are you doing haha lol" response will only help us to keep going in circles over a very small discussion. If you act like my response is laughable even though it clearly isn't, I'll defend it, and we'll go round and round....

I see how you clarified it in that second point. I can appreciate how you were being specific with Krejlooc. Let's move on.

 

[Feep]

Let's not get this thread closed, shall we? I like reading it!

Star Wars is fun!

:3

Spoiler

Third viewing tomorrow, in IMAX! Woooo!

 

[Bobby Roberts]

"lol what are you doing haha lol"

It's not a lol haha thing. It's just "what are you doing." plain. straight faced.

It's not laughable. It's confusing. Because you're not this ridiculous usually.

We're not gonna go around and around because continued pursuance of this weird line will basically ensure disengagement.

Like now.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Rebutting something you specifically said. This "lol what are you doing haha lol" response will only help us to keep going in circles over a very small discussion. If you act like my response is laughable even though it clearly isn't, I'll defend it, and we'll go round and round....

But the critique was making a specific argument that pointing to strong word of mouth rebuts , people aren't just liking the movie because of emotional callbacks., this is provable by the fact that many who have no attachment to Star Wars are connecting to it and enjoying it, hell fuck a ton of reviews here basically say the calls backs were what they liked least about.

You then turned around and accused us of calling it all tine classic that can't be criticized. Everything can be criticized but if you criticize it poorly people are going to refute your criticism.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Hey, has this been linked in here?

It should be linked in here.

Panel discussion with Scott Feinberg of The Hollywood Reporter, with writers/producers/executives behind The Force Awakens.

This is essentially one of THE best podcasts about the making of the film ever made available.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Here's a neat passage from the Revenge of Sith novel with Mace and Obi Wan discussing their respective lightsaber forms:
www.comicvine.com/profile/silver2467/blog/mace-windu-vs-darth-sidious-what-really-happened/77247/

Before Obi-Wan had left Coruscant, Mace Windu had told him of facing Grievous in single combat atop a mag-lev train during the general's daring raid to capture Palpatine. Mace had told him how the computers slaved to Grievous's brain had apparently analyzed even Mace's unconventionally lethal Vaapad and had been able to respond in kind after a single exchange.

"He must have been trained by Count Dooku," Mace had said, "so you can expect Makashi as well; given the number of Jedi he has fought and slain, you must expect that he can attack in any style, or all of them. In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him."

This pronouncement had startled Obi-Wan, and he had protested. After all, the only form in which he was truly even proficient was Soresu, which was the most common lightsaber form in the Jedi Order. Founded upon the basic deflection principles all Padawans were taught—to enable them to protect themselves from blaster bolts—Soresu was very simple, and so restrained and defense-oriented that it was very nearly downright passive.

"But surely, Master Windu," Obi-Wan had said, "you, with the power of Vaapad—or Yoda's mastery of Ataro—"

Mace Windu had almost smiled. "I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light. Master Yoda's Ataro is also an answer to weakness: the limitations of reach and mobility imposed by his stature and his age. But for you? What weakness does Soresu answer?"

Blinking, Obi-Wan had been forced to admit he'd never actually thought of it that way.

Yup. In combat sports there's a saying. "Styles make fights." While it generally refers to the composition of different styles of fighting resulting in more exciting/interesting match ups.. it's often also used to represent that someone who is more skilled on paper doesn't automatically win a fight when they're facing someone whose style perfectly counters theirs.

 

[PopeReal]

Are people still using the "in time you will see that this movie actually sucks argument"?

I have asked this before, what date am I supposed to mark on my calendar? 5 years? 10?

 

[excelsiorlef]

Are people still using the "in time you will see that this movie actually sucks argument"?

I have asked this before, what date am I supposed to mark on my calendar? 5 years? 10?

Dec 27, 2045

 

[ginger ninja]

I like how people are calling Kylo Ren a wuss, when the biggest implied wuss is Luke who abandoned everything to go into hiding instead of dealing with the problems he helped create.